Ep 162: You Can’t Help People for Free If You Want to Keep Helping with Nicole Liloia

If you’re great at therapy but secretly uneasy about money, marketing, or the sheer logistics of running a practice, this conversation is for you. We sit down with Nicole Liloia, LCSW, to talk about what actually makes a private practice sustainable, not just inspiring on paper. Because “I didn’t get into this for the money” can be true, and it can still lead straight to burnout if your business can’t support your life.

We dig into the practical foundations: how to know your numbers, set an income goal that accounts for taxes, business expenses, health insurance, vacation time, and retirement, and calculate what your average session rate really is (especially if you take multiple insurance plans). We also talk about why so many therapists avoid tracking revenue and time, how ADHD and time blindness can amplify overwork, and why outsourcing tasks like billing can be a smart sustainability move rather than a luxury.

Then we shift into modern therapist marketing strategy. Algorithms change, directories change, and what worked during the pandemic may not work now. Nicole shares how to pivot without chasing every shiny tactic, why you should never rely on a single referral source, and how one small intake form tweak can reveal exactly where your best clients come from. We also make the case for a clear niche and client-word messaging so the people you’re meant to help can immediately recognize themselves.

If you want a therapist business that lasts, listen through, join the conversation, and then subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review so more clinicians can build sustainable private practices without burning out.

This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast

If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.

If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6

Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com

Transcript

Why Therapists Avoid Business

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, Dr. Beth Tremell. I am a psychologist. I love basically all things, words and being intentional. And I'm actually so excited. Um, Nicole, you said yes to coming back because we, as helpers, therapists, psychologists, social workers, licensed marriage family folks, fill in the blank. Any of us helpers, we're like, yeah, we love to help people. We love to grow in the ways in which we're helping people. But then we don't spend quite as much time because, well, there's probably lots of reasons we're probably gonna unpack them. We probably don't spend as much time talking about like the business side and like making sure we get paid and that our work is sustainable because we can't keep helping people for free. And that's what I tell a lot of my graduate students is you know, they'll say things like, Well, I didn't come into counseling for the money. And I'm like, right, but you also are not gonna go to work for free. So we have to have the balance of sustainability. So anyway, listen, before we unpack all of this, because I think this is a conversation that we're all gonna want to hear, Nicole. Um, you are back to share more about some of the, I don't know, businessy side of the profession, the sustainability side of the profession. I don't know. I'm excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

I mean, I always like to say it's like more of the boring side of business, you know. It's definitely the stuff that we avoid because it just doesn't seem that interesting, you know. But it's those small things that really make a big difference in terms of having profit and not overworking and not burning out.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Okay, so tell us a little about you. How you kind of I'm actually curious about this too, because I don't know that we've talked about this or maybe I'm forgetting. How did you sort of get into this kind of side as your niche? So tell us a little bit about you and then tell us something fun that

Nicole’s Path From Burnout

SPEAKER_01 2:12

you got going on.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, so I uh got my master's in social work and you know, did the whole thing that so many of us have done, you know, working in a job for our clinical hours, um, working with an agency, um, getting burnt out by just like the toxic side of that job. And then, you know, I took some time off and traveled and volunteered and eventually, you know, had some different jobs. I would say like I kind of freelanced as a social worker, which is weird because that's that's not super common. And then basically I decided to start a practice, like a part-time private practice, um, initially. And when I started the practice, like I just realized I was like, oh my God, I just like recreated a nine to five because yeah, like I'm gonna have to be in an office all day, which I hadn't done that in a long time because I had different part-time jobs. Like I had a part-time job, I had, you know, contracting jobs where I would go to clients' homes, I could like schedule them when I wanted, like I could see, you know, I could see a bunch of clients in one day or not, you know. So I just felt like I lost a lot of flexibility I had, which is so funny because I know a lot of us say like we go into business for for flexibility and freedom. But, you know, when you need to make sure you're bringing in a certain amount of money, especially like when you're, you know, the only income don't have like support or backup, it's it's definitely tricky, it's definitely scary. And you realize, like, oh, there's not as much flexibility as I thought. So I just really, you know, was starting my practice and I personally like invested in support. So I took some business courses online and I, you know, hired a consultant to help me because I just was like, I will be on Google forever. Like, that's just my personality is like, sure, I could tell other people what to do, but like for me, like I'm gonna be on Google forever and like not, you know, overthink everything and just not be focusing on the right things. And I really wasn't focusing on the right things, you know. I was like, oh, let me, you know, get pretty website and then people will just find it and come. And, you know, like I would avoid the things that were important, like actually like building relationships. And I also worked horribly. I had I had like my whole schedule open so people could just get in whenever, um, versus like being intentional with like when I was scheduling people. So I think that that's just like started to happen to me, and I started to kind of see these things, and also again, so got support because it's just so hard to change on your own sometimes. I know not everybody, but like for me it is. I also have ADHD, so I didn't realize that at the time, but I'm sure that was not helpful either, you know, like just kind of doing the things that were dopamine hits and definitely avoiding a lot of the boarding, the boring things. So I just basically started to do that more and see that more. Um, so that's kind of how I started to like notice these things.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

I love this kind of message, and I know this isn't the main message from you today, but I love the message around private practice and you know what you gain in flexibility in some ways, uh you trade off in terms of pressure.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

And that pressure makes it feel like you have to do more hours, which in turn actually makes you less flexible. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

I mean, and I think in the beginning, like we are doing, like, you know, it there's that excitement, right? Like, I know, like, I was perfectly happy to think about business all the time and like check my phone all the time and check my email all the time to see if I was getting calls or you know, to see if I was getting consults, and it just like made me feel so important. So I think I just like overworked from the start because it's very easy to feel like you know, the more you work, the more successful you're gonna be. But I was just working on random things, there was like no strategy, and I I see that a lot because you know, people come into their business. I see this with my clients all the time, and they're just kind of doing random things, like you know, not things that are necessarily gonna lead to growth, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Um, and it's because you see other people doing it, so you think it must be working, or you're in a Facebook, you know, you're in a Facebook group, you're Googling, you know, and you're just like seeing what people are doing, but you don't really know the behind the scenes of what's working or not, or if it's a good fit for your business, your niche, your location, you know, your goals.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

So when you think about uh how therapists can create and maintain a sustainable practice, would you say that's one of the first things is to figure out what your strategy is or figure out how not to find squirrels?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yeah. For first of all, it's just so hard to like say, like, even find out what your strategy is because like how do we know? We never had a business. We are we are not like given any business training. So I think that makes it very tricky. But I think it really is important to like know your numbers because that dictates so much. And by know your numbers, like know your income goal, like and what you need to make, right? Need and want to make because um I think a lot of times we just kind of choose an income goal or we're like, I want to replace my income from my job. But like that income from a job

Getting Support And Fixing Systems

SPEAKER_00 7:40

is very different from an income in a business because we're also spending a lot of money on business expenses, you know, taxes are different. We don't have health insurance. Uh like some of us don't have health insurance if we're if we're you know not getting it to a partner or something like that. So there are a lot of different expenses. And even if it's just like an approximation, I think it's so important to really know like how much you need to make and then to really like break that down into like, you know, what does that mean? Like how much do I need to charge? Or and again, like a lot of times if if we're taking insurance, that's taken out of our control, right? Yeah, yeah. So a lot of times that's taken out of our control. And, you know, we need to also make sure that we are, you know, if we are not in charge of that, like we still need to be clear on like what is our average session rate, you know, because if we're taking a bunch of different insurance rates, so how many clients do I need to see? And you know, if it's if it's sometimes the numbers are too much, like it's not doable. Like we can't see 30 clients in private practice. Maybe we did that in agencies, it wasn't even ideal there, but like it's definitely not ideal private practice when you're responsible for everything, you know, everything else too. So I think that part is really important, just really knowing your numbers and and knowing like starting to know how to translate that into action steps and and like how am I gonna get these clients?

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Okay, so when you talk with folks about that, right? I mean, I and I am it's how we met, right? I am a part of your Facebook group. How about you just talk about that now while um I'm kind of introducing this kind of talk? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah. So I have a Facebook group called Therapist Entrepreneurs. Everybody is welcome to join. Um, and there's about 30,000 people in there now. Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

That's crazy. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

I know I started in the summer of 2020, so it's just grown a lot. And you know, it's just a space where I do a lot of free trainings, I offer a lot of free resources. I also screen it. So I really do make sure that it takes a lot of time, but I make sure that people are really sharing helpful info. They're not just like spamming you, they're not promoing you. I make sure it's also not a negative like mindset space around money where there's like, you know, there tends to be a lot of judgment from other therapists or other professionals or peers, or, you know, even in your personal life, how many times have we heard you charge like that much just for someone to talk to you? To you know what I mean? So I try to make sure it is like a positive space in terms of, you know, no judgment towards others about their rates, like no lack of mindset. Um, so I do try to do that to help us like just have sustainable business and share like a lot of tips and hacks, you know, just that of what I've been doing and like what my clients have been doing too.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

I actually really love it. I was just telling Nicole that I I have been needing a virtual assistant for forever. And we've talked about that in the group several times. And I can imagine the amount of work it

Know Your Numbers And Rates

SPEAKER_01 10:52

takes to monitor the group, but you do a good job. I have seen numerous times where you have sort of kindly but directly called people out about having a scarcity mindset and how that's not the kind of culture you're trying to create in the group. And I think that's hard to do, Nicole. And I think you've done it well.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah, thank you. I mean, it's definitely tricky. It's obviously not always comfortable to do that. Yeah, but you know, I am from New Jersey, I am a direct person. It's very hard for me for like just misinformation or just like, you know, like to see people like discourage others. Yeah. And and sometimes it's even the opposite way, where I hate when people are saying, like, oh, I want to hire a biller, like, and then people are like, Oh, it's so easy to bill, just do it yourself. Like, yeah, it's like, no, like my brain doesn't work around that. Like, I don't want to spend time doing that. I have other things I want to do, you know. So I I hate that too, like, where it's not always coming off in an encouraging way, but like in a way of like, oh, just easy, like figure it out. And like, no, like if you don't want to bill, you don't want to like if you don't want to do the billing, you don't want to do the billing. Like, maybe you'll want to do it later, that's fine. But like, we don't know what's going on in your life, and like you know, why you might need support around that or like not have the excess time. And good for you if you if you want to take that off your plate. Like, I know I would. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

That's right. I mean, I think it goes back to the the irony for a group of therapists to like not actually be listening to what a person says, you know, they're like, Yeah, I'm not saying, should I get a biller or shouldn't I? How hard is it to do it myself? That's not what they're saying.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

They're saying, I want a biller, yeah, yes, yeah, do it, yes. Yeah, so you know, we all are different, we all have different strengths, we all have different business goals. So, like, you know, all of my work too, even when I'm working with my clients, like, sure, do I have like a lot of processes at work and resources and tools, but like I'm not gonna overwhelm you and give you everything. It's like, what is what is which one is gonna which one do you need right now, right? Like, what do you need right now for your goal? What's gonna help you? And like, what's gonna help you just like with your personality and your strengths and your weaknesses? Sure, you know, billing is easy for someone and uh other things are not easy for them, you know, which is totally fine. But like, like what that is one of the things we went into business for is like to do what what we like and like to do things we like. And listen, there's always gonna be things we have to do in business we don't enjoy or love. But if you can get rid of some of that, good for you, go for it. That's sustainable, right? Like for me, like I don't want to deal with insurance. I don't even want to deal with my own insurance. Like every time I have to make a call or call a doctor, I'm like, oh god, you know, this is like the most boring thing in the world. Like, it's just it's so such a waste of time. Like, I wish I could figure out how to have someone, I would pay someone to do that for me easily in my personal life. So, like, you know, I get it. Like, there's there's other things we have to do. So, like, but like we went into our business to do the work we enjoy. So if that means like outsourcing some aspects of it, like, good, you know, because the realize we're gonna have to do other things that we don't necessarily love.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Okay, so one of the things that I think we did talk about this a little bit when you came on for kind of part one and part two last time around talking about money as a therapist and then talking about money from the client perspective. And I want people to know that you also have a ton of free resources, and I'm sure we're gonna talk about some of them. But in that group, you have a ton of free resources for folks who are just trying to get their feet wet. But I think what I have learned in terms of prioritizing business, like the business side, and it does kind of connect to what your our kind of theme today is, right? That sustainable practice means you do have to get paid well. Because if you're not getting paid well, you tend to then slip into, I'm not getting paid what I know I'm worth. Like eventually you're gonna get there, right? Where you're like, I'm not getting paid what I know I'm worth, and this job is hard and I'm getting burned out, and that's not sustainable. But I do think there is this fear for a lot of helpers that if I charge too much, then fill in the blank, right? People are it's they're not gonna people aren't gonna come, people are gonna think I'm you know too expensive, they're gonna call me bougie. I don't know what people's fears are, but it's a lot of things. So can you touch on that a little bit? Like, how do you get people to get well, first maybe acknowledge that that obstacle is something they're placing in front of themselves around creating a sustainable practice that pays them well? But then how do you kind of take steps to help people get past that?

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Right. You know, it's tricky, right? Because that lack of mindset is there, it's built into us from school, like you know, getting our masters, our jobs, like our family potentially, depending, you know, what their experiences are around money and like what they what they taught us, like what we saw, you know. So I think it's really important. Like, and this is what's so funny is because again, we're therapists, right? We're constantly trying to help our clients like challenge their beliefs and you know, mindset and stuff. But when it comes to doing it ourselves, and there's something about money and maybe because it's just like this tangible sort of sort of concept, it's like, you know, I feel seems like it's just harder for us to like change how we feel about that, you know, or put it out there. But I think that, you know, I think one it just comes to like that we are going into business to serve people. So that is our focus. We're not really like, yes, we want to make more money, but we just don't understand that side of it, you know, and like you could be good with numbers, you could be good with money, but having to make your money, like having to market is just a whole other world, right? So I think that one, like it is really important to just like notice our discomfort, notice what we're avoiding, or you know, like notice like what comes up, like when we think about people like charging chart other people who are charging more. Like, is it is it jealousy? Is it just like reality where you're like that's that's you know, like over the top? And maybe in your area you don't like need that. Maybe your cost of living is lower and and you know, again, like this is why you have to figure out your numbers. Everybody's number is gonna be gonna be different, you know. I think like it's just very easy to get influenced by others, and you have to really be careful about protecting that and also just challenging like what comes up around charging. You know, when you actually like work out like what your business expenses are, and again, like get an accountant for this. You don't have to do this yourself. Like, you will save money having a business accountant, even in the beginning. Like, I think a lot of people try to obviously save money that way too. And it's like, no, at least like like for the first year, then get it, you know, make that investment so they could show you like what to do, what to write off, like how to figure it out. But like you need to know, like, how much are you actually keeping for every every person that you see? And again, remember, like, that needs to cover our health insurance a lot of times. That needs to cover our vacation time, that needs to cover our retirement and just like regular business expenses. Like, for a lot of us who are, you know, who pay for our own insurance, like we're dealing with the big increase this past year. I know my insurance went up over $200, $200 a month. So it's not like I have to be like, oh, same, same income goal and not consider like that expense or figure out something else that like I could adjust that I don't, you know, so I could spend less in a somewhere else on something to make up for it. So I think it's just really like looking at your numbers, being comfortable, like becoming comfortable with the discomfort of it. I hate that, but you know, you know, just like being willing to look at your bank account and the money that's coming in and and tracking the money. Like just so many of us don't even track how much income we have each month. So it's like we're a lot of people are living in fear and there's no reason to because they're doing well, you know? So but they won't know until they're until they know the numbers. Yeah, but they don't, yeah, exactly. They don't know because they're looking, they're just assuming it's it's like not as good as it is.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Well, I'll share a story about my own life. I my doctoral degree is in school psychology, which um

Money Mindset And Real Expenses

SPEAKER_01 19:25

it has emphasis in assessment. And so I um had all this training and doing all these assessments, and I really loved doing it. And I know that it's uh an important service, particularly around getting specific treatment or accommodations and that sort of thing. And so I was doing assessments in private practice part of the time. And at that time, I was in a group practice, and so I wasn't billing and I wasn't always paying attention to my statement at the end of the month. And for a long time, we weren't getting we weren't getting a breakdown. And so I guess that might be a sidebar for anybody who's in group practice. You should be getting a breakdown of your check of every client that paid and what insurance pays, because you can't know the numbers in a group practice if you don't have what you're getting paid. And so what was happening for me was at the time, and I actually don't know what assessment hours are like now. I'm I'm kind of assuming it's similar or maybe worse. I don't know. But insurance companies, you'd have to send in kind of this plan for what you were gonna do for testing to answer the diagnostic question that you had. And then you were given X number of hours to get the testing done. And so, for example, they would to insurance would say, I'm gonna pay you six hours to get this done. And when I started to actually do the math, Nicole, for how long it took me to do the actual testing, to do the to call the family, to send forms to the school, to get them back, to score them, to write the report, to do the um final evaluation. One one case I did, I should probably not say this out loud, but I got paid eight dollars and twelve cents.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah. And that was the end of assessment for me.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah, a lot of times I have my, I know I was just talking to a client who like there's I feel like there's been a big rush the past couple of years of like getting certified in immigration assessments because people are selling like the certification for it and selling that is really easy and it's a few thousand dollars. But like it's like a lot of people have that, but that's not connected to their audience at all. So they have no way to get those assessments. So it's like they have to do full new marketing, and then you're doing the math, and it's it's like not that much per hour, depending on the work, and especially in the early stages until you have your like processes set up and like know, you know, like have systems that might make it a little quicker or easier, like not duplicated. Everything from start, you know, from scratch. It's really crazy for people to see that. And they're like, when they do the math, it's like, oh, maybe this just, you know, isn't worth it. I, you know, it's better to just see someone to one client. It's like where I already am getting them consistently. And first of all, there's just so many people out there selling things to be easy. You know, I talk about multiple income streams a lot, but it's not like it's like, oh, yay, like free, like great free income overnight, you know, you're not gonna have to see one to one client. It's like it is work to set it up to get it to be profitable, you know. And it could, is it worth it for a lot of us? Absolutely. But some people, it might not be right at this time, and that's totally okay. You know, we just want to make sure whatever you're doing, you are most profitable. You're not overworking, you have systems set up so that admin stuff is easier and quicker, your onboarding processes are quicker, things like that. So it's really just like overall the health of your business. But, you know, again, we do look at a lot of my clients. I do have them do time tracking because it's like, you know, I know like time blindness is one of my biggest weaknesses with ADHD, is like I'll be like, oh, that's a 10-minute task. And then when I started tracking, I'm like, oh, it's like a two-hour task. No wonder like I can't get stuff done, or like is it's taking me so long, you know, to do things, and I'm like working so late. So it's like, okay, that that shouldn't take like, you know, that needs to be adjusted or reassessed.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

So many folks, one to what we've said kind of this whole episode is knowing your numbers is so critical, knowing what you actually need to have to kind of one survive, but then also what's your goal? Like, what would feel sustainable? And this word sustainable, I think is interesting here. Well, I'm curious about your your use of this word sustainable.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah. So for me, when I'm talking about a sustainable business, it's one that is allows you to have like a healthy work lifestyle, right? And that might look a little different for everyone to you. I think that's important to remember. Like my work lifestyle is that I am very busy some months, and then I have like a lot of downtime. Like I was just filling my mastermind program. So like it was two months of of very busy work, lots of selling, lots of behind setting up the the, you know, program work, the structure, things like that. So it was a lot, right? And I never know like how long it could take to sell something or you know, like right now, things that were selling easily a few years ago are just harder to sell right now. It takes more time. Like I'm having to send more sales emails. It wasn't like I was doing anything differently, but like you have to adjust a lot of times. So, like, I think that's another thing is like, you know, for a sustainable business, meaning a business that's gonna support you long term. Yeah, it's not about like getting into this pattern and doing the same thing all the time because there's outside factors that affect it. Maybe something happens in our family, you know, maybe we have aging parents and we have to be more available to support them. Maybe there's times where, you know, you're suddenly an empty nester and you have more time for yourself and your business and your projects or creativity, right? So creating a sustainable business is about really make sure making sure you have a strong foundation, you know, that you have steady income and then you are adjusting as things happen with the state of the world, unfortunately, or things that are taken out of control. But that, like, you know, you're not constantly working from this reactive crisis place. You know, you're able to adjust. It's not pleasant and it's scary and anxiety-provoking at times, but it's that like you'll have the tools to go back to it. You'll know what what is working for your business already with bringing clients in so you can go back to it. But a lot of times we just don't even know those things. We don't know where our clients are coming

Defining Sustainable Work And Adjusting

SPEAKER_00 25:57

from. We don't check. We are doing all these things that aren't leading to clients, you know, whatever they are. And it's fine if it's like fun or something like that and you enjoy it. But like if you're doing it as part of your work where you're thinking it's it's leading to you, it is different than just like doing it because you enjoy it. It's fun, it's maybe an experiment to see how it could go. So you really do need to know, like, you know, what is helping me be profitable in my business, you know, so that again, you are at maximum profitability. And that's one of the things too that I help my clients look at. It's like, I don't want you to just have to add in new income streams or sell more of something. You know, what is going on? Where are their money leaks? Like, where are, you know, like where are you overworking that you don't need to? So that way your business can be healthier. You're making more for less work time, and then you have space to devote to something new. So I think it's just making sure that long term, like your business could survive this crazy, shitty world.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Like shitty world. The ups and downs of where things are. Like, I think we will always have job security as mental health professionals. I think we'll always have job security. But the way in which we get distracted by other things, that's what I kind of hear you talking about. Is earlier you were talking about seeing how other people are doing it, and then we get distracted by that, or somebody says or does something, and we think, oh yeah, I could do that. Yeah. And they're, you know, making, you know, I don't know, we get at this illusion in our mind that I can do that or I should do that. And then we go down that rabbit hole, and that's not sustainable either. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I mean, a lot of times we don't even really know if it's working for them. Yeah, they might be doing it, but like, is it successful? Is it helping, is it bringing in what they needed to or contributing to their goals? But I think the thing is a lot of times, like like things just change, right? Like during the pandemic, all therapists freaked out. That was like first few months, that there was like their businesses were gonna drive, people were not gonna pay for therapy. Instead, there was like a much bigger need, you know, people were paying for therapy out of pocket, you know, people were using their insurance. But I think a lot of people started practices during that time or were newer, just got used to that like bigger increase. So they were not, they're not market, they don't know how to market. So now they're like, oh my God, people are not out here. And it's like people are out there, but like they don't know you're there. If there is less of a demand, there you like we should be structured in a way that like we don't need hundreds of clients a month, you know. Hopefully we're figuring it out at like 20 a week, you know what I mean? Like 20 week, and I know people are seeing more, but like we don't like want to see that many, anyways. Like it's stressful. So, like, and clients are hopefully coming for a bit too, right? Like they're consistent with their treatment. So it's not like we need hundreds of clients, you know. It just means like, what are you doing? Like, what do you need to adjust? They're still there, but like the old ways are not finding you. I hear all the time now about psychology today. Like, people are posting, like, I'm not getting people from psychology today. Is anybody is anybody else getting people from psychology today? And this also becomes very like lack mindset too, where something is not working for us and we want to know it's not just us, and that's totally normal. But post in a way or we look for support in a way to support our experience instead of looking for who's actually bringing in clients right now. How are you finding clients? You know, and asking that question and saying, like, you know, what are you doing to stay busy? Like, how are your clients finding you? And like looking for solutions and realizing, like, and it sucks, like like what I did a few years ago. I have to do more of it, I have to do differently. Like, I get it, it sucks for me too. It's not just it's not just you all, right? Like it's every business, things are just different, right? Things change, social media changes, Google algorithms change, you have to readjust your whole strategy.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Facebook stops showing business posts. Instagram goes from posts to reels. Like, I don't want to dance on real. Like, I have an old huge following from Instagram and my stuff never gets seen. I don't even bother anymore because like it just isn't a good fit for me and my personality anymore, you know. Even with the Facebook group, it used to be so easy for posts to get seen. Now, like Facebook, whatever they do, like it doesn't get the same reach anymore. So I have to make sure that like my content is stronger so that it's really connecting. So more people are gonna engage with it and that'll help it. Um, because Facebook, you know, is just not helping the way they used to. So I think a sustainable business is like also being willing to adjust and try things that didn't work before that for some reason will now work, and like also that like maybe are not that attractive to you, you know, like or like something you don't want to do, like, but being willing to like put yourself out there and and adjust to it.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Okay, so how do we balance that we may need to pivot and be open, but not go down the rabbit hole of, well, I'm seeing other people and maybe I should do what they're doing.

Marketing Shifts And Staying Visible

SPEAKER_00 31:11

It is really be intentional, right? With with what people are doing. And like, and again, this is hard because we just don't always know. So, like, one, it's gonna be some experimentation. Like, it's okay to try different things, but like really also look at like what's worked for your business so far. Don't just like drop everything. Sometimes, like, we drop things we're doing, we become heavily reliant on something that's that then stops working. So we want to make sure too that we're never like putting all our eggs in one marketing basket. Like, yeah, yeah. We don't want to be 100% dependent on insurance. We don't want to be 100% dependent on one insurance plan. We don't want to be dependent on one referral source, you know? Like we want to make sure that, you know, we are thinking safety. And I don't mean you have to do like 10 of these things, but you want a couple, a few two to three things going so that things are not gonna just like change over overnight for you. I think that it just really is like ongoing assessment and knowing that sometimes they're just gonna be busier and we are gonna have to work a little more. And it's not necessarily anything we did, you know. Like I go into the blame thing. Like, what am I doing? What did I stop doing? Like, what, like, you know, what am I doing wrong now? I mean, and that's why I love having a business coach because she's like, this is just the state of the world right now. Like, yeah, isn't just you, like the market's changed, whatever's changed isn't worth like this, just is different, right? So, you know, being intentional with trying different things, but consistently. So, like, not just like throwing yourself into something like, oh, I need to make TikToks, been like just putting random content up and not know like really knowing like how to do TikTok effectively. That's not what I want people doing, but I'm just saying, like, as an example, this is one that I see people suddenly go to that they have no interest in doing.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Okay, so you said something earlier, like you have to kind of know your audience. How important would you say it is for therapists who kind of want to have a sustainable practice to perhaps narrow their audience?

SPEAKER_00 33:15

I think that the niche, this is one of the things that's changed over the past few years. I think that the niche is more important than ever before. Um, and and messaging in your clients' words, which we are actually pretty crappy at because our our training basically like goes against that because it's you know, we're careful with our progress notes. We're like putting it into like, you know, general terms like reviewed three new coping skills, right? You know, versus like, you know, reviewed how to like not blow up at your husband when he forgets to take the garbage again and how to use like how to leave notes or set up a better system, you know. But people want to like read something. And again, this is important too. I think I think this has been important for private pay practices for sure, because like people are gonna pay more money for something they know that is gonna help them when they see it in their words or they are referred to you. But I think it's more important for insurance practices too, before because it's not just about like getting the insurance and just like getting people for some reason. Things have slowed down. Psychology today doesn't work the same way. The visibility factor has changed. But I think that, you know, people who have insurance also want people who are speaking to them. They don't want to settle just because they're using their insurance for somebody like general, you know. They also want to feel like this person can help them and you know, understands what they're going through. So I do think niching is more important than ever before, which sucks because it's hard for us. Like it was hard for me. And like I end up doing it pretty much with like 95% of my clients, I would say. And it's hard because I'll be like, you're not specific. I hate it because it feels just uncomfortable for me to have to like be the person who's like, no, this is still vague. Like, but I get it because like when I started my practice, I was very vague and people kept telling me that. And I was like, no, this is so specific, you know. When you are niched, first of all, like not just does it make it easier for people to know that you can help them, like it makes it easier to know where to market. You're not sending out a thousand flyers to like every doctor's office, you know, being like, I have space available for XYZ. You know, like you're actually sending out strong, you know, like you know who to go speak to. You know, like who are the professionals that have the same audience as you. So like you actually work less because you're able to do things that get results easier, you know, like you're not wasting so much time on experimentation. Again, it's not easy, it's like tricky, and it is important to get outside views on it because you know, just what seems clear to us doesn't mean it's clear to other people.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

I think it's a hard mindset shift because a lot of folks get trained as a general generalist. We train people to be like, you want to work

Pivot Without Copying Everyone

SPEAKER_01 36:11

with all kinds of people, you want to be inclusive in your practice.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

You and then it's like I'm comfortable to claim a niche like when you are coming from a general spectrum. Yes. So you're like, who am I to say I can like, you know, help these people and like specialize in it?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Well, if I'm saying yes to just this tiny group of people, then that inherently means I'm saying no to all the other people. Yeah. And that feels backwards to wanting to grow your business. Oh, but I think what I hear you saying, and what I am like having to also learn in my own kind of professional journey is if you say you do everything, then people don't know if you can do the thing that they want really well.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah. And honestly, nobody when even when we're saying we do everything, like clients don't care about our certifications.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Like, yes, are there certain, you know, like EMDR, right? That's yeah, certain trauma-based or yeah, yeah. But even if like you do EMDR, right? Like if people are looking for EMDR, when I've looked for something, like I like to go to brain spotting and you know, I'd like to do some of those treatments like what for myself, what you know, when things come up that are harder. But like I am looking at the profile, like sure I want them to do EMDR, but if they're like saying that they specialize in like what I've struggled with through the years, I'm gonna be much more likely to hire them, like and want to work with them versus somebody who's just so casual. Yep. And it's like, oh, you know, treats 18 through 80, and you know, like anxiety, depression, um, trauma. You know, it's just like, okay, but can you help me with what I am going through? You know, so it just actually decreases your workload because again, you're not just like going to anybody trying to get clients. Like there, you you will know who's gonna be a better fit, who's gonna be more likely to be able to share clients with you or share resources with you or refer to you. You're gonna be able to know, like, where are your clients? If you specialize in adults or young adults, like you're not gonna go to school counselors and like build really, but I see people who do that in the beginning, they're just like, oh, school counsel are a good resource. Like, I could get clients there, maybe. Like, and you're just trying to get anyone, any age. And like, people don't connect to you when you're doing that either because they find it hard to like have something in common with you or make a connection when you're coming out of nowhere. And honestly, I'm talking about referrals a lot because that is literally like one of the most reliable sources. Yes, is the website great? Yes, absolutely. But like, we got to get people to the website, you know, like is uh Instagram great? Honestly, not really if you need clients soon, because it's so hard for people to find you. That might be something that's good once you have your base, if you really enjoy it, if again, clear on your niche, right? Yep. Who stands out? Accounts that are clear to their niche, not general accounts.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah, I think referral sources, particular, well, I don't know. I feel like in a lot of fields this would be true. But I think so many times, if I could imagine, I guess I don't know. You're you're you're more the expert here. You've probably had more, you've definitely had more clients about this sort of thing. But if I'm a person who looks at my numbers and I look at where my clients are coming from, and there are a lot of folks that say they're coming from word of mouth. Yeah. Which I think in our field matters a lot. It's like finding a great pair of jeans, finding a great therapist

Niche And Client Word Messaging

SPEAKER_01 39:54

that you connect with often comes when somebody tells you, Oh yeah, my sister saw this person and they really loved her. And I think you should, you know, you're talking about referral sources. That's your direct pipeline. Hey, these are the people that if you can get to know them and build a relationship with them, then they're gonna be the ones who also become your advocate.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Right. And I think, like, honestly, something that we don't this again, like this is like just a tiny tweak for a sustainable business, right? It's just like, but that's what I love about where you and my clients. It's really just giving them tiny things. Sometimes I'll just feel bad because I'm like, they're like, well, shouldn't it be like this big massive thing I have to do? And it's like, first of all, in your console process, set up a questionnaire for a few questions and ask them where they found you. And don't just say, How did you find me? Say, how did you find me? Please be specific if it's online. For example, if it's online, what were your search terms or where did you see me? If it was a referral, can you please give me their name if you're comfortable? Like, you gotta tell people what you need. And so many times, like when my like clients shift that, it's such a big difference because it's like, oh, like this lawyer is I'm getting a lot of referrals from a lawyer. Let me reach out to other lawyers because this is clearly a need, you know, or oh, people like my one client realized that um a lot of people found her in a lawyer's Facebook group. Now she can't be in there, but like somebody recommended her, and then it like keeps coming up in the search. So that was great. She got an influx from that, but like that's not sustainable because she can't be in that group and she can't, she's not making anybody like recommend her there. But like, are there other Facebook groups where you could show up and just be helpful? Obviously, again, a lawyer is a good fit, like lawyers are good fit clients, right? So, how can you get in front of more of them different ways if that was something that works and they see the need for you and and pay for you, you know?

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I have found in some of the business coaching that I've done too, that often it's kind of small things that you do just slightly differently.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

I don't know why I'm not doing that. Like tweaking the questionnaire and suddenly you have like all this like helpful information. And again, it's just like I get it because if I was going through a questionnaire, it was like, how did somebody find you? I'd be like, Oh, uh like, or how did I how did you find me? You know, if I wasn't a business owner and didn't know how valuable that it always, I would be vague. I'd be like, oh, like Facebook group. And it's like just again, like a lot of times it's just like I always say for my clients, like, we want you to do more of fewer things, you know, we just want you to be more effective at what you're doing so that you don't have to do so many different things. Yeah, you you can't give 10 to 10 different things, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Well, okay, I'm curious about your most shared freebie. Okay. And then how do people find um, yeah, just more about you?

SPEAKER_00 42:56

So um, my most shared freebie, I mean, there's I actually do have one that would be good right now. This was like a huge one last year, but I updated it for this year. And actually, it's just so good of what we're talking about. I I don't even know. I didn't think about it earlier. But it's it's um a guide to the most profitable niches for therapists in 2026. And I want to say this is not for me to like, this is not for you to go into and pick one of these like niches and and like be like, or just freak out if you don't see your audience in there. But it's really about like how specific they are. And there is also content in in the guide that gives you the process of like how to talk about your niche. Because a lot of us are just like, you know, I help women manage their anxiety. Like when I started my practice, like I was like, I help women stress less. And that's like every fucking woman. Like that's something so specific. And listen, 12 years ago, that was much more niche than a lot of people, but like that was every woman. Nobody knew who to send to me. You know what I mean? Like when I really Like, I thought about who I liked working with and who I was getting. And it was actually like women in toxic workplaces who didn't know how to like advocate for themselves. And then it caused relationship issues because, like, they also didn't advocate for their relationship. So, yeah, could I say women with self-esteem? Sure. But like, are they thinking that? No, they're like, I hate my job, or like, you know, like my boyfriend told me I need to get help, which I just, but like, that's a whole other thing. But like, you know, like, but that's like what they're saying. So the niche guy definitely gives you like language, it gives you just those really specific examples. And I do talk about like the needs now, and you probably are seeing some of these, you know, it's just like, what are people looking for support with now in today's world? You know, like there's certain ways that things are just showing up. There are bigger needs for certain groups of people or jobs or people who have affected, been affected by certain things. So it really does show you like examples of strong niche statements. Um, and you can just download that for free at Nicole Laloya.com. And I see O L E L I L O I A dot com slash 15 niches.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

It's amazing. I mean, there's so many things that I think I just think we don't spend the time thinking about it. You know, it's like we just do it and we go and we help and we, you know, people say we do a good job in our therapy practice. And so we're like, yes, this is great. And then sometimes we look back and we're like, I'm burned out, I'm tired, I don't want to think. So I love this work you're doing. I love this, both for like the individual people that you're working with, but it really is such a great service to be doing the Facebook group because there really are so many valuable things in there. So if you're a therapist listening, I couldn't encourage you more to check out the therapist entrepreneurs group on Facebook.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Because it really is. I mean, it has been one, it is where I found probably 85% of the folks who come on this on this show are people who we met together on that Facebook group. So you really are creating a community of folks who are searching for how to do this whole thing better. So yeah, bravo to you.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Thank you. And everybody, I am like an introvert who's antisocial. So just shows you like you could still like things that you wouldn't think you would like. Like, I would never think I'd like running a big Facebook group and doing trainings in there. So it's so important to just be willing to experiment and try because you know you never know what what you will end up liking.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

I love it. It's great. Listener, thank you for being here today. Until next time, stay safe, say um, stay well. And Nicole, thanks for saying yes to being here. Thanks so much for having me. Awesome. Okay, ciao.