Master the art of setting boundaries in your relationship and personal life with our special guest, Dr. Essence Rivers! Discover the ins and outs of creating healthy boundaries, an essential yet often misunderstood part of maintaining harmonious relationships. We're challenging the traditional view of rules and control; instead, we're exploring the empowering practice of defining expectations based on our values. Tune in to the heart of understanding your values and using them to guide your relationships.
We'll examine the difference between ultimatums and boundaries, learning how to communicate our expectations clearly for a deeper connection. Expect to learn tips and strategies on how to identify when your expectations aren't being met and how to create a bridge of understanding with your partner.
Together, we'll discover how to create them without causing conflict and how our values can help us determine what's reasonable to expect from our partners. Listen in as we stress the importance of communicating expectations and boundaries to avoid surprises and misunderstandings. Ready to embark on this empowering journey with us? Tune in and let's redefine boundaries!
If you, or someone you know, is having mental health challenges and is in need of assistance, please contact 988.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Master the art of setting boundaries in your relationship and personal life with our special guest, Dr. Essence Rivers! Discover the ins and outs of creating healthy boundaries, an essential yet often misunderstood part of maintaining harmonious relationships. We're challenging the traditional view of rules and control; instead, we're exploring the empowering practice of defining expectations based on our values. Tune in to the heart of understanding your values and using them to guide your relationships.
We'll examine the difference between ultimatums and boundaries, learning how to communicate our expectations clearly for a deeper connection. Expect to learn tips and strategies on how to identify when your expectations aren't being met and how to create a bridge of understanding with your partner.
Together, we'll discover how to create them without causing conflict and how our values can help us determine what's reasonable to expect from our partners. Listen in as we stress the importance of communicating expectations and boundaries to avoid surprises and misunderstandings. Ready to embark on this empowering journey with us? Tune in and let's redefine boundaries!
If you, or someone you know, is having mental health challenges and is in need of assistance, please contact 988.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
All right, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramel, and this is Things to Learn Therapy. I am excited about today's topic because I think you know this word boundaries is something that I think we talk a lot about, but I think over and over and over again. As therapists, we see this come up for clients all the time and, frankly, even in my own life, I just think continually being reminded about what healthy boundaries are, what it actually means, is just so good, so I am so excited to have my guest here with us to talk about this.
Speaker 1:I am an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the Master's in Mental Health Counseling program, and I love to make words matter for good, and so I started this podcast so I can interview amazing people like Dr Essence Rivers, who's here with us today to share the things they talk about in therapy, so we can help educate other folks in the world on just you know what happens in therapy. Dr Essence Rivers is with us to share her expertise, so can you tell us a little bit about you and one fun thing about you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I am a. I'm in my second year as a psychologist and love, love, love what I do. So I work a lot with people that have ADHD. Because I have ADHD, my life is really turned into working with people like me. So I really like to work with people in the queer community, people that are people of color or multiracial, especially people that are neurodivergent. I think lived experiences made me good with those people. One thing about me well, I came to Florida for my residency. I actually originally grew up in Ohio, so I'm a Midwest girlie that came to Florida and never left. So I live in this area of Florida and love the beach. I feel like it is second to mental health. Therapy is go to the beach, sit by some water, sit in the sun you'll be all right. So I'd say I love the beach and I love to watch like trash TV from like teenage years. So I'm rewatching Degrassi, if anybody's ever seen that. So I love drama when it comes to that.
Speaker 1:You know what is so interesting, I think, as therapists, you know, I love just like paying attention to what is mainstream, you know, because I think there's so many things to learn to use in the therapy room. Even with, like trashy TV or just you know, series on Netflix and that sort of thing, it's like, oh yeah, you know, let's talk about that and let's relate together in therapy because of this trashy TV.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean especially with like. Right now, I think love is blind, is the one that just dropped in that comes up so much People be like are you watching this? I need to tell you about how this relates to my life and I'm like of course I'm watching.
Speaker 1:You know, I think people who have never been in therapy don't realize that you know, there are moments where you're like just relating human to human and they're like, hey, here's what I'm watching and it made me think about this in my life and it made me think of you or whatever. So we're going to talk about boundaries. Something you said before we kind of got started was you know, you can't teach other adults boundaries, you can't force boundaries on other adults. What did you say exactly? You said it really well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I said you can't, you can't make rules for adults, and a lot of people approach boundaries like rules, and so you know, we know what we, what we don't like, and oftentimes we'll try to tell people like, ok, you can't talk about this around me or you can't talk to this person, and then when people do that thing that you told them not to do, what are you supposed to do? And so people are like I can't, I can't uphold my boundaries, and that's because our what we think our boundaries are actually rules that we're making for other people and we're hoping that that they'll just listen. And it really, it really works that way. So I always try to tell people at the very beginning.
Speaker 2:When I'm working in therapy, I ask them OK, what are boundaries? And most of the time we'll get like 75 percent of the time people are like what stuff you don't want people to do? And I'm like it's not. I wish it was that easy, but but we can't control other people's behaviors and so boundaries are what we do when other people don't meet our expectations, not what we don't want them to do.
Speaker 1:OK, so let's break that down a little bit, thinking about, you know, the listener out there who is like oh well, yeah, this is why I have not been successful at boundaries, because I am saying things and I'm expecting other people to respond a certain way, and then I get frustrated and either shut down or leave or just sort of quit on the relationship, or maybe I get frustrated or angry in the relationship. Help us understand what is the difference then. So if it's not rules for somebody else, what would that?
Speaker 2:look like. Well, I can't answer your question without setting the whole framework as an as a person with ADHD, like I need to see things, and so one of the ways that I've really learned to do boundaries is a really structured kind of pathway of identifying that so that I'm able to really give people the image Our boundaries are like down on the list of things that we we do. Last, there's a lot of things you have to figure out before you're really ready to set boundaries, and I think the first thing is to be able to identify your values. So your values are kind of those overarching things that you care about that guide your life as a whole, and so sometimes values might look like money or it might look like relationships, it might look like honesty whatever that value is and we can have a lot of values. You know there's a lot of things that are important to us, but if we try to set our boundaries and our expectations on every single thing that's important to us, nobody's ever going to be a good fit. Yeah, so I often have clients do like a card sort one of those values card sorts and get like five to 10 values that are really important to your top and those are going to be the things that guide your life in every area and also inform your needs, which is kind of like the next step that I take people with.
Speaker 2:So values are are nice ideas, right, it's things like friendship and belongingness. But like, what does that actually look like in your life? And I think that what gets really difficult, especially for some of the 20 somethings that I see, is that their values have been told to them their whole life by, like the way they were parented. So when you become an adult yourself, you have to kind of go back I can say are those things actually important to me? And we see a lot of like college students that are like I'm definitely not gonna value that, that's not important to me now, because they didn't like it about their upbringing.
Speaker 2:But then they never replace those things. They never say like, okay, this is actually what's important to me. And so they run into basically like pinball of I don't like that, I don't like that, I don't like that. But they never really figure out what they do like and that's just like a recipe for failed relationships. When you take a value and you turn it into a need, that is where we make things very behavioral, say like, okay, what does this look like in my lifestyle? What does this look like in the job that I choose? What does this look like in the relationships that I have? What does this look like for like my own personal code of conduct and that kind of thing? And then you can spread your needs around your life, so only some of your needs need to be met by other people, and then other ones are just things that you have control over. I mean, I think these are really really important for even getting to this space, to uphold any type of boundaries, understanding what you care about and what that looks like.
Speaker 1:I love this. I love how we're actually starting this whole conversation this way, because I totally agree that sometimes the reason boundaries are so hard is because we don't even know why we have to set a boundary. You know, it's like, well, I just feel like maybe I'm supposed to, you know, or someone else has told me that I should, but I think about some clients that I've had and conversations I've had with folks, especially around this values topic. I love the idea of the card store because it really does kind of break it down. I can imagine so many people where they're like I don't know, I value all those things, uh-huh. And so if I value all those things, how do I then break it down to behaviorally? Because I think that is a point of a lot of contention for folks when we act in a way that is contrary to what we value. And so I love to hear more like how do we take things from values to needs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think that when you have a value, I'm trying to think of like a specific value- Well, let's say, like friendship, I love the friendship value.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So first, with friendship, when you're like, oh, I value friendship, there's kind of different ways that you want to make sure that shows up in your life. Let's say, like when I'm picking a job, if friendship is my top value, then I want to pick a job that maybe provides me opportunities to meet friends where there's maybe in person, or that workplace does social hours or whatever. I also want to pick a job that doesn't take up all my time where I can't see my friends, and so those are things that might show up in your work, but then they also really show up in your relationships. And so you want to kind of ask yourself, what does this look like for me in my own life when I'm valuing this? So that might be that you are seeing your friends on a regular basis, that maybe you keep your Monday night bachelor night is like a non-negotiable for you and you want that to be a part of your life, that if your friends need you, that you're going to just kind of drop everything and be there for them, and that's what it looks like for you.
Speaker 2:But then I think, when you're also thinking about bringing other people into your life, let's say a romantic partner then you have to think about what's the life, what does your life look like with that person that would allow you to live out that value? So let's say, I really value, we'll go with bachelor night, right, it's Monday night and I really value this time. Then I'm not going to do very well with a partner that thinks that my friends are annoying or that I shouldn't prioritize that, or like, oh, your friends are always texting you. Like, why are you? Why do you? Always answer that's going to cause fights because they don't hold the value that I hold in the same way. So we have to think about what it looks like for us, but also, when we're looking at relationships, what do we need for that person to live true to our values?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so good Cause I'm just picturing the relationship where this person says I value friendship and I know I need this bachelor night or this girls night or I need this time with my friends, but I also have a value of love and belonging and so I want to be in this relationship and so I value both these things. How do I manage the conflict that comes not even just between me and my partner about this, but between me and me about this right Like, I want to continue to have this girls night, but I also recognize that the more and more angry that my partner gets about this, how do I make this choice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I think that you're leading right into kind of where I take people. So values and needs are like global, there over your whole life. But when we make it specific to our relationships, then we're looking at preferences and expectations, and so I often will have people right out like a wish list and say, like what are all the things that you want in a partner? And one of the things that's really really important at this level is that you're not making it to the person that you're like dating, like you're thinking about what are they doing, and I'm like I'm just gonna put all of that stuff down. But like, truly, if you were with like the perfect person for you to make you feel your best and your favorite version of yourself, what characteristics would they have? What behaviors would they do? Like, what would they fully embody?
Speaker 2:And then from that list, there's gonna be some things that are just nice, like I want someone that's tall, like you don't really care, like it's not gonna make or break the relationship, it would just be nice and for our preferences those are often things that are not really rooted in our values. If you fit there and you look, you'll be like it's not really attached to a need, it's just something that I would like, and so we're not as hard on that and we're more willing to be flexible and kind of move around when people don't fulfill all of our preferences. But then when we look at our needs, that informs our expectations of people and those are the things that we're willing to set boundaries on. You can't really have an expectation if you're not willing to set a boundary regarding it. Otherwise, like you undermine yourself when trying to set that expectation, because there's no consequence to not meeting it, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're gonna continue down this path of. I value friendship, but I also value love and belonging, and I wanna be in this relationship, but my partner doesn't want me to go every Monday to spend time with my friends, and so my expectation is that they would still allow me to be who I want and need to be. And how am I setting that expectation then?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think that when you have those boundaries and those expectations that are very much rooted in your values, then it makes it easier, you feel better about setting that expectation. For a lot of people I teach this at the start, like when they're dating. But then there's a set of people that are like I'm currently in a relationship and I have a lot of work to do, kind of like what we're describing, and so I think that you can't just like come out of nowhere with a boundary because people don't get it. They're like what expectations is you? Bring that person along the same journey that you've just gone on.
Speaker 2:So let's say I go to my partner and say you know what? I realized that one of the things that is really, really important to me is my friends, and what that looks like for me is that I spend time with them regularly, that I'm able to talk to them and that we maintain a consistent like hangout time. So my expectation is that you and I can totally find a time where we hang out, and right now in Mondays, is protected time between me and my friends and so by like connecting the dots of this is my value, this is my need and this is what that means for you. It feels easier and it also is easier to accept as another person, because you can see why that's important to me. People aren't always gonna be happy, but it's better than saying like you need to, just let me, I do what I want to do, because that is a fire starter.
Speaker 1:It is a recipe for disaster I love. Actually it's a fire starter, because it really is a fire starter in a relationship To just be like you just need to do this and that's all Right, yeah, Okay. So we're staying rooted to values, we're identifying those as needs, we're kind of taking a look at our preferences and then the expectations are really what drive the boundary.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I tell people you have three to five top values. Those are the things that you're setting expectations about, and so a lot of the times, people aren't really sure like, okay, well, what does that look like? I use a little I don't know a formula. It's hard because this is a podcast, so just imagine. So I'm just going to describe what I'm doing. I hold my hand up up here and that is what I expect from people. That is where I want them to be, and if this is where my expectations are, but they perform down here and this is what reality is, then all the space between what I expect and what actually happens is disappointment.
Speaker 2:When you're in a situation and you feel like, ugh, I wish they didn't do that. Ugh, I hate this. Ugh, this isn't going the way I want. Disappointment is the easiest way to identify that an expectation was not met. Because you feel that you feel that disappointment, you feel you might notice those thoughts of like ugh, I'm so annoyed, I can't believe this. And when you sense that disappointment, there's some unmet expectation. And so when you notice that your expectations aren't being met, when you notice that you're feeling disappointed and you're able to identify well, what did I want them to do, and what did they actually do? That helps to kind of frame your expectations. Now, if you really struggle with that, you can also think about the things you just can't stand, like the drive you nuts, reasons that you've broken up that kind of stuff, and then just think about the opposite of that. But you want those expectations to be so specific and so behavioral that you can communicate that with another person, because if you don't know what you want, then how are they supposed to know?
Speaker 1:I want to ask you to clarify the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum. Ooh, okay, because it just feels like, you know, I love how we're framing this and I think a boundary is you know, we can't create rules and a boundary is kind of our reaction. But I'm like picturing folks who think ultimatums are good boundaries. You know, because they're trying to stay focused on. I need you to change. Like that's at the heart of an ultimatum is like if you don't do this, then this big thing's going to happen and that's not what we're saying.
Speaker 2:A boundary is so I think it's tough right and this is the way that I explain it is when we have an expectation, let's say that my expectation is that you are, you're, supportive of my friendships. That is my expectation. Now, that is going to be my expectation for any person that I date, regardless of if I just met them, if I haven't met them yet, or if I'm currently dating them. That is my expectation for my partner is that they are supportive of my friendships, and so that becomes kind of like our ceiling. This is what the gold standard looks like. So, once you have your expectations, what I have people do is go ahead and like give them a grade. So we're going to go from 0% of the time to 100% of the time how much that person is meeting that expectation?
Speaker 2:If it is and this is just the way that I do it obviously, everybody can make their own personal framework, but this is what I tend to recommend is you also have to identify like what is the lowest that you'll accept and stay in a relationship with a person For yourself. If I am in a relationship where less than 50% of the time, they're like never supporting, they're against my friendships more than they're for my friendships, then that's probably not a relationship that I want to be in, because friendship is so important to me. It's going to cause problems all the time and they're going to be unsolvable problems, or I'm going to have to change what's really important to me to stay in this relationship, which is, like resentment, central. And so I usually say go ahead and take a step back, look at that disappointment and look at how often that's happening. If it is happening more than 50% of the time, you need a boundary.
Speaker 2:If it is happening, let's say like maybe 50 to 70% of the time, they're doing what I would expect.
Speaker 2:Most of the time they are honoring my friendships, valuing them, but there are some problems. Then that is kind of like the yellow zone and there needs to be some type of discussion on how to close that gap and make that disappointment smaller. And then let's say, like 75% of the time to 100% of the time they're totally pro friends, but there are some occasions where, like, they don't like, maybe when they're sick, or maybe they have something that's important to them that they want you to be at, but it doesn't really cause problems. The reasons and the times that they don't do it and they don't meet your expectation make sense, then those are normal relationship problems, like nobody's going to be 100% of the time. So you have to kind of decide like what is, what are you willing to tolerate? And I think that that is where boundaries and ultimatums differ is because there's room for context and also reflecting on what are the problems that are actually being caused in the relationship as a result of them not meeting that expectation.
Speaker 1:I love that you just said the percentage is likely to never be 100%. They're probably not going to do exactly what you want 100% of the time, and that doesn't mean that they aren't supportive of your friendships. I love that you're sort of saying like let's take a step back and give them a grade before we even start doing anything else. And if it's like 70 or 75% of the time, does that feel reasonable? And you think that's the thing that I was thinking about was how do we realize whether our expectations are reasonable or not?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:How do we take a hard look in the mirror to say is this a reasonable expectation of my partner?
Speaker 2:This is why I try to get people early on, before they're in these relationships, because I think it's so much easier to date and to start relationships in this framework than to like switch. But I think that most people that are realizing that they need boundaries are in the middle, so being able to reflect and say, like, okay, is this a reasonable expectation. Oftentimes, the things that are making them unreasonable are like looking at what we can do about disappointment. So when we have those two things again, this is what we expected and this is where what actually happened and there's this gap. There's only really two ways to close the gap. One is lower your expectations and the other is make it more likely that somebody can meet them. Yep, and the reasons that people tend to not meet our expectations are one they don't know what they are, and this is a huge portion People don't know, it's a huge portion.
Speaker 2:And it's like we talk about with parents where you tell a kid, like don't run in the house, and the kid's like, ok, I won't run in the house, I'll just do cartwheels Right, exactly, and it's like that's not what you wanted either. But when we tell people what we don't want, it's not really helpful to getting our expectations met. That's why we want them to be explicit. So a lot of times people, just by articulating their expectations, see that they get met more often.
Speaker 2:I think that we get to decide then if there are some reasons that a person cannot meet our expectations, whatever they may be, you have to look at the person in front of you and say, ok, this person isn't able to value that expectation. I don't know, because maybe they need me to take care of our kids that night. So they value friendship, but also we need to take care of the kids. Do I agree with the reason they're not meeting their expectations? Can we have a conversation and compromise and problem solve why this is in conflict and a lot of people. If that's the case, then that works out. But there's also this other group of people that you can present it however you want. You can talk about it however you want, and sometimes they just don't want to meet it, for whatever reason they're like, I don't care why you want me to value your friends. I just won't In those situations. That doesn't mean that your expectation is unreasonable.
Speaker 2:It might just mean not a good fit, and I think that that is the people that I work with that struggle with this the most is when they know that their partner is not going to change. That's not who they've been, that's not who they are. And those are the relationships where they have to get into setting boundaries not only with themselves but also with that person about the nature of the relationship, because if not, you just set yourself up to continually be disappointed by somebody that has never really met your expectations in the first place.
Speaker 1:OK, so we might as well go there. Since we're here, let's say for whatever reason they can't or they won't honor what this expectation is, then what?
Speaker 2:If you realize that your expectations are not being met and you realize that you're being hurt by how close this person is to you each time that they create this disappointment. So every single time you want to hang out with your friends they are, you just know they're unwilling to support that, they're unwilling to be positive, they're going to blow up your phone or they're going to. There's going to be like a fight when you get home and that kind of thing. Then it's a personal decision, but I tend to say, like is this the way that you want to live and is this the way that you want to do that?
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of people kind of come to the conclusion that when there are people that are, regardless of how you present your expectations, especially the ones that are really rooted in your values, and somebody is unwilling to really value that themselves, then the relationship is not going to work out or it's going to be a really painful thing for you and for the person who is unable to meet your expectations. Boundaries are really variable in the amount of space, like boundaries don't always mean that you cut somebody off, but it is. How close can this person be to me and still not meet my expectations, and I'd be OK with that.
Speaker 2:And I think like, let's say, I have a friend where I really value, like, and my expectation is that they keep like my secrets or there's like this think like confidentiality between us. So when I tell them things like my expectation is that they don't tell anybody else and oftentimes I find them like telling other people what I say. Now, maybe that doesn't mean that I need to just cut them off as a friend completely, but I recognize that you can't meet this expectation. So this is not a value or a need that I'm going to get met by you. So they don't. They're not your confidant anymore. They're not the person that you're telling everything to. They lose access to like that part of you, and that's the boundary. Like you can take away just a part of you and still remain in a relationship, because our expectations are specific to one need, it's not global.
Speaker 2:Now, if you look at somebody and they're not meeting any of your needs, usually that's not a great relationship. But if it's like in one area and you're OK with cutting a person off from that one area and remaining in a relationship with them, then you can do that too. There's a lot of people that you're like. They're not good at giving advice and I would never, ever want to ask them what to do because I don't agree with their choices. But I love to go to happy hour with them. That's fine, like we don't.
Speaker 2:People don't have to be everything, friends or things like that, as long as your needs are getting met by the life that you're building. So maybe you get that need met in therapy rather than with your friends and that kind of thing. So I think by early on figuring out where you need your needs met, it makes it easier to remain in relationships with people that maybe don't meet our needs because we can get them met elsewhere. But it also really illuminates that if there's a person that's getting in the way of you meeting all of your needs, it's probably not a good fit in terms of relationship for you.
Speaker 1:Well, I love that we're also stating clearly that boundaries don't always have to be a verbal conversation, so it's not like me telling them what I need and what I need from them, though that could be how you would set a boundary. Sometimes, setting a boundary means I'm just not going to do a certain thing, or I'm not going to engage in a specific way in this relationship, and that's a boundary, and I love that. This is sort of circling back to what you said earlier, that boundaries aren't about the other person necessarily. It's how I am responding, and so if I know that this person is going to tell my business to everybody else, I don't need to say to that person you're telling my business, so I'm not telling you anything ever again. Yeah, just stop. You just don't have to tell them things, right? I mean, though, you could, if you felt like you needed to, you know, have a conversation with them, but really the boundary is in you, not sharing, that's the boundary.
Speaker 2:Often what I tell people is like you have to figure it out within yourself. So I have another way that I talk about boundaries. That is, we don't have time for today that I talk about how to set those boundaries and how to move those things around. Those people, once they learn about that, they're like I'm ready. And I'm like, no, don't go out and set boundaries yet. I'm just teaching you the framework. And they're like they come back to the next session and they're like, oh, I didn't work and I was like I told you not to do it.
Speaker 2:Don't set boundaries yet, because even though we know that there's a need for a boundary, that is not like sufficient enough to set the boundary itself. That is like just sensing that disappointment is not everything, because you need to figure out, ok, what is important to me? What does this look like for this relationship? What type of boundary do I want to set? Do I want to set a physical boundary where I'm not around them? Do I want to set an emotional boundary where I only share certain emotions with them? Do I want to share an intellectual boundary where there are certain things we just don't talk about? Or do I want to set a boundary with my time where I only see them this period of time. So by the time that you're actually getting around to maybe even setting this boundary, you have done so much work to figure out what it was that it's a lot easier to uphold it because you're invested, like you have done a lot of personal work, you've done a lot of personal reflection, that when you're getting around to saying, hey person, I've been not telling you things. Maybe they confront you and they're like you never tell me about your life anymore. And those are good times to say you know, I really value my privacy and our closeness. There's the value, need. I really need a space where I can talk without other people hearing about it. There's the need. I have an expectation that when I tell you or any of my friends something, that it stays between us. That's the expectation. And since you haven't done that, I can no longer talk to you about these things and that is the boundary.
Speaker 2:And so when we're confronted by other people about maybe our, our boundaries and our behavior changes, that's a great time to lay it out for them and explain why. And you know why because, again, you've already done all of this on your own, but I think that sometimes people don't even notice, and so you can set a boundary without a whole like confrontation, stressful situation and like just set it and make your life better and protect you. But I think the one time that I do tell people that we really do need to notify people of our boundaries is if you're thinking about completely ending a relationship, because sometimes people will be like they have one last straw to do this, and if not, I don't want to be around them. And I think that sometimes we can hold people to standards or things like that that they're not aware of, and that's why it's so important.
Speaker 2:Whereas we don't really communicate our boundaries all the time, we always communicate our expectations, and if somebody is, it's very obvious that they have the capability to meet your expectation. They know what your expectation is and you've told them. However many times you've decided you're going to say that, then, when the boundary comes, nobody's shocked because you're like hey, I told you I wanted you to stop telling people my business like multiple times. You haven't done it, so I don't want to be friends with you anymore. They can't be like you never told me that, because you did when you set your expectations, and so when we set our expectations, we're very clear about what we want. Then boundaries are not as harsh to the person and they're not as difficult to deliver or to maintain to you.
Speaker 1:I love this. I think when I work with folks in terms of setting boundaries I kind of a similar thing I kind of help the person think through not just the actual act of like setting the boundary and how we're going to do that, but then I also want to prepare them for the other person's reaction, to sort of try to predict when this person is going to push the boundary. So it's like, how do we hold the boundary? And I think that that's where sometimes having less conversation or less sort of like poking the bear sort of scenario is better. With boundaries, if you know that this person is going to be confrontational and aggressive, you may just choose to set the boundary without having a conversation about you know, whatever is happening. I try to help folks think about how would you anticipate that they might react? And then how are we going to hold this space?
Speaker 2:You learn earlier on like you might not even need to get to the boundary. Because when you're setting expectations and relationships and you're saying like, okay, this is kind of the role that you play in my life, maybe we're we're newly in a relationship or you're a new friend and I'm saying, these are the things that are important to me and this is what I need from friends and this is kind of what I expect, when you put all those things out there, you've seen how they reacted early. So they're like oh yeah, I don't really care about that. Well, right there in that moment, before you even get to putting you and them in a situation, look at how your values align. And so we're just as responsible as other people are for maintaining our boundaries.
Speaker 2:Because if you go into a situation where you know that the person is unable or unwilling to meet your expectation, that's on you.
Speaker 2:You keep putting yourself in that position. You have to be able to be mindful throughout the relationship building process, of your role, as well as when you have like. Maybe you're surprised, maybe all the way up to this point, they have like done, they've said that that's important to them. They've shown you that in other ways, but in this specific situation it's like a whole different person and that kind of thing. Then maybe they're a little bit more caught off guard and you're not sure. But for the most part you already know how that person feels about that and so you can kind of anticipate that response. But the boundary conversation is not as difficult when you've had the values conversation, the needs conversation, expectations conversation. You've laid out what that looks like, that you've laid out and you've told them when they do meet your expectation, like wow, I really appreciate it and thank you, this is exactly what I was talking about. Then nobody's really is confused and you tend to get a better response to your boundaries.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's such a good reminder that you know if you haven't been having conversations about what you value and what you need, it is going to be hard to set a boundary. So if this is like coming out of nowhere this is what you were saying earlier right. If you haven't been active in having ongoing conversation both on both sides of this relationship, right that. What do you value? What do I value? Oh, this is where things can get sticky between us because we don't share these values. We should be having those conversations ongoing so that when it comes time to have the boundary, it shouldn't be harder or it shouldn't be hard. It might still be hard, but it's going to be easier if you've had those conversations all throughout.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because values conflicts predict conflicts. So if you recognize that oh, I don't know, I think a common one is like religion, like okay, I really value my faith and the person that I'm with doesn't really value that, and you find out early on, so you can expect, maybe when it's Christmas and you want them to come to this church service with you, that like that's going to be a thing. And so when you recognize the values conflict, you can problem solve before the situation even gets there and say, okay, well, how are we going to handle this, because this is really important to me, and then you avoid the fight altogether. So if you do the work on the front end, you only you don't really have to set boundaries as frequently, which is the scary part of relationships and it's the conflict, when it's the thing that people are really concerned about is conflict, and how do I hold my boundary?
Speaker 1:And if we can have these conversations on the preventative end, we're more, much better off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so boundaries start with you and, kind of like, end with you as well. I don't think that it's as much. I mean, people are never going to be happy when you set a boundary, especially one that they were maybe benefiting from that you didn't have right, Like if it was beneficial to them that you stayed when they acted like this or you were in a relationship with them even when they were talking and sharing your business, and then you're saying you're losing access to me. Nobody's going to be like, wow, thank you, I really needed you to set that boundary with me. You can anticipate like a negative response, but if you know how important that is to you and your mental health and well being and your personal values and your lifestyle needs and the way that you want to be treated and the way that you're willing to treat other people, then it's not as difficult. The conflict is like worth it at that point.
Speaker 1:It's so good. Okay, dr Rivers, tell folks how they can learn more about you. Follow you all of that stuff.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I am on Instagram at Dr Essence Rivers, just all written out like that. I work for Customized Behavioral Healthcare. We are a practice located physically in central Ohio and then also serving people in Florida, so I'm dolly licensed so I can see people in both of those states. We provide individual and group therapy across the lifespan. So I do a lot of boundary coaching and ADHD coaching for people and we do take insurance. So if there are people that are interested, you can Google my name usually my psychology today and that kind of stuff comes up and kind of get into working with us. But I'm on Instagram at Dr Essence Rivers and then our practice is at Customized Behavioral Healthcare.
Speaker 1:I'm so thankful that you said yes to being here and, yeah, I mean I just hope that folks could hear so many really tangible things but then also like really helpful ways to kind of step back and think about your part in every relationship you're in. I mean, that's what I love about this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yes, and thank you so much for having me. Like you asked me at the beginning, like what are you really passionate about? And I'm like I really am passionate about boundaries because nobody taught me, nobody sat down and was like this is how you have boundaries. And so I'm really trying to be that person for people, so that somebody can teach you this is how you have boundaries.
Speaker 1:It's so good, and if you struggle with boundaries, we recommend finding a therapist. If you live in Florida or Ohio, then Dr Essence Rivers might be your gal, and if not, find somebody in your area. And, as always, thanks for listening and until next time, stay safe and stay well. Ciao, yeah, I love you.