Imagine unlocking the secret to a fulfilling career that goes beyond the paycheck; we're here to guide you on that journey. This week, Kali Wolken, with a remarkable ten years of shaping young careers, unveils the art of aligning one's passions with a rewarding career path. Together, we unpack the essence of a job being more than just a financial necessity—it's a significant slice of life where joy and satisfaction are paramount. Kali brings to the table the concept of expanding horizons, encouraging young minds to think imaginatively about career prospects, and the exhilarating possibility of turning passions into professions.
Our enlightening conversation navigates through the practical aspects as well, discussing tools like the Campbell Interest and Skill Survey that can shine a light on personalized career directions. Kali highlights why professional guidance is crucial when interpreting these assessments, ensuring that young adults have a clear vision of their strengths. We also touch on the less-traveled roads, like the benefits of a gap year for introspection, and the counterintuitive notion that changing college majors could actually improve chances of graduation without adding extra semesters. This dialogue is peppered with strategies and insights for both teens and parents, aimed at fostering informed decisions that lead to both personal and professional growth—turning the career exploration journey into an adventure of self-discovery.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Imagine unlocking the secret to a fulfilling career that goes beyond the paycheck; we're here to guide you on that journey. This week, Kali Wolken, with a remarkable ten years of shaping young careers, unveils the art of aligning one's passions with a rewarding career path. Together, we unpack the essence of a job being more than just a financial necessity—it's a significant slice of life where joy and satisfaction are paramount. Kali brings to the table the concept of expanding horizons, encouraging young minds to think imaginatively about career prospects, and the exhilarating possibility of turning passions into professions.
Our enlightening conversation navigates through the practical aspects as well, discussing tools like the Campbell Interest and Skill Survey that can shine a light on personalized career directions. Kali highlights why professional guidance is crucial when interpreting these assessments, ensuring that young adults have a clear vision of their strengths. We also touch on the less-traveled roads, like the benefits of a gap year for introspection, and the counterintuitive notion that changing college majors could actually improve chances of graduation without adding extra semesters. This dialogue is peppered with strategies and insights for both teens and parents, aimed at fostering informed decisions that lead to both personal and professional growth—turning the career exploration journey into an adventure of self-discovery.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
All right. So hey again everyone. This is Dr Beth Tramell and I'm here with my amazing friend and colleague. I'm really excited to have Kaylee here with us today. She is brilliant at a lot of things and, as we were kind of honing in on what you were going to share today, kaylee, I'm really excited about some of this career stuff because I think it's sort of a number of things we sort of want our kids to think about what they're going to be when they grow up. But I'm not sure we as parents have a whole lot of training in how to really help them. So I'm really excited about what you're going to share with us today. But before we start, tell us a little bit about you and give us something fun about you.
Speaker 2:Hey, so I first and foremost, like I've actually been hard to believe this, but I've been doing counseling for 10 years now and I feel kind of old from that. But I work with ages like 13 and up and I really do find my greatest joy in working with people in career work. I actually probably slip it in there sometimes just when I can sense that it can help a person, even if they haven't specifically asked for it. But then once we start talking we really get a chance to kind of see why it matters to them. And then I've done all of these different areas like kind of developing workshops or programs or things like that, to kind of help have a structured way of looking at career work. But I've always loved it.
Speaker 2:I think that we get we're in it for so long in our lives I mean, I think the statistic they put in is a third of our lives that it kind of feels really important that we are happy in that part of our lives.
Speaker 2:And so I really you know so much of the teams that I work with are so unaware of how important that is, because you hear that they need to go to college and get a job and be able to make money and I'm trying to encourage them to think a little bit more creatively and understand like, hey, this is something new, it's good for you to be excited about and enjoy and helping them figure out, like actually giving them hope, that's the way to put it. It doesn't have to just be a job. So that's kind of where I'm coming from and then my I don't know. My one fun thing is that I think of is that I had I studied in Australia for five months and that's like one of my favorite memories is being all the way across the planet in another country and I hope to go back someday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my gosh, that's so fun. I what part of Australia?
Speaker 2:Sydney you know the main part that you think of and then we went. I went up to the Great Area Reef as like a vacation with some friends, and it was a time that we just kind of did what we wanted to do, which was, I think, part of why I loved it so much.
Speaker 1:It's so funny. I mean, I've been doing these, you know these episodes with folks and I'm learning something fun and new about even people that I've known for a long time.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I don't. I will talk about it all day long, but I don't usually volunteer that information in a conversation.
Speaker 1:I love that. Oh my gosh, that's so fun. I'm so glad you shared that. So, yeah, okay. So let's talk career work, which is we use the word career here and you probably do a ton of work with adults and you know figuring out maybe a career change or how to enjoy their job more or whatever. But I really love this emphasis on you know our, our teens and even our college age folks. So what do you typically talk about that kids these days need to know about related to their, their job or their career?
Speaker 2:So I I a lot of times talk with student. We often think linearly. We think like, okay, I need to pass this class, that I need to graduate, then I need to choose a college, then I need to choose a major, then I need to choose a job, and I talk with students about a lot of times they run into this you know what's the point of taking this class right now? So when we think more about where we want to be, our destination, we then can actually work backwards and say, okay, this is why the class matters, you know, and it might be as simple as in order to get this type of diploma, to get to that college, I need to pass this class, you know. But it tends to help with motivation if you know where your destination is, and so I talk a lot with students about that's actually really important to have some idea of where you're going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great and I can imagine that, even if they can't picture like the final, final destination that you probably also talk about destination in terms of there's multiple, like multiple stops along that destination right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we have in career work I say we broadly because you'll see it pretty much anywhere you start looking at career exploration there's kind of certain areas that you will look at and one of them is your interest. Those exist. I mean, you can have kind of your inherent interest and you can have built interest based on things that you experiment with, but they just kind of exist. And so a lot of times in in career exploring and whatnot, there's a lot of hey, what do you like?
Speaker 2:Right now, and I have, I have some students that will laugh at me because they'll be like well, I like playing video games and I'm like that's fine, what do you like about the video game? You know, because sometimes they'll say like oh, I like talking with other people. You know, I like the co-op games versus the quest-based or story-based game, and so even that Believe it sounds can be really informative. And I try and help students think more creatively about what they're doing and how their Interests are drawn and how that can be translated to other jobs. And then there's the. The other category that they follow that career work looks into is how good we are at things.
Speaker 2:So we have kind of a natural skills at things or we have built skills. You know, we usually go to school or some kind of learning to build skills, but we can also naturally be good at things and we tend to also be a little bit more willing to pursue. Like I'm good at baking. You know, I might attend culinary school just because I'm good at baking, but if I'm, if I'm, bad at that, my skills are really low. In that my interests aren't gonna match either. I might have to kind of pull myself that way and it would actually depend on how high my interests are.
Speaker 2:And then the other two Pieces are our personality, which I just described as like. Don't think of it like what we often hear with personality tests, like the Different types of personality, but think of it more like the fit for the job, like every job has fit and we fit jobs and jobs fit us, and so that's what personality kind of comes into play. And then the last piece, which I actually think of the most important piece, is work values, which is really just our motivators. You know what? Do we want to be in a job that has flexible hours? Do we want to be in a job that Makes us a lot of money. You know, a lot of times high schoolers want to make a lot of money, but not always. Sometimes they really want to be able to travel a lot, and so I talk with them about all these different areas and help them understand that it's actually like a decision for how they want to live their life, as opposed to just something they want to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and I'm actually like I don't know how you work through each of those four categories with people, but you know, I can even picture like these four columns of like these are my interests, these are my skills, these are these are the things that I think I would fit with, and then, you know, this is what I kind of want for my, my career, and even having parents kind of help add some parts to that, because I could imagine Sometimes it's hard for for our teenagers to see their skills and they're kind of their full skill set Right.
Speaker 2:We as parents need to think creatively about what our kids are doing, because they are Leaning into those a lot of times and we encourage it in really little kids, right Like we do the full. Who do you want to be when you grow up? And Unfortunately, as kids get closer and closer to adulthood, of the youth, of teens or young adults, it's likely shifts the pressure and it becomes what do you want to do when you grow up? And that's actually a different question. I actually argue that it's not as helpful of a question because I mean our identity, part of it is in what we do, yeah, and so when we say who do you want to be, it's because we are a client with an identity to our word.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. So can you give us some examples of each of those categories and like questions that you might ask our teams that might help them kind of hone in or other resources that you use a lot?
Speaker 2:There's a resource called mynextmoveorg and it just explores interest. It's like 60 questions and they're pretty obvious what they're asking, but they try to get you just thinking about what kinds of directions interest you one way or another. There's even though I recommend it and I like it so much it also has a list of what they call job zones, and the job zones are broken down into five categories, one being you don't need any training, school experience, in this. You can do it from day one all the way up to five, which is a PhD or a higher degree of some kind. What I like about it is you do the 60 questions and then at the end you can choose which job zone you're looking at. But you also can just like click through. It's already got the results that you're just looking at.
Speaker 2:You know what, if I want to do, what if I do want to go to college, what jobs are available in that particular zone, and it matches you with like good fit, better fit, best fit kind of result. And it's free. So that's one of the reasons that I will send people to that. A lot is because it's free.
Speaker 2:The types of questions that I ask have a lot to do with what you're already doing, what you're already interested in, and I do actually ask about family history too, because if, for example, you have somebody who says my dad has worked in the same job his whole life and he faced it, then that gives me a lot of information because it tells me you're used to seeing somebody who just does work and that they get by, and that's going to actually inform your own decision, that's going to make you kind of look at work differently, as opposed to you know, I saw my, my dad and my mom at 50 years old decide to stop what they were doing and pursue photography or something, something that they've been dreaming to do and they loved it, and so that's an actually often, you'll see, it encourages people to take bigger risks because they've seen their parents take those risks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I think it's so true that you you may not get that information unless you ask specifically about it, and how powerful it is that that's what shape so many of our decisions when we're teens. Right is what our parents do, what our parents think, what we see our parents doing yeah, that's so good. So I just had something that came to mind that you know, do you ever have folks who take a career survey or you know a questionnaire like this and it says you would be a great musician, and then they kind of like freak out or or swing the other direction, where they're like okay, well, I must pursue that because that's what this tells me.
Speaker 1:So can you walk through like I don't want to say danger of taking career inventory but, how do you kind of like tell people that this is really just an information gathering tool, not like a prescription Right?
Speaker 2:so. So what you're going to find in the differences between a career test that you pay for or the one that maybe is a little bit more standardized, is one they're going to have a lot more questions but it's going to take longer. They're going to be checking to see how you know consistent you are with your responses, so they're going to they're going to say that these are more accurate information. But the reason that's what it is how you're feeling when you take those, those tests is going to actually be a big determining factor in in what the results say. And actually my favorite one if you're going to pay for one, my favorite one to pay for is called the Campbell interest and skill survey, which measures not just your interest but your skills as well, and it's like 20 bucks. I like it because it measures both of those and then says you know, would you? You both like this job and you're good at it, so you should pursue it. You know you hate this job and you're bad at it, so you should avoid it. And then there's two categories in the middle of how you developers explore your interests or skills. So I like it because it kind of takes two pieces into account and works come together.
Speaker 2:But I'm telling you like, I still encourage people to have a therapist or a or somebody who understands that test in particular, a career counselor or someone to sit down with you and give the results because, for example, I had somebody one time where, like, all of the results said like avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid. And they were freaked out by it because they said it basically says they shouldn't do anything. And I and I was able to talk with them and how they had actually not been feeling confident in their skills so that all of their results were lower because they haven't been confident in their skills. And then that's something to work through separately and we were able to find, like, if we shifted that scale a little bit, we were able to find some things that match. So I still encourage, like, even those unless it's like black and white, clear cut kind of answers I encourage people to really get professional feedback or help if they can, because there is that risk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean just to have somebody to process through with them. That isn't that. Maybe isn't their parent or it isn't someone who is really close to them. I think that makes a lot of sense Just have a couple of sessions with somebody, or you know more than that or less than that, but that they can kind of walk through, so you know. The other thing I'm thinking is I can imagine a teen or two out there that maybe they take this assessment and maybe they even walk through all four categories with their parent and still at the end of the day they're like I don't know what I want to do and I don't even care about figuring it out, because most people switch their major. Anyway, why do I care? Now? Are there other growth areas that parents can kind of push toward for their teen? Even if it isn't, this is exactly what I want my career to look like.
Speaker 2:I. A lot of times, when somebody doesn't have any clue on what they want to do, I encourage them to one not do anything training related. So what that means for parents is your, your teen might not go straight from high school to college because that might, unfortunately, that might actually waste money. What they find is that, for example, students who take a gap year we're starting to hear that a little bit more about students who take a gap year oftentimes as they use that time to kind of explore some of their interests. And you can do that by volunteering or by even just getting a job in a facility that like matches or an industry that matches what you're kind of leaning towards. It's kind of like a trying on clothes, I guess. But if students take that time when they know nothing about what they want to do, it can give them a little bit more space to breathe and think. When we make those pressure prompted decisions, it can actually lead us to picking the first thing that makes sense, even if it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1:For us Absolutely, and you know I've known plenty of kids and my I say kids. I've known plenty of young people in my role as an instructor for college students where they college just was the thing they were supposed to do. You know they really could have benefited from probably that gap year or some of the work that you're talking about. Now that you know we're intentional as parents in helping our kids explore some of these things and maybe get some work experience or an internship ahead of time so that our kids can start to kind of work through some of those things before they get to college.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the other thing too, that I think and this is something that I've been spending extra time in, just to make sure that I'm not crazy, I'm not just making this stuff up but they actually have found that students who do change their majors and things like that, it increases their chances of graduating. I mean, unfortunately, graduation, like dropout rates, are significantly high for freshmen and sophomores, and I think that's partly because they go in not knowing what they want to do. But if they change their majors, what they're finding is those students who change their majors have like an 80 to 84% chance of graduating, which is significantly higher than I think it's like 50% of students as a whole. And I think a part of that is because they suddenly figure out hey, this is what I actually want to do, and they start pursuing it and they stay with it because they have figured out with they, you know who they want to be and how they want to pursue that.
Speaker 2:And also this was something I actually learned in all of this is that it doesn't always increase the length of time that you're in school if you change your major. That's one of the myths we have that oh, if you change your major, you're going to be there for this year. The reality is it also wouldn't change our major. We can renew our motivation and focus so that we work harder and have classes in different no-transcript faster. So I would encourage parents like, if your student doesn't seem happy in the major they chose, they're just starting colleges and so I encourage them to look at maybe some of the other options within their program, because I think it can be really good for them to switch majors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and I think it's. I think it's an important thing that we say here that normalizing that for our teams they, even if they go through all of this and they feel really confident that they have figured out what they want to do. Normalizing that it's okay to change your major, it likely to happen. You may shift your career at some point and that doesn't mean failure. Yeah, right, I mean, I'm sure you've probably had your share of discussions with clients about you know that fear of saying I failed, if I'm, if I'm gonna switch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it's not. It's not true and that's a hard thing, right. It's not true that it's a failure, it's actually. It's more true that it's a step in the direction of to be a sound like your true past kind of idea, but just that you're getting to that point of making that decision. I feel like we need to. You know, we put that pressure on teams to make the decision and the parents like we forget sometimes how often we change our minds. You know, like I like I love counseling and I'm in counseling, but I also really love career work and I'm kind of pursuing that in the in the side right now. But like I don't think it's fair for us to expect our teams to pick a lifetime career, because it is very rare for people to pick a career and never change it.
Speaker 1:Right, but that doesn't make this kind of work, even during the two years, unhelpful, right? Exactly. It doesn't make this a waste of time, even if they are going to shift, because we're still learning about who our kids are and they are learning who they are.
Speaker 2:Yep, exactly, and I think a lot of times when I'm working with teams, I try and encourage them don't think about you know, if you're going to be doing this at 50. Think about, like, the next five to ten years. Yeah, that don't. Don't imagine how this is going to fulfill your life. Just think about how it's going to help you for the next five to ten years and that's what I usually do with high schoolers especially.
Speaker 1:I love that, I love that. So, as we sort of wrap up a little bit here, what is kind of one thing that maybe you didn't get a chance to kind of talk about, or maybe kind of one take home message whatever feels right to you that you have for folks, about career, work and teens- so I think for me at least, it's especially for teenagers it's to really help parents not be afraid of talking through changing minds and things like that with their teams that the traditional path is not always the best path, and so don't be scared to ask.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm in a different boat because I'm the counselor and an unbiased party in some way, but I think it's good, as parents, to approach things with your teams as, hey, this is all normal to for it to be hard and I'm here to help. What are the best ways that I can help? Or even asking some of the questions that maybe we know are in there, like should they take that year, or are they school the right choice for them or not? Just the what do you want to do or where do you want to go? But the bigger questions are how do you feel about this?
Speaker 1:I love that because I think kids get that what do you want to be when you grow up? Question so often that they sort of just stop actually thinking about it and just give some sort of like blanket response and then it kind of ends there yeah well, I am really excited about what you have coming up with, your new website, your new explorations of all of these things. So tell folks how they can find you, either for the career work you're doing or even for counseling.
Speaker 2:So I just started a website I say just because it's very, you know, very basic at the moment and I'm learning web development as I go but it is called creativecareerjourneycom and I'm there. I'm just at the moment posting blog posts, kind of talking about some of the things I'm sharing here, but also my hope is to kind of, in the future, build on that and create speaking opportunities. I also love I mean I do the career work here at Still Waters, but I have a four session kind of package that you can sign up for to do career work and I work with people based on. You know how much of that I think they need. So those are two ways that I'm kind of out there in the career world to that website and then also through contacting me here at Still Waters during months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's great and, as always, my website is Make Words Matter for Goodcom, and on Facebook I am MWM Make Words Matter MWM with kids, and you can follow along with the blog posts and kind of ongoing trainings that I have on Facebook, which do you have a Facebook yet? No, not yet. Okay, that's next on the list, though, right.
Speaker 2:That's next on the list.
Speaker 1:Yes, and maybe by the time this airs, you will have a Facebook.
Speaker 2:It's very possible. It will also be titled Creative Career Journeys, if I get it running, yes.
Speaker 1:Creative Career Journeys. Yeah, great, I love it. I'm so thankful for you and you all of these tips for parents and teens. I think it's so good to have that in the forefront for us as parents of teens, and I know there's going to be lots of folks who get some amazing stuff from just doing this, so I really appreciate you being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. Okay, until next time, y'all see ya, bye.