Ep70: Navigating Sex and Intimacy in Relationships: A Candid Conversation with Therapist Liz Polinsky

Are you and your partner struggling to communicate about sex and intimacy? Join us as I talk with Elizabeth "Liz" Polinsky, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Licensed Clinical Social Worker who specializes in Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. Liz offers her expertise on navigating conversations about sexual desire, boundaries, and past experiences, while also shedding light on the impact of sexual trauma and societal messages on our relationships.

Dive into the complexities of sexual distress within relationships and learn how to determine when it's time to seek help. We discuss the intricacies of infidelity, balancing different levels of sexual desire, and finding harmony during the early stages of a relationship. With Liz's guidance, you'll gain valuable insights and practical tools to strengthen your emotional and sexual connection with your partner.

Finally, we address the often-taboo subject of non-monogamy and its role in healthy relationships. Together, we explore the shift in cultural attitudes towards monogamy, the differences between infidelity and non-monogamy, and how to approach these hard conversations with your partner. By the end of this episode, you'll feel empowered to embrace your sexual desires, navigate differences in adventurousness, and understand the nuances between sex drive and emotional closeness. Don't miss this candid and informative discussion with the insightful Liz Polinsky!


Elizabeth Polinsky is a marriage counselor and the host of The Communicate & Connect Podcast for Military Relationships. 

Counseling Website: www.ElizabethPolinskyCounseling.com

Podcast Website: www.communicateandconnectpodcast.com 

Facebook & Instagram: @LizPolinsky

This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast

Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com

If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6 

Transcript

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 0:12

All right, welcome back, dear listener. I am glad that you decided to join today, and I am really excited that my guest today has joined back again. Liz, you're you're I just said you're like a veteran. You have your own podcast also, so this is just totally in your wheelhouse. But, either way, i'm glad you said yes to being here, because you know this episode is something that I think we don't talk enough about, and so I'm excited that we can talk about it. So I'll introduce myself really quickly.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 0:47

I'm the host, dr Beth Tramell, and I'm a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the master's and mental health counseling program, and my focus is to make words matter for good, and so I try to use this podcast as a way to share words for good in the world. Frankly And I've asked Elizabeth Polinsky to join me, liz to talk about sex and intimacy in couples, because I know you have a lot of experience with couples work, and so I'm glad you said yes. So, if you in mind, could you introduce yourself to our lovely listeners and tell us one fun thing about you.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 1:27

Yes, happy to. Thanks for having me back. I do love podcasts. They're probably my favorite way of of intaking all the information And I think, especially when it comes to topics related to mental health and relationships, what such a wonderful way to share information that that clinicians have with people. So I'm really excited. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist and a licensed clinical social worker. I do emotionally focused couple therapy, which is the type of therapy for couples that has the most research to support it, and I am certified in that, and I'm now a supervisor and training for it, which is also really exciting. That's fun, gosh. You know I think this is probably my third time being on this podcast, so if anyone heard me before, they knew I was in a PhD program. I'm in my data collection phase, yes, so, yes, the end is very much in sight. End is here Almost. It's very close, yeah, so that that could be my fun fact for people who have heard heard my journey before on previous episodes.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 2:38

I love that. And so what is your? you know what is your optimal timeline.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 2:43

For graduation? Yeah, by December. So I'll like you know, the ceremony happens once a year or whatever, but I'll get my degree right away. And yes, gosh, you know, if I am rocking and rolling maybe even by the end of October, but for sure by December that's just depends on.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 3:04

The end really is in sight.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 3:05

It really, really is.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 3:07

Yeah, i know there were days where you thought it wasn't ever going to come.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 3:11

Yes.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 3:12

Yeah.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 3:12

Tracks me. I'm very glad, and something that is also maybe a fun fact is that in the next, probably in about a month, i'll be starting my process to become do all the training to become a certified sex therapist. So so you know, if you catch me again in a year, i'll have probably a lot more things to say about this topic.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 3:37

That's really incredible. Actually, i mean, maybe we need to do another episode in a year, once you're certified, because you'll probably have a wealth of additional information that would be perfect for this podcast.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 3:50

Yeah, happy to. So I've worked with couples around sex. You know, couples therapy is pretty much what I do. Very rarely do I do individual counseling. So but I would say, even when I did do individual counseling before couples therapy, i mostly worked with people who had experienced some sort of sexual trauma, And so sex was always a big conversation that we were having around sexual trauma and how do I, how do I feel comfortable with sex again, how do I feel good being a sexual being again? And then it absolutely comes up in couples relationships. Yeah, you know, all the time it's one of the big three sex, parenting, money that are the big conflict topics. Hot spots Yes, thank you.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 4:35

Topics Yeah, i love that And it's why I asked if you would come back. You know, i think, as I think about the work that I've done with couples, it certainly is not as extensive as the work that you've done, but I know the the importance of sex and intimacy in both. I would think, in kind of all kinds of couples, right, that it's we're. We're talking about the folks that maybe, yeah, have experienced sexual trauma in their background, but maybe those that haven't. You know, as I, as I started thinking about some of the things we might talk about, you know, for me it's, there are so many reasons why having this conversation is so important. One is I don't think we talk about it enough.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 5:27

You know, i think you and I and other therapists or psychologists or social workers around the world, we get to hear behind closed doors what happens to people, their struggle, their you know kind of the life that's happening around their, their intimacy and sex life, right.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 5:42

So we kind of have an idea because we've talked to other people, maybe we've studied it, research, that sort of thing, but I think the regular person doesn't really have the kind of real conversation around sex and everything that goes with it.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 5:56

I think the other problem is that we have all of these messages in the world, both in our past and in our current everyday life, right? All of the images I have seen in my own life, all of the messages I've received from my parents, from teachers, from, you know, past relationships around sex and intimacy, bridge or 10, for heaven's sakes, right, like we're all kind of seeing all of these messages that we then believe are what should happen in our own relationships, because we're not talking to other people about it, we're not finding out what's normal, we're certainly not googling what is sex supposed to be like on our work laptops, so we don't have anywhere to get this information about what's normal or not normal, and so I think we're looking to other outlets to figure out is this how it's supposed to be? And those messages are not what normal relationships look like, right?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 7:00

Yeah, they're in there from the entertainment industry. Yes, i like, whether whether that's like not like normal shows like Bridgerton, or porn or or even romance novels, yes, yes, there's so so many ways that those are all you know they're, they're created to, to peak sexual desire. Yeah, versus, to reflect what does a real relationship look like? how do people navigate sex as a couple And what does it look like? You know, thinking about Bridgerton right now, and I totally binge, binge watched all of it. You know, and I've done that a couple of times, but you know they they've known each other. What a few months by the time they get married.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 7:45

Yeah, that's real.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 7:47

Yeah, what's, what's it like when you've been with your partner for years or decades, and how do you navigate sex together? Yeah, what is it like to to have sex with a family member at that point versus sex with a stranger?

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 8:03

Yeah, okay, so let's just start unpacking it. I mean, i love what you said, that it's just good awareness for us to remind ourselves that the entertainment industry their goal is not to, not to reflect real life relationships, right. Their goal you said your, their goal is to peak and sexual desire. Right, like that's what they want the consumer of either the novel or the movie or the series. That's their goal. Not to be like this is how you do relationships, friends.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 8:35

Yes, yeah.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 8:38

So let's just start unpacking it. Where do you want to start? you know what is what is normal, what? how do I know what is healthy? I mean, i think there's this. I even was curious as I was sort of doing this intro. It's like are we talking about what's normal or what's healthy, and are they the same?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 8:57

Oh, so many good things to talk about.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 9:01

So I sort of was like well, i'm gonna let Liz decide how she wants to do this. Are we talking about what's normal? are we talking about what's healthy? because I don't know that. I don't know if they're the same thing.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 9:10

Gosh. Well, that is always an interesting question, isn't it? I think there is a range there. There's a lot of things that are normal, yeah, and that are common experiences, and I would say that a lot of them probably are within a normal, healthy range, yeah. And then, and even things that could be normal and could be healthy could be distressing for couples. Yeah, that's good Like, so. So at what point is something unhealthy? Yeah, gosh, i think I'm more interested in thinking about is it distressing for the couple and the relationship? Yep, versus, is it healthy or not? or how normal is it? because, again, some things can be really normal and and healthy, but they could still be distressing.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 10:05

So I think that's brilliant. I mean, i think that's brilliant And I need people to just like hear what you said. I think that maybe where most of us get caught up, is this normal or is this healthy? And it's like what is normal and healthy for one couple is going to be not normal, not healthy, for another couple. And so you're saying, hey, think less about it being normal, healthy, not normal, not healthy, and more like, is this causing distress in your relationship? Yes, and maybe you don't get rid of you know, normal and healthy or whatever, but but let's start here. Let's start with is there distress in the relationship as a result of something within your sexual life?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 10:51

Yes, Yeah, i'm, because I'm finding myself like scrolling through couples that I've worked with.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 10:58

Some couples feel totally fine about porn use. They watch it together. They're, they're very comfortable. It doesn't, it's not distressing in any way And they're, they're good. No reason to talk about it, yep. Other other couples have, like even been upset when somebody was scrolling on Instagram and saw a provocative photo that was placed on Instagram. They didn't go out necessarily searching for porn, but it caused a massive, you know, argument, fight.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 11:34

the person feels cheated on. So this is very individualized. Yeah, and this is more in the infidel like what's considered infidelity for each couple range. But it this same sort of thing could happen in terms of frequency of sex. Some couples have sex more frequently than others, and if one individual in a in a couple has a higher sex drive, they want sex more frequently. The other one wants it less frequently. Both of those could be healthy and not not healthy.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 11:55

And if one individual in a in a couple has a higher sex drive, they want sex more frequently. The other one wants it less frequently. Both of those could be healthy and normal, in a healthy and normal range. So then it's it's again. Is it distressing? Some couples find, find a way to navigate that. And they're like, yeah, we're just different people and it's fine, and for other people it causes a lot of tension to have that sort of tension, sort of personality difference, difference in sexual desire Yeah, so is it distressing to the couple? Yeah, sort of. To wrap right right back around, Yeah, i mean, i think that's.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 12:34

I mean I think it's such a good place to start. I think it because we all have so many varied experiences around our own sexual history, our own perception around what's normal even going into any relationship, that I think identifying what is it that's going to make this relationship work in a healthy way, aka is it distressing to the couple? I think it's a great place for people to start.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 13:03

Yeah, so I'm, i guess I'm thinking like, where are the places that I see distress around sex? Yeah, and I'm thinking you know what is and is not in fidelity? Yeah, is one? Yeah, the sexual level of sexual desire? Yep, level of adventurous? Yeah, that's good, i think. Yeah, those are the things that I see most frequently.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 13:28

Yeah, i think those are broad And I think they kind of fit a lot of the specific scenarios that I have also experienced with couples I've worked with, and so how about we just start with the first one What is or isn't infidelity?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 13:44

Yeah, i'm sorry, i did think of another one. Okay, go Level of monogamy is the other one. Okay, that can come up as well.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 13:52

So I think we talk about maybe what is or isn't fidelity and then the level of monogamy, because that I think maybe there are some good tie-ins to both those topics, and then we'll talk through the last couple of ideas and see if there's anything else that comes to mind. Yeah, that works for me. How do people you know in air quotes people how do people define infidelity? How do we as experts define infidelity?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 14:21

I think there are two components that I use. One is that it broke an agreement or a perceived agreement, and the second one is that it was secret.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 14:32

Okay.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 14:34

And this is a really important part. It goes right into how monogamous or non-monogamous a couple is. The thing that makes something an affair versus ethical non-monogamy is. Is it a secret, Or is it something that we openly talked about and agreed to?

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 14:54

Yeah.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 14:56

So those are the factors that I would be thinking about And, in terms of infidelity, when I'm thinking about did it break an agreement or a perceived agreement, this can be really range for whether it feels like infidelity to the person who feels betrayed. So texting an ex I've had some couples where they're like that was not okay, that's a betrayal, whereas some other couples are like they, so they texted an ex. Whatever, you know, it'll deal. Yeah, it really just varies on what each person feels like is the boundaries that they want to have around the relationship And it really becomes a big. I think it's.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 15:51

The largest time periods of tension seem to be in the beginning phases, when we're building a relationship and we're trying to figure out what our boundaries are, especially if I sort of like assume that I'm you think how I think and we haven't really talked about it. Then there can be a lot of conflict in that early dating, early marriage period. And then there are, of course, betrayals, where couples have been married for years, for decades, and then someone goes outside of the relationship knowing that they were doing something that would break the person's trust is not something they would have agreed on and then kept it secret.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 16:30

I love this frame around what infidelity is. right, that it's this broken agreement or, you know, this broken perceived agreement we had and that it was done in secret, right That I didn't tell my partner about it, mm-hmm, so, as you were talking about kind of those early phases of the relationship as we're building, it feels like I can imagine a listener who is like oh yeah, that's kind of me. you know, i'm kind of in the early phases of either my marriage or just another relationship I'm in, but it feels weird to bring up sex. It feels like I don't know how to talk about this agreement, right? So how do I establish agreements around sex and intimacy in those early phases or maybe not, maybe later in the relationship?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 17:26

either way, So I know in a previous episode we talked about marriage meetings. I always loved those and in fact my husband and I started doing them when we were dating. We were just maybe like three months in, but you know, I waited until I had the official girlfriend title. but then once that came, I was like we are doing these meetings And so then sex is an item on that and it sort of forces a conversation about it. I think when in doubt, like talk about it.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 17:59

So, like if I was thinking about reaching out to a previous partner, I would probably want to have the frame of like I want to be as transparent as possible. See, when I think about trust. so infidelity is all about broken trust. How would I go about doing whatever it is I want to do without breaking my partner's trust? That would be the question. There is research that talks about like.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 18:30

these are the three important things for trust. Can't remember them all right now, but part of it is predictability. One of them is predictability, And so if I can create a culture where we're both transparent and I can predict that I'm going to be transparent and my partner is going to be transparent about things, then we can build up that trust. So if I wanted to text my ex talking like telling my partner hey, I'm thinking about doing this. How do you feel about it Meaning concerns or if it came up with porn, or wanting to open up a relationship, to be non-monogamous or wanting to try something more adventurous with sex, It would be. I would say sorry, my brain just went to the adventure during sex thing. I was thinking the time is not during sex to have the conversation, But maybe another time.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 19:33

Yeah, so even if folks don't have this monthly meeting right, because you've been once a month, right, do you have like a worksheet or something that you have folks some sort of structure around the topics for the monthly meeting? I'm sure it's available on your website, maybe.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 19:50

Yeah, Yeah, it's not available on my counseling website but it is in my podcast website. So the Communicate and Connect podcast, great, and there is an episode entirely on marriage meetings with a downloadable form for people to know the topics that I recommend covering or to create their own version if they don't want to do all the topics.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 20:15

That's great. We'll link to that in the episode here. Okay, so I have another question that's come up around this And I know it's not necessarily specifically about. Well, i mean, all of this connection stuff relates to sex and intimacy, right. But I'm picturing the person who, let's say, they dated somebody in their work life And so their ex is somebody that they see fairly regularly. And so I've heard from clients before. They say I'm not going to be transparent, i can't tell my partner about my interaction with this person because I trust me. I know that I'm not going to do anything with this person, but if I tell my partner about my interactions or that my ex is even around there, if I bring up my ex's name at all, then my partner gets really upset. They start to distrust me. When I know it's over, i know there's nothing that's going to happen. So have you heard a similar story from folks? Oh, yeah.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 21:25

Yeah, i'm not going to bring it up, i'm not going to talk about it because it's just going to freak them out And I know I'm not going to do anything. So how do we help that person realize like, yeah, it's a little more complicated. I get that, and it still doesn't mean keep it a secret.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 21:45

Yeah, It actually does more damage to the relationship. So they're not wrong. I mean, I mean I don't know, maybe their partner will freak out. Maybe they've had past relationships where a partner freaked out And so they're nervous to tell the new partner and they may not actually know for sure what their partner's reaction will be. If their partner does freak out and react, that is okay. You can repair after a freak out and a react like that And the goal would be to repair and to work through it as a couple.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 22:24

That does not necessarily mean the person needs to leave their job. Yeah, there are. There are so many ways to work through it And like, if it, if it was somebody that was an affair partner, like a long, a long term affair partner, I could see where leaving the job and the working together would cause more damage to the relationship. But in the case of oh, I have this x from a long time ago, most couples can work through through things like that. I think it's a larger problem that the person feels like I can't tell my partner things that will upset them. Yeah, we don't have. we don't have the strength in our relationship to work through upsetting things. Yeah, yeah, I guess I see that as the larger problem And that keeping it a secret does more damage, for when the partner finds out down the road damages trust more and is indicative of a larger underlying problem.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 23:26

Yeah, i mean, as you're talking, i'm like this is precisely the things you learn in therapy. I mean that's precisely what this is about, right, that it's like folks will come in and they'll be like our sex life is terrible. She doesn't trust me at work And I've got this, you know, x, you know person of mine, but my partner wants me to quit my job And it's like, well, actually, what you're going to learn in therapy is that our focus is the underlying piece, right, that you don't feel like you have a strong enough foundation to have hard conversations about real feelings, and you know that's the part of really digging in and therapy. So I love that you bring it back to that. That's. It's really just perfect.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 24:11

So, yeah, okay, so let's talk about level of monogamy right now. Yeah, this is really. I mean, maybe maybe we have listeners who are very familiar with this word monogamy. Maybe they have, you know, in their own relationship or they know lots of folks who you know use this word a lot. But let's just kind of dig into, you know, i think, well, I guess I'll kind of say it, you know, like, i think there is a lot of messaging around. Quote normal relationships are monogamous relationships. Would you say that's true, that, like quote, we're back to that normal slash, healthy thing, right?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 24:59

Yes, yeah, yes, that's a great way to tie that back in. Yes, i think in our culture, yep, in our place in time, especially with sort of the historical context of the like Judeo Christian upbringing of the United States, this is what is the most common relationship pattern that is seen around you and that is portrayed in media and things like that. That's right, but that has not always been the case Historically. There have been like throughout town or time, throughout town.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 25:40

This is a new way to think about it. throughout town, i've never heard this way of thinking about it.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 25:45

Throughout time. I think I was going back to Bridgerton. You know the town.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 25:53

We just can't get Bridgerton out of our mind. now We're screwed.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 25:55

Yeah, so, okay, yeah, throughout time, marriages were, were not about love at all. They were, they were just like political agreements. Political agreements, yeah, yes, exactly. And so it was very common for people to have love relationships outside of their marriage because marriage wasn't the love, was not the focus of that. Yeah, so in in our current modern day, we have all sorts of different variations of consensual non monogamy or ethical non monogamy. There are lots of different ways that people structure non monogamous relationships. Sometimes it, i think I would would probably rank it as like spectrums of do we want to be engaging in more sex, and it's kind of about sex, or do we want to also allow ourselves to love other people?

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 26:54

Hmm.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 26:55

And how much preference does one partner get over another? Yeah, partner Yeah these are sort of the element elements that distinguish the different types of categories of non monogamy.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 27:09

And so it's important that we clarify I'm and I'm I'm going to go out on a limb here And you can correct me if I'm wrong. Right, So the difference between infidelity and non monogamy is that contract, Yes, And the secrecy right.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 27:28

So it's hey, there's no binding contract that says this, or the contract is different, that the agreement is different, and we're not doing this in secret, right? We are communicating and we are telling one another about what our expectations are and what our expectations are And what our other relationships are going to be about, or like, would you say, that's true.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 27:50

Yes, yeah, there are so many intricacies. Yeah, sure, because there are so many variations of how real, how relationships can look, but I think that overall is a good, is a good summary.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 28:04

Yeah, so, as you know, kind of one of those hot topics around sex and intimacy, right? I'm assuming what you're saying is there are some. You know, one part of the couple wants to have, you know, ethical non monogamy And the other couple is either not sure or doesn't. And so, working through, how do we do this in a way that's not distressing for us as a couple?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 28:34

Yes, yeah, this is a, i think I think a relatively common reason that couples come to couples counseling. Yeah Is to sort of navigate that together, to try to navigate the conversation.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 28:47

Yeah.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 28:48

To start Yeah, and then if they do, if they were, if the original agreement was monogamy, then they often will like to have support through the process of trying different things and finding what feels like it could work for them.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 29:06

Yeah, i mean I can. I can definitely see that right That if we're focused on this sort of couples work is to try to minimize distressing situations, minimize overall distress in the relationship, because the higher the level of distress it seems like probably the also higher level of mistrust or other communication problems or connection problems or whatever. Right, so that all would make a lot of sense.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 29:37

Yeah, i'm thinking about this topic of healthy, and so I am, just because I've realized that not everyone is super familiar with non-monogamy or the variations of it, so I'll just add this in here The research shows that non-monogamous relationships can be just as healthy and have a secure attachment bond. Yeah as monogamous relationship structures.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 30:11

So for anyone, there have to be some people that don't believe you.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 30:15

Yes, of course, yeah. So this is why I'm gonna say this right here Yeah, because we have research that shows it.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 30:22

Yeah, right, it's like it's not just you and a few folks that agree. I mean, we've done the trials to look at a variety of I mean lots and lots and lots of couples, right, we're not just talking about small, tiny cohorts of folks. So I love that And I hope that folks can hear that throughout this whole episode, we continue to keep coming back to the fact that relationships can look very different, and so if you find yourself stuck in some negative thought patterns because of what should be happening in your relationship, you're in the comparison trap, and that's not a great place for you to be.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 31:13

I'm so glad you brought it back to the comparison trap, because when it comes to, i think, all of these topics about sex, so much of it is comparison. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What does it mean to me that my partner didn't orgasm? Yep, sex. What does it mean to me that we have sex this much versus this month, many times per week or per month or whatever, and that often the story is often something's wrong. Or my partner doesn't really want me, yep, or all my partner wants is sex, yes, and then they don't want me, for me, you know.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 31:54

Like he or she, or they do not appreciate me for who I am. They only just want to have sex with me, or I'm gonna withhold sex because my partner did something or didn't do something, rather than communicate about that something.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 32:14

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 32:15

I'm just gonna just withhold the thing that I know they want.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 32:19

Yes, so now we're getting into what are the behaviors that I do when I am believing this comparison story.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 32:28

Yeah, that's good.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 32:29

And then how does that create more conflict in our relationship when I have these sort of reactive behaviors that are stemming from a story that I'm believing around what is good or right or normal or healthy and what should be in regard to our sex life?

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 32:49

Yep, instead of having a conversation in a way that you're able to sort of understand one another's viewpoint And if you're in a relationship where you don't feel like you can have that kind of conversation, this is precisely the time to talk to a therapist. Have somebody there who is trained to help you have these conversations. And what I often talk with folks about is that sometimes therapy is just the catalyst right. So you and I are people that train. We sort of try to work ourselves out of a job. You know, i would love for couples to come for four to eight sessions, learn some new ways of communicating, learn some new ways of interacting with one another and then keep practicing. Therapy's not necessarily a lifelong commitment for everybody. Who's, you know, thinking about therapy?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 33:40

Yeah, absolutely. There's the full spectrum of like how deep do you wanna go? Yep. If you want tips and concrete skills that you can go do, that can be done really quickly. Yeah. If you want to like feel like, how do we navigate when we each get insecure, this is probably a longer term work Yeah, especially if you're opening up a relationship that brings up so many more feelings of insecurity Yep.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 34:16

Okay, so we've got two more to talk about.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 34:20

Okay, i haven't been keeping track, so you are okay level of adventurousness.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 34:27

Uh-huh Is another topic that couples often sort of struggle with around sex and intimacy, right, mm-hmm. I wonder if there are some of this same comparison trap here, right where I saw this show or I watched this pornography or I read about it in a book, or I heard one of my friends talking about this is what they do. I just wonder if that's also at the heart of some of this struggle.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 34:53

Yes, i definitely think so. Yeah, and I find myself thinking like they're. I'm thinking about the stories.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 35:02

Uh-huh.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 35:03

There could be a story about. you know, this is what we need to be doing, Yep. We need to be more adventurous in order for it to be good sex.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 35:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 35:14

Land vanilla sex, oh Lord, yeah, that's a society story right there.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 35:19

It sure is.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 35:20

And as well as, is there a story that I'm believing about what my partner wants sexually?

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 35:27

that I haven't really talked about, or that I think that they need to organize them. And then I'm also thinking about stories. Uh, i'm thinking like one partner could be like, ooh, i need to be adventurous to keep my partner interested in sex with me. And then the other partner could be seeing oh man, they're really adventurous. They don't think I'm good enough and I'm not like girls in porn and I'm not, you know. And then it creates feelings of insecurity. They want to be less adventurous. And then the other person is like oh God, i'm failing here at being adventurous enough for you. And then this is just a huge misunderstanding between them, because sex feels like a taboo topic.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 36:15

And you know a reminder to what you said earlier that adventurousness in the heat of the moment is not necessarily the time to have that conversation, sort of surprising your partner with this conversation in the middle of the moment is not the time.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 36:34

Not if it's something brand new.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 36:36

Yeah.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 36:37

Yeah.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 36:38

Yeah.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 36:39

Yeah. So I think level of adventurousness, for sure, I think. And then there are times where, well, i'm getting often to like some people have very specific things that they've always wanted to try, like something like in the kink realm. Yeah, people come in with preferences already and also things that they've never done, that they want to try, And it can be hard to talk through that and navigate that as a couple.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 37:09

Well, and I think again back to sort of that piece we talked about earlier in terms of things you learn in therapy. It's like the underlying issues of you know. Well, when my partner brings it up, i feel like I have to say yes. And what's making me feel like I have to say yes, they're not really pressuring me, or maybe they are pressuring me, and what is that about? Right? So if there are pieces of that dynamic that you're feeling, then you know, having somebody help you, like a therapist, work through those issues, may be really important.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 37:43

Yes, that can be huge, because there can be times where someone is pressuring somebody else with levels of intentionality, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not intentionally.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 37:54

Right.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 37:54

Then there could also be someone where I'm trying to be really thoughtful and caring for you, not pressuring you at all, but you feel pressure from your own life, your own history. Yep, to say yes, to say yes, mm-hmm. Yep. So that is definitely something to work through with a couple's counselors, yep.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 38:15

It's great. Okay, And the last one that we brought up, and certainly not the last thing to talk about, with sex and intimacy, I'm like I can't wait until she gets this certification I can come back and have like yeah me too, i'm excited.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 38:26

For more episodes because it feels like there's a whole lot to unpack here. But I think this is probably the most common struggle that I hear from couples is sort of a difference in level of sexual desire And that usually translates to the frequency of sexual. you know sexual encounters right, whether that's intercourse or it's some other sort of sexual encounter.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 38:52

Mm-hmm, when I have seen this, sometimes it's about sex drive, but I actually think it's sort of like sex drive is the term that people know to refer to it, but it is actually tends to be about I want to be emotionally close to you, that's right, yep. And one person wants to feel close to the other one, so they're initiating sex a lot to try to generate that closeness, yep. And the other one is wanting to feel close. They sort of need to feel close before they can access their sexual, the part of sexual parts of themselves, yep. And so for them, i can't get to sex until I feel close to you, yep. And so that can seem like a sex drive difference, but it's actually a difference in we both want to be close, but we have different ways of going about trying to be close.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 39:49

That's right. Yeah, we have different ways of achieving emotional closeness.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 39:52

Yeah, and so then, if they can find a way to navigate being emotionally close together without this sort of pattern taking over, then sex becomes much easier for both of them.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 40:07

Yeah, i mean, i have had countless conversations where it feels almost simplistic, where one side of the couple will say, well, if they would just do some additional things around the house, it would lighten my load. And I had one couple that I'll sort of never forget. The female side of this particular couple said, yeah, watching him do chores is like foreplay to me, and so it was almost like this prescription. It's like, okay, you do chores once a day and she'll want to have sex with you more. And it's not always that simplistic, obviously, but I think, as you can learn to navigate some of those issues, sometimes it can be like, oh, i didn't realize that that's how you felt close to me.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 41:04

Yeah, people can have very like. they have a different personality. They can have different styles of what makes them feel close. Yeah, like love languages. People talk about love languages all the time. This is a good analogy of this.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 41:22

Yeah, i also, you know, i'll talk to some folks who kind of want to know the number, right, like okay, so for real, like how many times a week am I supposed to be having sex? And I will sometimes recommend they explore the Kinsey Institute's website. I'm obviously affiliated with IU but I have kind of always at least in this part of the country has been kind of a research institute that has a lot of factual information around sex And I just sort of pulled up their website and they have an FAQ section. It's very accessible, right. So if you want to have some anonymous ways of gathering information, i sometimes send folks to the Kinsey Institute website and I can link that. There. Are there places where you send folks for information.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 42:17

Yeah, i really like Lori Watson. She is she, oh gosh, she has. She's an EFT couples therapist also And she has, like her, phd in sexology or something. But she's got a podcast called Foreplay Sex Radio.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 42:35

Okay.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 42:36

And so that has a lot of great information. If you're like a podcast person, like we both are, then that has a lot of really great information. I think the book Come As You Are is really great for women, especially around female orgasm. I have like a resource page on my website where I keep some of these things. This one is on my counseling website, so Elizabeth Polinsky Counseling And if you go under the About section, there's a recommended resources page where you can see the books that I tend to tend to recommend. Some of them, Yeah, so I have Come As You Are on there, Wanting Sex More or Wanting Sex Again is another one. So that's, those are places you could find those books.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 43:26

That's incredible, and we already did kind of the last part of how do people find you in the work you're doing. Is there anything else you want to tell folks How they can find you? Anything? you forgot Any last comments before we say goodbye.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 43:40

Nope, i think, like my counseling website ElizabethPolinskyCounselingcom. And then the podcast which focuses a lot on military and veteran couples is the Communicate and Connect podcast for military relationships. People could find that at CommunicateAndConnectPodcastcom.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 43:56

I'm so glad you said yes to being here. I know that you will probably have lots more to say, And so I can't wait for the next episode of this part part two or three or four or five. But yeah, I just am grateful for just the way you frame things for folks and sort of sharing the information in a way that we can digest it, which I think is incredible. So thanks for saying yes to being here today.

Liz Polinsky, LMFT, LCSW: 44:22

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP: 44:23

It's always a pleasure. All right until next time, listeners. Thanks for tuning in.