Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep65: Breaking the Silence: Understanding Suicide, Intervention Strategies, and the Impact on First Responders
There's no easy way to talk about suicide, but isn't it time we stopped shying away from this challenging topic? We're sitting down with Dr. Rosalie Aldrich, a dear friend, colleague, and expert on suicide, to shed light on this silent epidemic. We delve into her research, discuss how to recognize signs of someone at risk, and broach practical strategies on how we can motivate interventions.
Imagine if we could equip ourselves with the knowledge and tools to potentially save a life. In our conversation with Dr. Aldrich, we explore practical intervention strategies, sharing a variety of ways to reach out and understand that intervention may take more than one attempt. We shed light on the prevalence of suicide in the US, and its dreadful impact on different age groups, especially those aged 20-34 years.
While discussing suicide, we also need to talk about those who witness its aftermath. What happens to our first responders, the firefighters, EMTs, and police officers who deal with suicide cases? Dr. Aldrich and Julie Cyril, in their research, have discovered how repeated exposure to suicide affects their mental health. We explore their findings and also hear from a police officer about the trauma and guilt they face. This episode is a call to action. It's about understanding the pain, fostering empathy, and, most importantly, providing support. Together, we can make a difference.
If you, or someone you know, is having mental health challenges and is in need of assistance, please contact 988.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
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www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramell. I'm a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I am also the director of the master's and mental health counseling program. You know, it's weird to say that I am excited about this conversation because it's such a you know, such a deep and hard, i think, conversation to have. But I think the reason we feel like it's so hard is because we just don't talk about it enough. And so I am thrilled that my dear friend and colleague, dr Rosalie Aldrich, is here to talk about suicide and how we can feel more equipped to intervene, how we can feel more able to kind of maybe recognize some of those signs and, and how do we gosh, i don't know if grieve is the right way I'm not sure that we'll get all the way into grieving, but just really how it will impact us. So, dr Rose, i'm just so happy you're here. So can you introduce yourself and tell us one fun thing about you?
Speaker 2:Sure, thank you for having me. Well, i am a chair at Indiana University East in the Department of Communication Studies, and one fun thing about me is that I recently got back from Scotland. I was able to take my kids back and we went to go there because we wanted to show our kids. My husband and I met there 23 years ago when we studied abroad, and so we wanted to take them and show them where we met when we were there for a semester. So that was really cool to get to share that with them. And I had a big crush on my husband. We didn't date and we studied abroad within. I got to go there with him as my husband, not just my big crush, so that was fun.
Speaker 1:That is fun. That is fun. And how many days did you spend there? We were there for 17. 17?.
Speaker 2:That's a long day.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got to see the whole app like went around the whole country.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. And the other thing that's fun about you and I is that we love the same game on our phones. We do.
Speaker 2:Two dots. I think they should give you some advertising.
Speaker 1:I know I do this sometimes where I talk about things that I love, there's only a few things that I really love enough to talk about it. This morning, rosalie I mean it was, it was the universe was against me. It kept like freezing. That has never happened before. I love my little like two dots. In the morning, i have coffee and do my little morning routine and I just play two dots for just a little bit. No, it's good puzzle game. It really is a good puzzle game. Okay, so here we are. I'm in mental health, you are in communication studies, but you also have spent a lot of time studying suicide And we're going to talk a little bit about your research. But before we kind of dive in, tell us a little bit about how you got to this work. What was it about this work that really drew you in? because it really has become a big part of what you do as a university.
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, during my master's program I was sort of researching grief a little bit And I found out that grief from death by suicide was quite a bit different than grief by maybe a death by cancer or even an automobile accident, just because there's a lot of guilt and uncertainty and all kinds of stigma surrounding it. And so when I started looking in the communication research, there just wasn't a lot of any sort of research on suicide, let alone the grieving process. So then I got interested in this suicide research And because there was nothing from the communication perspective and all of it was coming from postvention what do we do after this happens? I wanted to get into the well, what can we do to get someone to intervene? Or how do we get people to? how do we persuade someone to intervene? Because it's super scary, people don't know what to do. People don't know what to do because they don't have to look for, because we don't talk about it And it's, you know, even once it's happened sometimes people don't want to talk about it. So that's kind of how I got interested in it And then the more I did do research on what was out there, and it was mostly in the psychology world, it was the age group I was sort of interested in was the college group, because that's what I had access to.
Speaker 2:The research clearly showed in all the intervention not in suicide but in bullying and drinking and sexual assault was they tell their peers, they don't tell their mom and dad, they don't tell their teacher. And so I focused on how do I persuade these college peers to intervene if they think someone's suicidal. And so first I had to figure out how do they know some of the signs and then what would convince them or what would be barriers to get them to intervene and do they know what to do when they intervene? And so that's been a big part of my career is dealing with that and figuring out that basically people really want to intervene.
Speaker 2:They think it will have a positive outcome for the person who they think might be suicidal but it's super scary, and for themselves personally. They think important others would support them in intervening. They think that they have the ability and the resources to intervene and they intend to intervene. So that intention is as far as I've gotten. I don't have the resources to and I don't really know how to set it up to do the actual behavior, because even the reported attempted suicide is so under reported. So right now we've only really have the emergency visits, but that's under reported too. So I have measured intention to intervene and not actual behavior of intervening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it is there. I would intervene, right. Right, i would intervene if I saw this or this or this in my friend or in somebody in my class or whatever, right, yes, yeah, i love that you do this research, and that's why I've invited you to be here, but I also love that this is so practical. I mean, the thing that I hear so often, too, is gosh, i just don't know what to say, right, i don't know what to say. I don't know what to do, and I'm afraid I'm going to say the wrong thing. Is that kind of what you were seeing from folks too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're nervous to say they don't want to say the wrong thing. Yeah, i'm worried that if they say the wrong thing the person will get. They're really worried there to make someone mad. Yeah, that their friends going to be mad at them which I have found that to be the opposite case. It's really shows that you're paying attention to your friend, that you care about them, that you're noticing that they're upset or not themselves. So, yeah, there's a lot of fear in being wrong, even if someone is not suicidal, but you realize that they're having a bad day. That just shows that you're caring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this really goes to this giant myth that we have in this kind of subset world of psychology that this myth is that if I talk about it or if I ask them about it, then I'm going to plant a seed or I'm going to like push them closer toward completing suicide. So can you help us understand why that myth isn't true, or just basically just say that the myth isn't true?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is definitely a myth. It is not true. If someone is thinking about suicide, it's already there. You've not planted that seed. What that can do if you talk about it, is basically you're providing a space for that person to talk about it, you are opening up a conversation for them. You are making that person feel seen. It's going to be that first step to encouraging that person to feel that they have someone to talk about how they're feeling And it really can help their fear go down. You're like okay, this person does care about me. I do have somewhere I can start the conversation with, and they may not talk about it the first time. It may take a couple of times asking them are you thinking about hurting yourself? Are you doing? okay? I know you're going through this. My door is always open. Definitely it's not planting a seed, it's just showing care and that you're willing to talk.
Speaker 1:I share kind of a similar message with folks that I talk to, that it's folks who are in kind of the depths of suicidal thoughts, whether that comes from anxiety or depression or wherever it comes from. It's very lonely there. They feel very alone in these thoughts. I've talked to folks who said they feel crazy, They feel like gosh, why would I have these thoughts? They're scared themselves for having those thoughts And so when we say, hey, are you having thoughts of hurting yourself or are you okay?
Speaker 1:We're saying you're not alone. I'm coming to meet you where you are, I am coming to hold this space for you. I love that you mentioned that, that you're just really providing the space for them to know that they can have a safe conversation here And, as long as we are coming with that level of curiosity, that they're not alone and we are going to be here and we're going to try to help them figure out what we need to do next. I've heard very similar stories from folks that they feel much less alone. They actually feel like there is a weight lifted from them, And so let's just sort of put that one to the side to say look people, it is not true that if we talk about suicide with someone that we're planting a seed Right.
Speaker 2:And the more the people talk about it and ask each other that, the less weird it will be. That's right.
Speaker 1:So we've established that talking about it is okay And so when we go to talk about it, either with the research you're doing around, you know willingness to intervene, things to look out for as people are thinking. Hey, i'm kind of nervous. I'm seeing these signs in my friends. What are some practical ways that we know intervention can happen, to let people know that we are going to hold space for them?
Speaker 2:So, first of all, practice. I would say, if you're worried about someone, practice saying how you're going to say it, because for me I'm not comfortable, and I've worked with this space for a long time. I'm not comfortable saying are you thinking about killing yourself? To me that sounds like super violent. And so I always ask them one are you thinking of harming yourself? But I've practiced that out loud, i've practiced it to friends, i've practiced it in the mirror.
Speaker 2:So practice what you're going to say. The more you say it, the less scary it is. And then you can kind of find a sentence or a phrase that you're comfortable with. You can go make sure you have time. Yeah, you don't have to ask them a serious question and then be like I got to go to class or I'm late for an appointment. So you want to make sure you have time and you don't want to ask them in front of a big group. You want it to private. So, yeah, like privacy, you want to offer hope. You don't want to do it in an accusatory tone, like there's nothing wrong with you, right? Yeah, so there's a tone, there's being open, without judgment.
Speaker 2:And then, if you really don't feel comfortable, but you know or you think somebody needs to help find someone else who is comfortable to intervene and have resources ready. If you're super worried about someone and you can't be there, maybe you can call for a wellness check from the local police. You can take someone to a hospital if you are worried that they're going to harm themselves that day. You can say let's go to the hospital together. You can. I don't know how I feel about the. There are those contracts. You can ask people to say like you're not going to harm themselves until you see them tomorrow And they say they work. I've not really done those before. I don't know if you've done those in your profession. There are research that says it works, but I've not. I've not done them.
Speaker 1:So we tend to use them in you know kind of a therapy practice It is. It's not necessarily a binding legal document, but we do tend to use them in therapy to just kind of help hold people accountable. And those contracts usually include, like, what other steps is the person going to take? And you know, the last step on there includes taking themselves to the hospital if they start to have suicidal thoughts. But you know, what other things can they do before they act on those suicidal thoughts. So you know I'll call a friend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, exactly, yeah, yeah, I love these great practical strategies And I I think one thing you mentioned earlier that I forgot to kind of say again is this idea of you might have to say it more than once, you might have to reach out more than once And the person may not necessarily be immediately thankful. Right, you know, i mean.
Speaker 2:I think that's important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, i mean, they might be shocked, they might be angry, they might be defensive And in the best world, you come to a person with you know, empathy and curiosity and kindness, and you say I'm worried about you, are you okay? And they're like F you back off, leave me alone, you know? and? and that doesn't mean that we like then, just like, let things go for a month and not reach back out to them, right?
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, probably cause you caught them off guard too, and it might be defensive for whatever reason, and so we'll take more than once.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so remember, if you are a person who has concerns, it's definitely okay to say Hey, it's okay, i know you're, you know, feeling a little bit guarded. Or Hey, i'm not trying to upset you, i just want you to know that I care about you, and I tend to encourage folks to say I'm going to call you again tomorrow because I care about you and I'm worried about you And, you know, letting them know I'm going to probably do this again, even if they're really upset and they say, no, don't talk to me. I never want to talk to you again. People who are in the depths of feeling, feeling the weight of suicidal thoughts, tend not to be rational thinkers, right, right. So they're not thinking like, oh yeah, tomorrow would be great to catch up, you know, they're like just really emotional in those moments, and so it's OK for us to kind of gently hold our hold, our space, to say, hey, look, i care about you enough and I'm going to stay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it often might take more than once.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ok, so let's dig into, like, some of the numbers in terms of like, how common is suicide for kind of different age groups or what? or what do we know about that Sure?
Speaker 2:Well, in the US it's sort of for overall numbers. It fluctuates over the years pretty much between the leading cause of death between the 10th, 11th and 12th leading cause of death for all Americans And it's a second leading cause of death for people 20 to 34. That's been pretty consistent for about the last 10 to 15 years. Unfortunately, it's a third leading cause of death, pretty consistently for ages 10 to 19, which is pretty surprising for a lot of people. 10 is really young. Yeah, But unfortunately it is not as uncommon as we would like it to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think people may be familiar with this that men die more by suicide than women, but women attempt more and generally that is because men use more violent and immediate means hanging or firearms whereas women tend to use pills or cutting, So there's more time for intervention. Yeah, White males account for about 70% of all suicide deaths. That's pretty consistent, but that's the latest numbers as of 2021. Yeah, It takes a little lag time for them to collect all the data and get all the data out of the CDC, And this is something I always it's never part of the conversation when they talk about the gun reform, but firearms account for 55% of all suicide deaths And it's just never part of that conversation which I never get, because it's a huge part of suicide deaths as well. Yeah, And then something that is interesting or not interesting, but it's sad is that you talk about.
Speaker 2:So in 2021, which there was a bit of a jump from 2020, most likely due to COVID about a 5% increase with about 48,000 suicides in the US. So we had gone up dramatically from 2000 to 2018. And then we went down 2018 to 2020, but then we spiked back up in 2021 in suicides. But for every suicide death, there's approximately three hospitalizations due to self harm, Eight emergency department visits related to suicide in some way, 38 self-reported suicide attempts in the past year And then 265 people who seriously considered suicide in the last year. Just for that one death by suicide. So, people, it's more common, you think, to think about it, to have a plan. People know someone who either knows someone or has thought of suicide before, but it's not talked about again.
Speaker 1:Those numbers are just everywhere. Those numbers are just a reminder that this is part of the people around you, right? So if you're a listener and maybe you haven't had thoughts of suicide yourself, people around you have. I mean, there's just, there's just no way around those statistics, and so I think the thing that I hear in those numbers well, it's a lot of things, but one it's young kids are having thoughts of suicide, and so we can have conversations really early And I usually have them similarly to you, right, do you ever have thoughts of hurting yourself?
Speaker 1:Do you want to die? I mean, after I hear someone say you know if I said to a child or to an adult do you ever have thoughts of hurting yourself? And they say, yeah, sometimes I do. And then I ask them do you actually want to die, like, do you want to stop living? And if they say yes, then that puts them in a higher risk category And then we really need to be focused on how can we support them and how can we intervene.
Speaker 1:But sometimes people say no, i don't actually want to die, i just want to stop hurting, i just want the pain to go away, i just don't want people to hate me anymore, right, they have these things that are connected to their thoughts of suicide that aren't actually about dying, and so in those instances we have to really help them understand that having thoughts of suicide is okay for us to talk about and we need to make sure that we support them and understanding. How do we not connect all those other things like you know, social issues or struggles that we're having in our social life or whatever with those thoughts of suicide? So our young kids are really experiencing it also And so early, early, we as parents or friends or teachers, can start talking about it.
Speaker 2:I always think about it when I'm talking to teachers. One in 12 college students has a suicide plan. So if you're teaching in class of 24 students, two of your current students in that classroom knows how they would die, where they would die. They've thought of that, yep. So that's just something to think about when you go into your classroom, that it is an appropriate place to have that conversation. So, yeah, that's always in the back of my head when I start a new semester, or if it's midterms and it's a real stressful time of the semester.
Speaker 1:Or if I have students who I know are withdrawn. I know students that kind of have emailed me about struggles they're having. It doesn't necessarily mean that they definitely are having suicidal thoughts, but definitely any of those folks that are on our radar. Making sure that we are prepared with the tools we need to have that conversation first of all, so I need to not freak out if somebody says to me, if my kid says to me, if a student says to me I'm having thoughts of suicide. I have to be really ready to calm my body and fix my face and make sure that I'm not like ugh Yes.
Speaker 1:And practice. I love that. That was the very first thing you said. You said practice what you're gonna say. Practice what your face is gonna look like. Practice what your body is gonna look like. Practice your tone. I think I can't say that enough to folks that. Imagine someone saying this to you or have somebody say it to you. Have your friend or partner or whatever. Practice together. Then, if you have teenagers, if you have college students at home, even if they're not the ones who are having thoughts of hurting themselves, they probably have had friends, and so how can you prepare the people that are living around you to be good first interveners also?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I'm to workshops sometimes we have different scenarios And then just practicing saying it in a real scenario with people I think helps them put them more in the moment about what they could say to someone.
Speaker 1:I love that And I think practicing is key also. Okay, i wanna talk about this kind of shift in language. We've kind of said both of us have used kind of this newer, maybe in the last, what like? maybe last decade, maybe last five to 10 years or so, we've steered away from saying committed suicide And now we are saying either died by suicide or completed suicide. Can you talk a little bit about why that matters or why that shift?
Speaker 2:Sure, from my understanding we have moved away from that because there is a lot of stigma surrounding the word committed, because it sounds like it's criminal, like committing a crime, yeah, and so it's going more into died by suicide or completed suicide, just to remove some of it, because there's a lot of stigma by association And also it's not. They wanna get that criminal aspect away from it. That's my understanding.
Speaker 1:Does that kind of what you Yeah, i think that's most of what I have also heard, and it is more factual to just say they died by suicide or they completed suicide, and so why add the judgment or the perception of judgment when we can remain factual?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So some of the other work you're doing is around kind of how this impacts first responders, right, people like me, people like you know, firefighters, emt, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I am working with Julie Cyril, who is at the University of Kentucky and she is in social work, and we have looked at first responders and their exposure to suicide over time. So we looked at crisis workers, psychologists, emts and police officers and their exposure to suicide over time and kind of their impact on their depression and their own anxiety And if they had like a suicide that stuck with them and if it caused them any like affected their overall well-being. And we have found that there are suicides that stick with them over. You know that over time And it does they do have an increased anxiety and depression And they also probably need some postvention work.
Speaker 2:Right, they need some extra support that I think it's forgotten. They're the ones helping everyone else and they also are going to need some support. That's kind of in its newer works, but it's really especially during COVID when it's like the first responders right, they just they're our heroes and like they have so much they're dealing with so much. And we talked to one of the. I talked to one of the police officers that ended up taking the surveys and he just was telling me about how many it was a campus police officer, how many campus suicides he had walked into and how traumatizing that is to deal with. And yeah, and it does stick with them and the guilt sticks with them and the visual and the family not being able to help them.
Speaker 1:And I mean the what if we would have gotten here sooner, right, you know, or what if I would have known, or what if I would have seen, or how could I have done more? You know, i think for first responders especially, but even for anyone who is close to someone who attempts or complete suicide.
Speaker 2:That was one of the things for the crisis workers who were like working at crisis centers or hotlines. That was one of their things is what could I have said differently or done differently or have been trained in a different way?
Speaker 1:I've done very little crisis work in my career. actually, most of what I've done has been in just about every other setting, frankly. But I can't really imagine as a helper you know, i have a helper mindset, i have a helper's heart and to do the crisis work and to feel like that was my job. I mean just the guilt of that, you know, even though it's not your fault, i think we as helpers, we as humans, frankly it's like oh, I wish, i wish I would have.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, a lot of them feel under trained in that respect too. They don't feel like they have the training they need to one intervene and then two to cope with it afterwards, and so there's a, there's a big lack there that needs to be filled, the whole.
Speaker 1:Ooh, that's tough. That's tough to think about, like even me just kind of like pausing to think about. Okay, all right, so we've talked about a lot of things. Was there something we forgot to kind of talk about something else? you thought, hey, i really want to make sure that we talk about this.
Speaker 2:Well, there is something that's fairly new. Just I'm sure you know about it, but there is the new 988 number that I just think everyone should know about now. It's, instead of calling 911, you can call 988. And it's specifically an emergency number geared towards suicide and crisis lifeline, and you'll go right to a crisis worker to help, specifically for suicide situations.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, and I think the more we can remind folks, the more we can let folks know you're better to intervene. You're better to call the number than to not. Yes, better to call the number even if you're like I'm not really sure, maybe it's not that bad, maybe they're okay And maybe they're not, and so better to call, better to go ahead and, you know, step in if you can. And I love the part you said earlier about timing, like making sure you have just enough time to hear what people are saying and what people are doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'm trying to be accused of Tory. Just like. Give them a question they can actually answer, instead of they have to say it You're, you know you don't want to be, like, you're fine, right. Like how else can anyone else answer that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, i know. And what your underlying communication is. I need you to be fine, because the same can be for me if you're not Right The way you say it. That way is like you have to be fine. Exactly That's what practicing helps. Practicing helps And Kevin Hines came to the American Psychological Association several years ago.
Speaker 2:Did you meet him?
Speaker 1:Huh, i didn't meet him personally, but he was one of the keynotes And you know the thing that stood out to me I mean, there were a lot of things. He is a really amazing speaker And the thing that stood out to me was that he said he was like on the bus, just crying and crying and crying And there were all these people around him, all these people around him. When he got to the bridge, there were all these people around him and he was clearly suffering And no one even said like are you OK?
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:And if you want to learn more about his story I'll link in the notes here. But it has really stuck with me, right? Because when you're in public you're like, oh, here's somebody who is crying and they're walking along and they're on their phone, but they're sobbing And you don't want to say anything. She don't want to pry, you don't want to just like be all up in their business. But I have thought about that And I have intervened a couple of times with people where they were crying And I just said to them like, are you OK? And sometimes people have looked at me like I don't know you, but other times they have looked back and they're sort of like I think I'm going to be OK.
Speaker 2:That is interesting. I know his story And for those of you who don't, it's he goes to the Golden Gate Bridge. It's the Golden Gate Bridge And he's 1% of people who has jumped off that bridge and survived. And he said that the millisecond his fingers left the bridge. He regretted it And he goes around and he does motivational speaking about it, but I had never heard the part about the bridge and crying before, so that is powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i mean he said he was on the bus. So he walks through his whole journey of that morning And basically he says there were like 100 people that could have stopped him, not blaming them. Right, he didn't say it in like a blaming way, but he just his message was also that he believes he survived because there were some sea animals that basically carried him to the top of the water. And he says you know, the animals cared about me before any humans did. When I was on that day, i think there was even a moment where he like climbed on the other side of the railing And there were people like taking pictures next to him. Oh wow, i feel like I might be misremembering this, but I feel like there maybe was even a moment where, like, someone asked him to take a picture. Oh wow, i know that I don't know if he was on the other side at that point, but anyway, the point is I may have misrepresented.
Speaker 1:Sorry, kevin Hines, if you're ever hearing this, then I don't mean to misrepresent your story, but I do love your story. So I think the point is that there are lots of moments, tiny, tiny moments, where we can say something just as simple as are you OK? Is there something I can do to help? What do you need? Right, like just simple questions, like when we say intervene, that's what we mean. We don't mean like load them in your car and take them home with you and let them sleep in your guest room for six weeks. Really, like when we say intervene, we're saying are you OK? Yes, what do you need? How can I help?
Speaker 2:Yeah, showing that you care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:Thanks for saying yes to being here. Yeah, thank you for having me. It was great to catch up with you a bit.
Speaker 1:I love this. How can people read about the research you're doing? anything that they can talk to or I can link to?
Speaker 2:The IU East web page of the faculty has my research there. Academic Adventures Dr Aldrich is my blog. I believe I can send that to you.
Speaker 1:if you want, we can link that.
Speaker 2:OK. Although knowing it and being able to say it may be good, yeah, i'm pretty sure that's it, but yeah, that's probably the best way to follow what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:It's hilarious. I wrote a book and I don't even know the title of it. I'm still like I'm always like it's kind of long subtitles, Like Make Words Matter, straightforward, practical approach to get kids to listen. Yeah, there's a lot of things going on in their brains, But really I should probably practice saying my book title. Anyway, OK, Thank you for being here. I hope that folks were able to walk away with some nuggets of things that they can do One to intervene, obviously, But then also just to have more conversation with your loved ones, your kids, your teenagers, your college students, really just anyone you're around And approaching it with curiosity, kindness, empathy, listening is always the best way to do it. So I appreciate you for being here and listener. Thank you for joining And until next time, stay safe and stay well.
