Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep57: Exploring the Invisible Load: Women's Emotional, Cognitive, and Mental Labor in Relationships
Ever felt overwhelmed by the emotional, cognitive, and mental labor that so often falls upon women in marriages and families? In this episode posted on my other podcast, my guest, Bria Zolman, and I discuss this invisible load that's all too familiar for many of us. Bria shares her personal journey of shifting this burden in her own home, providing an enlightening perspective on potential growth and change. We assure our listeners that this conversation is not driven by man-hating or gender stereotyping, rather it's about bringing this hidden load into the light.
Balancing personal fulfillment in a marriage while carrying the hidden load can be a daunting task. Bria and I break down the various types of labor that often fall on women - cognitive, emotional, and even mental. We discuss how these burdens can lead to damaging games of who does more and can hinder the path to being true to oneself. This conversation is not about playing the blame game, but about recognizing the effort both partners are putting in and finding ways to lessen the load.
Anxiety and control often play a significant role in amplifying the weight of the hidden load. Bria and I explore the struggles of women dealing with anxiety and its effects on their daily lives. We delve into how anxiety can lead women to feel they need to control every aspect of their family's lives, often to their own detriment. We discuss seeking support and treatment for anxiety, and how this can be a crucial step in lightening the load. This episode is a candid exploration of women's invisible load and provides insights on how to manage it. Join us in this enlightening conversation.
Here is a link to the article we reference.
The hidden load: How 'thinking of everything' holds mums back - BBC Worklife
As always, this is not meant to replace therapy. Seek counseling if you need it!
www.bethtrammell.com
Okay, so welcome back to Kids. These Days I am Dr Beth Tramell, your host here, and I am a licensed psychologist and I focus on helping kids and families in a variety of different ways, and today I have a very special guest with me and I'm so excited about this. Then people who listen to the podcast, they're sort of like I'm pretty much over Beth being excited about every episode, because I basically start every episode with I'm so excited about today, but I really am excited every time.
Dr. Beth Trammell:So, anyway, brea's all minutes here with me today to talk about some really interesting things that both of us are have been thinking about in relation to an article that was put out by BBC. But before we get there, brea, thank you for being here. Tell us just a little bit about you, and I always tell every guest share one fun fact about you for our listeners.
Bria Zolman:Okay, Well, my name is Brea Zulman. I am a longtime Muncie resident, moved here for college, got an education degree, stayed for the last 20 years and I'm raising a family. I have two kids and, fun fact, I don't know how fun this is but, I, work at Ball State and I have a real passion and heart for youth who experience foster care, and that is the focus of my work right now and I, as it is a fun fact, because I think it's incredible work so, yeah, so that's me.
Dr. Beth Trammell:I love that. Thanks for sharing that, and I think it's a fun fact and it really is such a needed thing, I think right now, but always.
Bria Zolman:Yeah, absolutely there. I don't know that the general public understands the number of youth who are affected by the foster care system and even the larger number of youth who fly under the CCS radar but are being raised in families with compromised systems of support. So, yeah, I love what I do. I am really passionate about the work and just being a part of bringing redemption into the lives of young people. And, yeah, so I'm excited to talk about this too, because this relates more to marriages and families. But I could go all day. Let's do it.
Dr. Beth Trammell:You know what's funny, as I'm, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm like, well, that's going to be our next episode to talk about.
Dr. Beth Trammell:I mean foster care and, yeah, helping the general public know how they can help.
Dr. Beth Trammell:But okay, it's real though that that's actually really, that's an episode on its own, so Alright, so this sort of conversation was prompted by an article written by Melissa Hagen boom May 18 2021, on the BBC's website, called the hidden load, and now quote thinking about everything holds mums back, and I posted this on social media, frankly, more for just me personally, but for other moms who I've heard talk to been around, who have this overwhelming fatigue, right, we just are tired, were exhausted, were overwhelmed, and one of the parts that really stood out to me was when they sort of broke down how this invisible load, this cognitive labor, where we're thinking about the elements of the household responsibility, organizing play dates, shopping, planning, activities we have the emotional labor of maintaining the family's emotion and calming people down when they're losing their crap in the living room floor, and then the mental load of sort of prepping, organizing, anticipating everything, and it really resonated on all three fronts that I feel the weight of that invisible load Very tremendously and it struck me in this way that you know it's not really fair to me or to my spouse that I carry this invisible load because I feel heavy.
Dr. Beth Trammell:But frankly, he doesn't know. And that's the thing that struck me and, and as we kind of talk about this a little bit more, I want to hear your perspective, because you shared kind of a perspective where it seemed like you have had, yeah, some experience in talking out loud about these things or sharing or about these things. So tell me how you maybe initially reacted to this article or maybe how you have evolved into where you are with this, this whole issue for you.
Bria Zolman:Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. And when I originally commented, of course there was just a whole thread of women saying, yes, I connect with this, yes, this is my life. I didn't know how to say this before and I had seen several iterations of this article in the past couple of years and maybe even beyond that, and when I first read it, I was in that same space of like, oh my gosh, yes, this is what my husband does not understand, this is what I don't have words to say about, the stressors and the weight that is carried in my daily life. So empathizing with all the people responding like yes, yes.
Bria Zolman:But what I discovered is, maybe the third or fourth time that I read an iteration of that article was that, like when I thought about my life, I thought you know what? I don't think that that's true for me anymore. Like something shifted in my home and in my marriage. And so now when I read that article, I think I can't make that claim anymore. Like my spouse is amazing, he's killing it. He has stepped up in ways that I never anticipated and that have really positively affected my life and my enjoyment of my own life. And so I commented in hopes, of giving other people hope that there can be growth in this area, and so I'd be happy to share at least some of my own reflections about what kind of sparked that in my home. And hopefully that is only my own personal experience, it's not universal, so I will definitely give that disclaimer, but I'll be happy to share.
Dr. Beth Trammell:Yeah, I love that. I can't wait to hear sort of how you got to that point and you reminded me that. I think it's important that we both acknowledge because we kind of chatted before we started this episode that we don't want this episode to come off like we are manhating or gender stereotyping there. This article talks specifically about the weight for women, but I think if that role may be switched in your marriage, in your partnership with your partner and so don't hear sort of manhating here or hopelessness here, because I think what you're saying, bria, is very true that for me, the most important part of this article is the invisibility of the load, and when we make invisible things visible, that's when good things can happen.
Dr. Beth Trammell:It's just a matter of realizing they're invisible, which is kind of the awareness that I think a lot of folks are experiencing now. And it sounds like you experienced some time ago. Yes, you realized it was invisible, and now what you've done I think what you're gonna tell us you've done is you've made that invisible load visible to the people around you. So talk to us about how you did that and kind of how people around you reacted.
Bria Zolman:Sure. So a little backstory, and I'm a person who loves to be honest and vulnerable, but will try to be concise and appropriate for a podcast. So what I will say is that I married very young and in our marriage we were very young, very immature, and I would say a good summary would be that we had a decade of troubled marriage. But in the midst of that troubled marriage we birthed two amazing children. I was a stay-at-home mom at that time and I will say that we both went through a lot of therapy, individually and together during that time. But one of the game changers for this for me was that I think when you're young and you're moving into adulthood, you're entering into a partnership that you don't know. Nobody gave you a training manual on how to be a spouse or how to be a mom, like I saw a meme last week that said like what your kids don't realize is that they're watching their parents grow up too, and that really resonated with me because I feel like all of my 20s was giving myself like the time and the space and the therapy that was needed to like process and work through kind of the collective pains of my life up into that point, figure out who I was, gain some self-awareness, gain some self-worth, because I don't know the result of many factors in my life.
Bria Zolman:I entered my late 20s really defeated, like in a very poor state of mental health, in a very unhappy relationship, not feeling like my identity had been squashed under the weight of motherhood and troubles in our home. And so it took years, like just years, of painstakingly working through like who am I? What value do I get to have? What space do I get to take up here in my world? Some of that was actually like personality type. Those became a biggest spot for me at times and one of the turning points, I think, in my specific relationship was that somewhere along that timeline I realized in Myers-Briggs that my husband I always thought that my husband and I were like polar opposites and cause in some ways we are, but when I was investigating Myers-Briggs I realized that we actually have identical Myers-Briggs personality types.
Bria Zolman:However, I felt the burden to compensate for the areas in which he was extreme by taking on the counter characteristics which were not true to who I am innately, who I believe God created me to be and live out in freedom. And so when I realized like what am I doing, like he wasn't making me do those things, but whatever was inside of me that felt like it needed to balance, there was taking on all sorts of roles that were not leaning into what my own personal like skillset and abilities were, or even desires, and so when I realized that, I kind of just decided to stop doing that, why do I have to be the one that does the things neither one of us wants to do and I don't? And he, like I said, nobody was making me do that, and so I just started.
Bria Zolman:One part of it, I think, was embracing the fact that we were both like two people who prefer to be disorganized and spontaneous, married each other. Okay, like it's okay, like we don't have to have this perfectly organized life, we are home and marriage doesn't have to look like someone else who is really concerned with some of those things, and so I think it required letting go of the desire to that sense of like we can do it all, we can have it all, we can be it all. It's like no, this is who I am, so I'm not gonna have to try to be this other thing. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Beth Trammell:Okay, so I, oh my gosh, I'm like first, I'm so thankful for your vulnerability and coming to share in such a vulnerable way and such a very real way. I mean, you've said a couple of things that already. I'm like, yes, I need people to hear that again.
Bria Zolman:Right.
Dr. Beth Trammell:That first, no one made you do those extra things. He didn't ask you, he didn't tell you. You felt this inherent like, oh, I should do this because I think it's gonna make him happy, or I think it's gonna make us better, or whatever the thought process was. I think Lots of us might feel some of that, or, in fact, do a lot of that Different reasons, because we get this, some sort of perception that that's what we should do. We know on some level that it's not good for us, or or our, our relationship, whatever that relationship looks like, and yet we continue and sometimes, sometimes we do almost in sort of this, like martyr kind of way, you know like well, yeah, that actually leads really well into what I was thinking of sharing.
Bria Zolman:Next, I actually had a name for this martyr thing that I did in early in our marriage. I called it the who has it Worst Game.
Bria Zolman:Oh yeah, ok, this is, let's talk about this, yeah so I spent a lot of emotional and energy feeling really angry and not being able to. Not being able to it was under the weight of that burden of like I'm angry about my state in life, I'm unhappy. So what I would do was, in my head, just repeat all the reasons why I felt like I had it worse in our marriage. I had it worse at this, I had to do this, I had to do that. You're off doing this thing and I'm doing this, and I and we would have these arguments where I would be confronting him about these are all the reasons why I have it worse essentially in this life, and I think there are times where you do need to stand up and and speak like empowerment.
Bria Zolman:But I really realized that, like playing that who has it Worst Game is almost never helpful. Like we both have really hard things in our lives and we both largely feel unseen for what we're doing, and so what I felt like at that time the way that we made growth was that like one person at a time, it cannot be. You cannot be pitted against each other. One person at a time. You can address the specific situations and honor one another's feelings, but you have to avoid pitting them against each other Because you'll never. No one ever wins that game. No one ever has it worse, you both have. It's hard like life is hard, parenting is hard, marriage is hard, and so kind of trying to let go of that hill I wanted to die on felt important.
Dr. Beth Trammell:Yeah, I mean, I am. I am like sort of just resonating so deeply with this idea of keeping score. You know, I talk with clients a lot about keeping score with their partner or their spouse and saying, well, I, I did this and this and this, and you, you only did this or that. Right and to your point, it never, it never, ever works out. And I remember, I remember some moments with my spouse where he is also super amazing in every way and everyone who knows him loves him and I love him more than all of you put together. But I remember moments where it's like I'm working really hard and he's working really hard and yet I still feel like it's not working Right.
Dr. Beth Trammell:So it's like I remember feeling almost trapped in some of my thought processes, including this sort of invisible load, even really hard and utilizing he's also carrying a load, but like we're working really hard, and then it still feels like like our family is not working or our things aren't working, and so that feeling, I know, can be very real.
Bria Zolman:And then, to your point, keeping score isn't the answer but but bringing it up in a coming together kind of way could be, Right, yeah, I agree, and I think that, like, there's very real situations where people are in unbalanced, unhealthy relationships, where one spouse is carrying a lines of the work and the other spouse is unable or unwilling to help, and I think that needs to be honored and acknowledged. But I think if you are coming at it from a perspective of I'm in a marriage where we're both seeking to be the best versions of ourselves and we're both for the other person, then you can have faith that you can bring these things up in a non accusatory way and and have it be received by your partner with gentleness, you know, and and it may not go well the first time, you know, because it is hard to explain invisible things and, and so I, but I think you have to, you have to begin doing that. This next thing that I wanted to share sort of goes back to what we were talking about earlier about he wasn't stopping me from from, he wasn't forcing me to do these things, but I realized that, like at some point, if I felt like he was living a pretty fulfilling life and I really resented him for that, yeah, and I realized that nobody was stopping me from living a fulfilling life except for me, like I'm doing these things. And so during that time I found meaningful work that aligned with my desires for the roles, for my roles in the home. So for me personally, like when my big, my kids, were babies like I, I needed to be home with them. Lots of other people need to be at work and other variations of that, but for me I needed to be home. But my desires for meaningful work adjusted and it changed over time and I allowed myself to lean into that.
Bria Zolman:I also made choices to travel both for work and pleasure. Instead of just being angry that he did those things but I didn't, I made time to go to the gym sometimes, instead of being angry that he was going to the gym and I wasn't. And every time yeah, every time I did something like that where it's like, well, I'm just, I'm mad at you because I'm home with the kids and you're out at work or you're out at the gym, like who's telling me I can't go to the gym. You know like I found that he was really happy to step up when I'm like, hey, can you be home because I'm going to go do this thing he wanted, he wants me to live a life I'm enjoying too, you know, and he's a great dad, like he wants to be with his kids too, you know, and so it was important for me to stop just being angry about the things he was doing and figure out what are the things that I want to be able to do, and then do those things.
Bria Zolman:I feel I don't know why this feels like a cliche thing to share, but, girl, wash your Face was a meaningful book for me at that time. I feel like there was a chapter in there that really was in line with this. And then Love Warrior by Glen and Doyle was a really meaningful book for me at that time, also everything Brené Brown, of course. So I was reading a lot and kind of taking in those pieces of empowerment that really aided that growth.
Dr. Beth Trammell:So I think you know what you said earlier, too. Is is so important to reiterate here that you know if you're in a relationship that is maybe not allowing you to take on some of these suggestions, then I think my recommendation would be to take a second thought, to approach a counselor. Make time for yourself to seek someone else out to see if this is the best relationship for you, because I actually agree with you most of the folks that you know I interact with just haven't even given their spouse a chance you know, they just they spend time in that angry zone of like he's good to do this and I really want to, but you haven't told him that you want to or brought up ways that we could make this work.
Dr. Beth Trammell:We, you know, we don't give them an opportunity to do that. And I think sometimes, when you get into this rut where you know, oh my gosh, I'm carrying all of the load and no one knows it and no one recognizes me for it, and it doesn't even feel glamorous. You know, there's no glory in this diaper. Changing laundry loading right sort of thing. You just sort of are like fine, I'll just stay here, what, what, what? Right, yeah, you're not living your best life, right, right.
Bria Zolman:And I think that this ties funny how all these things keep, kind of, you know, going right ahead. Because I think another thing that at least was a huge factor for me, and I don't know if this is true for most women, but I had to deal with my anxiety. That was huge in this effort for me, because I can want to do other things and understand that I'm not like living my best life, but when my anxiety tells me, yeah, but you, but what if this happens? Or what if that happens, or what if this, then you don't do it anyways, you know. And so for me, having kids was the straw that broke the proverbial camel spec. Like I had severe postpartum anxiety and that just combined with being wire as a person who is now comfortable enough in my own skin to say that I just don't love babies or toddlers, like I just felt crippled by that face of life in so many ways. But I couldn't bear the stress of leaving my children and all that went into that.
Bria Zolman:I was miserable, not having a life or identity outside of my kids, and I believe that anxiety is a really crippling factor and the invisible workload for many women to having the emotional capacity to not need to control every aspect and preempt every possible struggle in the family's day to day, that can offer women incredible freedom from this load. And just as the article suggests, just not doing the things and finding out that your husband will actually do them or the world won't explode if your kids science fair project isn't perfect or they don't wear the right t shirt to the orthodontist or whatever, they don't have crazy socks for a soccer sock day. Like it's anxiety in some point that makes us feel like everything's going to fall apart. If I don't do it, like meh or it might just be fine and your house will be calmer and happier because you didn't feel like you had to control everything.
Dr. Beth Trammell:Yeah. So everything you just said is a yes, a yes and a yes, and I think it was one of the things that I picked up from this to is this issue of control right, that some folks, driven by their anxiety, tend to want to control other issues, so that you know their anxiety doesn't spike?
Bria Zolman:And.
Dr. Beth Trammell:I think to your point. This is also some comparison anxiety to where it's like oh well, I go to my friend's house and their house is clean, and so my friends come over and my house isn't spotless, then I must not be a good mom and I must not be a good wife and I must not be this or that or this. So you know, I talk with folks a lot about telling what's at the bulk of your load, right?
Dr. Beth Trammell:so what are the things that you carry. You know it's doing the dishes. Before I go to bed I want to make sure the house is clean. Before I go to bed I want to make sure that my kids have their lunches packed and they have a grain and a vegetable on the blanks right.
Dr. Beth Trammell:And when I stopped to ask people almost to what you're describing here, right, I asked people to think about list out all of those things that you see as a heavy load. Right, maybe you rank order them the heaviest to the lightest. I asked folks like if you didn't do Number three and number six and number seven, like would the universe implode?
Bria Zolman:right, because you know to what you're saying is like much of this is our own pressure.
Dr. Beth Trammell:So if we, if we start minimally with just crossing those things off the list to say I'm going to stop caring so much about those things, Then I'm going to ask my spouse or partner can you pick up this weight? Of this can you be in charge of dinner on Tuesdays? Be in charge of shopping this week, because I know that this week I have you know a lot going on.
Dr. Beth Trammell:And then let go of the control of the shopping list. He might pay extra for the grapes per pound. Okay, letting go of that control when you pass off a task.
Bria Zolman:Yes, yes, that's so good, that's so good and this feels like a hard thing to kind of brooch and I'll lean into your expertise here, but I think people who are experiencing extreme levels of anxiety, I think we need to ask ourselves if this mental load feels like it is crippling your life, is there support that you need to receive for that anxiety? Because I the thing I hate the most when someone has things, when I'm worried about something.
Bria Zolman:Is someone be like, yeah, just stop worrying about it's like, well, great, if I could stop worrying about it, I would thank you, that's helpful. But I do think that unacknowledged and untreated anxiety can, at times, lead women to feel as though they're hearing an uneven load, when objectively, their husbands might be carrying an equal or greater load in an effort to mitigate their spouse's anxiety. And I just really think that we give our children and our spouses a really great gift when we seek support and advice from mental health professionals If we're experiencing debilitating anxiety or depression symptoms, because there are things that we cannot handle on our own, you know, and we need that support. So I don't know, breaking the stigma of therapy get some good therapy people.
Dr. Beth Trammell:For real and I love the way you play. I mean, I love the way you play that card of saying it's actually such a gift yes, spouse, and your loved ones. When you take care of yourself well and going to therapy.
Dr. Beth Trammell:Yeah, I love that. I think that's so brilliant and, as I think about some of the things that this article has kind of spurred up in me and it really helped me, articulate times when I'm like I'm just tired, you know my, my spouse would say you know what's what's happening, I don't know what's going on. You know my, my mo is to retreat, get into sort of like, put your head down, work hard, get through it.
Dr. Beth Trammell:You know that's kind of my mo and it's really unfair to him because he wants to help carry the load and he doesn't know how to help me and I'm sort of like I don't know, I'm just, I'm just so tired, and now I have been working to explain more of this. I do a lot of anticipating. I have four kids right and someone's always hungry or tired or there something hurts or I don't know. They need something literally every minute of the day, and so I spend a lot of preemptive energy trying to prepare for going somewhere.
Dr. Beth Trammell:I got to pack extra clothes, I got to pack, you know, a snack, I got to have water in the car. You know all the things right. And part of the struggle for for us that we have kind of realized now is that in those moments he steps up and he tries to help, he tries to fix the problem right. So he's like okay, I'll go get you know, take out, and you won't have to cook dinner tonight. And I would actually be angry about that. Okay, and I'll tell you why I get angry about that. I get angry because I'm like well, you, son of a gun, you should have told me that this morning, because I've been thinking about it all freaking day. Okay, but in his mind he doesn't know I've been thinking about it all day. He just is saying look, I'm taking away you have dinner.
Bria Zolman:you don't have to go to a nice thing, yeah.
Dr. Beth Trammell:And both of us are right and he is correct and wanting to help, and so this, this has really helped me realize that I need to tell him those things ahead of time, because it's not in his wiring to be thinking about what we're cooking for dinner tonight. That's not his role, that hasn't been his role. Our whole, our whole relationship, and so you know, it just has been illuminating some various ways that we're both trying to help in that scenario. And so it's just being open about communicating about those things and what's going on on our inner brains, our inner lives, right?
Bria Zolman:Yeah, I do. I think it is important. I think in every relationship to I love what you were saying there so you both feel like you're doing the right thing and you both are and you're with it there's a communication gap in what's actually helpful. The funny it's funny that you brought up cooking, because that is probably the area in my marriage that has changed that that burn load for me the most, because I despise thinking about food, prepping food, cooking food and cleaning up after food. I don't like any part of it. And one thing that really really shifted the kind of balance in our home is that we discovered that my husband actually really really loves to cook and he's incredible at it. He's an Enneagram 7. I told you I like personality type stuff and one way so in the Enneagram sevens really like to be like something has to be exciting right now and I need to be a part of it.
Bria Zolman:And so one way that he can infuse excitement and adventure in his day is researching and planning and shopping and cooking extravagant meals. He loves it and it like makes. He's also like he wants to. He wants to live in the mountains or at the ocean and we live in Indiana, so this is like one way that he like brings. He loves thinking about what he's going to cook and I don't want to spend a minute thinking about food and so when we realize that it's like I have not thought about what our family is going to eat in like a couple years probably, and if I have to, we're definitely getting takeouts like or eating like spaghetti, because I could eat spaghetti every night Like something boring and he doesn't want boring meals, so it's just on him and that's one thing that I have like when I realized I haven't thought about food in ages, like that was such a gift that he gave to me and I know that won't work in every family because not every spouse is going to like, really love it, but it does. But I have to let go of the fact that it's actually maybe more expensive for us to eat at home with him cooking than it is eating out because he wants to go to fresh time and buy things, buy fancy things. I'm like, okay, it's, the mental health of our home is more important.
Bria Zolman:And then for us, I do the finances. To be fair, I always have. So I was doing meals and finances for many, many years. But since he took the workload of meals, I do finances. He hates thinking about money. I don't love it, but I like it a lot more than meals. So I consider that like a win in my book and he doesn't really have to think about the money. I do all the billpaying, all the things that go on in that realm. I do our taxes, all that stuff. If anybody's looking for a cool tool, I use YNAB. I'm a horrible money person, but YNAB helps Awesome.
Bria Zolman:So you can be a horrible money person and still be the person to charge your finances Right, and so I wouldn't say horrible, I'm exaggerating, but yeah, I think that was big for us was to like lean into and it took us time to like grow up and realize, oh, this works for me and that was just a real, a really positive thing.
Dr. Beth Trammell:I think for us, what he does now is he's in charge of breakfast and he is a menu person, so the kids have the same breakfast every Monday and they have the same breakfast every Tuesday. So he has a Monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday breakfast. My job is just to make sure the food is there and he cooks breakfast and I get to wake up and not have to think about food for breakfast. So it's like these little things that you can start to kind of hand off some of it and the other thing you said. And then I know we've got to wrap up because and we could talk forever about this and I love it.
Dr. Beth Trammell:I love everything. I love all of it is I have to let go of I do everything and start realizing, yeah, there are other things he does, Right. So what does your you want to say right away Well, you don't know nothing. But you really have to pause to say what is he doing? And then, maybe, what am I allowing him to do?
Bria Zolman:Right, absolutely. And here's one thing I would add on top of that is what are the things that you're doing that are reasonably his responsibility? Like there are. I think there are so many things in a partnership that women just do and it's like you know what, like if he needs to make a dentist appointment when, apart from when I'm going with the kids, he's able to call the dentist, yeah. Or if the internet goes out, he can stand on hold with Comcast for 45 minutes. I don't want to do it either, but there are things that are reasonable where it's like why, why do I instinctively do this? And he may expect it because that's what you've been doing for the last 20 years or whatever, but it's reasonable to ask to know that. I mean, that's just what. I just kind of stop doing things. You know, it's like you can do that and he does, and it's fine and we're both happier because of it. You know, yes, yeah exactly, oh my gosh.
Dr. Beth Trammell:So, rhea, I know we could, we're gonna talk about the foster care stuff and we'll probably dig into all these other things that we both are really excited about, but I want to thank you for being here. It was such an. It was really such an enlightening conversation, and I'm going to put a link to the article on the show notes here, and I just appreciate you so much for your vulnerability, your wisdom. Here I love that I felt honored to be asked.
Bria Zolman:So thank you so much.
Dr. Beth Trammell:Y'all. You can follow me on Facebook MWM with kids. My website is makewordsmatterforgoodcom, and thanks for listening. I appreciate all of you who listen each week and I can't wait to have Rhea back to talk about more things. So until next time, see you later.
