Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep63: Exploring Trauma: From Understanding to Healing with Therapist Jessica Van der Merwe
What happens when trauma imprints itself onto your brain? How can we navigate the intricacies of our own healing journey? Join us as we grapple with these questions alongside Jessica Van der Merwe, a highly skilled mental health counselor and certified brain spotting therapist. Our discussion takes us deep into the world of trauma, dissecting its many forms from standalone traumatic events to ongoing, complex trauma. Jessica unravels the ways our early relationships with caregivers can shape and impact us, and passionately advocates for the destigmatization of trauma to pave the way for more open, healing conversations.
Trauma has a curious way of lodging itself within the limbic system of our brains, where memories, emotions, and non-verbal experiences reside. As we explore this intricate process with Jessica, we gain an understanding of how trauma can render a person feeling overwhelmed or unnerved by their own triggers. But it's not all doom and gloom — Jessica emphasizes the power of awareness as the first step on the path to recovery, reminding us that healing is a journey, often slow-paced yet continually forward-moving.
Jessica equips us with strategies for building self-trust and fostering empathy during the therapeutic process. We delve into the role of the prefrontal lobes in cultivating curiosity, and the importance of bringing a wise, adult self to this journey. Wrapping up, Jessica shares her valuable insights on how to initiate the healing process from trauma, emphasizing the importance of understanding our body's reactions and acknowledging the crucial role of trust. Tune in for a powerful conversation and prepare to commence (or continue!) your healing journey.
Jessica Van der Merwe, LMHC, LPC
Certified Brainspotting Therapist
http://proteacounselingpnw.com
Phone: 360-818-8322
Vancouver, WA 98684
Existing clients can request appointments here: https://jessica-van-der-merwe.clientsecure.me/
If you are experiencing an emotional or suicidal crisis, call or text 988
Additional resources: https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/resources/
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Welcome back, linsner. Thank you for joining today. I am your host, dr Beth Tramal. I'm a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the Master's in Mental Health Counseling Program, and I love doing these interviews. Folks Like I just love sharing things that you learn in therapy. Really Like I just love having time to talk to other really smart people, other folks who are helpers and healers and people who are here to really just share high quality information to the general public and to fellow therapists and psychologists. And so my guest today is here to do that very thing and I'm just grateful.
Speaker 1:So, jessica's here today. You're going to introduce yourself, tell us one fun thing about you, and we're going to talk about trauma. I feel like trauma is something we've covered a couple of times for sure on the podcast, but I continue to invite experts in trauma on the show because we have to keep talking about it. You know it's becoming less stigmatized to talk about it and the only way it's going to continue to become less and less a stigma is if we keep, keep, keep on talking about it. So, jessica, thanks for being here, introduce yourself and tell us one fun thing about you, thank you so much for having me, Beth.
Speaker 2:My name is Jessica Vandermeer and I'm a licensed mental health counselor in Oregon or in Washington and a licensed professional counselor in Oregon and I have a private practice in Oregon and I specialize in trauma, of course, in complex PTSD, and I'm certified brain spotting therapist and certified trauma and forum stabilization therapist and that's my thing. I just, I really am passionate about working with those of us that have experienced developmental complex trauma and acute traumas and our survivors and are looking to heal. And I think that you're to your point, Beth, that we're.
Speaker 2:The de stigmatization of trauma is so profound and are in this time especially, sometimes can be over generalized. But I think that when we can really understand what we're experiencing and that it has a name and that the symptoms of things we're experiencing isn't something wrong with us, but it's a actual, normal and adaptive process of our brains and bodies to protect us, it can be absolutely life changing. Just knowing, having that information and I am I always find so much joy to and I know that's maybe a strange thing to say, but it's true I was a lot of joy in in educating my clients and other people about what they're experiencing is a normal response to an extreme and overwhelming situation. And you're normal and you have ability to heal, and that is really profound in my book.
Speaker 1:I mean buckle up everyone. I mean look, jessica's already out the game. I'm a liar, you are ready. I mean you are ready to come with deep and meaningful things and I'm here for it. I'm ready, and I know listeners are too. So, okay, you've talked about kind of a lot of different words around trauma, different types of trauma, that you have just said, yeah, can you help folks? You know, maybe there's somebody who maybe they've heard this word, you know, developmental trauma or the different types of trauma you described. Can you give us kind of what is, what are all those things mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question and I know it can get really confusing and trauma is like a catch all word for a lot of things. So, and I will do my best, and so some of this, may you know, may need some checking, source checking, but this is how I explain it to that.
Speaker 1:That's what we want. You know, people can search up different types of trauma.
Speaker 2:Right, but what?
Speaker 1:I want is the therapist. You know how would you explain it to your clients who are like I don't think I've experienced any of those things. We you can. I haven't. I had none of those now, but you're like Well, actually, what I mean by this is Right.
Speaker 2:So a lot of times when we talk about trauma we're associating like a really big event, like an accident, like military experience or like an assault and we think that's what trauma is, or physical abuse, that's what trauma is, or those sort of big things big. We call them big T trauma sometimes and so when someone says, but I haven't had One of those things happened to me, so therefore I this can't be trauma, I Say wait, hold on one moment. This is what we call small t trauma is is complex trauma in particular is repeated Wounding from an attachment figure in your life, so repeated experience of Not having needs met, emotionally in particular, or physically, or Could be having, maybe, instead of not having needs met, having too much of something, too much intensity. Or, in Gina Fisher's work, which is someone I've wonderful Psychologists who developed trauma-informed stabilization treatment and Asks have you ever experienced your, your caregiver, as Frightened or frightening? And that's a great question because a lot of times we think, well, my whole life was fine, but my, my dad was scary, or my mom was scary or my mom was afraid all the time. And if you have a parent or a caregiver that's frightened or Frightening or both at various times in your developmental experience. You are surely going to feel that neurologically and In our nervous systems, because we are wired to attune to our caregivers right, we are wired to attune so that we know are we safe, like as a child, a child's mind and I know you work with kids and you have all a lot of this developmental background that's what I mean. My developmental is there.
Speaker 2:If there is a child that is Experiencing from a young age, maybe even pre-verbal, before you have words to put to what's happening, but the body is registering, something is very frightening and fear or anxiety is coming up, your nervous system and codes that and the brain is designed to protect the child around that to either we're gonna we're typically for a child, we're gonna either be freezing and Associating or we're gonna go into good girl, good boy, good, good child mode of what is mom or dad need right now to make this better? How can I take care of them in Order to make this better? I've done something To make them upset. Is it typically what a child is? You know they're. So when we're children we have that eco-centric model. We're like it's. We don't have the ability to process like, oh, this might be their problem. The child only feels it as I've done something bad.
Speaker 1:It's I mean this already, I'm sure relates to so many people, right that this question of have you ever experienced a caregiver as frightened or frightening, and then really helping folks kind of identify. Okay, yeah, maybe there were some things that Did happen in my childhood. It doesn't mean that your change does a person. It doesn't mean your, your caregivers, were bad people. I Truly believe every caregiver is doing the best they know how with the tools they have right now. That's right. And so this, this conversation, is not meant to, you know, sound like we're blaming anyone, and I know you do this in therapy too. You, you say it's okay for us to acknowledge hard things that happened to us when we were young. Help blaming people, right? We're not blaming anyone, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:I think that Is really important, that you're mentioning that, because I know when you know if someone comes in like well, my, my childhood was fine and great, and I'm like, okay, you know, like seems like there's some other stuff coming up and maybe the childhood was fine, there was support, but something else happened later on. But in the case where maybe there was some deficits and we don't get a need met, they're being human and we aren't there to villainize a parent that was doing their best by any means, and nor are we there to excuse behavior by a parent that was hurtful or abusive. So there is a balance of striking and saying no, we're not villainizing, but we are acknowledging that a need was not met. And that creates this dialectical kind of thinking of having the both and of they aren't bad and yet something happened that felt bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and both can be true at the same time, rather than saying this bad thing happened and it's your fault, therefore you're bad, yeah. So we're really creating that flexibility between us going that thing happened. They're not necessarily bad and they had their own traumas, they had their own things that are going on in their life and they did the best they could, and the best, sometimes caused some harm or caused some pain, and now we have to reconcile that and see this is connected. Both can be true and that is a stretch. It takes some time.
Speaker 1:I was going to say that's the first hurdle, right I mean well one of the first hurdles is to recognize that both things can be true.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's huge. Yeah, both things can be true, because the parts of us that are really polarized, that want to be all or nothing, are like, ah, but I can't smash these two things together, I can't reconcile these two things, and we have those internal conflict around it. Of course, it's a really hard thing to deal with and to hold at the same time and it takes time to kind of expand, like our inner workings, to be able to do that and say because I think it also is necessary to feel the appropriate stages of grief when we have a realization to make space for the anger, make space for the parts that need to blame, make space for all of the feeling without judgment toward it. So, yeah, a part of you is really angry at your parent for realizing you did not get this need met or this is what happened to you and maybe it was connected to them, maybe it wasn't, but right now we're noticing that that's an important thing that needs to be acknowledged and validated.
Speaker 1:That is so good. I know we're going to come back to some of this partswork that you do and I love it. I was thinking about another question, as you were talking about big T trauma and little T trauma, and the thing that I hear from people a lot is well, I didn't have any of those big T trauma. Yes, I had some of those little T traumas, but why is my body responding this way? It's almost like they think they don't deserve to have the reaction because they are quote little T trauma. I think it's almost even kind of a disservice that even we as professionals call them big T and little T traumas. I know, Because none of this is little. Your body doesn't experience any of this trauma as little, and so can you just sort of clarify for folks about how the body responds to kind of both those big T and little T traumas?
Speaker 2:Right. Also, I know I'm using big T and little T. Oh it happens, and I certainly. I actually never use that when I talk about trauma. Isn't that interesting, mel? But I hear.
Speaker 1:I've heard that in workshops I mean. I think it's a natural way that we talk about it. But I think to your point. It is tricky, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It is, and I think we're just, we're doing the best we can to kind of hurt and going this is this, wouldn't we say small T. I don't want that. I think that's why we say complex, because it is complex if it's repeated relational injuries.
Speaker 1:So are you saying complex trauma is the same as little T trauma?
Speaker 2:I don't think I would say that, ok, complex trauma is big T trauma in the way that we're looking at this today, and especially on the spectrum of traumas. Ok, you know, like most things, trauma exists on a spectrum, yeah, and I think everyone is going to experience something. Their experiences are unique to them, but also we have severities that are going to increase and what kind of responses our body is having, what kind of responses our brain is going to be doing and having, adapting to how we respond to relationships in the future from there on. So, yes, I just wanted to clarify that too. I love that. Thank you for doing that. Oh, yeah, the minimizing we do.
Speaker 2:I think, coming back to your original question, it was around when we want to minimize or invalidate our experiences and how unhelpful that can be, but also noticing how a minimizing I would call it a minimizing part would want to do that to really reduce the vulnerability that's being felt in the moment, because it is such a vulnerable and overwhelming experience to be hijacked by a triggered response.
Speaker 2:And if we have a part that goes this is dumb, you have no right to feel this way, get over it. You're being dramatic. Oh my gosh, what is wrong with you. People have such worse problems than you. And all of that rhetoric goes on and on. Well, notice how that is trying to be helpful, how that says it's trying to be a protective mechanism, that part that goes let's just calm down everyone and put this somewhere else so that we don't have to feel this uncomfortable feeling and we don't have to notice how vulnerable this feels and does that make sense, yes, I love this and I love how you're sort of like walking through this particular way, that we all might have heard other people talk about drama, or maybe we've experienced it in our own lives, right Like these thoughts, these reactions.
Speaker 1:maybe even somebody in your life has said those exact words to you Mm-hmm, oh yeah. And when we have those thoughts, what you're saying is we can still see how that part of us can be helpful and useful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and reframing it that way as a part that's looking to protect you, and so maybe I should just dive in a little bit to kind of how the part stuff works and it might be helpful. Then too, I'm gonna go a step back for a second just to a little of the brain stuff that might be helpful to know. So, first of all, like, information is key, right, yeah, we can. If we're here to normalize ourselves and to be able to validate the experiences we're having, it can be very helpful to know there's science behind it. Yeah, and I'm just making the thought yeah, yeah, you know to know that.
Speaker 2:Okay, quickly, you know what, when we have our parts of the brain and I'm not gonna go into a long whole thing on this, maybe this is for another time but when something happens that is too much, too soon or not enough, if there's a like we quote, unquote trauma that occurs, or if there's something that happens and shocks our system, right, we're feeling that in our nervous system and our brain is registering that in our limbic system, which is that sub-particle part of the brain where amygdala is, our campuses, our thalamus, is all of those parts of the brain that really are holding feeling, memories and experiences, some nonverbal but most experiential pain and emotions. It's like emotions are wired hot, right, yep, and our limbic system has no sense of time. It's sort of encoded and it's there and it's like, okay, that terrible thing happened and now we need to be very alert to that and know that we can look for that in any way that could be a threat to us. That's what we're, you know, when trauma generalizes, yep, and having that be like a little time capsule, that sort of when it switches on with something that feels familiar to that original wound or that trauma, and all of a sudden we're feeling a deep response of like not in our stomach, or we're feeling a sense of nausea or tightness in our chest, or panic, or what have you? Some part of you has gotten hijacked, right, like that's when that feeling is like, hey, that trauma thing is happening right now. That thing happened that first time. It's happening now too. It's not like, oh, that happened then. This isn't as bad. All that your brain registers is that it's happening again now. Yeah, just as bad as it happened the first time. That's why it feels so overwhelming and we're like what is wrong with me? It was such a little thing, but, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Well, because it's basically unlocking that implicit memory, that feeling memory we call them feeling flashbacks as well of that original trauma, right? So what we're doing, by increasing our awareness of naming it as a oh, a part of me is feeling this way. We're accessing our peripheral cortex, which is, of course, you know, a lot of us know, but if you don't know, this is the part of our brain right behind our forehead that is doing all of our executive functioning, all of our thinking, planning, awareness in the here and now, and is very much more in our logical thinking brain. So when we are noticing, we're doing any kind of noticing. We can frame that as mindfulness. We're having awareness of we're noticing ourselves. Noticing. It's very meta, right, yeah, yeah. But when we can notice ourselves noticing, then we have our prefrontal cortex online, yep, and we can do that.
Speaker 2:When we are triggered and this is the key for starting to heal the brain and the body from those trauma responses is starting with noticing. Noticing that I'm triggered right now I'm noticing pause in between the immediate response that could go to like a really big, inflamed response. You know, we all know we can fly into rage, we can dissociate. We can. You know, flee, we can say something we don't mean. In a state like this, we can do lots of different things. This is the noticing practice is already immediately bringing a pause button and then we're getting our prefrontal cortex online. That is the key, and it is so amazing. It seems so simple.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I realized that in the moment, right when we're super triggered about something and we're having a really strong intrusive feeling, thought or overwhelming sensation, it's take some practice to get our prefrontal lobes online to be able to say oh, this is what that is. So when I talk to my clients, I say you know what? All I want you to know is just practice noticing, even if it's after the fact. Let's say, something happens and you get really triggered about something, okay, and you're like oh, I didn't notice it in the moment, that's fine. Just look back and go oh, that's what that was Like. That's the first step of just starting to get to know like that's what that is. Even if it's in retrospect, that's okay. That's the process. It's a process of slowly identifying what's happening in the moment.
Speaker 1:I love that you're talking about this. I think I'm having sort of this like double reaction, right. I'm like picturing, you know, a listener who is like, well, that's amazing, because that sounds like fairly simple. It's not simple. Right In the moment, to your point, it might feel very, very hard and overwhelming. And I think that that's the other part that I'm sure you experience as a therapist I know I do when I've talked with folks about trauma is that noticing doesn't feel like it's enough to match the intensity that I'm feeling in this triggered space, right? So how can you help folks appreciate the process? Oh yeah, just noticing may not feel like it reaches the same level of intensity that you're feeling in that moment, but it doesn't mean that it's not a great first step, right? Like, how do you help people understand that?
Speaker 2:Right. Well, the way that you know I help them understand that is that that's not all we're doing. That's just simply an opening. Yeah, this is the first step. First step. Yeah, and know that it's hard to be patient with yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, girl, we want the result now.
Speaker 2:Yes, people are like I want to feel better now, though I'm like yes, yes, and it's a yes and, and this is a process. That is where we use the phrase slower is faster, where we take our time to pump the break and know this is a process and all we need to do right now is just this basic thing and when we can do that and we can and it's a lot of repetition of just doing that over and over it's hard, it's hard to be patient with yourself, and then I would notice there's a part of you that feels urgency right now, and we can get curious about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I have to believe that many folks might feel urgency because they don't want to suffer anymore, obviously, but then also I know I've experienced folks that feel like it's just never going to get better. That feeling of hopelessness when we start to do some of the trauma processing work. How can we encourage folks, even when we have to be patient?
Speaker 2:I wonder if it'd be helpful for me to walk through a little bit more of the steps as well. Yeah, let me be very honest. Work is so hard, so hard. Yes, if you've had a lifetime of traumatic experiences and then you're showing up to therapy. A lifetime doesn't get undone easily and it's not necessarily going to be undone. What we're doing is building a different kind of relationship to ourself than we've ever had before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a way to say, ok, this takes trust in yourself to do and that takes time to build. It takes trust in me as a therapist or the process as therapy, and that can take time to establish. Yeah, and that is something that I feel is very nuanced for each person to know. How can I trust this thing and know that, yeah, if we do this once or twice, it's probably not going to feel awesome. Yeah, going to be after we're doing this for several months we're going to be going. Ok, I'm getting it now Like I'm seeing how this is working, because I'm feeling a difference in my nervous system.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling my body start to feel more calm, or I'm noticing this is what my clients notice I notice that it didn't take me as long to feel better, or to feel down or to. I noticed that I could stay calm during this. Wow, that is something to celebrate. So it is possible to rewire our nervous systems through this process, and it also takes time and everyone's result quote, unquote, whatever that means will look different. Setting expectations appropriately for the process is important. Is that answering?
Speaker 1:that? Yeah, I love that. Ok, so let's talk about more of your steps that you got.
Speaker 2:What we do is I call this if anyone has ever heard of internal family systems work. We call this unblending from a part, but what we're doing is naming any distressing or overwhelming thought, feeling, response or impulse as a message from a part. So, instead of saying I'm feeling this way, or I'm so stupid or I hate myself, oh, a part of me is saying I hate myself. We're starting with a noticing and naming that there's a part that's triggered and I'm having a feeling flashback can be helpful. Or I'm noticing I'm triggered right now can be helpful, just to pause. Oh, a part of me I'm using that parts language. Part of me is feeling this way. Yeah, ok.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:That is enough to OK a part of me just to pause, because that's a huge thing. To pause, yes, notice. Then what I say is, when I provide this to my clients, this is walk this through steps right. Start by saying to yourself I'm having a trigger trauma response, or this is a triggered reaction of a part, and you're putting that into parts language, reminding yourself this is not my feeling, it's a part's feeling. And if you feel comfortable, you can place a hand on heart or chest or stomach or wherever you're feeling some activation of that part, just to have a sense of connection. Or you can just notice yeah, and you might want to take a moment to also just notice the sensation that's coming up. If you feel very, very overwhelmed by that, take a moment to lengthen your spine or shift your position, sit back a little bit, noticing OK, this is me, and then there's a part that's having this response. And then staying really curious.
Speaker 2:Curiosity is the key here, and curiosity is that activation in our prefrontal lobes that's really going to keep us in a non-judgmental place. Stay curious about what the part is worried will happen. Oh, ok, this is what I do with a lot of my clients is we start to do mindful practice inside, asking inside to the part what are you worried will happen if blank, if something occurs, or what are you worried will happen? Just leave that question as is. Are we learning to attune to ourselves and listen to ourselves inside, noticing what comes up? Oh, it's worried that if I don't do this, then X will happen. Ok, you're getting pieces of information and we're doing a lot of just validation inside to a part. I think that you're afraid right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I can understand how you'd be feeling this way. Just like with any other person in our world that we train ourselves to, we have to learn how to empathize and validate. That must happen inside, to create trust within yourself. I can be with this feeling. I can handle this feeling. This is my part's feeling and I can understand why this part feels afraid or why you've been closer, why you feel afraid inside.
Speaker 2:This is a little bit deeper for you know how to do this, but what we want to do is cultivate that curiosity and notice if there's a what? A wise self or like an adult self we call it a going on with normal life self person. That's like you know, your manager, the manager, the teacher, the mother, the parent, whomever like. How would you be responding if this was another person around, you know? So we're kind of accessing that which is bringing again, accessing our prefrontal lobes. That's really what we want to have online the whole time yeah, yeah, yeah, and just acknowledging that hurt. You can even check in. Am I getting it right? Am I like? You're afraid this is going to happen? Is that right? You'll feel it. You can sense like a gut response or a yes inside and you can ask what. What happened? Could you relax a bit, or would you be able to sit back a bit and let me handle the problem?
Speaker 2:And sometimes that part will say absolutely not, I want all the. I want to be upfront and I want to just control the situation. Okay, you know, then we take it a step further maybe, and like what will help you feel a little bit better, or even 10% better about you know, relaxing a little bit and letting me handle this problem? Or maybe you can come alongside me and I'll show you that I can handle the problem, but give me the chance to show you Could you do that?
Speaker 2:This is some ways that we create inner dialogue with our parts and doing this really can change the game of how one we see ourselves, how we feel about ourselves and our responses. And really attuning to our body and knowing that we can orient around to our surroundings, we can ground and, like bring us into real time and even showing that part it's afraid of something in particular, like just notice where I am, notice that we're not at that scary house that you're worried about. We're right here and we're safe right now, even though my body, our body, we feel danger. We are not in danger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just am picturing how powerful this must be for folks who can experience this and in the therapy room, when folks can really put in that terribly just hard work. But it also sounds like terribly powerful and just so empowering. It sounds like it minimizes all of that fear and anxiety and really moves you into a feeling of being empowered.
Speaker 2:It sure can, it absolutely can and it can also. Sometimes we sit with the feelings. We learn how to be with our fear, be curious and continue to stay curious with it, or just be with the feeling until later on we might feel more empowered. But to know just that, expectations, sometimes it just feels really yucky and hard and that's okay. That's okay. Yeah, that can be okay, we can be okay. Even when that you mentioned I'm referring back to your episode on anger. I don't remember what number that was, but if you you know you're talking about this is not a forever feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing like knowing this is a trigger response and it feels like it was going to last forever, when we see no end in sight. But knowing this is going to, this will pass, and I'm with this feeling right now and I'm with this part right now I can be really hopeful too.
Speaker 1:This just so good, and I'm so thankful that you're you're sharing all of this stuff. If people want to kind of learn more about you and the work you do, can you tell folks a little bit about your website or any of the work you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you can find me at Protea, like the flower, with Protea counseling PNW for Pacific Northwestcom. If you're interested in trauma informed stabilization treatment, I can also, you know, provide some of these bearer Virginia Fisher's work and credit her for that. And yeah, that'd be a good start.
Speaker 1:I know that we really just scratched the surface. I mean, I know you went real deep in to. You know these steps, but also that there's just so much to kind of cover around complex trauma, our body's reaction. You know even the. You know the parts work you talked about. There's so much to kind of chat about. So I'm grateful you came today. I'm hopeful you'll come again and we can kind of continue this conversation or dig into, you know, the many, many other expert things that you have to share with us. So thanks for saying yes to being here today.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been amazing, thank you.
Speaker 1:Listener, thank you for joining and until next time. Stay safe and stay well.
