Ep67: Unmasking Imposter Syndrome: Exploring its Root Causes and Overcoming Achievemaphobia

Ever felt like a fraud waiting to be discovered? Imposter syndrome can be a frustratingly persistent companion for many of us. Join Kindall Tyson, a seasoned licensed professional counselor and myself as we dissect this phenomenon that affects a staggering 70% of Americans. Together, we unravel how this syndrome doesn't merely stem from internal turmoil, but is significantly influenced by our environment, systems, race, gender, and even episodes of life transitions.

Ever been terrified of achieving your dreams? There's a name for that - 'achievemaphobia', and Kindall and I dive right into this intriguing aspect as we explore the fear of success and how it compounds the feelings of imposter syndrome. We open up about our personal experiences, discussing how societal expectations, comparisons, and the daunting prospect of being 'found out' can fuel this phobia. And speaking of fuel, we tackle the subtle but harmful effects of microaggressions in our workplaces and personal lives, and how they fan the flames of imposter syndrome. This episode is packed with vulnerability, practical wisdom, and open conversation - so come join us in challenging the norm and understanding ourselves a little better.


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Transcript

Dr. Beth Trammell: 0:12

All right, listener, welcome back. I am glad you're here today, and I am especially glad that my guest, kendall Tyson, decided to come back. Yeah, I just can't get enough of just talking and hearing from you, and so I'm just so thankful you're here. This is Things you Learned in Therapy and I'm your host, dr Beth Tramot. I'm a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at IU East in Richmond, indiana, and I focus on behavior and communication strategies to increase connection. My focus is to make words matter for good, and so Kendall and I are both kind of like weird word people. I don't think it's weird, but I love words. I know you love words, but that's not what we're talking about today.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 0:51

Today, we are going to continue our conversation from the first time, and I re-listened to our episode from earlier. I want to encourage folks if you didn't listen to the episode that I shared with Kendall on season three, please go back and listen to the episode, because I listened again and found just again so many things that this issue of imposter syndrome is so much more complicated than I even I originally thought, and I've been studying this for a long time. Right, I've been in this field for a long time, and so, for anyone listening who has no idea what imposter syndrome is, we're going to talk just a little bit about that, and y'all are in for a treat today, because I just know that this conversation is going to be threaded with both vulnerability and practical wisdom, and I just always love conversations like that. So, kendall, introduce yourself to folks and tell us one fun thing about you.

Kindall Tyson: 1:53

Hello again everyone. My name is Kendall Tyson. I am a licensed professional counselor supervisor. Now I got that designation, happy about it. One fun thing about me I may have shared this before or not is that I have been living and working abroad, in Beijing, china, running my therapy practice, working at an international school, consulting, doing therapy, for the last five years. I'm also an ex cheerleading captain, so I like to be in charge.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 2:32

You didn't know this the last time you didn't share this ex cheerleading captain.

Kindall Tyson: 2:37

Yeah, two years in a row.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 2:38

That's kind of intense actually.

Kindall Tyson: 2:40

It is. And the funny thing? Well, I don't know what was funny, but my mother is the first black head cheerleader in our hometown. Wow, talk about like it runs in your blood.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 2:50

It does. Oh my gosh, this is going to come back and tie into some of the things we're going to talk about, because that's amazing, I love learning this new thing about you and your mom. I am not a cheerleader I never really. Yeah, I'm just not built for cheerleading. I don't know what it is, I just don't necessarily have that, and so I'm always like just so happy to meet people who have those things that I just don't have. Naturally, I don't force myself to do things like that, but just no, just not natural. So last time we talked about imposter syndrome and for anybody who's listening who didn't get a chance to hear that but they're going to go back and listen to it now let's just give like a very kind of brief opening about what imposter syndrome is, and then we're going to dive way deep today, folks. So just buckle up.

Kindall Tyson: 3:41

Yeah.

Kindall Tyson: 3:42

So when defining imposter syndrome it's, I would say research has said you know definition say that it's like this persistent inability, unwillingness to believe that you are successful, that your success is deserved, that you're legitimately capable of achieving like these lofty goals and that your effort is the vehicle that you've been able to attain this success.

Kindall Tyson: 4:14

So it's really that struggle with believing that you are the one that has has done the work and manifested the things that have you know come out and or the successes that you've acquired in your life.

Kindall Tyson: 4:25

I was reading something the other day where it stated that, like about 70% of Americans have experienced these feelings and they're often prevalent among people that what we would call high achieving. But when you add like a racialized component I would say gender race they intensify, like the mental health impact for those that experience imposter syndrome. So it's this multifaceted phenomena that I think we're really we should really dig a bit deeper into, because it impacts so many people in so many different areas, different industries, and I think when we get a I won't even say a good understanding, I would say because we have a good understanding now, or at least people in their lived experiences have a good understanding of what it is. Once we, I think, have more institutional understanding of what that looks like a person's bird's eye view of what that looks like and actually listen and create policy and process around how do we, you know, help people in these situations, and hopefully we'll see less and less people that are struggling with this particular type of challenge.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 5:50

I remember being struck so many times by our conversation last time around. How you know, my initial perception of what kind of I was taught or what I kind of learned about imposter syndrome was that it was like an internal thing, like it was me feeling like I'm not good enough in me and not necessarily how much of the environment that we live in and how we belong or perceive ourselves to belong to that particular environment and the systems that sort of govern that environment. So I just love asking us to pause to think more about this idea and I am especially thankful that you are here and even sharing amidst sort of this transition that you're in and your own life and your kind of professional life also and how you know, I know you and I have both talked about how this has been something we have both experienced at various points, and when we're in a transition or in any kind of change, it's the prime time for imposter syndrome to creep in.

Kindall Tyson: 7:01

Yes, I think of it. If I'm externalizing like the feelings of imposter syndrome, I liken it to my deceased Chihuahua prince, like just pops up and nibbles you all the wrong time and never goes away. It's like this nagging little thing. But yeah, you're saying transitions in life. I'm undergoing a huge life transition in this moment Because I stated I Well, I'm in Texas right now because I'm on vacation technically, but in the fall I'll be returning to Beijing for what is supposed to be my last year at this international school and this would be my sixth year in Beijing and it's bringing up lots of thoughts and lots of feelings.

Kindall Tyson: 8:00

And the feelings of imposter syndrome have been very strong For me, you know, the last few months and I'm pretty sure that there are listeners and other people in our profession that can attest to really just questioning their ability and capabilities and and like the desires that they have when they're making such lofty decisions and leaning into really big goals that they have for themselves. I'm sure that there are all the thoughts and all the feelings that are attached to that. You know, am I good enough? Is this really what I want to do? And then that that need for security and safety, at least for me, is like really strong, like the imposter syndrome recently has manifested itself for me in a lot of fear.

Kindall Tyson: 8:52

Yeah, I mean, I already deal with anxiety, so the fear of the uncertainty, of the unknown, that's commonplace. I know how to work through that on a daily basis. Yeah, yeah, but just really wondering like what, what? What does this even mean for me? Right, what does this transition like hold? And there's this. I'll go ahead and share the word that we were talking about earlier and it's let me I hope I say it right it's let me get my notes. It's achieve my phobia.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 9:25

Achieve my phobia.

Kindall Tyson: 9:26

Achieve my phobia and that is a fear of success. And you know, you know, paraphrasing the definition that you know, I found that there is like this internalized it's like the internalization of failure as a positive feedback loop, but really being afraid of what is like success mean for you and then, having achieved success, are you able to sustain success and does that lead to higher expectations of you, which exacerbates, like, the workload, the stress and things that you currently are having to deal with in the present? So it's a lot. Yeah, I think I've said a lot so far.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 10:17

You know, I know that we we kind of talked that this idea of achieve my phobia I think a lot of people probably experience, but I think a lot of people also are like that doesn't even make sense. Why would somebody be afraid of success? Isn't that what we all want? So how do we help people understand this is a real thing.

Kindall Tyson: 10:42

Um, I would say, if you're looking at people's motivations, like what's your why? Right, how does that align with, like, this fear of success and, honestly, who is the success for? Yeah, who are you? I think there may be an element of us trying to prove something to somebody, maybe ourselves, maybe people outside of ourselves. Um, and when there's like this fear of success, I know for me personally, there is a lot of internalized things attached to it, as well as a lot of externalized societal notions that determine what does success mean and look like for a woman of my age, you know, doing the work that I do, and so one of the things if we're linking it back to imposter syndrome, one of the things if you're trying to really care for yourself and identify, like in working through the already acknowledged feelings of imposter syndrome, is one of the key things to reduce is comparison. However, if we're looking at the achieve my phobia there is I speaking for myself and people that I know and people that I've worked with there is this persistent Need to compare, or maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's unintentional, but it just always shows up. Yeah, right, comparing at this stage of life, yourself to other people, and what does that mean to you? How will you be judged? How will you be seen? And then, looping back, am I even good enough? Does the success even matter that much? You know doesn't look like their success. So it feels like this never ending feedback loop when you're starting with maybe childhood notions of you know, expectation of success.

Kindall Tyson: 12:39

I am a black woman in America. The expectation to be successful is heavy, and that's not just what I believe for myself, that's something that's been ingrained in me since I was young. I was sharing with you earlier that a lot of my identity has been formed around being the successful daughter, right. Well, we know that she's going to make it and you know she's always risen to the top and she's always the best of her class.

Kindall Tyson: 13:11

And all those internalized notions really did exacerbate my anxiety. Because then it's like well, this is how everybody sees me, this is, for some people, how I derive love and affection from them, because I am achieving Right. So what happens if I don't? Then there's this I can't make mistakes and I can't, you know, mess up and I have to have this particular image and I have to be seen in certain ways. So if I push myself too much for this success that I want cannot even attain that. Sustain that. What if it doesn't happen right, thereby leading back to that. Is this where I'm even supposed to be? So it's so multifaceted and it feels like the multiverse of confusion.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 14:04

It really is. But I am just so grateful that you shared that because I think it really does continue to illuminate how many facets there are to this imposter syndrome we're talking about. People in our lives tell us we're gonna do great things. They say they believe in us, and while those things are amazing and we love to hear those things when we're in that feedback loop, it is the very thing that reinforces those thoughts that come with the imposter syndrome right when it's like okay, but what if I'm not? And what if I make a mistake? And it's easier just to stay in this place of safety or this place of comfort or not take a risk, because that's easier than having to explain to these people that I'm not good enough or that I couldn't make it and then, all along, I was a fraud.

Kindall Tyson: 15:03

Yeah, ooh, that part. Wow, what if they found me out? Yep.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 15:09

Which is exactly what imposter syndrome tells us is going to happen.

Kindall Tyson: 15:15

Exactly, with no evidence to support it. But there's always like this lingering notion oh my God, they're gonna really learn that I don't know anything, that I how did I even get to this point that I'm not the person that they think that I am? That's our internal struggle and battle where, from other people's perspectives and vantage points, they're just like how was she even doing all this, right? How are you able to acquire these accomplishments, work towards all the things that you've done? I hear this all the time from people as I'm sitting and we're just talking and it's like the therapist, like they never just shuts off and I'm asking these questions about their life and then they're like so tell me about yourself and I go straight to what I do, what I've done, that's right, not who I am and the things that I desire, but again the identity, base and accomplishment. And they're just like oh, my goodness, right, you've done so much. And I'm thinking like what?

Kindall Tyson: 16:19

It's like a complete refuting of what they see a difficulty in believing that it could be real. Like, are you sure? And I know, like my family, they get really irritated with my self belief, my lack of self belief in certain areas, because they're just like if you could only see what I see, and so these are things that I say to other people as well. It's so easy to. I noticed that it's so easy to pull like the successes and the affirming words and feelings out of others when it's so hard speaking personally for myself, like can help other people see and unpack and recognize, you know, their successes and all the things that they've done to get to this point and why they're deserving of being here. I just always wonder what makes it so difficult on a personal level for the individual that makes it easy for others. I still haven't figured that out.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 17:23

It just reminds me too that as therapist, I think this shows up a lot, particularly in moments of our own personal struggle. If I don't have it together, how could I possibly help anyone else? It has to be like one of the most common and posture syndrome thoughts that we therapists have, like that loop of I've gotta like either stuff it or get it together, or I. It's just that that that.

Kindall Tyson: 18:01

The way that, when you say that, it makes me think of like I was reading this article one day, a few years ago I think it was before I left for China and this therapist was detailing her experience with bipolar disorder and whether or not like to be open about it, and I forgot what I was reading it in and to disclose it. And so, as I hear you, you know, share that sentiment. It makes me think, like for us in the human, you know, in the helping profession, doing a lot of good human connection work, sometimes I feel like it's difficult for us to show or be open about our human side, like the fact that I have anxiety and have my own therapist and things of that nature which sometimes fuels am I even good enough to be doing this work? Yeah Right, who am I? And that kind of leads I wonder.

Kindall Tyson: 19:06

For others I've noticed that with you know, friends that I've spoken to sometimes it leads to, like another thing that I, you know, have recognized in my research this need to over prepare. I need to go get another degree, which is something that I'm considering right now. As I say it, I need to go get another degree, I need another certificate, I need to do another training, you know. Of course we have CEUs and stuff that we are required to do, stay on top of things, right, fabulous, but that's more of a licensing thing when I think of well, if only I just knew this, you know, and this, then maybe I could be of better service to the clients that I support and myself professionally.

Kindall Tyson: 19:54

I say this to students that I work with all the time what's the end point Like? What's the goal? Right, how is this additional learning gonna help you? Is it gonna help you feel better about yourself? You know, is it gonna help you in the long run and the short run? How does it fit into the grants game of things? Or does it continue to go into this black hole of never enough?

Dr. Beth Trammell: 20:18

Oh, my goodness. Yes, there is this continually learning and growing for the sake of continually learning and growing. And then there is this I have to do so that I can be fill in the blank.

Kindall Tyson: 20:34

And I wonder, is it even like this element of you know, proven to yourself? If I just have this additional thing, then I'll know that I'm good enough professionally, I'll know that this is exactly where I'm supposed to be, like I'll feel a bit more settled. I don't know if that's true. I'm wondering does the feeling settled in the certainty of your capabilities, your abilities come before the need to continue to add all the accolade and the learning and the letters so then that the world can see you as competent and effective? Who knows?

Dr. Beth Trammell: 21:20

I love sort of remembering that times of transition, times of change, are going to be like prime time for imposter syndrome to creep. But I also think what we were talking about earlier, right, is this how well you feel connected to a particular space or place or time also impacts our level of imposter syndrome. Yeah, okay, let's go there, because you know I have something to say so.

Kindall Tyson: 21:57

Yes, big moments in your life, times of transition, when you're really trying to figure out the next rung on the ladder, the next, you know, part of the journey, and I would even, to your point, say that that sense of belonging because we work in places most of our life, right, feeling as if you are an integral, wanted individual in your professional and personal life I think has a large, it's a big factor in determining I won't even say if you have imposter syndrome, because you know, like you said, 70% of people Right, I think that'll, it'll happen. But I wonder if it exacerbates it or not. If structures in the systems that are present or not in your workplaces, in your professional settings, create an empathetic and understanding environment, welcoming environment, culturally responsive environment, I would, I would hope that it reduces, like the thoughts and feelings of imposter syndrome. I can say I'll share this. This year I spent, oh, I feel it it's. I told you it's in my throat, it's okay, oh, okay, okay. Nothing wrong with being emotional. I'm having to coach myself in my head right now.

Kindall Tyson: 23:38

So I had an experience this year. It's not unlike many that I've experienced before, but for some reason it just hit different. You know, being at the school that I'm at currently just doing all the, and as I sit here and say this out loud, I feel like I'm having to prove again. I feel like I'm checking off a list of why somebody should have never even made this statement about me. Before I even say this statement it was. It was shared with me that an individual at my job made a comment about me being oh well, she's only here because she's a diversity hire and, as I say it, I get frustrated and I feel really emotional. So, as I say it, because when I learned that I was like I'm pretty feisty, but in that moment I felt so shut down and the person who shared it with me I don't believe it was malicious intent, I think it was more. I just want you to know so that you can protect yourself. And one of my maladaptive ways of coping is I would draw when I don't feel safe and like I've acclaimed myself in work. So it just exacerbates kind of what I already experienced and I can definitely identify like an uptick and like stress.

Kindall Tyson: 25:11

I'm still recovering from burnout, you know, really not spending time with people, because I was really in my head and like wondering, like you know, how could this person make such a statement about me? I have, I've done this and this and this and this and I'm just like, but I'm doing exactly. What this individual wanted is to question my capability and my ability, right, because they see something, whatever it is, doesn't matter to me, or maybe they feel threatened, I don't know, but here I am deep into. Well, how could somebody say this about me? Let me, you know, run off the list of accomplishments that I've worked hard for, and it wasn't even registering that, yeah, you work all hard, you've done all these things, so you shouldn't be worried about this.

Kindall Tyson: 25:59

I was more worried about what if people continue to see me as not deserving to be here, and then this system, this ecosystem that I'm in professionally, I feel like I'm walking around being the butt of a joke that I don't know anything about, working my butt off to make sure that I'm providing good services to students and families and staff, and so situations like this, these micro aggressive situations, definitely impact clients of color, of color clinicians of color, women, people that don't fit that heteronormative stereotype.

Kindall Tyson: 26:42

I work in a system where it is predominantly white, but we serve a population that is culturally Chinese, and so there's lots of racial and social and class factors that go into play, cultural factors that go into play, and when I think of the word imposter syndrome, there's a huge percentage of staff students that are experiencing this phenomenon, not feeling like they're good enough in the system that we've created. My thought is always so then what do we do? What does it look like to create a professional organization and educational setting that calls out specific behavior and creates programming systems of support to foster a more empathetic and culturally responsive type of environment? That's the thing I'm on right now is what does it look like to be a culturally responsive clinician? How do we create culturally responsive systems and environments and what are the implications of such? So we need to do better.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 28:06

We need to do better and, kendall, I have to. I mean, I just have to pause and I'm so sorry that happened to you. I can't fathom how that felt in that moment, to feel like this place of work that you had been and just the level of safety that's just sort of ripped away and the level of value that's just ripped away and that that's true, right, I mean that's a true lived experience. And I think when I do work with people or organizations around, like understanding the impact of microaggressions, I think the most irritating response that I hear from people and irritating is not even like strong enough a word, right, where they're just like well, I mean, it was just one comment. You know, kendall, like it's not just one comment, the one comment is just the opening of the floodgate. Yeah, it's like the.

Kindall Tyson: 29:15

Lego. It is like one of a million little Legos that keeps being added together. That makes this mound of what's the word I'm looking for discomfort, and I don't even know the appropriate term to use but not culturally responsive, and I think that we lose so much. Like, professionally, we're in settings that require a lot of us, so having psychological safety should be, in my estimation, as someone that has not felt psychologically safe in any work environment, like number one and really tapping into individuals at work that are brave enough to share. What does it look like for you to feel like you belong Like? What are the actions, what are the behaviors? You know? A needs assessment, honestly, of how to recreate this type of environment that is gonna foster your feelings of belongingness and understanding, that's gonna be empathetic and that's going to then help increase productivity, right, because when people feel like they belong, like their work is important that you're being recognized. They do more and you don't necessarily have to ask them to do more because they have this innate desire to continue to just produce.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 30:42

I already know this is what our next episode's gonna be. How can we create like really tangible ways that folks can take small steps toward more culturally responsive workplaces?

Kindall Tyson: 30:59

Ooh, that's a good, let me think. Let me, so I would say one is assessing how culturally responsive is your current workplace, working with professionals that really lean into that work, that have expertise in that work, to kind of assess what is your situation like right now? And I would say we know so. There's this colloquial term, like in the black community it might be in other communities as well, but it's essentially the fish rocks from the head, and that means that it all starts with leadership. So making sure to have leadership that is open to these really timely and challenging conversations and paradigm shifts that have to take place in a workplace in order for it to be more culturally responsive, which hopefully will, through the work, have people feeling as if I know that I belong here and this is how I know it, because leadership is culturally diverse, ethnically diverse. There's gender diversity. There's gender expression diversity, right, and individuals that break the rules. They are reprimanded and we are recognized for the work that we do and that looks representative of the population right that we serve.

Kindall Tyson: 32:35

I would definitely say creating affinity spaces for underrepresented individuals in the workplace and taking to heed what their suggestions are, yeah, and just being supportive of individuals that are open enough and brave enough to come forward and share their story, like I reported when I found out what I found out, and I second guessed myself at first, yeah, and I thought like I cannot be a person that encourages other people to speak up and did not do it when I've been aligned Right and it would.

Kindall Tyson: 33:14

It wouldn't sit right with me to know that, not even in the vein of wanting to get someone in trouble. No, I'm just pulling the leadership to know that you're creating an unsafe work environment and I can stand up for myself, but there is somebody who can't. I would even say what does it look like to create systems of advocacy within these workspaces that we find ourselves and reporting systems that actually lead to change? So those are just some things off the top of my mind that I think of. I don't know, just celebrating the diversity of culture and understanding and lived experience that is present in our workplaces and just giving people an opportunity to speak up and share their perspective and hear from one another. We know that sharing our stories builds empathy and understanding. So how do we create spaces to do that in a safe and comfortable environment? I think it's going to be really beneficial.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 34:19

I'm smiling because the last time we came up, I mean we had like all of this, like this stuff at the very end. Now, this is what we do. This is what clients do to us in the therapy room. They like drop this like giant nugget at the very end, you know. And then you're like okay, this is for sure where we're headed the next time you come. And I think, really tangible ways that people need to understand this, like even sharing that story, where people can really tangibly understand how meaningful these things are that we say and do. And so, yeah, I'm just so grateful for you. I mean, I just am so grateful that you have come back again to share so much of your story with listeners, because I think it would be let's run away. It is unfortunately too easy to be silent.

Kindall Tyson: 35:29

But no, internally it can't be easy.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 35:33

It is not easy. It is not, and I think that's why I like paused for so long, because I was trying to figure out how to say it exactly, because it's not and everything is at a cost. So for this episode we're going to pause. How can people find you and learn more about you and then hire you to do some consulting work with their organization?

Kindall Tyson: 35:58

Yes, thank you for the opportunity to share. Well, you can go to my website, aspirecounselingwellcom and message us there. You can follow us on Instagram. Follow me, us me on Instagram at Aspire, underscore Counseling. Well, I also have a podcast where I profile Black X-Pads and we talk about mental health and community. So if you wanted to partake and listen, that's the Black X-Pads experience, or Fomil LinkedIn, kendall Tyson. Those would be the primary ways of connecting with me and collaborating with me as well.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 36:38

I hope that you have more business than you can say yes to.

Kindall Tyson: 36:44

That's going to have me to leave China.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 36:47

I'm just grateful. So thank you for saying yes again, and I can't wait until you say yes again and again, thank you for having me.

Kindall Tyson: 36:55

I always enjoy it.

Dr. Beth Trammell: 36:57

It's incredible. Thanks for listening, folks, and until next time. Stay safe, stay well.