Are you a teacher grappling with how to manage challenging behaviors in the classroom, while ensuring recess isn't compromised? Then this conversation is for you. Today, we're joined by the incredible Colleen Martinez, a licensed clinical social worker and an assistant professor at Ramapo College of New Jersey, who is here to empower you with alternative strategies to maintain a positive learning environment without the need to take away recess.
We dive deep into a plethora of topics with Colleen, starting from mastering the art of teaching transitions and creating a strong foundation of positive relationships with your students. We also emphasize the power of effective communication strategies that can bridge the gap between student behavior and classroom expectation. Through real-life scenarios, we explore how to modify behavior in school settings, challenging the notion that misbehaving should be rewarded with attention or coveted items.
In the final segment, we stress the importance of supporting children's behavioral development while fostering a healthy bond of trust and connection. We elaborate on the concept of non-contingent reinforcement, like spending time with a trusted adult, which can make a significant difference in helping children navigate their emotions and behaviors. Tune in and find out how you can strike a balance between catering to an individual child's needs and maintaining fairness in the classroom. This conversation promises to be a game-changer for educators, parents, and anyone interested in children's behavioral development. Don't miss out!
If you, or someone you know, is having mental health challenges and is in need of assistance, please contact 988.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Are you a teacher grappling with how to manage challenging behaviors in the classroom, while ensuring recess isn't compromised? Then this conversation is for you. Today, we're joined by the incredible Colleen Martinez, a licensed clinical social worker and an assistant professor at Ramapo College of New Jersey, who is here to empower you with alternative strategies to maintain a positive learning environment without the need to take away recess.
We dive deep into a plethora of topics with Colleen, starting from mastering the art of teaching transitions and creating a strong foundation of positive relationships with your students. We also emphasize the power of effective communication strategies that can bridge the gap between student behavior and classroom expectation. Through real-life scenarios, we explore how to modify behavior in school settings, challenging the notion that misbehaving should be rewarded with attention or coveted items.
In the final segment, we stress the importance of supporting children's behavioral development while fostering a healthy bond of trust and connection. We elaborate on the concept of non-contingent reinforcement, like spending time with a trusted adult, which can make a significant difference in helping children navigate their emotions and behaviors. Tune in and find out how you can strike a balance between catering to an individual child's needs and maintaining fairness in the classroom. This conversation promises to be a game-changer for educators, parents, and anyone interested in children's behavioral development. Don't miss out!
If you, or someone you know, is having mental health challenges and is in need of assistance, please contact 988.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramon, a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the Masters in Mental Health Counseling program, and I am so happy that we have Colleen back with us again. We recorded and shared an episode with Colleen earlier this season and a few things came up that I thought we've got to have a whole episode on that, and so I'm thrilled that she said yes to being here again, and today we are going to talk about alternatives to taking recess away, and I know that this may not be, you know, some teachers may feel a little bit protective of this, maybe, or maybe a little bit prickly about this, and I want to encourage you, if you're a listener and you're a teacher, that our goal is not to be on the other side of this issue. We're not against you, certainly. I am by far always, always, always talking about supporting educators and the hard, hard work that you do every day, and my goal is for today to be an opportunity for additional ideas, right? So another way of kind of thinking about how do we manage behavior without having to take recess away.
Speaker 1:So that is a long intro. I usually don't do an intro that long, so Colleen is just ready and waiting to share her expertise. But before we do that, colleen, can you introduce yourself to listeners, in case they missed the first episode? Tell us just a little bit about you and one fun thing about you.
Speaker 2:I would be happy to Thanks Beth. So I am Colleen Martinez, a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a registered play therapy supervisor. I am in my current position. I'm an assistant professor at Ramapo College of New Jersey, and I teach graduate and undergraduate students in social work, and so a little bit more.
Speaker 2:I would say that it's good for you to know and you're listeners to know that I've worked with a lot of preschool aged kids with emotional and behavioral issues, often related to trauma, as well as developmental disabilities, and I really want to make school be a place where all children feel good about themselves and they feel like they have relationships and peers with their peers and adults that are really positive, and so that's why I wanted to talk about this topic with you today. And so something fun about me that you haven't heard yet twice in my life, I liked to the peak of Mount Washington in New Hampshire, which is the tallest peak in the Northeast United States. Oh, my goodness, how long is that hike? Well, both times I did it. I did it in two full days. So hike halfway, stay at a hut on the mountain and then hike the rest of the way up. Wow, yeah, cool experience Highly recommend it for people who are outdoorsy and like to challenge themselves.
Speaker 1:OK, so here's the thing, colleen. So it sounds glorious, and when people talk about these like big things, they do right, which I think are amazing. But I am, I love hiking, I'm fully on board. I don't know if I'm a two day, live in a hut, overnight kind of hiker. But the thing that we don't talk about is like some of the things that suck about this. Can you just tell us like one thing that sucked about it? Look like, let's just I love you did it. We all are on the positive train that you did it. But like what's the real thing, like what's one thing that just you were like, well, you know, it was kind of less than ideal.
Speaker 2:Well, not having access to a bathroom all day long. I thought you were getting at that one and thankfully it all worked out OK for me and lots of through hikers go many, many, many days without access to real facilities, but it doesn't get gross. You find ways. Guides, tell you like, the, the, the way to handle your toileting needs when you don't have plumbing.
Speaker 1:You know, like, this is what I'm about. I'm about like celebrating all the good, amazing things in the world, and I also think it is part of what isolates us when we don't talk about like the real hard things too, you know, because another example of this is breastfeeding. So I'm on a weigh tangent here, colleen Sorry, listener, just stick with me for a second. I feel like that way with breastfeeding too that so many you read so many things, you talk about so many things with people that are all great and wonderful and it's such a great experience and it's so bonding and it's all these things, but we don't talk about how hard it is. And I think some women and I can speak for myself for sure that I felt very, I felt very ashamed, that it was such a struggle for me, and I think that it just keeps us isolated.
Speaker 2:So I have to agree with you tremendously and I think that with nursing and breastfeeding, I think that our culture has gotten somewhat better at encouraging parents to talk about it and support each other. I feel like it's a lot better than it was for me when I was the parent of an infant almost 18 years ago. But, yeah, difficult, challenging, not always beautiful and magical, and it is harder to talk about the challenges. I like that you brought that up. Yeah, that's relevant to our topic today.
Speaker 1:I'm glad it is, because I believe that if we can bring light to these things, then I think we feel more connected to the people that we love.
Speaker 1:And so I think, as we step into this topic of challenging behavior in the classroom, you know, I think maybe we do start with hey, acknowledging you and I both step foot in lots of classrooms, we interchange with lots of educators and it's hard, like some of our kiddos have some really challenging behaviors and parents, if you're listening, you might think, well, not my baby, my baby doesn't have those problems and your baby may not have those problems at home, but you put them in a classroom with 22 other peers and they may start to have some of those problems. So I guess you know one thing that I want to start with. We didn't necessarily talk about starting this way, but you know it is hard. I want to acknowledge the hard and I want to be able to provide maybe some additional ideas for folks instead of taking away recess to the kiddo who is really struggling. So where do you want to start?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great place, beth. I also just want to add that I don't think that I am going to come up with any brilliant, magical solutions, and I don't. I probably don't anticipate that you are either. There's nothing that works in all situations for all people all the time, and I definitely do not want our educators to think that we're judging what they're doing. I am a classroom teacher. I teach college and graduate students every day. I could never be an elementary or preschool or even high school teacher. They are doing the hardest work in the world and, just like you said, I think I just want to.
Speaker 2:If I do have observations or perspectives that can be helpful, I just want to share them and, and I mean, should we talk a little bit about why we recommend avoiding taking recess away? Just a little bit, I think it's a great place to start. Yeah, so, as I suggested before, I'm a mental health professional and I believe that providing children with opportunities for movement and opportunities for happiness and opportunities for activity and social engagement are going to help children be more ready to learn, as well as be happier and healthier, and I've read a lot of research that suggests that when we do take away physical activity, recess times for play, kids have a harder time doing what they need to do academically. So you probably have other episodes on this topic and there are lots of resources, but my own observations and what I've read in terms of research suggests that if we can avoid taking away those few opportunities that kids do have to play at school, they're going to be better and they're going to do better.
Speaker 1:I totally agree, and I think I want to just add that when I help educators or really anybody right even this is for parents who are like I'm going to take away you going to your friend's house because you were bad in some way. Right, the thing that I often say is think about what is the goal of your intervention, right? And so, in this case, the intervention is this punishment, meaning you don't get to go to recess, you don't get to go to PE, you don't get to go to your friend's house. The goal of your intervention is to change the behavior in some way. The reality, though, is that when we're taking recess away, we think we are punishing them, and then they're going to change their behavior and be less squirmy, that they're going to like learn that I should do something differently, and it just doesn't happen that way, and so I tend to like have teachers brainstorm, like what are other ways that we could teach this particular child how to behave differently without having to use this punishment intervention? What are the ways that we can teach them appropriate behavior? So let's talk through other things, and so that's one thing that I often talk about is, the point of our intervention is to try to get them to stop talking out.
Speaker 1:Keeping them back from recess is not going to teach them how to stop talking out in class. So it's just like our brains. Maybe the people we learned from the people who disciplined us always took things away and we learned how because they took it away. I don't think that's happening as directly as we think it does. Yeah, I agree with you, beth. So brainstorm other ways. I think that's one thing to think about. Instead of taking resource, brainstorm other ways to teach them the behavior that you want them to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I am prepared to talk to you about two suggestions that may or may not be new to you and to your listeners. So two topics, two ideas similar, related, yet different. One is about regulation, and what I mean by regulation is the student's ability to cope with what's going on in a sensory and an emotional way in their environment. So what does regulation look like? The child has the appropriate energy level for the setting, seems relatively calm, happy or pleasant, feels okay and safe in their circumstances. And what I mean by dysregulated is like the child who is maybe tense or maybe looking fearful, or maybe irritable or angry, so unable to calm their bodies and calm their selves and be doing what they need to be doing. Yeah, okay. So I think that a lot of times we see a child becoming dysregulated in the classroom and in our minds I know this happens to me. I'm just like okay, I know where this is going and I can predict it. The child is going to eventually push or kick or fall on the floor and yell and cry, and my suggestion on this topic is to learn from those patterns that we see and intervene when we see it going there. And so what might this look like. So, thinking about a classroom situation where we know that Marcus often, if not always, has a difficult time when we transition from free play to time to go to our tables. So I see that a lot in preschool classrooms, where things seem to be all right as long as kids are doing whatever they want, right, and then when we need to redirect them to something else, that's when kind of things fall apart. So I know that Marcus frequently has a hard time when that cleanup music starts and in the past I've seen him pulling the buckets of cars and trucks and literally dumping them on the ground when he knows it's time to go. I have to kind of use my observations and try and shift him out of that state which I see now as dysregulation. It's not. I'm choosing to continue to play. I'm not being disrespectful or disobedient. The child is just unable to deal with that transition.
Speaker 2:So one of the things I suggest is I look at him. I see his facial expressions. I see his arms tensing up. Hey Marcus, as soon as the music goes on, hey Marcus, will you come on over here? I need you to help me with something.
Speaker 2:I move him out of that physical environment where he's got all those stressors and triggers the noise, the stress of having to leave the cars. He comes to me and I connect with him and that's one of the most important things in the regulation cycle is Marcus feeling good with me? Hey Marcus, thanks so much for coming over. I have a special job for you. I need you to help me. I wonder if you can pick up this crate the crate that holds the lunch boxes or the snack boxes or whatever it is, and I want you to put snack in front of everyone's chair. So I'm removing him from the environment, I'm connecting with him and giving him something special to do, and I'm also giving him physical work. It may be that Marcus doesn't clean up the toys that he was supposed to, that's exactly where I was gonna go.
Speaker 1:The listener is like, yeah, but then Marcus never has to clean up, so when are we gonna teach him that he needs to clean up?
Speaker 2:Yes, it's frustrating. It's annoying to me as an adult. I do not want to. Sometimes we worry we're training them or we're teaching them that they can get away with misbehavior. Here's the thing when I help Marcus and his body and his spirit learn that change can happen and it can feel okay and I can actually feel good, he's gonna learn and his nervous system is gonna learn More flexibility and more ability to go with the flow and over time, when he can tolerate those changes better, he's going to be much more open to doing those tasks that are less desirable. But in this example and this little vignette, I think that the teaching that I need to do of him is teaching him how to transition in a way where he maintains regulation, when he can stay regulated, maybe a couple of weeks later, maybe a couple of months later. That's when we can focus more on the task of teaching the cleanup skills which are vitally important, for sure.
Speaker 1:But it doesn't have to happen right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it's easy for us to say this when we're not the ones with the 22 bodies in the classroom and the 22 messes, but the relationship that happens between the adult and the child, when the adult kind of holds the child and helps him maintain his own regulation and self-control and feeling good in school, it will pay off 10-fold over time because that child will then want to please us and want to be in positive relationship with us and it's almost like an investment, Like when I spend this time paying attention to these transitions and trying new things that might be effective now. It's an investment because later in the school year things will go much more smoothly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love this and I think I'm thinking about some classrooms that I've been in, even in kind of the K6 space. I also do a lot of work in preschools, like you do, and I've had exactly that scenario right when Marcus isn't cleaning up and we're worried as adults that we're failing him because we're not teaching him to clean up. But we have to be reminded to what you're saying, that we are teaching him a skill, it's just not the cleanup skill. Every child in your classroom has skilled deficiencies. I mean, that's the hardest part of being a teacher, in my opinion, is recognizing and not being overwhelmed by all of the deficiencies you're trying to teach each child individually about. I think the general public doesn't realize that. They think a teacher comes in with a lesson, they teach the lesson and they did their job, and that's not what teachers are doing, certainly not these days. That's not what teachers are doing.
Speaker 1:And so I'm thinking about the child who struggles with transitions in our K6 space and I think the one thing I will add to what you've said don't let the words come out of your mouth when you say if you don't do this now, you won't go to recess.
Speaker 1:Don't say those words, because if you say those words, then you have to follow through on those words and instead let's focus on connecting language, let's focus on some first then strategies First we're going to do this, then we're going to read together.
Speaker 1:Focus on first then that include breathing, regulating your body, connecting words, instead of saying, if you don't do this, I'm going to take recess away Because you need them to do recess. If for nothing else, what you described the running, the movement, the social skills, the joy, the happiness that comes from recess you know on some level that they have to have that, but frankly, for you as a grown-up, you need them to all be away from you for a hot second. Let's just call that what it is Absolutely. You know we go into this because we love children, but sometimes we just need a space to breathe, and so taking recess away is also hard on us as the grown-ups, on you all, listeners who are teachers. So try not to say those things out loud. I think that's the one thing I'll add to what you're describing also.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, beth, when you were talking about the language and then getting ahead of it. That is actually a perfect segue into my second suggestion for today. So the next idea I have is really more of a behavioral kind of lens, which I think is something that feels more natural and intuitive in the school setting. It's something that we see a lot more of, and while I wouldn't consider myself a behaviorist, I think a lot of times behavioral principles really do work, yeah, and this is something that I think, even if we're not classroom teachers, just being parents, we can relate to. So I want to start with the classic example of the child in the grocery cart on the way out of the grocery store.
Speaker 2:I feel like we've all either seen it in real life or experienced it, or we've seen it on TV, that classic like carried parent who was like I just want to get out of here, I just want to survive. And of course, you know the grocery store has to put all the candy right at the level of the child's eyes, right. So what happens in real life and in this classic example? The child is like grabbing, taking, wanting, crying, screaming, and the parents are like no, you shouldn't, you shouldn't, and then it's just like, okay, take it. And why? Because because they're overwhelmed, they need to survive, they need to get out of here with less people looking at them and judging them, and so that cycle happens, right. So then the child, it becomes an association, the child associates I'm in the checkout aisle, I make some noise, I complain, I grab and scream, I get a candy bar.
Speaker 2:Hey, you give me a candy bar, I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn that pattern too, right, yeah, so over time I think we can change those patterns. And so what's? What's the school example? I can actually give you a real life school example where this little child who you know to me, the person who spent 45 minutes a week with him, he was just the most adorable, delightful little guy, but he was really high energy, very high need, and he often found himself in trouble during lunchtime. In one of the schools that I worked in actually many of them the gym does double duty also as the cafeteria, so they roll in these tables, the kids come running down for lunch, they run down into the gym and this little guy had a really hard time with the bigness of the space, the noise of the space, the fact that he was just there playing basketball an hour ago right, run and run and running around.
Speaker 2:Inevitably he would wind up getting in trouble with the monitor in the build, it in the in the room. He'd get yelled at, corrected whatever, and then the very loving, sweet cafeteria lady would come over to him because he'd be crying on the floor at this point and she'd say oh, come here, honey, let me take care of you, sit with me, have a chocolate milk. So I observed this literally day after day after day, and and in talking with the adults on how do we, how do we help this child learn more functional behavior I know I said this pattern out loud to them. They said Do you think we should stop giving him the chocolate milk? I said no, no, he needs the chocolate milk. He also needs that special treatment, that sitting by that sweet cafeteria lady.
Speaker 2:Let's just change up the sequence. And so what? What we proposed and what they did was he's ready to leave the classroom. The classroom teacher says remember to go to Miss Jones as soon as you get to the cafeteria. He has to come over to Miss Jones. Miss Jones says come here, baby, come sit with me, you want a chocolate milk. So he sits with her, he gets that special time he gets to sit on that little bench right next to the cash register and he gets his chocolate milk. And so then she says to him okay, next tomorrow you come right back to me. And so we just changed that pattern a little bit. He's getting that special time and attention, he's getting that chocolate milk, but he's getting it after doing really good behavior and another child. Another situation which I want to elaborate on is as lengthy a way, but I don't know if you remember.
Speaker 2:Like when I was in grammar school we said get sent to the principal when we were in trouble and sent to the principal was meant to be like oh, you're in trouble, don't do that anymore. What happens? Whether the child's in trouble, corrected. You know I'm sure nobody's yelling these days, but getting yelled at like I was back in the day, it's one on one attention yeah, it's one on one attention. That becomes an association.
Speaker 2:I do a misbehavior and somebody spends a lot of time with me and so I think it should go to the principal's office.
Speaker 2:But they should go there when they have a good day, they should go there when they get through the whole morning getting their work done and sent there as a treat. So when we flip it and we say you'll get to go to the principal's office because you got all your work done and you stayed in your seat for a whole half an hour, then it becomes oh, I'm going to work toward this right. And you know, I think one of the themes of all of my ideas that I'm sharing with you today, beth, or that, like the adult's connection with the child, is a really important part that we don't always pay attention to. Especially if we've got to take care of 22 kids, we don't feel like we have any more relationship to give, but when we use that relationship strategically to support and connect with the child, when we think about it, when we're smart about how we give of ourselves and how we connect with them in positive ways, we can use that to help them learn these more functional behaviors.
Speaker 1:I love everything you said. The examples are perfect, and I think one thing I will add to is yeah, this idea of connecting with other adults, I think most folks would know, or at least they would like logically say, yeah, you know my kiddo who's really struggling. They just want more connection with me, they want more attention from me. It's like we kind of know that on some level. But I think we're worried that that should only come if the child is doing well all day. And so I have kind of talked with folks and I know that this is probably part of your conversation when you do these kind of meetings with schools too that every day he should meet with Miss Jones, no matter what his morning looks like, because we know he needs that time in the cafeteria with the chocolate milk, right? It's what we would consider non-continuent reinforcement, right? So non-continuent reinforcement says no matter what is happening, you get a good thing midday, and we do that because we know he needs more of that, and in fact he needs it more when he's having a hard time opposed to the day where he is, you know, doing just fine you know he needs it even more.
Speaker 1:But I think the trap that we fall into is we want to create contingent plans right, which there is a time and a place for a contingent plan right, so you don't achieve X until you have done Y and Z and A and B. Right, there is a place for that. But for our kiddos who are dysregulated, this idea of being overwhelmed from a sensory or emotional perspective, it's going to be really hard for them to achieve those contingent reinforcement plans. And so that's why we use non-contingent reinforcement. Like, no matter what happens, he always goes to Ms Jones, he gets this reward, it helps him regulate, it gives him what he needs for the rest of the afternoon. And maybe there's other kids who you can create those contingent plans for. But that idea of taking it away like the recess, or taking away Mrs Jones and the chocolate milk, like if he's having a hard morning, that's the opposite of what we want to do to help create these associations in their body to do good and be good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with you, beth. I really appreciate your reminding us that, while it may seem like we're giving more or more than we should have to give, this is the individual need of that individual child and eventually and sometimes it does feel excessive, sometimes it does feel like it's too much, but when we remind ourselves that this is what this is, like you said before, the skill that they need now, that skilled deficit that we can help them with, it's going to benefit them and us so much going forward.
Speaker 1:That's great. We could talk about this for a long time, and if there's an educator out there who is like, okay, I want to hear more, I would love for you to talk about this. I would love for you to share more ideas about this topic in particular, I invite you to reach out. I would love to hear from you I know I get the sense that Colleen would come back and chat with me also about this if there's a particular thing you want to know more about, because it is really hard. The work you do is really hard and I know recess is one of those things that can feel tricky and even some of the ways like how do I intervene for this? What should I do?
Speaker 1:I think I talk to a lot of educators I'm sure you do too, colleen of like I don't want to do the wrong thing. I want to be fair to the other children. I don't want every child to want to have chocolate milk with Mrs Jones. So how do I balance meeting the need of this individual child but then also being fair to the other kids? I think there's so much to say and talk about that we just are scratching the surface, but I would welcome any additional email comments concerns from folks out there, because it is big and hard, yeah. So for now, I think we are going to wrap this episode up. Colleen, let folks know how they can reach you.
Speaker 2:Follow the work you're doing all those things, absolutely Thanks. So you can find me on Instagram as Colleen the play therapist and on Facebook as play therapy Colleen, and I look forward to connecting with you again, beth.
Speaker 1:All right y'all. Thanks for listening and until the next time, make words matter for good, Stay safe and stay well Ciao.