Have you ever found yourself caught in the relentless pursuit of perfection, or bending over backwards to please others at the cost of your own happiness? If yes, this conversation with renowned therapist Laura Sgro, a specialist in anxiety, trauma, and self-worth, will resonate deeply with you. We take an unflinching look at the roots of perfectionism, from childhood expectations to ingrained trauma, underscoring the importance of setting achievable goals and celebrating small victories.
We also delve into the psychology of everyday tasks, examining how these seemingly mundane activities often shape our self-worth. Through a relatable narrative of a mother torn between household chores and self-care, we share insights on reframing negative self-talk and redefining 'good enough'. Moreover, we address the complexities of perfectionism and people-pleasing, recognizing how these traits are often underpinned by fear, resulting in a loss of our authentic selves.
The final part of our discussion highlights the necessity of establishing boundaries and making intentional choices in order to live an authentic and fulfilling life. We explore how to overcome perfectionism and people-pleasing by placing emphasis on our own needs and identity. So, join us on this transformative journey of self-discovery and personal growth, and learn how to break free from the chains of perfectionism and embrace the power of self-compassion.
www.bethtrammell.com
Have you ever found yourself caught in the relentless pursuit of perfection, or bending over backwards to please others at the cost of your own happiness? If yes, this conversation with renowned therapist Laura Sgro, a specialist in anxiety, trauma, and self-worth, will resonate deeply with you. We take an unflinching look at the roots of perfectionism, from childhood expectations to ingrained trauma, underscoring the importance of setting achievable goals and celebrating small victories.
We also delve into the psychology of everyday tasks, examining how these seemingly mundane activities often shape our self-worth. Through a relatable narrative of a mother torn between household chores and self-care, we share insights on reframing negative self-talk and redefining 'good enough'. Moreover, we address the complexities of perfectionism and people-pleasing, recognizing how these traits are often underpinned by fear, resulting in a loss of our authentic selves.
The final part of our discussion highlights the necessity of establishing boundaries and making intentional choices in order to live an authentic and fulfilling life. We explore how to overcome perfectionism and people-pleasing by placing emphasis on our own needs and identity. So, join us on this transformative journey of self-discovery and personal growth, and learn how to break free from the chains of perfectionism and embrace the power of self-compassion.
www.bethtrammell.com
Hey everyone, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramell. I'm a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the Masters in Mental Health Counseling program, and my focus is to make large matter for good. So I love to talk with folks about behavior and communication strategies to increase connection with people around us, and I am really excited to share with you my guest and my now new friend, who actually we kind of connected a long time ago and are now just kind of getting around to having this space, and now we together are going to do this next episode as two recovering perfectionists. So I am so happy to have you here, laura. Laura Skrow is here to share about her expertise and her work in all things anxiety, perfectionism, self-worth, people pleasing and so we are going to talk about all those things. So thanks for joining the podcast today. Listener and Laura, please introduce yourself to all of our listeners and, as always, tell us one fun thing about you.
Speaker 2:Well, hello Beth and hello everyone who's listening. My name is Laura. I'm a licensed therapist specializing in anxiety and trauma, which usually translates to perfectionism, self-worth, people pleasing and you know, family of origin, dynamics and all that good stuff. I live in Los Angeles, california, where I have a private practice all through telehealth, so I see folks all across the state and, in addition to that, I love to do public speaking, I love to do podcasts like this, so I'm really really excited to be here and, as Beth mentioned, I am also a recovering perfectionist and people pleasing myself, so I try to bring that into my work as well, as someone who has been there and gets it.
Speaker 2:Let's see one fun fact about me. I always struggle with this because I feel like there's so, so many fun things about all of us. I would say that I love to travel, and something that I've started doing recently on some of my travels, especially my solo travels, is I have been in the habit of getting a new tattoo everywhere I go, which has been a really fun and exciting souvenir that doesn't take up any luggage space. So that's been. That's been cool. I just recently went to Colorado with some friends and we all got tattoos and that was really special.
Speaker 1:That is so fun. What a fun souvenir.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I used to collect pins for my denim jacket, but now that's running out of space, so I guess we're just going to use my skin now.
Speaker 1:You know, until you run out of space there, Right, exactly, it's incredible. Oh, that's so fun. Okay, so where have you traveled recently?
Speaker 2:Well, I just got back from Colorado on a friend's trip this past weekend and then earlier this year I took three weeks off and went road tripping through England, scotland and Wales, and last year I did a big six week solo travel through Italy, croatia, bosnia and Slovenia and that was really awesome.
Speaker 1:Oh, that sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love travel, love it so much.
Speaker 1:That's so amazing, that's great. Okay, so let's start with I'm curious, right, because I think this word perfectionist right, and I'll share just from my own personal experience with this word perfectionism and perfectionist. For the longest time I was like I'm not a perfectionist, like I don't, I don't want to be perfect, I know I'm not perfect. But then when I started to really kind of study perfectionism and what it is, I found that I was mostly a perfectionist in denial Because I just I was in this like space of being, like, rationally, I know I'm never going to be perfect and so I certainly couldn't be a perfectionist because I know, logically, I'm never going to achieve that. So why, why would I call myself a perfectionist? So I don't know if there's people listening or I'm curious how your kind of self-awareness around even your own perfectionism, or maybe people that you work with around this Am I crazy for kind of coming to this journey in this way?
Speaker 2:Well, of course you're not crazy, right, but no, I think this is a really common thing, because I think perfectionism and being a high achiever go really hand in hand, and so that's, I think, where it starts for a lot of folks is maybe as a kid you did really well in school, or you were expected to do really well in school, or else right, and that's certainly going to give you a mindset around I have to be the best or I have to be perfect, and sometimes that's what it looks like. It's not even about perfect, where we know cognitively that that's impossible, but it's about being the quote unquote best right or getting first place or some of those expectations that get put on us. So I think your journey makes a lot of sense. It's very similar to my own, where I was that high achiever in school. I loved school, I loved getting good grades, and then that sort of turned into.
Speaker 2:The closer to adulthood we get more anxiety around continuing that sort of trajectory and that expectation in college and now owning my own private practice, that creeps in still as well, and so I find that typically, perfectionism kind of originates in a few different ways either this sort of expectation from childhood or perhaps even trauma, right, a way to escape from what's happening by throwing yourself into different things that you can be really good at, or a way to gain approval from folks who maybe didn't give you approval, such as parent figures. Or it's a self-esteem thing a lot of the time where it's like if I can do this, then I can feel good about myself, or if I don't do this, then I have nothing to feel good about myself. For that black and white thinking of either perfect or worthless.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, just one end of the continuum or the other.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and what we want is that middle path, of course.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, okay, as you help people really understand what perfectionism is. How do you describe it for people who maybe are in denial, like I was, or just for folks who are maybe just curious, like what's maybe the best way to maybe be? Like, oh oops, maybe that is me, you know how do you describe it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I usually ask folks if you were to wake up tomorrow and you were to be perfect, or if you were to be good enough because sometimes it looks like a question of good enough or not good enough what would that look like?
Speaker 2:And this is usually where people go blank, because, of course, there's no concrete answer, there's no ceiling that we suddenly reach and we've hit it, we're done. You know, striving for being the best, like we're there, and that's usually the point where a lot of people realize oh, I am holding myself to the standard. That's A not clearly defined Right. I don't actually know what I'm striving for, I just know that I don't feel like I'm there yet, and that makes it challenging, because you're always going to feel like you're not good enough or you're not doing well enough. And then usually that's the point, too, where a lot of people myself included are like, okay, wait, if I don't actually know what standard I'm holding myself to. What is more realistic and that's typically the word I would use too is realistic, right or helpful. These are helpful expectations versus unhelpful expectations. These are helpful beliefs about yourself versus unhelpful beliefs about yourself.
Speaker 1:It's so good, right? So am I holding myself to a standard that isn't clearly defined? I think you're absolutely right that I can think of conversations with clients that I've also had where I kind of challenge them in saying, okay, so now that you've said that out loud, you know, now that you've said that out loud, does it seem like it's making sense? Yes, you know like. Does it seem like that's even reasonable?
Speaker 2:Or my favorite question to ask people would you say that to your most cherished loved one if they were coming to you with this right, if we were to put on a different pair of shoes today? Is that what you would say to them? And usually the answer is no, of course not right, because we don't tell our loved ones that they're not good enough and that they're, you know, terrible or worthless, but we often say that to ourselves. So sometimes having that external perspective can really help people realize the self-talk that they're using towards themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know I love that question too. You know what? Would you say that to your best friend, or would you say that to the person?
Speaker 2:you're here, your child.
Speaker 1:Exactly, yeah, and maybe becoming aware of that is kind of a great first step. And so let's say, maybe I am a person who is oh yeah, you're right, I probably should be reading a lot of books on perfectionism, because that's kind of me. What do you say is kind of your approach to this recovering perfectionism? Right, because when you're saying recovering perfectionism, what you're suggesting is that I'm never going to really like not kind of be tempted by perfectionism. Right, that's what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Or that we could slip up, as is life right. There's again. There's never that ending point where I've done it, I've mastered perfectionism right, and as a professional like I, struggle with this still a lot of the time too, and so it's part of the human experience. I think most things that tend to make us anxious or fearful are typically parts of the human experience, so a little bit of existential acceptance there of just knowing that this is gonna come up, and so I approach it as how do I equip myself for those moments where it's hard versus how do I avoid ever doing this again? And so one of the places where I would start is again kind of replacing that self-talk with something a little more positive. If I'm noticing I'm using absolute language like all or nothing, I'm perfect or I'm worthless, or I'm shooting on myself with those should statements, right. Usually I'll try to find a substitute language like instead of but could it be? And you know I'm trying my best and I'm not where I wanna be, and that's automatically got so much more compassion in it than like I'm trying my best but I'm not getting anywhere, right, there's so much judgment there, so I always frame it as let's be curious and not judge ourself and have our language mirror that process.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I would start telling folks to do from the beginning would be to like figure out what your expectations are and ask yourself if they're realistic and if they're not, how do we create something that's more realistic? And again, I think I use realistic and helpful interchangeably here, because positive or negative, I feel like, doesn't always get to the nitty gritty of what's happening. But is this realistic and is it helpful for me? Because if I'm telling myself that I'm a piece of crap because I'm not doing ABC, that's objectively unhelpful. I'm not going to feel more motivated to do better or to try harder. I'm going to feel defeated and probably give up, which we know then leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy a lot of the time where we don't perform as well.
Speaker 2:So those would be my two starting places. I think another thing I would do here too is really like try to acknowledge what the small wins are, those stepping stones. If you're trying to climb to the top of a building, you're not going to just be able to teleport up there. You've got to take a ladder, you've got to take steps or stairs or whatever this analogy is. So you have to have those small moments, those small wins, and we have this negativity filter a lot of the time where we just kind of overlook that stuff and so really acknowledging what those things are, because that's going to give you confidence. So those would be some starting places. I feel like I've been talking and talking so I'll pause here.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's great. I think it's great to acknowledging those small wins. I think it's something for me that I struggle with, unless I'm really intentional. I think that's what I'm hearing in all the things you're saying is that each of these pieces may not come naturally. It may not be the first thought. We perfectionists, we people pleasers, we anxious folks it may not be our first thought.
Speaker 2:It rarely is our first thought.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's rarely our first thought and that doesn't make us a problem. It just means you started that by saying I have to realize how do I equip myself? How do I sort of predict that I'm going to need a strategy today, Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and really what we're talking about with that too, is a little bit of distress tolerance. If there's going to be difficult moments where I'm feeling tempted to be a perfectionist, or I'm really getting down to myself for not doing well, or whatever the case may be, I need to know how to tolerate that uncomfortable moment. And so, again, it's not about avoiding it, it's about if and when this happens. What can I do with that, without feeding into the perfectionism trap, without giving it more ammo, which is so easy to do, because we're talking about, for a lot of us who are adults now, decades of messaging, whether that comes from again that family of origin, as a child, or a lot of times that's where it starts, or at school or whatnot, and so we're talking about decades upon decades of this type of thinking, and your brain is literally working to change that.
Speaker 2:That doesn't happen overnight. So, really being patient with yourself too, being intentional about what it is you're trying to do, about what your goal is I'm glad that you brought up that word intentionality, because that is what we're doing, we're being mindful and we're checking in with ourselves, either to figure out how to navigate a hard moment or to really be honest with ourselves. Is this true? Our brain is meant to protect us, not be our friend. So a lot of times it's well-meaning but doesn't quite take us where we need to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. It's not necessarily to be our friend, which means I also may interpret that as sometimes our brain just says things to us that are helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, because it doesn't want us to confront this thing that we're scared of. That goes back to way back our very earliest primal biological instinct of self-preservation. So our brain doesn't know that we're not in the woods with a bear figuring out if we need to fight or flee. It thinks that even in the social situation where I'm wanting to people please, or I'm judging myself for something I'm doing, it treats that as a red light situation, an emergency.
Speaker 1:Yeah, OK, so what if we walk through maybe an example or two of perfectionism in everyday life and I have an example of somebody that I have worked with and then if you have an example that comes up in your practice, and so I'll share my example first and that might give you a chance to think about your example?
Speaker 1:So I was working with this mom and she has three kids and a full-time job and she came to this workshop that I was doing and she was really frustrated with herself because she was tired and then she was calling herself lazy and her example was that she doesn't do the dishes every night before she goes to bed, and so she was like I have to do the dishes every night, and then I'm exhausted and I don't want to, and then I'm arguing with my kids and I don't like that, and I mean, it was just sort of this, like it spirals. Yes, exactly, and so let's just take maybe this example and let's walk through some of the things you're kind of talking about that maybe you would do with this mom in terms of helping her realize what are those expectations, because that's kind of what we keep coming back to, right, and are they realistic and are they helpful?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm just going to do a little side note here for anyone listening who might be neurodivergent, because the second I hear the word lazy, I think of ADHD, because that's the narrative that so many ADHD folks have been told their whole life and that adds a whole other layer to the perfectionism cycle. I just wanted to mention that. So, going back to this example, whether we're looking at it from sort of a neurodivergence lens or not, I would say the first thing is, yeah, to ask her. Ok, so there's this attachment to the dishes, right. What does the dishes mean to you? What's the deal with that, right? And is that the right chore to sort of like double down on? If it's causing you so much distress, what's the?
Speaker 2:My initial thought is like was there some incident years ago where someone got on her for not doing the dishes? Right, I tend to think of that as maybe a trauma response, but nonetheless, what's the attachment there, what's the expectation there and what is the message she believes it says about her if she doesn't do the dishes one night? And that's where it all starts, because we carry the story with us and we're always looking for evidence to prove the story true, even if we don't want it to be true. So my impression would be that she might have this story around. Well, I'm a terrible mom. If I don't do the dishes, or if I don't do this, then I'm not doing good enough. And when you think of everything going on in her life, she's got all these different roles right, so she's working, she's a mother, she may or may not be a partner to somebody, she's a friend, she's a daughter, a sibling or whatnot, and so when we think about our life in terms of roles, we're never, ever, ever going to be perfect at all of them.
Speaker 2:We're just not. Whenever there's so many things happening at once, we have to prioritize, and so I would imagine, without knowing this person, that she's probably prioritizing taking care of her kids and making money for the household right and providing for her children, which, you know, I think most folks would say is probably the best place to focus. So does that change the story? Does that change the lens from what she's looking at herself from? If she puts that context there, right, what would she say to a friend who was coming to her with this problem? Like, yeah, you're being a terrible mom because you didn't do the dishes? I highly doubt that, right. So some of those things would come into play here, I think for sure. And then asking her like if you woke up tomorrow, you felt like you were good enough, or that you were a good mom, or whatever the negative story is, how would you know? And if she says, oh well, the dishes would be done, I would ask what does that have to do with you being a good mom?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And see what she says.
Speaker 1:I love this and as I'm picturing this mom feeling empowered by this, I think then also the other parts of the steps you talked about were equipping yourself for when those obstacles are coming, so there's also messages to share, I would imagine. So like OK, so tonight, when you're sitting on the couch and the dishes are there, what are the alternative narratives that you can think of now that will help you when you know? That narrative of I've got to get up, I'm not a good enough mom if I don't do the dishes now, would that be part of your conversation with her? Also Is like, let's try to go down that path of predicting what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Totally. Yeah, there's times where I invite my clients to go down the catastrophizing rabbit hole. It's not always functional, but sometimes it can be where it's like what is the worst part about this? And that's usually where it comes back to that story of well, if I don't do this, then I'm a screw up, or then I'll be just like my mom who didn't take care of me, or something, whatever that belief is.
Speaker 2:But another question I think that could be really helpful here with this client and with a lot of the clients I work with, is what is good enough? How do we reframe our idea and that branches off into so many other ideas too If doing the dishes right before bed, when she's trying to relax after she puts her kids down, is just not working, if it's just not working, could she do a first thing when she wakes up, when she has renewed energy? Are there alternatives there that she can work with herself, rather than getting into a power struggle with herself over and over and over again, because that just feels the fire. So what is her good enough? What are those alternatives? And how can I deal with this moment where I don't feel good about myself? And what's that story there? How can I reframe that? Maybe it's something like you know what. I'm really trying to do my best here and I have to let go of the dishes tonight. You see how I said and yeah.
Speaker 2:Right that and can create such power. The language we use in general can be so powerful. So I always ask folks, what is that compassionate way to reframe the same thing you're saying to yourself, just without all the judgment, because it's not helpful?
Speaker 1:I mean what I love about this example, and I'm sure the example you share is going to be equally as powerful. What I love about this example is I want people to hear that this may seem just like the simplest or silliest example of like just don't do the dishes.
Speaker 2:I mean, I can imagine.
Speaker 1:There's a listener or two out there that's like this just don't do the dishes. But it is these tiny things that many folks I mean it's. It's not about the dishes, it's the root, exactly. So I love that we're using a very mundane example and showing people that if you're a person who this tiny thing in your life that you're like gosh, like, why is this feel so big? It's because it's not actually about the dishes. Right, the dishes is just what's kind of bringing it out of you. But what I love about what you're saying is that it's so much deeper than that and the dishes are just what's telling us.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Oh, I love the way you frame that. Yeah, the dishes is like the communication that we're getting from our system, but it's really not about that. It's about what that represents in the story we view about ourselves. And yeah, so the example that I was going to share and I actually have several clients who fit this sort of similar situation is I get a lot of first generation American immigrant clients and so their parents may be immigrated from a different country, which usually means a different culture, and so there's different expectations there and there's this cultural clash.
Speaker 2:For my clients that the sort of millennial age folks who come in, it's like I'm part of that culture and certainly part of the family with their expectations and values and norms, but I'm also assimilated in a different way here, and what this usually translates to in the people that I work with is I'm a perfectionist because I had to be.
Speaker 2:If I wasn't perfect or if I didn't get good grades, or if I didn't do well in school, or if I didn't get a job right at a high school out of college, then that would say something about me per my family culture, per my norms, per the expectation, and so this usually kind of looks similar to them not getting some of their emotional needs met from their family, but getting all of their physiological sort of physical safety shelter needs met and not knowing how to bridge that Like OK. So I had a good upbringing with parents who cared, and emotionally I don't feel like there was space for me to struggle or to feel. So what do we do with that? And this is where people pleasing comes in perfectionism for sure. And it's that belief that if I don't do this thing or if I don't do super well or if I'm not the best or perfect, then I'm a failure, and that I mean. I guess my first question that I would ask folks with that is what's the worst part about believing that you've failed?
Speaker 2:What does failure mean to?
Speaker 1:you.
Speaker 2:What does failure mean in the context of your family, upbringing and culture, and really deconstructing that, because that alone can do so much for someone to really just get curious about what failure means. And then from there we would go into well, what was the worst part about displeasing your folks or disappointing them? And then we kind of start doing some work around values too, like what are your individual values versus? Maybe not even versus, but you know, put next to the family values, the cultural values, and how do you want to have that relationship? Look, and really getting I guess this comes back to like identity a little bit, or once someone you know, and that ties in to self-worth, of course. Once someone has a clearer idea of their identity, their values, what makes them them, what makes them happy, what gives them a life worth living, they're able to sort of put that next to some of those older belief systems and really decide how that's going to fit in their own lives.
Speaker 2:And the last thing I wanted to say on this, before I sort of lose the thought, is this comes into play a lot with comparison to perfectionism for sure, where it's like I see maybe my siblings or my cousins as part of this cultural family system doing a certain thing or, you know, meeting my parents' expectations, that I feel othered, I feel different, I feel like the black sheep and we don't know. You know all of the things that led into those choices being made by them and your choices being made by you. But the comparison trap is a huge, huge piece of perfectionism. That is another sort of like dead end cycle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, just as soon as you said identity, I was thinking the same thing. You know, it's like family of origin stuff, even if you have the you know quote best childhood, like, even with the best family, the best siblings, the best parents, the best, fill in the blank, right, we all have family of origin stuff that creeps in.
Speaker 2:Human error is unavoidable, so our parents can do the best that they can do and still miss the mark in some things. In fact, they will.
Speaker 2:I consider myself to have had a very happy upbringing and I'm very close to my parents, and yet there's ways in which, you know, I feel like, okay, that would have been a lot better if that didn't happen or if you didn't do that that way, you know, and that's just human error, that's just the human experience. And so a little bit of that acceptance coming back in of, like you know, not acceptance in that we go against our boundaries, but acceptance and understanding that humans are the way that we are and we have to work with that, not against that.
Speaker 1:And everything we experience shapes us 100%.
Speaker 2:It's all part of the story.
Speaker 1:You know it's all part of the story, and so you know what our parents did or didn't do shaped us for good then and maybe not good now, or vice versa. You know yes.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, thank you for bringing that up, because perfectionism so often is a coping skill that turns into a maladaptive coping skill, right. So maybe that was the thing that saved you from being scolded as a child, or it's the thing that protected you when you were able to escape off to school if there was stuff going on at home. And now, as an adult, it's no longer adaptive, because maybe you're struggling at work or you're struggling to be authentic in relationships and you're noticing it's no longer fitting. But that's totally something that happens, where we learn a certain way of doing things that works for a while and then it no longer does and we have to adapt. And as we grow as people, naturally the things that we latch onto or prioritize will also grow and evolve. And I think that's something that's so easy to forget in this kind of context, because it's it doesn't feel like something we're consciously choosing to do. It's ingrained.
Speaker 1:And there's no room for gray right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's either one or the other. With perfectionists, it's either one or the other. Right it's like you're either all there or you're not at all.
Speaker 2:If any of my clients are listening to this, they are going to laugh, because my homework for them almost every week, as we're going through the nitty-gritty of this stuff, is look for that middle path and really identify it right. If you're noticing that it's this or this, that we can only hold space for this thing or this thing, or I can only be this or this, that's usually not the case. I think humans like to fit things in a box because it helps us prepare for what's next, it helps us understand things and have a sense of control, and we just don't have control over everything. So we've got to look for that middle path. We've got to find that and, instead of the butt, and hold space for both these things.
Speaker 1:I mean, I love that you call it the middle path too.
Speaker 2:I stole that from my therapist.
Speaker 1:I love it, because what you're not saying is find another path. What you're saying is look, friend, you're on one extreme or the other and you have to find the middle path.
Speaker 2:I always say balance when we think of again back to your example of these different roles. Maybe she can't balance being the perfect housekeeper, in addition to being the best parent she can be, and a worker and all these other things, and also trying to have a social life and maybe her own hobbies for self-care and whatnot. Sometimes maybe that pendulum will shift and other things will get more priority. But we all make choices about what we need to prioritize and our goal is to find balance between it, not to hyper fixate in one direction or the other.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've been talking about perfectionism mostly to this point and you've also kind of overlapped a little bit with people pleasing. I really want to go kind of down that path a little bit, though I mean, I think to what you said earlier those folks who are high, achieving mildly or moderately anxious perfectionistic, probably also have some people pleasing in them, though not always. How do you see the intersection between perfectionism and people pleasing? I mean, I'm guessing they overlap.
Speaker 2:Well, they both come from fear, right. So with perfectionism, you're fearful of perhaps being viewed as a failure or feeling like a failure, or whatever that consequence feels like it is. With people pleasing, you're fearful of what other folks are going to think about you, or maybe you're fearful that you won't be accepted or that you'll be abandoned if you don't. People please, right. And so I think that's kind of your tell about whether you're making an intentional choice about something like if a friend asks me to move next weekend and I'm free and they're going to buy me pizza, I'm like, okay, fine, like I can do that. That's an intentional choice I'm making to give up my time for a friend. But if they ask me to do that and I'm like, oh gosh, what are they going to think if I don't go? Are they still going to want to be friends with me? Oh, I have something at two, but I can move it. That's not intentional, that's fear, that's obligation, that's people pleasing. So that's kind of how I see those two things being similar.
Speaker 1:Okay, so here we go. I mean, I already know there are going to be listeners who are like I am right, Okay, maybe I should stop tuning in here because they're going to talk about me, the people, pleaser. So let's talk about people pleasing. And how do you most often see it kind of show up for folks that then you kind of have to say as their therapist like Well sounds like, yeah, so I'll notice.
Speaker 2:when there's maybe no boundaries right or very weak boundaries, or boundaries that often get stepped on, that's a huge telltale sign. And I see a lot like well, if I don't do this, I don't want them to be mad at me, that's a big thing. Or social anxiety comes up a lot where it's like, well, what if you know, if I say this thing, like, there's so much cognitive stuff that happens in the brain all in a span of seconds. For a lot of people who are faced with the decision of people please or not, and and again, oftentimes it's ingrained so they just do it because it's easier. But what you're doing is you're, you're feeding into a relationship that's becoming more and more one sided. So the thought process is if I people please, they're going to like me more, but they like this version of you.
Speaker 2:That's people pleasing, right, and that's, over time, going to lead to resentment. Over time, you're not going to feel like you can be authentic and you're still not learning how to advocate for your own needs, which is an important part of any kind of relationship. And so, yeah, it's one of those things where, like I, can usually pick it out. You know immediately, because someone is concerned about well, what if this happens? Or what will this person think, while not having that same regard for themselves. Because we want it to be reciprocated. We should. You know, it's not again not black and white, it's not one sided. Just as we don't want to people, please, we also don't want to like be tyrannical over our loved ones either. But balance, middle path, compromise, right, those words keep coming back.
Speaker 1:I love what you said. You said, when we're faced with a decision to people please or not it's a decision. We have a decision to make. Either we're people pleasing or we're making a decision that is intentionally what's best for us, not rooted in fear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the thing is, every once in a while again, this is that really like flexible thinking. That is a big part of my work is is you know you might make a choice sometimes to help your friend move, even if it's an inconvenience to you. But that should be the outlier and that should have some sort of reciprocation where you know that person would do something similar for you. If that's the norm or that reciprocation is not there, that's how you know it's people pleasing, right, and this is really tricky because a lot of people have great intentions and a lot of people have a lot of empathy and caring and they feel guilty.
Speaker 2:I mean, we could talk for another hour about how guilt plays in here, but at the end of the day, setting boundaries is not only an act of self-love but it's an act of love for your relationships because it helps you be more present in them and be more satisfied by them, and so they're going to feel better. You're going to show up better in them when there's boundaries and you know that you're having relationship with the right people if they can respect your boundaries. That's what you want. But again, it's a foreign to a lot of people who maybe didn't grow up even hearing the word boundary ever in their life, or having totally dysfunctional family roles, or maybe coming out of a toxic or abusive relationship where you know there's all that negative messaging that comes out, or the belief, again, low self-worth that they're not worth having boundaries or that they should be here to serve others. That's something that comes up a lot with clients that I see.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can picture, you know, certain scenarios where people pleasing may be more tempting, for example, in a new relationship, right? Or you want them to like you Totally. It's kind of ironic that that might be the time where we're most tempted when in fact, it's really the time where we should be creating the standard of the boundary the most, right? Yeah, totally, because that makes sense when I'm saying it out loud.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, because this person doesn't have any other context of use. So you have this like blank slate to sort of create the boundary, create the expectation of what the interaction is going to look like. That's really what boundaries are. It's I'm teaching you how I would like to be treated, access, approached, talked to, etc. And so when you do that into an already existing relationship, of course you can do that, but there's likely more of an adjustment period versus this blank slate of meeting a new person. And yet it's harder because we want people to like us, right? Oh, they don't know anything about me. I can be this thing that's going to make them like me. And the part that we don't maybe consciously think of is how that's then building into a relationship where we don't get to be ourselves, which is not very fulfilling of a relationship at all.
Speaker 1:No, but it I know, and you know because the clients that you see, I know experience this right when it's like okay, laura, I know I'm supposed to set a boundary, I know I'm not supposed to choose people pleasing, but the last time I did this with my significant other they yelled at me or they treated me badly or they got mad at me. I don't want them to be mad at me, so maybe it's just easier if I'm just a people pleaser.
Speaker 2:You see how that cycle will just build on itself and build on itself indefinitely until we decide to break it. That's why so often in dysfunctional families, when one person in adulthood becomes the cycle breaker, they're often alienated or the black sheep or they feel guilty and there's all this guilt put onto them because they're cycle breaking and disrupting the norm. That same thing can happen in a toxic relationship dynamic where ultimately the goal in any relationship whether it's romantic or family or friendship or anything is you want to come from a place of love and understanding towards that other person. In any communication that you have, you can still be frustrated, but if you're trying to win an argument, you've already lost. If that person's not treating you with that love or understanding, they're probably not going to respect your boundary. If that person doesn't respect your boundary, that's information for you about the status of the relationship. Really, we were talking about perfectionism as a maladaptive coping skill. People pleasing is the exact same thing, perhaps more so, because if you grew up in a family where someone was really dynamic or angry or there was danger or toxic dynamics, you probably people pleased because it was easier. That's right.
Speaker 2:Now, as an adult, you have to ask yourself. Is this part of what makes my life worth living? Is this how I want my relationships to feel? Is this how I want to feel when I'm in them? Usually, those answers are no. The first thing I would say to someone presenting like this would be start small, say no over a text message. If you're not ready to face someone face to face, say no to something small and complete the sentence there, rather than giving a justification. But start with something small and notice how that feels Then again, because it'll be uncomfortable. What's your strategy that you've equipped yourself with to tolerate this uncomfortable moment? It all comes back to I just need to get through this moment and then I will be okay. Instead of thinking I'm a terrible person for saying no, like I'm having the thought right now that I'm a terrible person, I just need to get through this moment and the thought will pass.
Speaker 1:I just need to tolerate this level of distress. This is what you said earlier, right, dispressed tolerance, right. I just need to be able to hold space, tolerate this feeling. I just think sometimes we just don't even allow ourselves to just sit in a feeling, myself included. I'm like why am I anxious? What am I anxious about? I got a. What?
Speaker 2:resolution. We like completion, we like resolution. We're talking about things that sometimes don't have that closure. So how do we regulate ourselves rather than relying on everyone else to regulate us for us?
Speaker 1:It's so good. Okay, Is there anything we missed today that you're like I really wanted to come back to this or I really wanted to mention this before we?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. I would say again, really, if you notice your brain going into those absolutes, or even there was something you had said a few moments ago that I meant to gently correct as a demonstration, where you used a lot of should language, we want to really be careful about that. What happens if we change should to? Could I could make a different choice right now. I could decide to do the dishes. Let me ask myself what's getting in the way of that right now? You see how that just has so much more room for compassion.
Speaker 2:So, really, I guess it comes down to language and really being mindful of it. Again, my clients would laugh if they hear this, because I say this all the time to them where we have to just watch how we might accidentally perpetuate that story and how do we start to break it, how do we start to see the outliers outside of that story. So I would say that, and also in terms of the people pleasing, just being curious about where it comes from and asking yourself is this still serving me? Is this what I would want my daughter to do if she was in a relationship with these kinds of dynamics? How can I start to ask myself those questions?
Speaker 1:I love that. I love the question of it. Does this still serve me? Is this still serving me? I think that's excellent. So, laura, this has been so good. Tell folks how they can follow you on all of your social media and find you on your website.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my website is lauriscrowlcswcom, my first and last name and my credential, and then you can find me on Instagram at the same handle, lauriscrowlcsw. That's S-G-R-O in scroll. Yeah, I've got an Instagram. Folks in California can reach out to me if they're interested in having a consultation to see if I might be a good fit as their therapist. But otherwise, folks can also sign up for my newsletter, whether they're in California or not, and I send out monthly tips about mental health and different resources and things of that nature. So I'm all over the internet if folks want to find me.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, and I'll obviously link to all of that in the show notes as well. Thanks for saying yes to being here.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. It's so good. I love talking about this stuff.
Speaker 1:It's so good and I love shifting the narrative right and then using the examples, and I love that you gave such really tangible things for folks to think about in ways they can prepare themselves, equip themselves. That's what you said earlier.
Speaker 2:Any time that we have something that's ingrained or feels default or automatic or comes from way back, when that's our inner child's coming out in the ways that they know how. It's all about those small steps. It's all about making this monumental task of quote unquote no longer being a perfectionist or people pleaser into something that's doable. I don't think that that's a doable standard, certainly not for myself, but maybe I can try to be more intentional about the decisions I make. Maybe I can try to be more intentional about the language that I use, about myself. Maybe I can forgive myself when I make mistakes and it's hard. But that's why I always come back to starting small. I always come back to really focusing on what do I need in moments where I feel just really icky about whatever is going on.
Speaker 1:Incredible. All of this has been so helpful and I'm just grateful. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I'm so happy to be able to have space with you and your listeners. This has been really fun.
Speaker 1:It's incredible Listener. Thanks for being here and until next week, stay safe and stay well everyone.