Welcome to a deeply personal and transformative episode of our podcast where we unpack the complexities of pregnancy loss, infertility, and maternal mental health, through the inspiring lens of our special guest, Dr. Corey Hess. Drawing from her personal journey of pregnancy loss and near-death childbirth experience, Dr. Hess unravels the unique pain of grieving a future that was dreamt but not realized, challenging societal expectations of motherhood, and the persistent stigma attached to seeking mental health treatment.
In our candid conversation with Dr. Hess, she guides us on how best to show up for our loved ones navigating grief - offering their stories space to breathe instead of burying them under well-meaning but often hurtful phrases. We navigate the tumultuous terrain of infertility, discussing the emotional, relational, and financial strains it imposes, and how it feels to watch friends and family have children while struggling to conceive. We want you to know that your pain is seen, your struggles are valid, and there is a community here that understands.
As we delve deeper into the daunting realities of pregnancy and postpartum experiences, Dr. Hess enlightens us on perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, loss, and the importance of mental health support. We talk about valuable resources from organizations like Postpartum Support International and the Muncie Maternal Mental Health Coalition. Through sharing her own harrowing story of nearly dying during childbirth, Dr. Hess sheds light on an often overlooked concern - maternal mortality. This episode is about breaking silences, challenging norms, and creating a safe space for honest conversations about the realities of motherhood. And most importantly, it's about supporting each other through it all.
www.bethtrammell.com
Welcome to a deeply personal and transformative episode of our podcast where we unpack the complexities of pregnancy loss, infertility, and maternal mental health, through the inspiring lens of our special guest, Dr. Corey Hess. Drawing from her personal journey of pregnancy loss and near-death childbirth experience, Dr. Hess unravels the unique pain of grieving a future that was dreamt but not realized, challenging societal expectations of motherhood, and the persistent stigma attached to seeking mental health treatment.
In our candid conversation with Dr. Hess, she guides us on how best to show up for our loved ones navigating grief - offering their stories space to breathe instead of burying them under well-meaning but often hurtful phrases. We navigate the tumultuous terrain of infertility, discussing the emotional, relational, and financial strains it imposes, and how it feels to watch friends and family have children while struggling to conceive. We want you to know that your pain is seen, your struggles are valid, and there is a community here that understands.
As we delve deeper into the daunting realities of pregnancy and postpartum experiences, Dr. Hess enlightens us on perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, loss, and the importance of mental health support. We talk about valuable resources from organizations like Postpartum Support International and the Muncie Maternal Mental Health Coalition. Through sharing her own harrowing story of nearly dying during childbirth, Dr. Hess sheds light on an often overlooked concern - maternal mortality. This episode is about breaking silences, challenging norms, and creating a safe space for honest conversations about the realities of motherhood. And most importantly, it's about supporting each other through it all.
www.bethtrammell.com
All right, listener, welcome back.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, dr Beth Tramel, and I am really thrilled to have my guest here with us, dr Corey Hess, to come on and talk about again another topic that I just don't think we talk enough about. That just impacts so many people and probably, dear listener, has impacted either you or someone you love, and so I'm thrilled to not necessarily thrilled that we have to talk about these things. I surely wish that these kinds of things wouldn't happen to anyone, because I've seen the suffering that happens around pregnancy loss, infant loss. But I have a guest here who is well the best person I could think of to talk about this subject, and so, corey, thanks for being here to have this conversation. I know it's a huge part of kind of your passion and the work that you do, and so I'm just grateful that we get to have a little bit of time, allowing you some space to share your expertise, your experiences, and I know it's going to be great for listeners. So go ahead, introduce yourself and then tell us one fun thing about you.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I am Corey Hess. I'm a psychologist and I specialize in maternal mental health. So I work doing integrated behavioral health care in an OB clinic where I see primarily patients who are pregnant or have had babies within the last year to three years, I would say and I'm a mom myself. I have three boys ages six, three and three months, and I love being a boy mom. It's so much fun, it's wild, yes, it's amazing. And let's see a fun fact I grew up in Massachusetts and so I'm a huge Boston sports fan. I love the red socks and the Patriots, which gets me in trouble living in Indiana, but that's okay.
Speaker 1:That's okay, that's great. Yeah, I mean six, three and three months. I mean you're in kind of all the stages, yes, yes, which makes it fun and a lot.
Speaker 2:It is a lot. It's a lot, it's overwhelming, but they're all just great, such sweet kids. Luckily, my baby is a good sleeper, thank God. So, you know that helps a lot. I can release to the people I'm working with right now because I'm in it.
Speaker 1:I understand yeah you know, it's really interesting because with six, three and three months you know you're like you're in it, but you've also gotten past it with some of them, so you can kind of share some of those experiences around like, okay, we'll get better, right, I mean? I think times with clients where you know you're just trying to encourage them that it will. It does not look like there's a light at the end of the tunnel, but it is there, no matter how it is yes, absolutely yeah, oh well, okay, so that's great, so all right.
Speaker 1:So this episode you know if I've had lots of conversations with folks over the last, you know, two decades of doing clinical work, but also just a lot of personal conversations with friends of mine around this idea of pregnancy loss, and it has been really eye-opening for me to hear these stories of folks that I've talked to about pregnancy loss and infant loss. But I don't think a lot of people talk about it, and so I'm just happy that we're going to create space to open the door for this conversation. And so how about we just get started? What's something that you often talk with folks about around this topic in particular?
Speaker 2:Sure, I agree. I think it's something that people don't often talk about. We're hearing more about it, I think, as people in the media are sharing their personal stories. Celebrities and such that have that platform, which is amazing, but I think, just generally speaking, among people's circles, there's not a whole lot of conversation happening about it.
Speaker 2:I think I first learned that when I myself experienced pregnancy loss. I was very naive. I thought okay, we're going to try to have a baby and we're going to have a baby. I thought that pregnancy equals baby, which is not always the case. I just had absolutely no clue. So after I experienced my first loss, I was in grad school studying counseling psychology and I was grieving. I had access to all the resources, I had tons of support, but yet I felt like I didn't know where to turn. I had even sought out therapy at the time and I found that it took me a couple tries before I found somebody that I felt like I could connect with and understood my experience enough so that they could be supportive to me. So, going through all of that, I thought, oh my gosh, wow, here I am. I'm in the mental health field and here I'm struggling to access resources and to really kind of understand these emotions, and so that's what kind of ignited my passion for maternal mental health and helping other people navigate loss.
Speaker 1:That is so powerful. Thank you for sharing that, and I can imagine it feels like it would be very complicated. The idea that we have around loss and grief is like losing some person who was alive, that we had relationship with, that we knew, we touched, we talked to that. That's the kind of thing you grieve. Yeah, do you agree that? I think some of the stigma around this, some of the struggle around this, is that some people are stuck at that level, like how can I grieve something that was a tiny seed in my body or just a tiny group of cells? How could I possibly grieve that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's such a different type of grief because it's a loss of something that you thought would be part of your future.
Speaker 2:So many women try for soul, or so many families, I should say, try for so long to have a baby.
Speaker 2:And I know, just speaking from my personal experience we had tried for two years and couldn't get pregnant, and so you're going through these cycles each month. Or you get your hopes up and then you're disappointed. You get your hopes up and then you're disappointed. And then you see those two pink lines and you're just elated and it's like for a moment you feel like everything you've ever wanted you're getting and your dreams are coming true and you're going to have this family and it's going to be so wonderful and amazing. And then all of that's taken away and it's just heartbreaking. And there are obviously various points at which someone can lose a pregnancy and I think oftentimes early losses are dismissed because people tell you oh, you weren't that far along, you can try again. But when you've been trying for years and you think this is it and it's not, it's so disappointing and it can feel very discouraging to even think about trying again and getting your hopes up and then being heartbroken over and over again.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just have to imagine how exhausting that cycle is, right, the ups and the downs and the excitement, the anticipation and that disappointment. I know that every person's story is very unique, but that just sounds like it would be just tremendously exhausting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, something I was naive about was just how many different ways you can lose a pregnancy. I think when we see pregnancy loss on TV or in the movies, it's kind of like this big event, right. It's like, oh, without going into too much detail, you can tell there's been a loss and it's like this one moment. And so I guess in my mind that was what I knew about miscarriage. I thought it was this one moment and you lost the baby and it's really sad and you grieve and move on.
Speaker 2:What I discovered going through it was that it doesn't always look like that. I know for me I had what they call a missed miscarriage, so I never had that moment. My body thought I was pregnant and it wasn't until I went in for my first visit where I was expecting to see a heartbeat, where they saw a baby that had stopped growing, that didn't have a heartbeat, and so I didn't know that I'd lost this baby until that appointment. And even then they give you hope, right, like, oh well, maybe we'll see it next time, let's wait a week and come back. And it's like torture, torture. Just every passing minute, an hour feels like forever, it feels like you're never gonna get to that next appointment, and then you have that hope well, maybe there'll be a heartbeat, and when there's not, it's just. I mean, those words are forever etched in my mind, just from my personal experience.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry there's not a heartbeat. And then what do you do after? Then they give you all these options, like, ok, so we can do a surgery to help this process along. You can wait, like your pregnancy's not going to continue. At some point you will miscarry. You can wait and see when that's going to happen. You can take medication to speed this process along. And so they lay out all these options for you and it's like you're hearing all this for the first time. You didn't know this could happen and it's very confusing and scary. And nobody talks about that part. I think.
Speaker 1:No one talks about that part that you're already in such horrific shock, and I can only imagine all of the things that go through a person's mind of just numbness, withdrawal, a trauma response, fight, flight free. You know it is a trauma response, and then you have to make all of these medical decisions that are also very complicated, and so it's so hard to imagine not just that moment but then all of the moments that you look back on that moment. I can just imagine replaying those moments and it's necessary. I know that, logically, we can all sit back and see this as well. This is just what has to be done for your body medically, and yet when we sit back to think about it, how unfair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think what's hard too is miscarriage is so common One in four pregnancies ends in miscarriage and so for medical providers, it is this common occurrence, and so they don't have the training to think about the mental health aspect of it, and so they give the information in the best way possible. But oftentimes it's just another patient as part of their day and sharing this devastating news, and then just business as usual.
Speaker 1:Right into medical treatment. I mean, their job is to treat you medically Right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Now we have to make a path toward treating you medically.
Speaker 2:Right. And that's where I think integrated behavioral health care is so important. Because when you have the ability to call on someone from behavioral medicine and say I'm going to do this warm handoff now so that you can talk with someone about this, because I'm sure you're having a lot of emotions right now, it makes such a huge difference Because otherwise, I know for me I was just left feeling confused Because you're told this devastating information and then you're left to process it Like wait a minute, what just happened? And feeling like you don't know what to do next.
Speaker 1:Can we talk for a minute about the guilt around miscarriage that probably, in particular, moms feel, but not necessarily that there are no feelings that the father might feel, but in particular this idea of guilt around miscarriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that comes up a lot. What could I have done to prevent this? What did I do wrong? And as much as you tell a mom they're not to blame, they'll find things that they could have done differently and question, well, what if this, or what if that, or what if I had gone to the doctor sooner? And I see that a lot more with things with later term losses and infant loss in particular. Just so much self-flame and well, what ifs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I know I can imagine that happens. I can imagine there are lots of moms who have experienced that. I want to come back to something you had said earlier about things that people say. I think around grief in particular, there are lots of things that people say that they are in their truest of hearts trying to just be helpful, and yet there are lots of pretty unhelpful things that people say and perhaps more helpful things that we could suggest. So could you maybe share a thing or two about maybe the not helpful thing, like don't ever say this again, kind of thing, yeah, and then maybe something that they could say instead, because I think, like I said, I think most people really do want to just support someone and they are afraid they're going to say the wrong thing. They want to just make you feel better, but maybe let's give them some more tangible things that they could say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, things that I hear a lot are you can try again, you'll be able to have children, and that is certainly well-intentioned but not helpful in the.
Speaker 1:Moment.
Speaker 2:And also we don't know, like there are many people who have losses and then they cannot have children or they do not, and so that's just not a helpful thing to say. Or this happened for a reason. Everything happens for a reason. This was part of God's plan. Not helpful, I think. Really just meeting the person where they're at and allowing them to speak, to share whatever it is that they want to share, and really just simply saying I'm here for you, yeah, I'm here for you, is enough, letting the person know that if they want to talk about it, you're here. If they don't want to talk about it, you're here.
Speaker 2:And I think too asking about their baby, you know, asking about their experience. Tell me about the moment you found out you were pregnant, or just tell me. I'm asking to hear their story and showing genuine interests and care. And especially for people that lost babies, I think oftentimes there's this belief if I bring up the baby or if I talk about the baby, it's gonna make the person upset. There are any feeling, all those feelings, and feeling isolated because nobody's asking, nobody's talking about the baby, nobody's bringing up the baby's name, and so they're left feeling like my baby didn't matter, yeah, people forgot and and so being willing to step into that space of discomfort with them and Having those conversations and asking for them to share about their baby or ask what was your baby's name, or to show pictures, you know, I think all of those things are really helpful and healing to know, wow, somebody really cares and they, they want to hear my story.
Speaker 1:I am so grateful you shared that. I think everything you said is the the same thing that I have experienced with people too, as they're afraid To upset someone, so they don't want to bring it up, or they just think I'm just gonna make it better by just saying like you're gonna be okay, you know you're gonna be okay, and the reality is it just misses the like, the lived experience of that person. When we do that. I love the examples that you shared.
Speaker 1:It's totally, totally appropriate to say I've been thinking about you, I've been thinking about you and that baby. I just would love to hear how you're doing. I missed that. I didn't get to meet your baby. Yeah, I mean that would be a totally appropriate thing to say and then say you know, how are you doing? You know and just listening space for that. I love that as Something that's not just like good and appropriate, but it's healing. I mean that's what you said, you know, and and I agree that I've talked to other folks who've been in in situations around grief and and they say the same thing Right, that it's healing to have people remember. Yes.
Speaker 2:Oh, and as time goes on, to you know, as anniversaries approach, and especially to for people who are pregnant, after loss, sometimes there's this belief Well, this baby, you know, makes up for the loss or somehow Takes away the pain. When it doesn't, you're still gonna have those questions. Well, what if? And? And then the the emotions become even more complex. Right, because it's like you love your child and you love your baby. That's here, but you also know this baby's here because the other one's not. And so how might things have been different?
Speaker 2:and and and not wanting things to be different because you love the baby you have? Yeah, but there's always that one it.
Speaker 1:What if, in the back of your mind, and I love that you're bringing this up, because I Think some folks get real stuck right there, like how could I possibly Think or feel these things because I have a baby here, right, like it's, this is how emotions get, this is our thoughts, emotions. They get real messed up, you know, in us and then we Isolate, we feel alone, we don't reach out. You know, I think this is how folks get stuck. Yeah, because of what you just said, that like it's so complicated, because the grief doesn't go away, the sadness doesn't go away right.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a guilt to you know, you mentioned guilt earlier and feeling guilty because Maybe you missed that baby you lost, or maybe you wish you could have carried that pregnancy to term, but you know that means you wouldn't have this child in front of you or this pregnancy. And so feeling like, well, what does that say about me? Am I bad mom? Am I bad person? Because I'm not thankful or wholeheartedly thankful, acknowledging that you can feel both. Right, like you can feel wholeheartedly thankful for this child, but all and Sad that you lost that pregnancy. But so many people feel like, well, it's either or I can't. I can't feel both at the same time and I feel like I have that conversation, you know all the time.
Speaker 1:Daily yeah all the time because we do. I mean, we are kind of a society that Says, like it's one or the other, really you can both. And yet the reality is we are both all the time. Yes, and that makes us sometimes feel Crazy, mm-hmm, absolutely, or frustrated, or right. Then we have like more emotion around it, like why could I possibly be doing this? Or it's almost like that like friction around, like I, how can I possibly be Experiencing all these things? And that actually causes more havoc Emotionally. Right, because we're not just like, okay, yeah, that's fair, it's fair for me to be experiencing more than one emotion at the same time. Yeah, okay, let's add another layer of complication that I know happens for folks, and that is, you know, you kind of spoke to a little bit of the idea of infertility, where you're trying and trying, and how about for folks who have tried now are doing either Insimilation or IVF and then they lose a pregnancy or an infant? How does that impact things?
Speaker 2:You know, like you said, there are just so many layers to that. There's the, the grief and the loss, there's the relationship, and often times it causes so much strain on a marriage To to be going through all of that and to feel like that's what your relationship has become yeah, like to create this child, and that's all you talk about, and that it consumes every Moment of your, your day. And the financial piece, the investment, the cost, you know, and you hate to think about that piece, but it, it's, it's a part of it. And so, on top of losing a pregnancy, you know you've potentially put tens of thousands of dollars invested into this process. And you know, we know, that money is one of the things that most couples argue about anyway, and so maybe one partner doesn't want to spend the money and the other does, and how do you possibly navigate that? And you can't really come to a compromise about that. It's like, well, how many times are we going to try?
Speaker 2:And it's about creating this family and it can be hard for couples to get on the same page around that and just that process, and those are things you don't often talk about when you decide you're going to have a child. Like I spoke earlier, I was just naive. I thought, okay, let's have a baby, but it's not that simple, unfortunately, and so oftentimes you're not having these conversations until you're in the middle of it, you're in the thick of it, and that's not the best time to be having those conversations, but there's really no way around it. And so knowing ways to seek out support for that, I think is so important, and there are lots of communities, supportive communities for couples going through that, and I definitely think everybody needs to have their village of people around them in navigating that whole process, because it's hard to go through alone. Lj.
Speaker 1:I mean, I was just thinking about. You know some common things that people say to couples who are quote unquote trying and they're like oh yeah, you know, you're trying to have a baby, you're just get to have sex all the time and you know, what a great time in your relationship.
Speaker 1:And I think if we put that on a shelf for a second and we compare it to what you just described for couples, in particular those going through infertility, the ups and downs that we were talking about earlier, but then add the, you know, the medical intervention part to your point, right when it's like well now it's not about having fun sex with my partner. It is a much more complicated process and not a fun process and it's costly, not just financially but also in terms of time and so the level of strain on you know a relationship I love. You bring up this idea of a village because I can imagine it would be really tough to find couple, friends, people in your circle who can know how to support you well, or you know, then I started thinking about gosh. You know these. This couple is going through this really hard thing and now they have to train all their friends on how to respond.
Speaker 1:So then the burden, right, if you don't want to find another group of friends, right, and we're going to talk about some you know potentially resources in your community or online, right, maybe you've found to be helpful. But if you're not going to find people that way and you're going to rely on your friends here, your friends here are going to say the wrong things, probably, and so then the burden is on you to like train them on how to respond, and you're already exhausted and tired, and so I can imagine folks like not wanting to hang out with people, and then you've got a spiral effect of, I mean, just yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think compounding that too is when you're in that stage of life, right, a lot of your friends or family members are having babies, and so then you're suffering through every pregnancy announcement, every baby shower, every family gathering, because it's so painful, yes, to be around other people, and even close friends you know, that are having children and you want to be happy for them and you are but at the same time you resent them a little bit and then you feel guilty because it's like why can't I just be happy for my friend that's having this child or my family member, but you don't? It's like you feel pain when you see an announcement and to have to say no to baby shower invitations. That can cause strain in friendships. So, yeah, I mean, it's not just the marriage relationship that suffers, it's lots of relationships and navigating all these little things that come up.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so glad you said that. Oh, it's so true. Because here we are, we're back to that thing again of like experiencing so many emotions all at once. Right, we're like I want to be happy for my friend, but I kind of hate her. Maybe you don't hate people I try not to hate people, you know but it's like I'm so angry and I'm so resentful and how come she gets to have a pregnancy or goodness sakes. You know seeing things on social media or hearing news about people who you know are getting pregnant, you know these pregnancies that you think maybe shouldn't be happening and are not getting pregnant. I mean, it's just very, very complicated. So I'm just glad that we're shedding light on some of these things that are very normal reactions, very painful reactions for people. And then how do we? How do we love people?
Speaker 1:well, yeah, I mean, I'm just grateful for that. Yeah, okay. So how? How can if you're a person who is kind of in the darkness of this right now? Where can a person find some support?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I love that you just use the word darkness right, Because I think that comes up a lot in this work and there's a wonderful organization called Postpartum Support International and they have a website, postpartumnet, and they have weekly support groups that are free for so many different populations.
Speaker 2:I mean, they have groups for military moms, they have groups for loss, they have groups for groups for early loss, late term loss, single parents, you know, couples that are going through fertility treatments, and what I love about this organization in particular is that all their groups are free and they're able to do that because they host events. We have one that we do here locally every year. It's called the Climb Out of the Darkness Walk, and these are events that happen all around the world actually, and it's their fundraiser that they do, and so they're raising awareness about perinatal mood and anxiety disorders and all everything that we've been talking about today, really just bringing an awareness to that and then creating a safe space in the community for people to come together and let others know you're not alone, like we're your village. We're here, we'll get you through this, we'll help you through this, whatever you need, whatever that's going to look like.
Speaker 1:I am so grateful for you and the work you're doing because you know you have shared a little bit about your professional experiences, but also your personal experiences, and I know that you have been such a light for so many people and I'm so grateful. I know that you have started a kind of coalition here locally. Can you tell folks a little bit about the work you're doing locally?
Speaker 2:Sure. So we started the Muncie Maternal Mental Health Coalition in 2019. And our primary goal is to raise awareness and support, offer support for families going through all of these things that we've been talking about today, and so the first thing we did was get a team together so that we could host one of the Climb Out of the Darkness Walks, and so we actually just did our third one this year, and it's been wonderful. We've been able to raise funds for the coalition and for post-partum support international and really create that space for women in our community, families in our community, to come together and just know that they're not alone.
Speaker 2:These are things it's common. You know, one in four women is going to experience a loss and one in five women is going to experience a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder, and so just learning a little bit more about that and we hear a lot about post-partum depression we don't hear a lot about some of the other things. We also host a website and there's lots of information there and just links to other helpful resources that people can go to, and then we've worked on a few research projects in collaboration with Ball State, trying to increase access to services, so we've been able to train some mental health providers locally, specifically in perinatal mental health. We don't get a lot of training in that. I would say we get no training in that going through school and postpartum for international actually offers a two-day training and you can get certified in maternal mental health and I think every mental health professional should do this training because if you're working it affects everybody.
Speaker 1:You know it really does.
Speaker 2:And so knowing what questions you need to be asking on intake forums and knowing what resources are out there, I think is just so important. We train some more people and then also we're trying to develop like a peer-based program, because I think really just sharing stories is so powerful and you know, in terms of knowing you're not alone, knowing there's other people in your community that have gone through this and how they've navigated. That is so important, and I think sometimes there's more power in that because unfortunately, there's still a stigma with seeking mental health treatment, and so if you can have these peers in place, people are more likely to get connected, and so that's something we've been trying to do as well.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. The work you're doing is amazing. I know it's powerful, not just locally, but even further than that, so I'm grateful for the work you're doing. Is there anything that we miss today that you want to share?
Speaker 2:This is a whole can of worms, but I just want to really briefly bring it up. I think a piece that goes along with all of this is maternal mortality.
Speaker 2:And unfortunately, in our country the rates of maternal mortality are so high and that's something I didn't know either until I had a near miss which I almost lost my life due to a pregnancy-related complication but you know, more women die during childbirth or pregnancy in the United States than in other countries that are much more underdeveloped than we are, and so the statistics on that are just staggering. And I think, going along with that mental health piece specifically for clinicians, I think that's something to be aware of, because there's so much trauma there and so many families are affected, right Like families that have lost mothers, or families that even have had traumatic birth experiences or these complications where they almost lost a mom, and there's this thought well, we should just be thankful that we have mom here, we have baby here, and we never go back to that trauma piece. And so just planting that seed in the minds of clinicians that maybe are listening, I think that's a really important piece just to be aware of and think about as you're working with people.
Speaker 1:You know it's so interesting. I'm just going to share my immediate reaction. When someone says like I almost died in childbirth, we don't pause to be like what? Like there's something in us that we're just like, oh, okay, well, she's here, you know it's like because it's an almost happened, but you're here obviously. Then it's like, okay, well, it's not, you know, obviously she's fine. I don't know what that is in our like, what messages we continue to hear about. That that makes us not be like, wow, that is an important part of your story that I need to pause for and be a part of hearing, because it matters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I don't know what that is right, but there's something that we're just like. Oh well, you almost died, but maybe it's not that big of a deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think part of it is sadly, it's common and it should not be, so I think it comes up a lot, but then also I think we don't want to think about it right.
Speaker 1:Like, especially as moms, it's like you don't want to hear that you don't want to acknowledge that you don't want to hear it because it's scary. It's scary.
Speaker 2:And so you just kind of choose to turn away from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it's terrifying if you were to step into that space. Yeah, it's terrifying, and even for women who are pregnant I know for me, especially with this last pregnancy right, I just had a baby three months ago it's like when you know everything that can go wrong, it creates a lot of anxiety. It's like, oh my gosh, well, what if this happens? Or what if that happens?
Speaker 1:And knowing all of that, it's almost like ignorance is bliss, that's right.
Speaker 2:I just want to be ignorant. I don't want to know.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:It's a way to turn away from it.
Speaker 1:We really do, and I think, because of that discomfort, add onto it that, like you're right in front of me, you look happy and healthy and everything's fine, so let's just skim over it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that that's really common for us to do, and what I hear from you is you know, maybe there is an opportunity for us to show up differently for people in our lives when we hear about their pregnancy story and that it did not go smoothly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, and I think it's tied to these messages we receive just from society motherhood, about motherhood. Motherhood is supposed to be this beautiful experience. It's the happiest time of your life. You're supposed to enjoy every moment, and we know that's not really how it is.
Speaker 1:It's not exactly how everybody lives their everyday life.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that pregnancy is supposed to be a joyful time and giving birth to your baby is supposed to be this beautiful experience. Yeah, you're supposed to connect with your baby right away and we just don't like not, that doesn't happen for everybody and that's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't make you a bad person or a bad mom. But we are sort of programmed to believe that's true because we go into it with these expectations that it's going to be this amazing thing, and when it's not, we automatically say what's wrong with me?
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:You're right. We are opening a can of worms just in the last episode. It's perfect. I know I was hesitant but I had to throw it in there.
Speaker 2:I had to get that piece in.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you did, because I think that that is the goal of this is to have the conversations around things that people generally don't know, and I say this all the time that such a huge part of the job that I get to do, the job you get to do, it is a tremendous privilege that we get to walk alongside folks in struggle and they tell us things that they don't tell most other people, and so it's a tremendous privilege for us to know some of the things that most people don't know, and I think that that has been kind of at the heart of what I've wanted this podcast to be about that some things happen in life that some of us get real caught up in or really stuck in, and when you talk to a therapist, we're sort of like, yeah, I believe you're going to be okay, because I've seen 40 other people who share a really similar thing, but because nobody else knows that, because they don't hear the stories that we hear, that's kind of what I was hoping that this podcast could be to bring some of those things to light so that folks wouldn't feel so alone, and so I'm just grateful for you to come and share this story, share your expertise, because it really is illuminating in so many ways.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for the opportunity. I love talking about this. It's definitely my passion, and I think just the more opportunities to talk about it and shed light on it are just so important. So I appreciate you and just everything that you're doing with your podcast and for inviting me on today.
Speaker 1:It's great. It's great Listener. Thank you for being here and until next time, stay safe and stay well. I'll be sure to link to all the things that Dr Hess talked about, the links to your website and all of the other things, so be sure to check those out and until next time, ciao.