Are you ready to transform your approach to New Year's resolutions and embrace a balanced path to self-improvement? In this replay, Dr. Michael Alcee joins us once again, bringing his profound insights into why resolutions simultaneously inspire and daunt us. Together, we unpack the annual ritual of setting goals, dissecting the psyche behind the burst of ambition that greets January 1st, while examining the skepticism that sees these resolutions often abandoned shortly after. Dr. Alcee even pulls back the curtain on his own life, sharing his experience of channeling creativity through a unique outlet—a therapists' garage band—providing a vibrant backdrop to our exploration of intentions and growth.
Finding harmony between self-acceptance and the pursuit of progress can feel like walking a tightrope, but this episode aims to offer you the balance needed to tread confidently. We delve into the concept of living in the paradox, where the key is appreciating the present while fostering the seeds of development. Drawing inspiration from the arts, we discuss the importance of recognizing our dual nature—static yet dynamic—and how figures like Emily Dickinson and Henry David Thoreau embraced spirituality in everyday life. This conversation invites you to consider a more compassionate approach to personal development, one that values who you are today without the unyielding chase for 'more'.
The artistry of goal setting takes center stage as we dissect the SMART criteria and its role in forging effective, intrinsic motivation. Flexibility within a structured plan is emphasized, as it helps avoid the common pitfalls that derail resolutions. By sharing personal anecdotes, Dr. Alcee illustrates how constraints can often lead to the most creative breakthroughs, encouraging listeners to value the journey as much as the destination. We bring to light the importance of balancing the quantitative markers of success with qualitative experiences, ensuring that your path to personal growth is not only effective but also enjoyable and truly fulfilling.
Michael Alcée, Ph.D. is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Tarrytown, NY and Mental Health Educator at Manhattan School of Music. He specializes in the psychology of artists and everyday creativity and the professional development of therapists. His contributions have appeared in The Chicago Tribune, The New York Times, The New York Post, NPR, Salon.com, and on the TEDx stage. His book from Norton entitled Therapeutic Improvisation: How to Stop Winging It and Own It as a Therapist is available wherever books are sold.
Book Link
Website
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Are you ready to transform your approach to New Year's resolutions and embrace a balanced path to self-improvement? In this replay, Dr. Michael Alcee joins us once again, bringing his profound insights into why resolutions simultaneously inspire and daunt us. Together, we unpack the annual ritual of setting goals, dissecting the psyche behind the burst of ambition that greets January 1st, while examining the skepticism that sees these resolutions often abandoned shortly after. Dr. Alcee even pulls back the curtain on his own life, sharing his experience of channeling creativity through a unique outlet—a therapists' garage band—providing a vibrant backdrop to our exploration of intentions and growth.
Finding harmony between self-acceptance and the pursuit of progress can feel like walking a tightrope, but this episode aims to offer you the balance needed to tread confidently. We delve into the concept of living in the paradox, where the key is appreciating the present while fostering the seeds of development. Drawing inspiration from the arts, we discuss the importance of recognizing our dual nature—static yet dynamic—and how figures like Emily Dickinson and Henry David Thoreau embraced spirituality in everyday life. This conversation invites you to consider a more compassionate approach to personal development, one that values who you are today without the unyielding chase for 'more'.
The artistry of goal setting takes center stage as we dissect the SMART criteria and its role in forging effective, intrinsic motivation. Flexibility within a structured plan is emphasized, as it helps avoid the common pitfalls that derail resolutions. By sharing personal anecdotes, Dr. Alcee illustrates how constraints can often lead to the most creative breakthroughs, encouraging listeners to value the journey as much as the destination. We bring to light the importance of balancing the quantitative markers of success with qualitative experiences, ensuring that your path to personal growth is not only effective but also enjoyable and truly fulfilling.
Michael Alcée, Ph.D. is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Tarrytown, NY and Mental Health Educator at Manhattan School of Music. He specializes in the psychology of artists and everyday creativity and the professional development of therapists. His contributions have appeared in The Chicago Tribune, The New York Times, The New York Post, NPR, Salon.com, and on the TEDx stage. His book from Norton entitled Therapeutic Improvisation: How to Stop Winging It and Own It as a Therapist is available wherever books are sold.
Book Link
Website
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Hey everyone, welcome back to Things you Learned Therapy. I am so excited that I just randomly I basically just randomly emailed you, michael, and was like hey, you're gonna come on the podcast this week and you remarkably said yes, and so I am so happy to have you back, because every time you come we just start like yeah, it's just fun, and I hope that listeners actually your episodes continue to be episodes that people email me about and they say that guy is so brilliant.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's sweet.
Speaker 1:They really do, they really do so anyway.
Speaker 2:I'm emailing it now.
Speaker 1:It's your mom? I don't think it is. I think they're real people. Yeah, so I am Dr Bertramal, I'm the host here and I'm a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at IU East in Richmond, indiana, and I really focus on trying to make words matter for good, and this podcast is really meant to kind of fill some gaps for folks, right, like, I try to interview awesome people to share some good information with the public, and so Dr Michael Alsey is here again. You have two other episodes. Both were very different but very awesome. So if folks want to kind of listen to those two, that'd be great. But tell us a little bit about you. And then we didn't talk about this before I started recording, but are you ready for one fun fact about you? Sure, yeah, definitely Go for it.
Speaker 2:Let's see so, fun fact Throughout my life I've played piano, jazz, classical and recently some therapists in the area and I have started a little fun OMS, midlife Crisis Garage Band and we've been playing everything from Beatles Don't Let Me Down to Psycho Killer, by the Talking Heads and you name it. And it's just such a treat.
Speaker 1:They're all therapists who are part of this band.
Speaker 2:Oh there's one person who's in finance and we joke because we sort of like use all sorts of professional jargon all the time, and she's like listen, guys, I'm not on the meter, you're not on the meter, stop it.
Speaker 1:It's hysterical, I can only imagine. You know, when you're in a group of friends and, like the bulk of you are therapists or psychologists, and then you have one or two that aren't, you're like I'm sorry, just can't help it, we can't help it and the puns are flying all over the place, you know, because we love that stuff.
Speaker 1:And I know that you and music are very deeply rooted and that was part of our first talk together and I know it's a big part of your work. And while I want to just talk about all those things, part of why I asked you to be here is because you are in the news. It's very fancy.
Speaker 1:Yeah talking about New Year's resolutions and that's exactly what I was kind of looking forward to talking about this week. So I just want for you to just, you know, start us off like let's talk about New Year's resolutions and what do you typically say to people about them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, most people either love them, hate them, leave them, keep them. Yeah, it's true, it's true, there's usually not an in between. Yeah, and you're right, I have a love hate relationship with New Year's resolutions, and let's explain why. I think most of us do. You either love them because you're like that's right, I'm going to get into shape this year physically, emotionally, spiritually, anything and everything you can think of.
Speaker 2:People will make resolutions about yeah, right, maybe you're going to write the great American novel, maybe you're going to shed a few pounds, maybe you're going to be a better parent or a better worker or something.
Speaker 2:And that's great because, on the one hand, when we track something, we back something, so to speak, right, when we follow and measure something, we tend to improve it and we tend to show more results because we're being specific and measure about it like, right, that's great. On the other hand, the people who hate resolutions and I'm in this campus well, yep, is, we hate them because they are a little bit too decisive and shouldy resolution. You must resolutely do this. Yeah, now, most of us who have any connection to a creative process know that these things must unfold. And there's also a hidden kind of meta message that some people in New Year's resolutions are like you're not really good enough as you are, so I want you to change. Yeah, true, so those of us who hate resolutions are like how dare you not accept me for who I am, internally or externally? And I want freedom from this thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there's a cool surprise that, hopefully, as we talk about, I think you can do both and do them well, and I think there might even be a way that we can politically bring the New Year's resolution haters and the New Year's resolutions lever to pass an interesting bill of joint legislation to say what we can do.
Speaker 1:This is going to be a remarkable episode if we can do that. We're gonna try, we're gonna do our best, yeah, okay. So I mean I'm right there with you, right? I think there is something that happens for people when we get through the holidays and we start a new year that I think our resolution lovers are like yeah, I'm gonna do all the things. And I'm gonna be like so amazing. I mean, what is it that happens? I mean especially around this year, because it's this phenomenon that I think all of us can resonate with that it's like after the holidays, we're like, yeah, we're gonna do all the things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's almost like this overcompensated kind of bluster and swagger that some people have, and maybe all of us have a little bit of like. It's sort of the go big or go home aspect of new year's, like no, no, this is gonna be my year, man, I'm going keto right, or like you know, I'm lifting or you know getting clients left and right or whatever insert XYZ, it doesn't matter. And I think there is something a little like there's on the positive sense, there's some healthy ambition there.
Speaker 2:I like the healthy ambition part, but there's also a little bit of a comic grandiosity about all of us when we do this and it's so overcompensated from the sort of dead week between Christmas and New Year's, right, it's like the deadest, least productive week of the year, and so there's such an interesting psychological overcompensation for like no, no, no, no, this is it man. And I think there's a lot of us that see the kind of like, like sort of false bravado and an illusion of being able to really maintain that there's something that seems a little bit disingenuous, right, and there's also a little bit of a shadow side of toxic positivity operating to, yeah, like I think we talk about like there's healthy positivity, there's healthy optimism, there's healthy you should have goals and it's good to have healthy ambition. I think there's a little bit of a side order of toxic positivity that you know can can kind of be an allergen here.
Speaker 1:You know, do you think that that's where the like New Year's resolution haters kind of live? Did they kind of live in that camp where it's like man, y'all are being too much right now and you're never going to achieve that? Do you think that that's where a lot of them kind of live?
Speaker 2:I love that. I think there is a sense of get over yourselves, yeah, and it's a way, like Carl Coler Yongo always said, like something really interesting, like whenever we were acting in our conscious life in a way that was too narcissistic or too inflated, you'd have a complimentary dream of yourself falling off cliff and I think the haters are saying, whoa, bring this back down to human scale. Yeah, and I think they also overdo it by hating it completely, because I don't think it's really a bad thing or problematic to hate it, and that's why I don't think New Year's resolutions in of themselves are bad, but it's like how do you relate to them and how can you make them a little bit more not only process driven, but also more mindful, more compassionate and also more, like I said, more human? Yeah, right, and I think that's where, again, I think both camps have it a little lot right and a lot wrong, or maybe a little right and a lot wrong, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are the other? Yeah, yeah, I like I mean, I remember this about you being so grounded in this human-ness kind of philosophy, right. That, like so much of your work, really does come back to this idea of human-ness, and so I love that you're relating that to both sides of that story and I think I love this idea of coming back to being human about it, whether you are all in with a resolution or you're not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I mean we've talked about this before too that we are foolishly beautiful and beautifully foolish as human beings, and when we embrace that and integrate that, we are at our best. Ironically, we are at our best when we are most grand and humble at the same time, and that's why I think actually integrating from both camps is really the best way to go. Like I do. I do like have some general resolutions for myself, but I also think it's really important to kind of say, hey, what am I going to have fun with and play with this year? What am I going to expand? What am I going to track?
Speaker 2:And some of that is also like I want to have a nice relationship with these goals, and it's more like falling in love. You don't compel your significant other to fall in love with you, you try to help it unfold, and so if you're staying closer to the process, that's the thing that's really driving it. The resolution part sometimes gets a little bit too alpha yeah, and the alpha part, yes. And so the healthy part of the alpha, I think, is to say yeah, yeah, I want to have like that healthy authority with like kind of like kind of keeping accountable, but also keeping like discriminating and not get too lost in the process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but again, that's got to be on human scale, because when it's out of human scale, like you said, when it gets to grandiose, like you think you can do this, it's really compensating for a place that is afraid of our own humanity and imperfection. Right, yeah, we are imperfectly perfect or perfectly imperfect, right? So if we can embrace it from that space because a lot of people don't realize that some of their resolutions are sort of internalized critics or internalized bullies that they are now celebrating- yeah, that for me is the part that is kind of the most interesting when I consider the resolution.
Speaker 1:Dislikers right that they're not doing it. They don't want to do it. For me, you know, resolution is really just the restart of goal setting and I don't know how you live life without some sort of goal. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's a new big thing I'm going to do. It may be a continuation of a thing I'm already doing, but for me it still comes back to having continual goals. I don't know, Michael, am I just too biased around always wanting to grow Like, do people live without a goal?
Speaker 2:Us therapists are very much like this and it's funny, just before I was speaking to you today, I was speaking to a very reflective, introverted, introspective client and we were both having fun sport of this, and she said to me something very similar like how do people like not just do this more generally and regularly, like don't you focus on goals and don't you like think about how, making adjustments throughout? And I laughed at her and I said, yeah, you're right, because as someone who's really introspective and somebody who is, you know, constantly trying to process things, this should be much more every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think maybe that's another part of this. There's two things that I think come from this. One is that there's a very defined, easy ritual marker here. Yeah, of time is changing, where everyone collectively can see it in a tangible way and this becomes a reminder and that's part of it. Like any holiday, if you will, the ritual space is active, yep, but the problem is how. And if you look at the other side, when you're saying hey, how can people don't do this is because I think the reason that sometimes people also hate it we don't understand it is one.
Speaker 2:We're a little biases therapist because we presume everybody's going to be introspective and maybe interesting on how they can like not just improve, but to expand and grow and like get to know that you're full of range. That's true as well. The other reason I think we start to judge it is because it very much reminds us of a college sophomore saying they're going to cram and do all their work in one night, yeah, yeah. And there is a little bit of that mentality, which is why it's sort of funny that we know that.
Speaker 2:You know, january 19th, as I've researched, is known as Quitter's Day, because some surveys so 80, 90%, 91% even of people really ditch their resolutions, yep, and so the funny thing about it is that, you know, we're given all this kind of like sophomores swagger to the fact that, yeah, we're going to cram and get this all done, and it's sort of a little bit of a mirror on wait. Why aren't we, as individuals in a culture, seeing this as just an everyday part of life? Yeah, and yet, at the same time, one of the cool things about the new year is it's an opportunity for all of us to take inventory and reset and restart, and I think that can still be a very positive thing.
Speaker 1:I love this. I love kind of thinking for those of us who are, I mean, really honestly on either side of that but thinking about New Year's resolutions being just a collective ritual that we kind of reset right. So New Year's is the time, it's just the time that we kind of reset. And I think there are some people listening that are gonna be like yeah, that's why I hate it, like why do you have to wait till a Monday to start your diet? Like why can't you just be this all the time? And I think there are other folks that really appreciate that time sensitive part, right, and the ritualistic part that we're like everybody's trying to be a better version of themselves. So I love this idea of it being kind of time specific. And I also can hear the folks in the back you know the roll in their eyes like, yeah, y'all will be quitting on January 19th, just like he said.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and you're right. It's also it reminds me of like in the 19th century, like when Emily Dickinson was writing poetry in some ways, like she was probably thinking well, why do you feel like you have to go to church to see God or to connect with God? Or like you know, henry David Thoreau, right, like, why couldn't you go into the forest and see God? And why do you? And why, how do you not notice that there's something very arbitrary about you over-inflating this thing when it's right before? Why don't your feet all the time?
Speaker 2:And I think that's where some of the people like say like, this is overblown. And yet there is something important, and the funny thing is, as a culture, we don't have many, many big, collectively unifying rituals, and so I think this also takes on a bigger weight for that, and also a bigger weight think about it across the world, right, it's something that unifies everybody, no matter what time zone you live in, no matter what country, and so it's something that takes on a so-called religious significance without a sense of any healthy mythology to connect to it too.
Speaker 1:Okay, so our goal at the beginning of this was to set out to bring these two camps kind of closer together, and I like, how can we do that kind of irrespective of how we're approaching? Quote New Year's resolution. So does it start with us seeing it just as setting realistic goals regardless of where we stand, or how do you talk about this? How do people do it kind of regardless of where they're coming from? Yeah, I mean, I think it's important for people to say listen.
Speaker 2:If you're the kind of person that really gets pumped and amped about being able to reset your goals at this time, great, and I hope you can respect that. I'm doing it throughout the year or I'm doing it at whatever way it is and that's no less than right. Yours is no better and mine is no better. And let me, on the other hand too, of also the people who are the real gung-ho New Year's resolutions, people understanding that there could be some possible hurtful baggage in some of the implied ways in which resolutions can feel very shitting on us, very. If only you were this, you'd be a better person which could map out to things that we do to ourselves, things that we've internalized with trauma, things that we've internalized with parents, teachers, the culture not prizing or valuing us, even in places where we're not as fully put together, and to recognize that those realities can coexist without having to have a victor on either side.
Speaker 1:You know, I think about those two things that maybe it didn't come up around this time of New Year's resolutions, but this idea of it's okay to not have to keep striving for more, more, more, better, better, better. Maybe who you are, where you are right now, is exactly how you should continue to operate, and that doesn't mean you're without a goal, right, I mean, creating and maintaining where you're at is also you know, it's also a great goal and it doesn't have to be more, more, more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you know it's also possible to live in the paradox of both of both. Really, just, you know, I think that's also where artists can attend to be too. Is that like? Artists are constantly like, thinking about, like hmm, I accept this, like I recently saw Steven Spielberg's the Fablements right, it's this wonderful, like sort of very autobiographical picture about his relationships to his parents and his falling in love with film, and there's something really beautiful about it, because what's neat is that when you accept and love who you are and where you've come from, but you also find a way to expand at the same time. That is the art.
Speaker 2:And there's this brilliant scene for any who haven't seen it yet but Judd Hirsch plays an uncle who worked for the circus or something, and he has this amazing dramatic monologue with the young boy who's playing the Steven Spielberg character and he is basically laying out before us how challenging it is to expand and choose your art and to love your family at the same time, in a certain way, is can you love yourself as you are without changing it, and can you not be satisfied and restless and to be able to work with both of those, which I think Spielberg has done throughout his career, right, whether it's an ET or you know so many of the films that he has done. Catch Me If you Can. He's always kind of connecting to the ways in which his childhood has stayed with him, but also finding new and inventive ways of reimagining what's possible in his own vision, and I think that's a really, really interesting place to be coming from.
Speaker 1:So if I'm a person who is kind of hearing, how do I practically live in both right when I'm like? I don't know how to do a goal without the mindset of more, more, more, better, better?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, again, it sort of comes back to a little bit I'm going to maybe borrow, you know, Carol Joach's growth mindset, fixed mindset thing. Right, there's a way in which sometimes, if we get, if we, if we make the goal thing to fix mindset or to and I'll to objectify, let's say yeah. I think that's another reason. By the way, I think you stumbled on something that I hadn't put into words quite before. I think the haters of resolution notice how resolutions can easily tend to objectify us. And aren't we a culture that really has, you know, moved beyond that or at least tried to recognize the ways in which we objectify women, or objectify you know ourselves as workhorses, or you name it.
Speaker 2:And I think there is still a vestige of possible objectification going on If you are not very mindful and clear. And that's where I think the growth mindset of yes, this is an object, this is something that I can objectively work with, but this is fluid as well. And again, this comes back to the inherent paradox of being human too, which is we are both objects and subjects. We are, both have static elements to us and we are dynamic. Right, it's sort of like when you know somebody says you're such a this it might be true, right, there might be aspects of you like, or you might have a certain personality organization that leans towards this. That's true, but it's also part of a constellation of moving parts at the same time, and I think to be able to hold on to the fact that we can both have these static, objective parts and these constantly flowing moving parts, right, as William James says, the stream of consciousness. It's a dynamic creature. That's the beauty of being human.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm going to shift gears a little bit here and talk about something else that I hear a lot about, you know, new Year's resolutions, and it's actually something that I have been talking about on social media and it's also like, even though I'm talking about it right which is smart goals. Okay, so I'm going to like lay this out there. So one thing that comes up a lot in goal setting and psychology, especially as we talk about creating, you know, specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, time sensitive goals, right, smart goals.
Speaker 1:And I guess I'll also say that, even though I spend countless hours talking to people about how to create good, smart goals, like it feels like like one out of 10, michael, I mean it's just.
Speaker 1:It feels like it's so. They're still. It's so hard to write a good goal. How does a person like how do I live in this place of, yes, I'm going to kind of promote and talk about and encourage people to write smart goals, but they still have what you were just describing right? Like we do have to have some fluidity, otherwise it does become a past fail sort of scenario, and I think that's what causes the January 19th thing to happen. Right, People are like if it, you know.
Speaker 2:I saw.
Speaker 1:I'm done, you know. So how do we, you know? First of all, do you, do you also use the smart goal framework? Do you encourage that? Or if you don't, or if you do, how does that play into what we were talking about just a minute ago?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it's cool to do it. I think you know this has been attention with the psychology since the beginning, right, like if this isn't measurable, is it really important and is it really we're talking about and also, are we really making progress on it?
Speaker 1:Right, how would we know?
Speaker 2:How would we know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I do think you know, again, we don't want to go to the other side of like, nah, it doesn't matter. So it's almost like what we in psychology I guess research would say it's you should be qualitative about it and quantitative about it, yeah, and so like, for example I mean, this is just what comes to mind I've never gotten my sort of taxes done early and I'm like all right, let me see. So I was working on like just looking at things, and while I was doing it I was telling the number of sessions I saw like over the year and I was doing all these sort of calculations. But for me it's not like looking at goals just like that. It's looking at like appreciating the qualitative mix of all these interesting stories and all these interesting places of progress, as I thought about the clients and what their stories were and how they emerged, and I really think it's important to not get too fixated on the thing. But then also there is something really healthy, just like fear runner, you want to objectively, you know, get faster.
Speaker 1:Yeah, increase your pay, but like decrease your pace, not increase your.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but and the thing is also like you want to be, and there is something about measuring, something helps us notice it more yeah, like I use like an app, like sometimes to like watch my eating, and what I know learn about it is it's not like it's so much about like gaining or losing weight, so much it's about being a little bit more mindful and noticing. And then it turns out that the side effect is oh OK, cool quantitatively. So again, I think they can be wedded a bit more, and I think sometimes, even in our field, we've gotten a little like KJ, of like wait, but if you're not this, and so I think we should be as equally enamored of process as we are being concrete and specific.
Speaker 1:I love that every question I ask, you're always like it's both.
Speaker 2:It's both. It's both. Yeah, it's pretty much, because creative space happens in both and I answer every question in exactly the same way.
Speaker 1:My students always ask me a question and I'm like, well, or I'll say it depends. It depends or it's both. So what I love about your response and what I want to make sure that I clarify, at least for me and maybe for anybody else it's like you have to have some structure around a good goal, where I mean it has to. It has to have some relevance to you, and maybe you don't have every single SMART part of it, but it has to have some sort of structure to it. But I think what I also hear you saying is sometimes, if we put too much structure on it, that is the part that keeps us from really valuing the whole process of the reason you have the goal in the first place. Right, if the reason you have the goal in the first place is because you want to be better. There are so many things to appreciate along the way beyond just running 10 seconds faster now.
Speaker 2:Completely yeah, completely, and I think you're right that we can do more of both, as you're saying, and I was thinking like, just as you were talking about quantitative, like it was interesting when I worked on writing a book I was surprised that I started to fall in love with the process, but I also had these background kind of sort of expectations for how much I should be producing. Yeah, but what I was doing was I made it flexible. If you're working on the writing in some way over the week, whether it's actually writing words or reading, or even something that's emailing somebody with a question, that all counts. So the process is very, very interconnected with cool. All right, good job, keep on going.
Speaker 2:And so I think I told you this in one of the other episodes. Robert Frost said poetry without rhyme or meter is like playing tennis without a net, and so limits and constraints also propel us to find ingenious ways of solving problems, and so we don't want to. We want to use that as something that can help us, and so structure and specificity is the net on the tennis, but we also want to sometimes not care about hitting into the net, to just enjoy the process of learning our strokes.
Speaker 1:Do you think that this, you know, the process of learning to enjoy it. Do you think that that is one of the pieces that keeps people continually moving past January 19th?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. So it's interesting. I have this colleague, his name is Ruth Gautien and she wrote a book called the Success Factory. It's all about these very big high achievers, like Nobel laureates, olympic medalists, like innovators, and the surprising thing in her book that she finds is that a lot of these people aren't really motivated by the externals, by the status or the power or even the outcome. They fall in love with the process so much and they become so intrinsically motivated that of course they're curious.
Speaker 2:It's like I mean, why wouldn't Spielberg be excited about what I can do next? But then of course, after a while he's like, oh my gosh, I have a whole oof of all these films. And so I mean there was a funny quote I forget who it was, but it was like about a musical composer and who was saying, just as he was finishing up with composing his symphony, he was already getting excited about the next one. And you'd think that's sort of crazy. And that's why, when you look at someone who was like a prolific composer, like a Beethoven or Mozart or Brahms or something like that, you're like how could they have done this?
Speaker 2:Because creativity is the sort of I don't know. I'm gonna say it's the restless flow of imagination coupled with reality in ways that surprise and delight you. Yeah, and you're right. That is sort of the magic that children start with that we lose hold of. But if we unite that children magic, that childhood magic, with adult expertise, that's where we're really cooking and that's also where we feel most fulfilled. We don't feel as close to problems as we feel close to possibilities, but also as to. These are riddles.
Speaker 1:You know. So what I hear you saying is for those folks who might be listening, and you're a little nervous that January 19th is gonna be you. I mean, I hear this conversation being like it's both. You know, for those of you who really like the external motivators, it's okay. Like you can be excited about losing the three pounds on the scale. You can be excited about you know getting accolades from your spouse, about you know making extra money, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1:But if you're struggling to feel like you want to keep going, maybe it's because of that lack of intrinsic motivation for that specific goal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let one feed the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, isn't there an old kind of I don't know if it was a joke or so much as a reality of the difference between heaven and hell is having soup with these long spoons and you can't feed yourself, but heaven is when you're feeding the person next to you. So I think sometimes we think it's a design flaw when it's this is how we're meant to work and structure is meant to feed process and process is meant to feed structure. Again, we can't have one without the other, and that's why it's a sort of funny, it's a funny argument we're having with ourselves. These resolutions are the best. These resolutions suck. You're saying gravity, you stink, gravity, you suck. But also you can't ski without it. Yeah, it's true, can't walk without it, can't do anything without it, can't do anything without it. So I think it's really about how you coordinate these things together and recognize the possible strengths and weaknesses of how they're mobilized.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and interconnected. I mean that's kind of what you have been saying throughout, Like you keep doing this thing with your hands where you're like webbing them together, you know. Yeah, I think it's great. Okay, you and I. I mean, I know that you and I always kind of continue to talk all afternoon. How do people find out about the work you do, about your book, your speaking, any of the work you do? How do people find you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question, I forget. No, you can. So you can find me at my website, which is just Michael Alicecom. I also write a regular blog for psychology today called live life creatively, which is fun and has all sorts of different topics, and then my book which just came out with Norton. It's called therapeutic improvisation and you can find it anywhere books are sold. It's had lovely, lovely endorsements from like Lori Gottlieb and Daniel Pink and Talben Shahar. Like these people I would have never. I'm just like, wow, cool.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. I mean, I'm always like in awe of you for that. That's just incredible, and I would probably have the same like oh my gosh, I can't believe these people read my stuff Like how yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. Thank you for saying yes to being here.
Speaker 2:Thanks for this random, this random act of coolness. This was fantastic.
Speaker 1:It's great. It's great and I you can find anything that I'm doing on makewaresmatterforgoodcom. And until next time, everyone, stay safe and stay well. Michael, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2:Pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you.