Ep 82: Compassionate Care and the Dance with Suffering with Dr. Nick Lee

Have you ever wondered how the simple act of being there for someone could be a beacon of support through their suffering? Join us as Dr. Nick Lee and I unravel this profound question, sharing personal and professional reflections on the transformative power of presence in therapy and relationships. Dr. Lee, with his expertise in counseling psychology and integrated care from Open Door Health Services, brings a wealth of knowledge that enriches our heartfelt discussion.

At the core of our exchange is the recognition of the emotional weight borne by mental health professionals. We candidly discuss the critical need for self-care rituals and the ethical quandaries we navigate when setting boundaries, despite an overwhelming demand for our services. I open up about my own experiences, including coping with the loss of my father, while emphasizing that therapists are not impervious to personal struggles. Our conversation is an open invitation to understand the often overlooked human aspect of providing care and the shared journey of embracing vulnerability.

The episode culminates with an eye-opening discussion on the nature of suffering and how we can foster a healthier relationship with it. Our stories underscore the insight that suffering goes beyond the pain felt—it includes our resistance to it. We offer listeners strategies for building attunement in their relationships and encourage embracing moments of presence, whether in joy or hardship. This is more than just a dialogue; it's an exploration of the courage needed to share and grow through our struggles, together.
 

This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
 
 Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com

If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

All right, welcome back, listener. Thank you for being here. I am your host, dr Beth Tramau. I'm a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the Master's in Mental Health Counseling program, and I focus on making words matter for good, and I'm here with my friend and colleague, dr Nick Lee, to talk about something that you know I've been looking forward to. This conversation, though it's going to be an interesting topic to look forward to for a number of reasons, I think it is. This is something that people have been struggling with for a long, long time, and it feels like it's starting to become kind of more to the surface, and so I am grateful that we're going to get to spend the next little bit of time together. I always enjoy you, nick, and our time together. We go kind of way back for a long, a long number of years, and so I'm glad that you are here today. So, dr Nick Lee, can you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us one fun thing about you?

Speaker 2: 1:14

Sure, yeah, we do go way back. I was thinking about this before we were chatting. I I joined Stillwaters when you were there and I joined in 2007. So that's how far, 16 years, that's how far we go.

Speaker 2: 1:29

So in life, right now I'm an assistant professor of counseling psychology at Ball State in the Department of Counseling Psychology, where I work with doctoral students and master students, folks who are training to be clinicians or go into research, kind of all different ways they can. They can go with that. And then I also do one day a week of clinical practice with Open Door Health Services in Muncie, which is a federally qualified health center, and so we have integrated care of medical care, dental care and then counseling and behavioral health, kind of all working side by side with one another. And so I do that one day a week where I work mostly with individuals who are struggling with a variety of mental health concerns as well as, oftentimes, chronic health issues, chronic pain. I have a background working in couple and family therapy and I also get a chance to do more couple therapy than I thought I would be doing at Open Door, which has been really enjoyable, and so that's always kind of in an area of interest and expertise for me, and so I'm glad I get to keep doing that in a space that I am there.

Speaker 2: 2:41

So that's a little bit about oh, you said a fun thing about me, let's see. So I have been continuously playing the same video game for over 20 years well, not the same game, the same iterations of the video game since I was been in college. So well, over 20 years now. I am a diehard Halo fan and we have all the iterations of Halo in my home. And during the pandemic, when we were all locked down, I had the joy of introducing my daughter to Halo and playing a lot of couch co-op campaigns together, much to my wife's chagrin. But I needed a Halo buddy, and so I have now got my daughter excited about the Halo world of things, and so students are always surprised to learn that I love playing Halo, and they're always asking for my gamer tag information so they can try and find me online, and I've yet to give that out.

Speaker 1: 3:34

So we're not going to start today. No, that's right. Okay, so I don't know anything about Halo. What is like the whole point.

Speaker 2: 3:42

Yeah, so Halo is one of the older first person shooter video games and so kind of like a Call of Duty or like a Goldeneye and so unlike, I guess you could say, humans killing humans, it's humans killing aliens, and so I feel a little bit better about the violence that goes on in the video games. It's kind of an unrealistic situation and so. But started playing back in college with my buddies and I've just kind of continued. We're up to like seven or eight iterations of the game now and I'm a fan for life. I'm going to keep going, a fan for life.

Speaker 1: 4:18

I love it and you're raising the next generation.

Speaker 2: 4:21

I am yeah, and if Microsoft and Xbox is out there listening to this, I'm happy to accept free gifts and do product reviews and anything like that.

Speaker 1: 4:30

So I think a lot of folks from Microsoft are listening into things you learn in therapy. There you go. That's hysterical. I didn't grow up playing a lot of video games, you know. I think we did Mario. I played a little bit of Mario with my brothers, but I was never introduced like that, and so I love that. It's something that you and your daughter can connect with.

Speaker 2: 4:51

It is and it's been fun, and although we, you know, starting back in May, up until maybe a month ago, I took a break from playing Halo, because this past May Zelda Tears of the Kingdom came out, and then it's in the switch, it's the follow up to Zelda Breath of the Wild and my whole family, we're, we like to really get get engaged in the Zelda world and so and I'm one of those people, when I played Breath of the Wild and when I played Tears of the Kingdom, I wouldn't say I'm a do it all, but I'm a do most of it. And so all the side quests, all the shrines, all the puzzles, so it takes me a good four or five months, six months of like, slowly plotting my way through the entire video game and so. But I wrapped that up about about a month, a month and a half ago, and so I've I've come back to Halo now after a detour in the Zelda.

Speaker 1: 5:43

Now, this generation has no idea what we had to endure when we were kids. You couldn't pause the game and continue, right, you know, it was like when you turned Mario off, you died and it was over and you had to start over again and you had three lives and it was it. You had to blow out the thing, the cartridge. Sometimes it wouldn't work, it would be all scattering on the TV code.

Speaker 2: 6:08

On Contra, you weren't going to be able to keep going, and so yeah folks.

Speaker 1: 6:12

Just, you're welcome, generation, you're welcome. Speaking of that, let's talk about suffering. Sure, think about the suffering we endured Trying to get our video games to work, no, okay. So this topic of suffering a couple of months ago you did a talk in the community on burnout and we came together and we were just talking about the suffering that we both tend to walk alongside folks with, that we experience in our own lives, obviously also and one thing that came up and continues to come up for folks who train master students, and anytime you tell someone you're a therapist, inevitably people say oh, that's so great you do that.

Speaker 1: 6:59

I could never do that because I could never let go of the stuff I hear. I could never deal with the emotional toll, and I think what they're saying is I'm not sure I'm great at sitting with people in suffering. Today I want to talk with you a little bit about through that lens of the therapist or the therapist in training or people who are interested in being therapists. Let's talk to them about how we can do that well, or just any thoughts we have around that. And then I want to talk more to the general population after we address some folks in the therapy role because I train master's level students. I know you do supervision with master's level students and I don't remember in my training, anyone really like saying or teaching me explicitly how to sit with people in suffering.

Speaker 1: 7:57

I think we talked a lot about boundaries and self-care, which, by the way, barf not that the way that my mentors taught me that, but just the words boundaries and self-care. It just feels like, oh well, you just have to have a boundary and then it'll be fine. How do we actually sit with people in suffering? So let's just this topic. Nick, what do you think?

Speaker 2: 8:18

When you were first floating this idea, I had a similar reaction to you, although mine was probably a little more I guess, a little harsher. I immediately thought of family members I've interacted with over the years who say things like I don't know how you listen to people's problems all day long, or rather than oh, I'm glad you do that, because I can't do that, and that's much needed. I think in one point in my life she expressed interest in wanting to be a counselor, maybe even back in high school, and I think got some of that feedback from her family of, like you don't want to do that. The implication is it's going to wear on you and it's too hard of an emotional labor there to do that, so you don't want to do that. So I do think there is that messaging out there sometimes. But I agree with you.

Speaker 2: 9:09

I've been thinking in my own, at least. In graduate school I don't think I got real explicit instruction on or preparation for, hey, this is what's going to be like to go into these clinical spaces with people who are maybe in some of the darkest and most difficult places of their life, and this is what it really means to be with them and to help them and to sit with them in those spaces. I feel like that has come after school and just through experience and through peer support and other types of supervision that we just collegially do with each other, that I think I've learned some things along the way.

Speaker 1: 9:48

But I agree with you, I don't think it's something that was always explicitly taught, and so I'm sure there's a variety of reasons for that, but at least at the time when I was doing my initial training, what I've realized in particular about myself over the last five years or so is that I think in the first 15 years of my clinical experience in private practice, doing consultation and training, I've learned some things that I need to do to leave work at work and home at home. So I do some kind of rituals in my car. After I'm done with every client, I make sure I spend five minutes taking some deep breaths and kind of washing the last session away and breathing in for the next session. So I kind of have learned some pieces around client to client, moment to moment. And I'll tell you, nick, the things that have really gotten me into some dark places on my own have been moments where I was standing at this crossroads of hearing my mentor saying you need self-care, you need a boundary, you need to say no, and in my no I leave people in suffering, and so that conundrum for me has been the hardest part of my job in the last five years, like recognizing I have to be the best version of myself, I have to set a boundary, I can't take on more things than I can reasonably do.

Speaker 1: 11:21

But in doing that, nick, I'm saying I have the skill set to see more clients in therapy. You and I both know we could have a wait list of the next 12 years, but if I say no and set a boundary and do self-care, it leaves people suffering and that's a hard thing to just sit in.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Yeah, it's interesting the way you say that. I think I initially get this sort of reaction of yes, it is. And while I think back to years ago, a mentor said to me that your clients existed long before they met you and they'll exist long after meeting you. And going back to your initial question, of raving your comment about oh, I'm glad you do that, I couldn't do that all day long. That sometimes people say to us it's like we train for it. That's why we can do what we do, because we train for it. When I'm sitting with a client who's in a real dark place and they're sharing something with me, it isn't that I'm not touched or impacted by that, but I'm touched and impacted by that in a professional way, different than if my spouse is saying something to me or my daughter or my friend. And I think how that happens is because we train and we learn and we grow in these types of boundaries, in just an understanding of what it means to sit with people. But I think you're right.

Speaker 2: 12:49

There are times, too, where you read the numbers. I read the numbers. You see about one in five people have mental health issues. One in 20 people have serious mental health issues, or literally every county in the state of Indiana is considered a mental health shortage zone. There's not enough mental health providers to meet the need and I think, am I doing the greatest good that I can be doing? Because when I say no to something or when I choose to do something else, I'm shutting the door on something else, and am I doing all that I can to help and support people? I think it also reveals something about me too, and how I think about myself and my level of influence or importance on things. But yeah, I don't feel like there are really good answers to some of these things, unfortunately, and so more fortunately, I guess it depends.

Speaker 1: 13:42

Yeah, I think the power comes in bringing it to light so that it's not something that I experience shame or isolation around that. It's something that we can say makes us human. And I think as therapists, it is an easy trap to fall into to say I must have it all together so that I can help other people. And I've even heard sort of critics of therapy saying well, how can that therapist help someone? They're all over social media doing this or that or they're something, or else therapists are people and we are trained to be really empathetic listeners who walk alongside people in hard times, but it doesn't mean we are immune to our own hard times.

Speaker 2: 14:38

Exactly, yeah, and whether those hard times are a manifestation of hearing the hard things that are coming from our clients or just the hard things that are going on in our own life too. Like, yeah, I absolutely agree with you on that, and I think over the years too. I don't know, I don't know if this has been true for you, but I think what I, early in my career, I used to think. So what I need to do is I need to walk in and I need to have all the right tools, have all the right evidence-based interventions, and I'm going to dose my client with these evidence-based interventions and their suffering is going to be alleviated. There's truth in some of that, but I think what I've actually really, really learned is that you can have all the right evidence-based interventions in the world, but there's something that's so powerful about the presence of another person in the midst of their suffering who is not phased that's not the right and it's not being phased by it, but it's who has developed the tolerance and the skill of sitting with someone and some really dark and ugly things and just being with them, and that opens up so many doors for people to endure their own suffering.

Speaker 2: 15:54

Sometimes, what we're helping people do, I think, is endure what is hard and difficult, and we bear that up with them.

Speaker 2: 16:02

It's not that we're alleviating it and making it go away, in the same way that people do this in my own life. For me too, right, they bear up with me the things that are hard and that I have to suffer through in my own life, and so it's not about making it go away or alleviating it. And so I think, once I've been able to reframe that in my career, I actually feel so much freer, I feel so less like burden and guilt and responsibility that I have to somehow snatch this out of their hands and make it better for them. But really how I make it better is by being with them in a real and a genuine and an authentic way, and I think that gives me a lot of freedom and, I think, a lot of encouragement that what I'm doing makes a difference, and so I couldn't agree more that when I'm talking with trainees I'm saying something very similar, right that I want you to know all the evidence-based interventions that are important.

Speaker 1: 16:56

And it's such a small portion of what real therapy is. Real therapy is a tiny portion of giving you an intervention and a huge portion of just to humans walking through hard things and we are just skilled listeners who can meet you in that tough space and to your point. If we're doing a good job as a therapist or psychologist, we're able to carry the burden of that in the moment with that person as they're going through it. And the image that I got as you were talking about that thing that you've learned of, we're helping to carry their burden a little bit by just meeting them there and not shaming them about it or not making them re-traumatized about it. And the image I got and I'm not even sure I agree, I'm just saying the image I've got.

Speaker 1: 17:55

I'm taking this little piece of this burden that they have gifted to me. It really is an honor the work that we get to do. People tell us their stories and they gift us with part of the burden and I feel like at the end of every session we sort of decide do you want me to give this burden back to you or do you want me to drop the burden on the ground and we're going to keep going? I'm not carrying this burden as your therapist. I'm not going to continue to carry it for you, and that's the power of being able to do this work long term right. But I have this image of sometimes they want it back and sometimes they feel like, no, I can put that little piece of that burden to the side. What do you think about that image, nick?

Speaker 2: 18:38

I agree, because the truth, beth, is that I can't carry it. I don't even know if I need to carry it for them to actually get in. See, I think that's where junior clinicians learning feel this strong, like I got to do something about this and I have to do something about this yesterday and it's a message for the ending of what you're really doing. But no, I really agree with you there. Well, I even think of how some people listening might be familiar with a researcher at the University of Virginia. His name is Dr Jim Cohn and he did kind of these famous fMRI handholding studies, you know, where people underthread of electric shock and these fMRI machines and they were either holding the hand of a stranger or holding the hand of like someone that was like really important and significant to them, like a partner or a sibling or something like that.

Speaker 2: 19:35

Rather than seeing this image of like the threat level in the brain getting really high and then, in the presence of a safe person, it's sort of like deescalating, it was just the opposite is that the brain didn't even register the threat. In the same way, I think just being with people becoming these safe spaces for people, becoming these places where they can come and unburden themselves with very heavy, difficult things at a very like fundamental brain level, like we are helping people bear up those things that are hard to bear up, and that is huge in and of itself and shouldn't be minimized. I get it like you're a fresh master student or you're just getting ready to launch on an internship and you feel a lot of this overwhelming responsibility that like, well, I'll add this layer to it. I don't know if you felt this way, but I remember the first time I really got paid for what I was doing Someone slides that check across, that proverbial check across the table and it's like that adds another layer of responsibility you feel for helping someone make changes in their life and improve their circumstances in whatever way they're seeking your help to do that.

Speaker 2: 20:46

But I also think we have to be clear about what it is we're doing. What is really creating change in these moments around people suffering. So that's what kind of comes to mind for me when you share that. You share that energy.

Speaker 1: 20:59

So I love this and we could have a whole session on that issue of when you get paid and when you have the session where you're like I've got to do and do and do more because they're paying me, or they're paying me out of pocket, or they have a hot deductible, or they don't care, they're not paying me anything, how does that bias play out? We could have that. That's a whole session right there.

Speaker 2: 21:25

That's a whole session.

Speaker 1: 21:26

Okay, but you know what you said, something that I love and I want to come back to you said the reality is I can't carry their burden, and I'm not sure if I should. I think that's brilliant, and I think it also illuminates the fact that it's not our job to save folks in therapy. I'm not saving you. I'm helping you figure out the things you need to do to make your life what you want it to be. Saving is not part of the consent process. Saving is not part of this.

Speaker 1: 21:55

But then I started to think about other relationships, and so, if we can shift a little bit right, so I think there are professional boundaries that we learn around managing suffering of other people, and so then, if I'm sticking with this metaphor of carrying this little piece of the burden and I think about other, either friendships or romantic relationships is it our burden to carry? Then my partner is suffering. Let's just you know, my partner is suffering with this thing. They have laid out part of their suffering on to me. I am with them. I think we are sitting with suffering is still a part of the struggle that we have. I think many folks that I talk to in relationships are like well, I'm just going to fix it for you, and people in suffering don't always want the fix right now, right.

Speaker 2: 22:53

Right? Is that right Like a question, is that?

Speaker 1: 22:55

right, Right.

Speaker 2: 22:57

I mean you're the couple guy I'm the couples guy yeah, so the image I got when you shared that to you was what does it mean? Well, let me back up. So your partner comes to you and they're like sharing about something heavy that's going on in their life, and then you get that like I need to fix this, I need to make this better. My immediate question with couples that I work with is why do you feel like you need to fix this? Where is this coming from? Right, in my experience, has been most of the time. Is that sure there is this proportion of that? That's an empathy based response you know of. Like, someone I care about the most in the world is in pain and, come hell or high water, I want to take that pain away because I don't want this person to be in pain, understandable, absolutely understandable.

Speaker 2: 23:49

I actually feel like, though, a bigger proportion of what's really going on for people in my experience is they are uncomfortable with the pain. They are uncomfortable with their level of not having control over that pain and they haven't made some peace with that. You know it kind of this more philosophical, existential level of like I can't, I can't change this right, unless they're the cause of that, some of that pain. That's completely different, like that's another session. Also, we're doing something different at that point, you know.

Speaker 2: 24:23

But whether it's helping your partner grieve the death of someone that's so significant to them, or they're having a terrible time at work and in their office and dealing with the core, whatever it is, I think there's an element of recognizing that we don't have control over these things, right?

Speaker 2: 24:41

And somehow, at the same time, we simultaneously, like, minimize the value of being present with the people in our lives that are suffering and just being alongside of them in that place. We don't have to change anything, we don't have to fix anything. And again, just coming back to that Jim Cone thing, right, like it's just our presence, where we're lending them our resources, just with our presence, so they can bear through what it is that they're bearing through, and so I think that's huge and important and we dismiss that and we don't recognize that. So all the time when I'm working with couples, I want to understand, like, the underlying motivations and reactions they have. I think when I see it click for people, when they're like I don't have to actually make this better, I just have to be with you and I know how to do that it makes all the difference in the world for someone.

Speaker 1: 25:33

All right, Nick, for the listener who is like what does all that even mean? What does it mean to be present? I am present, I'm saying what can I do to help? What do you need? What can I be? How do you practice this with folks? How do you really help folks settle into this presence idea? You know, I'm sort of like picturing sessions that I've had. I'm picturing moments in my own life where I've had to, like in my mind, coach myself, you know, with my teenagers, with my partner, with my sister, with my family, right Like I've had to coach myself to do some of the things I think you're going to tell us we need to do, Because I think we are just so programmed to be like, okay, I'm sitting here with you, Now give me your hand, Come on over here, I'm going to do it this way. I'm going to how do we sit with another person and not fix it? Like, literally, what are we supposed to do? Or say so?

Speaker 2: 26:31

I'll take the first part of that. Like just sitting with someone before before the inhibition that has to come from. I'm not going to fix this right. Like inhibiting yourself from wanting to go there Because like sitting with someone as soon. I think it assumes that we know how to like be in the present moment, and I actually think that's a big assumption for a lot of us. Yes, it is as in company included, me too, just as guilty as this.

Speaker 1: 26:57

Dang it.

Speaker 2: 26:58

I know right, like what does it really mean to attune to someone in the moment, to set aside distractions, to silence phones, to turn off televisions, to go to a place in your home where the dog isn't all up in your face, like all these kinds of things that we just are so we don't realize or like pulling at us, but they are? We have to know how to attune and we have to be able to recognize when our partner is bidding for us to attune. Sometimes that's also our partner's learning to say to oh, this just happened in my house, like a week ago. Something really stressful was happening for me and I wanted to talk to a wife about it and she was just, she wasn't doing anything wrong. You know, she's just sitting there like, I think, responding to a message on her phone, literally feel like her laptop was open. I clicked the TV off and I looked at her and I said I need to talk to you about something. Would you shut your laptop for a second and put your phone down? And so she shut her laptop, she put her phone down and actually she moved them off and she like turned and she looked at me.

Speaker 2: 28:06

That seems like so trivial, but it's not Her presence right there in that moment, like there were no distractions going on. So one I think we need to learn how to do that. We need to push back on our cultural ADHD and our distractions. We need to also know how to like signal our partners that we need, we need them to tune in, like this is one of those moments where we need their attention. Sometimes we don't need their full attention, right. It's like hey, can you get milk at the grocery store, or whatever. So I think those two things are huge in and of themselves, and so you looked like you were reacting to what I was saying, though about like assuming we make assumptions about our ability to tune.

Speaker 1: 28:46

So I want to make sure I know I think you're spot on, and my facial expressions were like I'm living my life going from literally one thing to the next, just like probably most other people, right? And so this idea of pausing, you know, like attuning isn't a like four second pause. Attuning means I'm committing to you as my partner who is saying you need me now. You know, if I'm being really fair, like, my initial reaction is like how long is this going to take? That's probably saying a lot more about me than the rest of the world needs to hear right now. But as I think about the number of things on my agenda my internal, my external agenda, my calendar, like get the dinner ready and then we've got to get in the car and we've got 15 minutes to get there and we got to, you know I have to fight that initial response of I have time, I do have time for this.

Speaker 1: 29:43

The person, the people who are in front of me coming to me with this, are the most important things, the most important people. To me, nothing else is more important, right? I think we just have to get over that initial reaction of I'm too busy and this is going to take longer than I have, while some issues may take a really long time right, some things we have to really sit down and spend 20, 30, 60, 90 minutes talking through, and a lot of issues may be. Hey, I just need three to six minutes of you hearing what I'm struggling with today and it's not going to resolve. But this moment that I'm feeling right now can feel better for me if I feel you with me.

Speaker 2: 30:27

And I would add two things to that too. Like all that yes, 100% I would add a layer of like. There are many things that couples face that are just not resolvable, and it is a perpetual practice of presence and just these things that there's not going to be consensus on. It's just an opportunity for me to hear my partner and be there with my partner and understand my partner. Right, I would add that layer to it. And then I would also like add the piece we should expect and assume that we are going to not get it right. Right, my partner is going to make a bid for me and my attention and I'm going to miss it and I'm not going to get it right and I'm going to have to come back to it.

Speaker 2: 31:13

And I don't think it's about getting it right every time. I think it's about getting it right enough of the time, and that's a thing you cultivate over time and practice with each other. I don't think you can be overstated that there's more than meets the eye when it comes to just being attuned to one another, because I think as a culture, in some ways we're set up to fail in that and other ways. We just have a lot to learn about what it means to use ourselves, to feel into what the other person is experiencing and kind of run it through ourselves a little bit and be able to join them in that space. And that's true whether I'm in a clinical situation or whether I'm talking to my friends or talking to my daughter or talking to my partner, and I want to really be present with that person in that moment.

Speaker 1: 31:59

You've said this word, attuned, many times. I love this word. Do you have other sort of like practical ideas or advice around how folks can get better at attunement?

Speaker 2: 32:11

Sure, yeah, I think it begins with yourself too, right Outside of the context of a relationship. What does it mean? For I have a pretty regular habit in my work life, for example, that when I've been in this office for a while and I've been really like kind of head down and what it is that I'm doing, that I get up and I go for a walk around campus and I don't take my phone with me and I have like notification silence on my watch and stuff like that. And as I'm doing that, I'm really trying to focus on my five senses. What do I see, what do I hear? Like what do I smell? Like the sun on my face, the cold on my face.

Speaker 2: 32:54

You know, I think we sometimes get to the end of the day and we stop and we crash and we haven't even noticed anything that's happened around us that day.

Speaker 2: 33:05

How can we attune to others if we're not really attuning to what's going on with ourselves and vice versa, right, and so I think it begins with us and it begins with this intentional practice of grounding ourselves in the moment for little periods of time throughout the day, to know what it really means to practice that.

Speaker 2: 33:22

And I also think it means too, with our partners is that we intentionally do this for couples out there, right, like life becomes full, life becomes busy, there's all kinds of stuff, but we have to carve out space to regularly like just focus on our relationships and no distractions getting a meal together, going for a walk together, an evening ritual, a morning ritual, something that we can build and practice that habit and flex that muscle over time. It's kind of like compound interest, right? It's these little like drops into the account that yield big results over the long haul of relationships and we just take them for granted. We just think, ah, that's okay, yeah, it'll be fine and maybe it will. But it could be better, it could be richer by putting those little small investments into it.

Speaker 1: 34:15

I love this because it's much of what I kind of share with folks too that it doesn't take a giant gesture to like make your partner feel more connected to you or better in the marriage or relationship in any way. It's like all of those tiny things that say I see you, I know you, I think about you, I love you, I respect you. I mean any of those things. It may be bring the coffee in the morning. It may be that you pick up your shoes off the floor because you know it bothers them, like it's all of those tiny things that show the attunement even without it being like we're having this deep, intimate moment. That's right. You know the other thing you said that I was like well, that is some radical stuff right there. I really am curious how often do people even leave the room without their phone, right? Much less like leave the building or how?

Speaker 2: 35:07

about go to the bathroom without your phone Can you really, is that a?

Speaker 1: 35:11

thing? It's like your left arm. I mean it's like a third arm.

Speaker 2: 35:15

The news in Instagram will be waiting for you, right Like it really is.

Speaker 1: 35:20

I mean, and I'm guilty of this man, I mean I am so guilty of this. I carry it with me, I leave it and in some of it is like because then I leave it somewhere and I'm like where the heck is my phone? Okay, I'm like ding in my phone from my watch, but it really is like this FOMO right, like I'm afraid I'm going to miss something. And what percentage of my day have I ever had a real emergency? Like even if my kids are calling me, it's usually because they want to know where their sweatshirt is. It's not actually it's an emergency to them, but it is not actually like if I missed that call.

Speaker 1: 35:59

But it's interesting because when you were saying, like I leave my phone, I go take a walk, the instant I had the image and I like kind of put myself in your shoes of like leaving my phone and having freedom without it. It is such a different picture. It's an automatic like, even if you're just picturing this idea in your mind, it's just such a different feel when you don't have it attached to you.

Speaker 2: 36:23

Yeah, and attunement for me. What it means to me, what it connotes to me, is I'm in the current moment, I'm not in the future and I'm not in the past, and there's a lot of intentionality that has to happen around that, and I don't think we walk around being attuned 24 hours a day. That's absolutely impossible. I literally don't think our brains could process that. But I think we have to learn to do that in the moments when we need to do that, it matters, when it matters and in these kind of moments when the people we care about need us to be just present and attuned with them. We have to be able to practice that at other times to build that skill. I think it can't just happen in those moments.

Speaker 1: 37:09

Okay, so I have one last question how do you manage suffering?

Speaker 2: 37:13

Yeah, so the last several years of my life and I'm pretty open with my story too, like for people that know me, and so this isn't a big reveal on the Dr Beth Trinnell podcast or anything like that that I grew up in a pretty rough and dysfunctional home. I had a dad that died by suicide when I was in college had a lot of difficult things kind of happened to me over the years, and so I think as the older I get now you know someone kind of being on the other side of 40. And so I think that confers some level of at least perceived life with them. Yeah, even though I sometimes feel very much like an adolescent at heart. But I think something that I've come to learn is that suffering is more of the norm than it's not. I actually do really believe that life takes more than it gives, but I also think that there's tremendous beauty to be had in what it gives and also what it takes away, and learning to embrace and lean into the suffering that's happening around me and in me and the things that I'm experiencing, like I think that that helps me to kind of practice what kind of some of these buzzwords that we hear, of this notion of radical acceptance. You know of that. I can take my vice grip off that steering wheel and I can sort of lean into those around me, which is a huge part of how I cope with suffering in my own life.

Speaker 2: 38:59

I have come to learn that if I say to myself that suffering is a understandable and almost a predictable part of life, then that actually frees me of this obligation that I have to continue to do, do, do, do, perform, perform, perform, fix, fix, fix, and I can just get on with what it is I'm doing. And that's, I think, in part what I also try to sort of share with my clients and the work that I do with them is that suffering is expected in this life and so we can't always. Sometimes we can change suffering, but we can't always change suffering, but we can change our relationship to suffering, and that's really, I think, how I have coped with it in my own life and what I tried to impart to the clients that I work with too. Lsr.

Speaker 1: 39:50

I love that. Thanks for sharing that.

Speaker 2: 39:53

CB yeah for sure, lsr.

Speaker 1: 39:55

Something I always think about when I'm in sort of a tough place is, you know that like equation of suffering. You know, pain plus resistance equals suffering. And this idea of like enduring pain. I can sit in pain and kind of the longer I try to do, do, do or fix, fix, fix, it's what kind of keeps me in this place of suffering. But I've also had moments where I've like said out loud, like I've just admitted to myself like I'm just suffering and it's okay, I don't have to fix it, I don't have to have the answer, I don't have to know what to do, like it's okay that I can be suffering and I think there's been some freedom for me in that kind of like some of what you were saying about having that freedom, and so I'm grateful for all that you've shared today CB.

Speaker 2: 40:46

Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1: 40:47

LSR. It's been really great and I hope that listeners also found a lot to relate to. And this topic is one that I think we all experience and yet we just don't necessarily talk about it, I think because we don't want to make other people uncomfortable or uncomfortable. I think we don't want to feel uncomfortable ourselves, and maybe what we're suggesting is take a leap of courage, try to talk about it and try to share what you need, like kind of what you said earlier. You know like we have to learn how to tell people what we need. When we're taking that leap of courage, move the distractions, so good, so.

Speaker 2: 41:28

CB yeah, just even thinking about like from 2007, knowing you to 2023, like having this conversation now with you and I sort of growing up professionally in kind of the same track. You know, like I think if we were having this conversation with each other even five years ago or 10 years ago, it would be such a different conversation than it is now, and so we should do it again in another 10 years and see what differences.

Speaker 1: 41:54

CB 10 years when we're 50, something we're going to be like. We had that talk when we were 40.

Speaker 2: 42:01

CB yeah, yeah, we were way off back then.

Speaker 1: 42:05

CB. You're welcome listener, that's right. Cb, that's great. Okay, well, I am glad you said yes. As always, it's always a joy to be with you, and I know listeners got a lot out of today, so thank you for being here and being you.

Speaker 2: 42:19

CB. Yeah, thanks Beth, I appreciate it CB.

Speaker 1: 42:20

All right, listener, until next time. Stay safe and stay well.