Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 95: Unlocking Emotional States with Brain Spotting: A Transformative Journey into Healing and Resilience with Jessica Van der Merwe, LMHC, LPC
Have you ever stumbled upon a therapy that speaks to both the intricacies of the brain and the whispers of the body? That's exactly what brain spotting does, and in our recent conversation with trauma specialist Jessica, we uncovered the depths of this transformative therapy. Jessica, with her brain spotting certification, takes us on a journey beyond the confines of traditional therapies and into a realm where eye positions can unlock emotional states. This episode isn't just a discussion; it's an exploration of the therapy's origins in athlete performance enhancement and its astounding flexibility for various issues beyond trauma.
Picture a therapy session where the client is the captain, steering the ship of healing while the therapist sails alongside, navigating by intuition and the principle of uncertainty. That's the empowering approach of brain spotting, and as Jessica shares her personal experiences with the practice, we unravel the differences from the structured protocols of EMDR. With an on-air demonstration, listeners get a front-row seat to the subtleties of this gentle yet profound method, emphasizing the importance of attunement to individual needs and the discovery of eye positions that resonate with the client's internal experience.
Jessica shares insights on how balancing resources and activation is key to not overwhelming those we help. Our conversation illuminates the empowering process of expanding one's window of tolerance for distressing emotions and the gratifying role of therapists who facilitate such intimate work. Join us for an episode that promises to not only enlighten but also inspire a transformation in your understanding of healing and personal growth.
Connect with Jessica here:
Jessica Van der Merwe, LMHC, LPC http://proteacounselingpnw.com
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
All right, welcome back, listener. I'm glad you're here. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramel. I'm a licensed psychologist and an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the Master's in Mental Health Counseling program, and I'm thrilled today that my guest, jessica, has agreed to come back again to be on the show. So, jessica, thank you for being here. I'm so grateful, and can you go ahead and introduce yourself, pronounce your last name, because that's a fun thing, and tell us one fun thing about you.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, first, thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited to be here and talk about brain spotting today. My name is Jessica. I'm going to pronounce it two ways One, the American way, vandermure, which is how I, the gentle version, and the South African Afrikaans version, fundor, meriva. So that's my fun fact is I'm married to South African. We lived in South Africa for several years before moving to Portland, where I am now, and I very rarely will ever pronounce my name Vandermureva because of the confused looks on people's faces. So yeah, that's me and you're looking at me laughing.
Speaker 1:So it's so funny because I'm over here while you're talking. I'm trying to do my best to listen, but in my mind I keep pronouncing your name Vandermureva, vandermureva.
Speaker 2:Vandermureva.
Speaker 1:I just keep saying it like I can do it, I can, you can.
Speaker 2:If it makes you feel any better. When I first met my husband 20 years ago, I could not pronounce the last name. I couldn't even pronounce his first name for three tries. I was like what's your name again? So don't feel better.
Speaker 1:It is funny because the thing I often say is like I'm always like, okay, just spell that for me. Like I have to like picture it in my mind. But if I pictured your name in my mind, I'm not still sure that it would help my pronunciation.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. That's why it's so confusing. This is going to be a fun podcast. I can't tell we're already off to a great start. Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad. Well, I am licensed mental health therapist in Oregon and in Washington. I have a private practice in Oregon and Portland and I specialize in trauma. I'm a complex trauma specialist and specialist in dissociation and I am certified in brain spotting and that's what we're here to talk about. I talked about trauma-informed stabilization treatment before and now like something a little different today, so I'm excited to let people know what the heck brain spotting is.
Speaker 1:I am too, because I haven't had anyone on here to talk about this specifically. You know, I've had several guests where you know we're talking about trauma and have had somebody who has come to talk about EMDR and someone for accelerated resolution therapy, and so I think we've started really spending time talking about these kind of additional ways to do therapy. Do you kind of consider it like an add-on to your training in terms of your traditional graduate school training? Would you consider it an add-on or do you consider it something else?
Speaker 2:An add-on? I don't know about that. I consider it a if you mean add-on, as in like a way to you can integrate a lot of different ways of doing things. Sure, I think there's that. It is that in a lot of ways. But it's more than an add-on. It actually is a primary modality I use because of how effective it is and how the body is involved in it, so it's just so natural in a lot of ways. So it's.
Speaker 2:I'll just jump in, maybe, and explain what brain spotting is, because when I heard about brain spotting, I was like that sounds weird and I don't even know what you're talking about. Yeah, so you may feel that way when you first hear this, but it is a brain and body-based approach to healing by accessing brain spots, which are essentially eye positions that are associated with a feeling state and activation of some kind around whatever the client wants to process. And it was developed in 2003 by David Grand, who is an EMDR therapist at the time and I now, you know, moved into brain spotting, but he was actually working with an athlete, a 16-year-old figure skater, doing bilateral movements. So from with EMDR, they're moving from one side to another and she was trying to work through a block to a triple axel and she was moving from side to side, he noticed what he describes as an eye wobble. So there was a moment where her eyes sort of shifted and he, instead of keeping on moving, he stayed at that position. And as he stayed at that position, with the pointer in front of her and she's on that pointer and she's noticing what's happening inside, she was able to access more memories and experiences that ended up resolving the block to the triple axel.
Speaker 2:From there, able to complete the triple axel and move forward with that, and it was a lot of the things related to it became more family-oriented, relational wounds and things like that. You wouldn't expect to be connected to something like a triple axel or performance right, but this actually was developed out of from a performance perspective for athletes and like specifically this from here, athletes and creative people, things like that, performers. So this is not a modality. You only have to have trauma for it. You can use anything, which is awesome, and I'm just going to sip of water because I'm getting excited.
Speaker 1:I can feel your energy. I mean, I just love that you're excited and I love that actually, your answer to my first question around it being sort of like this is sort of a thing that I'm going to pull in for this particular moment. But what you're saying is like it's really integral to so much of the work, not just like, oh, this person had significant childhood abuse and now this is when I pull this out it's like this can be for anyone who's experienced trauma or any other sort of kind of stuckness.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, absolutely yeah, and so it's essentially is a way we're doing therapy very differently when we think of using brain spotting. So, like I said, we're, we're finding, let's say, if there's a topic like with this athlete, like a block to something like the, the YPS, or something like a professional athlete even, can you know be using this, you find a spot that's activated and that feels like oh, I can feel a sensation in my body or around me. Some people don't have sensation in their body, that's okay, but they might feel more intensity or emotionally or a thought that comes up. So we're finding an active spot. And then we're finding also what I find very important to work, especially when working with complex issues, I am always finding a resource spot too. So where that thing that we're working on is less activated in the body or in the mind, it feels more calm and we're grounding in our bodies that way too. Or we're grounding to the, our senses around us and we're using that too. So from there we are, all we're doing is having a client stay on one spot and the best thing about this and maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but since I'm right here, I think that's right yeah, if we're sitting there and we're like, okay, we're going to process this issue you have with your dad, for instance, we're finding a spot where I feel sadness or I feel anger or whatever. We're finding that spot and that's active. We're finding a spot that's resourced. I'm just having a client stay on that, whatever spot they choose. This is a very much client driven experience. I'm going to get into that a little bit more too, because I think that's really important to have clients know, like you're in the driver's seat of the pace, of how this goes. There's nothing that I'm going to be doing to you.
Speaker 2:This is very much a noticing of what's happening moment to moment. We're noticing with what we call a dual attunement model, when a client is looking and noticing themselves and how they feel. We're noticing body sensations. We're noticing emotion. We're noticing the thoughts and the memories that are coming up. I'm attuning to them as well and noticing the small inflections of what's happening inside. If I don't hear from them for a while because sometimes people process quietly I'll ask what are you noticing? They'll take a minute for their prefrontal cortex to get online and go. I'm noticing, I'm feeling this or this memory is coming up. All we're doing is moving forward with a focused mindfulness process. All that means is a noticing of moment to moment in the here and now. It's very experiential that way, allowing for a stress cycle to complete itself in the nervous system, if that makes sense, and I can dive into that a little bit more too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love this. You're saying we're going to find a spot. Take me back to that moment of how do you find a spot. What does that mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. It makes me want to go back a little bit more, yeah great we talked about.
Speaker 2:What's the difference between EMDR and brain spotting? Yeah, that's good. Let's go there Talk about that for a second, because brain spotting came from EMDR. It's newer in the last couple of decades, but EMDR, originally developed by Francine Shapiro, was originally developed for a single incident traumas. Yeah, okay, it's very effective. Of course, there's so much research out there. It's wonderful. Great modality, absolutely fantastic. It is more protocol driven. It is more manual. Okay, there are very few set steps that the clinician needs to be following. It can feel a little rigid in that. Sure, in the way that it's done. Yeah, brain spotting, by contrast, is much more intuitive. It's much more fluid. It is not protocol driven or manualized. We work with what's called set-ups. The question of how do we find our spot Yep, we're looking at how do we set that up. There's a lot of different ways we can do that. That I won't get into now because that would be dragging this whole thing down.
Speaker 1:But that's like hours of training, hours of training, yeah.
Speaker 2:Hours of days, yeah, but the clinician is taking more of an intuitive approach to identifying and making a clinical judgment about what best setup is going to be for this client and this issue. Okay. That's why, when I say okay, I use what's called double spotting. I almost always will have a double spot, even if a person says I'm going to stay in one spot, that's fine, I just want to know we have another one? Yeah, just to get you to get flooded. Because these things, like with EMDR, can be very overwhelming for a lot of people, especially with a lot of complex issues or complex trauma. And even if it's a single event, trauma can feel really overwhelming and needs to be done. There's a reason. There's a protocol there, right, because it's very effective, but it can feel very overwhelming.
Speaker 2:Sure, brain spotting is some people have described it as more of a gentler experience and approach, the client being more in that driver's seat and what we use this phrase called being in the tail of the comet as a clinician, meaning just following the experience with our client. We're following and noticing, we're attuning to it. We're not making anything happen, we are not forcing anything to happen. This brings me to the thought of another principle that's used is the principle of uncertainty, because we do not know where things will go and we can't predict that or project that, because each person's mind is so complex and infinite in their connections and experiences. We can't know. So, going back to what you're saying, I feel like I might be getting in the weeds here. No, it's great. Okay, well, so I'll demonstrate. Maybe it'd be like a way to kind of demonstrate how do we find that spot? Yeah, can I put you on the spot? Totally Okay, it's great, I'm ready. I'm ready for all your students to listen to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, All the people who are listening are just like yeah, do it. Let Beth do it.
Speaker 2:So I would have you think of something right now that is not too overwhelming, since we're on a podcast. We're not going to process, we're just going to find some different spots and see how you respond to it. So great, we don't know what's going to happen. We're going to find out If there's something that feels maybe mildly activating to you or maybe bothers you or anything at all, and anything you feel comfortable sharing. Yep, on this podcast, do you have something in mind? Yep, I already do. Okay.
Speaker 1:Do you mind sharing what that thing is? Yeah, so my teenage daughter just got her license and I have for a long time considered myself to be kind of fully grounded as a middle child in my family of origin and so I tend to sort of live in this sort of pretty even keel kind of place. And when she got her permit and I had to like try to teach her how to drive, it brought up all of these things of fear and anxiety and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, as you're talking about this, are you noticing fear or anxiety? Come up for you and your body.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I can definitely even just thinking about it, when you were sort of like hey, do you have a thing? And I'm like, I think I could feel it like in the sort of upper part of my like stomach and like kind of lower part of my chest a little bit.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I'm going to have you notice that feeling and have you start by looking over to your right side, just at eye level you can turn your head to if that feels okay, can look over. And all I'm going to ask you here is noticing that feeling in the chest, little anxiety and fear. We're just going to see where that intensity is, on a zero to a 10, and 10 being the strongest.
Speaker 1:Just notice where that is, it's probably a five, maybe Okay.
Speaker 2:And now I'm going to have you look straight ahead. Okay, so you can look either behind me and my where I am in the room, or in your own environment, and just find a spot at eye level, noticing the feeling, thinking of your daughter driving, and notice here, on a zero to 10, how intense that feels it's probably a four, okay. And now going to the other side of the room, finding a spot at eye level and notice, okay, this is so weird y'all.
Speaker 1:I'm going to keep going but I'm trying not to like share my experience over the year. But okay, I'm going, I'm still going. It was weird, it was like a different experience, like from the left to the middle and to the right, it was a different experience. Okay, I'm just saying for the people who are listening and you're like that's not real, I'm telling you it felt real. Okay, to the left, to the left.
Speaker 2:I'm there, I'm noticing it feels different, okay, so stay with that, noticing eye level and just tuning into the feeling. Notice how strong that is zero to 10. Yeah, it feels like a three, okay. And then have you stay over on that side for a moment and, going vertically, you can go slowly upward and notice if that feeling increases or decreases.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it increases if I go up.
Speaker 2:And then going to middle and to going downward toward the floor.
Speaker 1:Maybe slightly less when I'm looking down, slightly less yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, great, okay. And then you're at all your resource spot where it's a less intensity. Okay, and from here I would have you find a place in your body you feel grounded, neutral or calm, and so you're looking at that spot and you would find that place and let me know where you find it. If you need help, let me know too.
Speaker 1:This is going to be weird, but it feels like it's my face Great.
Speaker 2:And then you're at, people say all kinds of things Okay, okay, I'm loving this right now for you. You're noticing, you're like and you're so unique. I would have never known your face was your grounded neutral spot. Yeah, yeah, how could I have known that I?
Speaker 1:don't know and how could I have Right. I love I wrote down the word uncertainty because when you were describing it earlier in this whole sense, like, I think there is this fear, certainly for me and probably for a lot of us, when, when you're sort of like, yeah, well, this has the principle of uncertainty, I think there are a lot of clinicians that are like, well, I'm not sure I like that. Oh yeah, you know like, but I think the reason like even as we're right.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to get back into, like, the other mode here. Yeah, just a second, but I think I think the power of what is happening is what you just said, and what I just said is what we're talking about. Right, that principle of uncertainty that you brought up is that neither of us could have said. It's my face.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, like clearly it's your face. No, we don't know, but you were attuned and you noticed. And just take a minute, since you're here, to go back to that other side of the room spot, the higher spot, the higher spot. Just notice the feeling Okay, and then go to your resource spot and notice the shift.
Speaker 1:That is strange, that is real, that is real and this is strange. So I have to tell you. I have to admit this right now. I had a good friend of mine was going through EMDR training and I was having a lot of fear around flying after a really bad flight experience and she was kind of learning how to do EMDR and it's ethical to practice EMDR on your friends as you're trying to kind of learn this technique. I remember feeling the same way that, like when I was doing the EMDR, I remember being like my body really does feel different as you're going through the protocol and even this like as you're going through this. Though the shift may be small, it is definitely a shift.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's pretty wild. I love that you were able to demonstrate that right there, here and now. Experience of like this is felt and there's reasons for that. We're accessing different resources in our body and you know we think about how the fear is. Whatever might be coming up for you is stored in your midbrain right and you're accessing that when your eye position is at that spot and you're also accessing that prefrontal cortex of ourselves. Here we're not just activated and flooded right, we're also doing the noticing, and that's what's missing when we're flooded is the moment, and also integrating the resourcing and having that integration through midline of our brain and body.
Speaker 2:So it is, it's really powerful and what I would say, like if we were to continue a session, then I would invite you to say you can start at either spot, either spot will be fine. Yeah, you don't have to go to the deep end of the pool to get the processing done. Yeah, okay. And if you feel comfortable, and that is directed by your internal like self, your wisdom, your, your intuition, and I'm trusting that, we're trusting that process and I'm also attuning to you going okay, this might be really high for you over here and you're feeling really stuck or you're feeling really overwhelmed. We're going to come back to resource and just notice that and over time you're going to see. In one session you can see a dramatic shift from the activation way down and it might bring up other things, but the fear center around it is not the same and that's what's so cool about it.
Speaker 1:I mean I, yeah, I mean I can attest to that experience for sure, like the one my friend came and practiced with me one time and I had a noticeable shift and and even in the middle of it to what you're saying like my experience was that the fear had kind of shifted a little bit, but it was almost like that shift then allowed that open space to do other pieces of the work, and so it. It's really fascinating for me to think about this from kind of both the client and the therapist perspective because, as I was kind of becoming distracted as the client slash brain of a therapist to be like this is so weird. You know, I have to imagine that you have clients who, also in the middle of it, like is this really happening?
Speaker 1:You know, and so how do you like help clients understand what this experience is like? I guess it does come back to like just having trust with the client, that they can like just sort of trust the process.
Speaker 2:Mm hmm, oh, it's it. Well, when you said this is so weird I hear that a lot. Yeah, I bet you do, and I said it myself. Whoa, why is it different? You're like that's just how the brain and body work. Yeah, honestly, for the first time for a lot of people, the first time they can trust their bodies and that's what I love about it is like in the moment they're learning, they can trust their body and they can trust their emotions and their process and knowing it's like oh, I see, I can, I can ride this wave and I can come to some sort of resolve or I can be okay in it.
Speaker 2:So you asked, like, how do you kind of like, prepare your clients for like this experience? I try my best and I basically say, basically, what we're doing is I'm going to be sitting back? I'm not. This is not talk therapy. I'm going to be noticing with you. You can talk as much or as little as you want. If I don't hear from you, I'm going to ask you from time to time what are you noticing? What are you noticing, mm? Hmm, and we'll go from there, but you decide how you want to do it.
Speaker 2:All we're doing is noticing, moment to moment, the thoughts that are coming up. Especially when you're new at this, you feel like the classic is I'm doing it wrong. Yeah, we aren't used to just being with our thoughts and whatever comes up without filtering them. And this is a way for our brain to kind of open up space, to go beyond the filter to say like, where does it go and can we be curious with that? Can we notice it with curiosity and non judgment, or at least try to know and say I don't know why this is coming up, but I'm noticing this memory and I would say, notice that, how does that feel? And notice how this feels familiar to you. And it's like accessing this, especially if it's a body, memory or feeling in the body like how does that feel familiar? And just to see like their brain goes, like we're going to go someplace, and it takes them to another memory, another experience that's more rooted in some other thing. So we're trusting that it's going to take you where you need to go.
Speaker 2:It takes time to practice that too for some people, especially you mentioned clinicians don't like the principle of uncertainty, but how they're due clients and because that is very frightening and vulnerable for a lot of people. If you're a trauma, survivor 100%. It's like what are you? What are you trying to do to me? Don't put me in the deep end. Like you know, it's terrifying for some people. That's why we're like we're just going to only resource, we're not going to make you do anything else, and just like spend five minutes there and see how that feels, knowing you can stop at any time, like they get to decide, and as they know that, like okay, I'm not trapped in this, I have choice, I have agency, then they're more curious about it and they're more able to open up to experience and trust their process. It's really that's really powerful, does that?
Speaker 1:answer the question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:I can absolutely see that being true for clients, right, that the fear is I won't be able to survive the wave. You know, we can sit with the wave and we can feel empowered by like realizing I just don't have to be afraid of it. You know, I think that that's the so many of my clients and even in my own life oh gosh, I don't want to think about it, I don't want to face it, it's just too much for me to do, and then you just ignore what your body is telling you. And so I think what I love about even just the like two minute experience that we just had was that it reminds us that attunement to what my brain and body are doing is sort of the first part that I have control of. Right, I think we have this illusion that I can't control things and so I'm just afraid of them, but really it really empowers you to be like oh, this attunement actually gives me more empowerment, not less.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes it does. As you're talking about the wave, I'm thinking of a quote that came up. I think Tara Brock said it recently on a podcast. I don't know if it's her quote or someone else's, but she is.
Speaker 2:If you don't know Tara Brock, she's the developer of radical acceptance therapy, reign and mindfulness process, like integrating Buddhism into Western psychology. And she said if you are the ocean, you won't fear the waves. And that just resonated so much with me and this process, and beyond just the process of brain spotting or any bit of life in itself, if I am the ocean, I don't need to fear the waves. Sometimes we do, and of course we do because it is overwhelming sometimes. Yeah, it's an important distinction to make that we can start trusting the waves. Yeah, a process of building trust in your nervous system is also not, like I said, plunking someone down into an activation spot. Yeah, good luck.
Speaker 2:I've been there and I will say that my very first full disclosure for those that don't know this. I do share this with clients because I want them to know. I understand In my first training we were trained at activation spots first and I have a lot of complex trauma. That's not a secret for my clients why I specialize in the area, and I got so flooded. I was so overwhelmed that the person that was training with me another fellow therapist that's just in practicum it's like I think I need to get someone and we need help, and I was like, oh gosh, now I'm too much for them too. It was just like all those messages, all the things yeah, and also I was like how can this?
Speaker 2:I can't trust that. This is awful, that was too much. And I was so grateful for my brain spotting consultant that trained I went through certification with, was actually there at the time and helped me to find resourcing and to move between resource and activation at the pace that I needed. And I did with, you know, when it felt too much, going back to know you don't have to be in the tsunami. Yeah, and I was like how can I be with the ripples of the shore and let that be there and then go? Can I feel that and come back? Can I feel that intensity and then come back to the ripples and movement between? That is the resolution it isn't staying in the flood. So that's just also a reminder to all of us of like it's okay if it's too much. We don't want that. That's unhelpful to you.
Speaker 2:So, whatever comes up, we're like oh, this is why I always find we're going to find a resource and I always say at any point you can stop or just look to me and know I'm right here, like we're not going to let anything go too much, too far, too soon. None of that. We're not playing that game. That is the container of safety that a clinician can provide. Okay, so another part of what we bring in and EMDR uses as well as bilateral stimulation music, and I love bilateral stimulation music. I love it. I think I give it to all my clients. Here's my playlist. Put it on throughout the day, use it as much as you need. Please look it up. If someone's listening to this and saying, what is that? It's music that moves from one side of one ear to the other ear. You do need headphones for it to get the desired effect. But what we know is if we're activated and our limbic system is like lit up and we're flooded or overwhelmed, when we have the stimulation from one side to the other, that crossing of the midbrain and that movement is regulating to our nervous system. So that's why tapping and different things are effective, why bilateral movement with the eyes is effective, why, you noticed, on one side is more active than the other side and we're just bringing integration.
Speaker 2:So a couple of weeks ago, I am in the dentist chair, I have to get some dental work done that I'm not super excited about, and they have to put like a shot in my mouth, whatever. I'm like I'm fine. I'm sitting in the chair feeling like it's fine, it's whatever. But something in my I've suffered from panic attacks throughout my life Something clicked in my nervous system when that when there was a little too much time with the shot or something, and panic attack just went off.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh man, here we go, I'm hyperventilating, the tears are streaming. It's like, here we are again in public having a panic attack and I'm like, okay, how do I? I'm going to try to calm myself down. This is okay. But I then remembered I have my music, got my bilateral going and I asked the dentist assistant or whoever was there, like, do you have a pen? Because this is another form of brain spotting is movement from close to far. So I there's this little tool I just started using oh my close to far while I have the bilateral moving, and in five minutes I was completely calm and I just was like this is so cool.
Speaker 1:Like yes.
Speaker 2:Like I love that, but this tool is so useful and I just I'm so excited to be able to share with more people that maybe don't know about it and are struggling. I mean, like, the traditional ways of grounding or talk therapy are just not really working for me and I need a little bit more or something different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something different too.
Speaker 2:This is a great modality to to seek out and to see if it's working. It will work for you and know like, yes, you can have resolution and you can have integration of these feeling states and start to feel more grounded and safe in your body. So, yeah, I just wanted to share that I feel like I also have been just going full steam ahead with this. I love it.
Speaker 1:It's been great, I mean. I think for me it has been just so educational in many ways but also just sort of differentiating, yeah, between EMDR and brain spotting. But what I really actually appreciate the most is how, you know, you and I kind of chatted before we started and you really wanted to make it grounding for, like in like kind of personable and relatable to somebody who may have never heard of brain spotting or maybe is just new to the trauma world. And you know, and I think you did this and even kind of thinking about this metaphor of the wave. You know something that I have talked with clients about when we're coming to the edge of trying something new, like if a person is like I might want to try this brain spotting thing, you know, and one of the things that I often said to people was the waves come now, whether you like it or not. That's so true.
Speaker 1:The beauty of learning these techniques and whether it's brain spotting or you find another technique that works for you. The beauty is that when you can learn to sort of tolerate and then kind of manage the way the waves are coming or impacting you, that's when the real power comes. That's when the fear and anxiety lesson, because so much of our fear is literally, I'm going to drown in the waves. Yeah, because I know the waves are coming. I've experienced the waves every day. I experienced them 10 times a day. I experienced them as soon as I wake up, before I go to bed, and that's what I love. That's what I love about this conversation that you have been able to sort of say and then show this is how the wave begins to feel more like we're Moana. You know, I begin to like spread the waves and manage the waves and love the waves, instead of just always being terrified of them.
Speaker 2:The image that I'm getting as you're talking is, instead of drowning, you float. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we just are. You're floating with them and not fighting them. It is very much like when we are in processing too. I do describe it. It's like a wave that comes up, it peaks and you think you can't handle it, but then it goes down and once it's all about expanding our window of tolerance for that, yeah, I can with that and move with that, breathe through that, and then it's going to come down and it will end. It's really powerful.
Speaker 2:So I just see, like the floating on top and just letting it come, letting it pass, and also understanding the like why things are connected, the way they are inside of you, like, oh, you know, I never knew, like my face was a grounded spot, but also it's oh, wow, this thing that I would have never connected to, why I feel the way I do, is coming up and this is something I didn't resolve way, way, way back when. That I can be with right now and that's what's so incredibly powerful and empowering. Yeah, and it's just so. It's such a privilege to be witness to as a therapist and why I love it. I'm passionate about it and I feel like it's been the thing that's truly helped me resolve so much of my stuff and my experience, so it's just a gift to be able to share it today. So thank you, beth.
Speaker 1:I mean it's incredible. I mean I couldn't agree with you more that, like the work that we get to do with clients is just such a gift. I mean I try to be really intentional about telling clients that you know, like that I am just grateful to walk alongside them, to be on this journey with them. But I just love talking to other therapists who really do just love the work. You know, just love people and love the work, and I love that you're passionate about this. But more than that, I love that you're just passionate about finding the way to help people be better. Mm.
Speaker 2:Thank you. You said it there. I feel again very grateful for it and every day I walk in and say thank you that I'm here and I get to do this. It is a privilege. It's such a privilege to be in sacred spaces what I consider sacred spaces with clients when they're doing some of this most profound and intimate kind of work. Oh, it's amazing. I know I'm getting chills.
Speaker 1:We're just like we're ending and I'm like getting chills. Still, you know it's like this is it's wild, but okay. So do you have a place where people can find you or follow you or just kind of learn more about you or brain spotting?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, brain spotting you can go to brainspottingcom. It's an easy one to remember, yeah, and a lot of information and research there for therapists that are looking to get trained. That's where you'll find the trainings and offerings, which is fantastic. I am not an Instagram therapist, and so you can find me on my website, which is protea-counseling-pnw-pacific-northwestcom. Protea, being again coming back to South Africa, is the South African flower, and it's resembles, or it signifies, resilience, daring, courage and transformation. So it was just very meaningful to me, and it's why protea is the name of my business, and so you can find me there, I love it and I'll link.
Speaker 1:I'll link to all of that in the description, but thank you for coming back to share about this. I'm just so intrigued and encouraged and my face feels like a good grounding place.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love it. Thank you so much, beth. No, no thing, it's so funny I love it.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so good. Okay, well, thanks for being here. Thanks for listening, dear listener. Until next time, stay safe and stay well, jessica. Thank you, thank you.
