Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 106: Embracing Neurodiversity in Relationships: Understanding and Navigating the Unique Dynamics of ADHD and Autism with Lianna Purjes
Discover the hidden dynamics of neurodivergence in relationships as licensed clinical social worker, Lianna Purjes, uncovers the profound impact of ADHD and autism on how we connect and communicate with those closest to us. Our conversation isn't your usual relationship talk; it's an eye-opening exploration of brain diversity that challenges the norms and celebrates every individual's unique contribution to human connection. Lianna's expertise shines as we tackle the question: Can the distinct ways neurodivergent individuals perceive the world be seen as superpowers rather than hurdles?
Communication can be a minefield, but Lianna and I share personal anecdotes and strategies to help you navigate it with grace and understanding. We delve into the power of non-verbal cues and the art of establishing communication ground rules that honor the intentions and emotional languages of everyone involved. By tuning into these subtle details and being explicit in our needs, we can prevent small misunderstandings from escalating and cultivate deeper intimacy within our relationships. Our discussion offers a roadmap to turning conflict into connection by fostering a shared language that resonates with both neurotypical and neurodivergent partners.
Finally, we turn the spotlight on the delicate dance of emotional support within neurodivergent relationships, where mismatched needs can often lead to frustration. Learn how to co-regulate and explicitly communicate your emotional needs with exercises designed to help articulate and understand the emotional landscape within your partnership. As we break down the dynamics between empathy and problem-solving, you'll gain actionable advice that promises to strengthen your relationship's foundation and celebrate the diversity of human connection. So, tune in for a dialogue that is as transformative as it is enlightening, and equip yourself with the tools to foster a more understanding and nurturing bond with your partner.
To learn more about Lianna and her work, visit: Relationship Therapy for Individuals & Couples in CO, AZ, & FL (fuzzysockstherapy.com)
Call: 720.378.8454 // Email: Lianna@fuzzysockstherapy.com
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists and psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
All right, welcome back, listener. I'm your host, D Beth Trammell, and this is Things you Learn in Therapy. I am an associate professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I also the director of the Master's in mental health counseling program there, and I'm really excited about this topic today, mostly because I don't do a lot of work in couples relationships, but I also just love any kind of discussion that we can have that makes us better in any of our relationships, that gives us better understanding of people around us, and so I'm very, very happy that Liana has decided to come back on the show, and I love the range of topics that you and I have been able to talk about together. I mean, I love when people are very kind of niche expertise focused, but I also love people like you who are like I want to talk about kind of a broad range of things, and I'm just so excited. So, liana, I'm so glad you're here. Can you introduce yourself to listeners and then tell us one fun thing about you?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, thanks so much for having me back. Yeah, so my name is Lianna Purjis, I'm a licensed clinical social worker in Colorado and starting a coaching program now as well. And one fun thing about me I don't know how fun this is, but I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is you, like you mentioned how you and I can talk about all these broad topics, and actually I think that's partially due to the fact that I have ADHD and I get bored if I'm only focusing on one thing, so I need to have, like, different things that I can think about and learn about.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I am undiagnosed but I have actually thought for a long time that I probably have at least a flavor of ADHD and I have kind of the same thing where it's like I kind of need a variety of interests to keep me kind of focused and then I can also get that like hyper focus. That comes where my husband will sometimes be like why are you obsessed with buying a camper right now? I don't know, I just it's the only thing I can think about. It's like this strange thing that's happening. But actually this topic that we're going to talk about today might actually help me and hopefully help a lot of listeners.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:So thank you for sharing that about you and I love that we are getting ready to talk about how neurodivergence kind of shows up in relationships. And so when we say this word kind of neurodivergent, I think it's kind of shows up in relationships, and so when we say this word kind of neurodivergent, I think it's kind of growing in kind of mainstream. I don't know if popularity is the right word, but I think it's becoming more well known in kind of the mainstream. But I'm wondering if there are some misunderstandings around this term neurodivergence or a person who considers themselves to be neurodivergent. So can you just give us an understanding of what this term kind of means, and that way we can have at least kind of a working understanding as we talk the rest of this episode.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so neurodivergence is a fairly new ish term, basically to describe anyone who has some kind of difference in brain wiring or brain functioning. So you know, I'd say it can include a bunch of different things, but I'd say most well-known things that it includes would be like autism and ADHD are probably the two big ones that people talk about the most.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, and so it's a way that the wiring and the thought process sometimes goes, and I think you, we were we were kind of chatting about this before we started recording that some people see it in a variety of ways. They see it as a disability, and then other people see it as a superpower, and I think for you and I it's okay. However you want to see it, would you say that's true for you too? Yeah, for sure.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, definitely. I think this is fairly new in the psychology world and, like you said, in our mainstream culture too. So I think in a lot of ways, as a species, we're still trying to figure it out right, we're still learning every day.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:And there is still so much about the human brain we don't know. So I'm sure this will continue to evolve and develop over time. But yeah, right now I'd say, you know, yeah, some people will say things like ADHD is my superpower, and other people will say, no, this sucks, this makes my life really difficult in X, y, z ways, and so I think it. You know, I tell people, look, you define it for yourself. However, it feels good for you in that moment, and if that changes over time, that's okay too.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Absolutely so it is. This is a way that some folks feel empowered to kind of categorize the way that their brain processes, and so, whether that's on a Tuesday, they feel like this is the worst thing on the planet to have happened to my body right now, and then other days or other seasons of life. It does feel like a really important strength of how their brain and their kind of thought processes work.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, and I think the whole point behind the idea of having this term of neurodivergence is to move away from like pathologizing things like ADHD or autism, you know. So moving it's not like you have the flu or you have cancer or you have, you know, like it's not a disease in that way, Even though it is listed in the DSM, as you know, as a disorder. The idea is just that your brain is wired a little bit differently, so that means you experience the world differently.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I had a mentor once talk about neurodivergence as not a deficiency within the person, but a sort of an imbalance in the way that the world currently operates to allow for differences to exist. I don't fit in in this workplace. I'm deficient, it's like. Well, actually, maybe the workplace just needs to make some changes to be able to welcome folks who think in all sorts of different ways. And so what are the changes that can be made in the workplace that would better support a whole variety of different ways of the brain working?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, definitely, and I think you know, one of the really positive things about neurodivergence in general is just that it's great that we have people who think differently and have different skill sets and strengths and things like that. Right, Because not every career is for every person and that's OK. We need in our society. We need the artists and we need the doctors and we need the math people and the coding people and all these things.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:This is obviously something that comes up in relationships, and so one of the things that we want to spend some time talking about today is how does this show up and what can we? What can we learn about that in your practice? What have you been learning about neurodivergence and relationships?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Quite a bit, actually, and even about my own relationship. But yeah, I mean, you know, I started noticing a pattern, maybe two, three years ago, where I had a lot of couples coming to me who had tried couples therapy before with one or a few other therapists and something didn't quite click. Where you know, they got some tools and something, you know, some things resolved and so it wasn't all bad. It was just that there was something missing, and a lot of the time what they noticed was missing was that the other therapists weren't really able to help them get on the same page. It was, it was like they were speaking two completely different languages, they were not connecting at all and, you know, whatever they intended to say was misinterpreted and it was just they were like two ships passing each other in the night like no, no connection at all.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Um, and you know, having done a lot of this work with these couples, after a while I started seeing that it was probably because one partner was neurotypical and one was neurodivergent, and most often what I was seeing was, you know, adhd or autism, but obviously it can be other things too, and I think and it really just came down to really not having a common language, even though they both spoke English, still not having a common relational language, and that was super key to being able to get them to. I mean, first of all understand each other to begin with, and also then to work on connection and intimacy.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Well, okay, so you're right here. I'm already locked in right, because I obviously my approach is to make words matter. That's my whole philosophy, and so I think what I hear you saying is like creating this common relational language is is one of the key things that we have to recognize, is so critical that when you have people whose brains are wired differently, the literal way they hear words and then how they react to those words matters a lot, right, and so I think about the number of arguments that couples have, or the number of conflicts that they have, and how communication is at the forefront of so many of those things, and so, as you have been learning about helping couples create this common relational language, I have to imagine that it starts with first acknowledging hey, I don't think we're speaking the same language.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, definitely there has to be that understanding and I think also, like in a lot of couples therapy work, there has to be an agreement of assuming best intentions, you know, giving your partner the benefit of the doubt, because if we're speaking from an angry place and saying, no, that's not what you intended, or something like that, it's not going to go anywhere. So we have to have, like, establish, you know, some of those baseline rules. But yeah, it's about acknowledging listen like we. Maybe we have wonderful philosophical conversations and that's something we did when we first started dating and it interested us in each other and that's awesome. But talking about feelings, talking about values, talking about our priorities in life, that's a whole other thing talking about our priorities in life.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:That's a whole other thing. As we're trying to help couples whose brains are kind of wired differently, how tricky is that, from like kind of the therapist's perspective, right To like, have to reach both of them and create this common language together. It's tricky.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:I would say a lot of it just depends on the couple, the individual couple, cause you know, even you know two people with ADHD. I mean, I look at my husband and I, we both have ADHD, yet we think very differently, yeah, very different needs, and we have a different attachment styles.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:And we you- know, even with that same, you know styles and we you know even with that same you know label, we're still very different.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:So, yeah, so it's really about establishing those ground rules, acknowledging that there's a communication issue, and then I really like to focus on intentions and goals and hopes and things like that, Right. So, because that's where so much misunderstanding can happen. Even this morning, I'll give an example with myself. I was irritated because I signed up for a consult for like a language school. I wanted to learn a new language and they missed the appointment and I was just venting to my husband about it and I'm like and also, who does Skype anymore? Like they scheduled it on Skype. Like who? I haven't used Skype in like 20 years?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:you know, but, like, the frustration was about them missing the appointment. At the end of the day, I don't care what technology platform you know, but his response to me was about Skype of like, oh well, it's still really popular in Europe and blah, blah, blah, and I got so irritated, like to me, it added fuel to the fire because it was like I don't care, it's just that I scheduled this appointment and they missed it. You know, and it's not like his intention was to irritate me, it's not like his intention was to ignore my point. It's just he did not understand from what I said what I was really frustrated about. And I don't say that in a way to point fingers.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:It takes two to tango, right. So it's one of these things where he could work on really thinking more and about what is probably really bothering me, and I could do a better job of communicating what's really bothering me. It takes both people, but I think it's a great example of you know, something so small and this was in a minute, maybe less than a minute easily could have turned into a huge argument over a very small misunderstanding argument over a very small misunderstanding.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:It's such a good example because I think it's one that I think so many people can relate to this, like tiny moment, you know where. Then, if we're not really aware, it becomes like three days of the silent treatment, or this narrative that like continues in my mind of like I can't believe he doesn't care. He obviously does not care, or she clearly just doesn't understand how I'm trying to help her and she's always sassy and back at me. You know, it's like it's so relatable to think about this example and then being able to say we may have to pause here and then learn another way of interacting or a way to repair. Right, maybe it's both. Yeah, yes, it's both, maybe and yeah, I mean it's.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:It's so interesting, right, how, like, the spark for the fire can be this tiny little thing. That's really insignificant, right Like at the end of the day next week am I even going to be remembering this?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Probably not, but it was just that, that very brief interaction, that really got my nervous system activated a little bit you know, and and and it's yeah, it's so small, but it's it can easily turn into a big fight, and that's what I find so interesting about, you know, romantic relationships, but relationships in general, of any kind, that you know, as humans we crave that connection and that you know that intimacy and everything, and then we end up driving each other up the wall, you know, but but it's so. It's about like trying to navigate something very delicate, and so it. It just takes a lot of. You know, I like to try and look at things under a microscope, with a couple of like all right, let's really slow it down, let's get painfully detailed. I want to know to, you know, your best recollection what was said, what was the tone of voice, what was the body language, what did it look like? Because in those details we'll be able to figure out what was the spark Like, what was it that turned it from something tiny into a bigger thing?
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Oh, I love this because you and I both know that it is the subtle shift of the facial expression that then triggers some sort of reaction in me, and so being able to like help couples slow down enough to see, like, oh, this was the moment when you turned around when I was still talking, and all the while I'm like I can hear you with my back to you, like I'm listening with my ears Right, and so I wonder if that is part of the work you're talking about. With like intentions, goals and hopes, right Like you get to the point of this where people can then kind of explicitly share the like real truth of the intention in like this microscopic argument that we're looking at.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, definitely, and you know, not to say that what led up to it isn't important, also because it's very important. Right, it's not just about the spark, but that spark can also, I feel like, gives us a lot of really good information about the individual and what their own needs are. Right, if a spark for someone is when their partner turns their back to them and walks away, then that's really good information for us to have. Right, then we know, okay, we need to find a different. If partner is walking away because they need a break from it which is also valid we need to find a different way of having that happen, because the way it's being done now is creating a huge problem, because the way it's being done now is creating a huge problem.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, okay, when I think through this lens of neurodivergence and couples work, I can imagine this language misunderstanding or misinterpretation of those subtle cues probably comes up a lot. Are there other ways that you see that coming up a lot? Are there other ways that you kind of see that coming up a lot?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most common traits of, say, adhd is that impulsivity, and so what that often looks like is people saying things in the heat of the moment that they wouldn't, if given a moment to really think, they would not say, and it just it just kind of comes flying out of their mouths. And I think that's something we can all relate to, right, like we're dysregulated. We've all said things that we later regret, and I think what's tricky is that for anyone who's neurodivergent and has that already that impulsivity already built into their brain wiring, it's just even harder, which means it requires a lot more effort to slow down and pause before speaking, which is certainly not easy but very doable and really, really effective. Because even you know, most of the people I work with will say I didn't mean to say that, that's not what I meant, I said it the wrong way, like I hear that stuff all the time and for them it was because it was just this impulsive thing that flew out of their mouth.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I'm thinking about it through the lens of sort of the neurotypical partner understanding this pattern in their partner. Right when it's like, okay, I understand the neurodivergence in my partner, I love them and I understand their impulsivity, both sides. Right when it's like this double-edged sword of like I understand it and so I want to give extra grace, but then it's also like I understand it and I need you to keep trying and it doesn't mean, it doesn't hurt. So I'm, I'm picturing kind of how this would probably come up on both sides of it.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, and it definitely does Right, and it's and it's one of these tricky things right's the person, let's say, in this scenario, with a neurotypical spouse and one with ADHD. They didn't choose to have ADHD, it's just. It is what it is. But at the same time, you are responsible for your actions and your words right, Like we all are as humans regardless of what's lying underneath.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:You know I always tell couples it is a two way street. It's about you know. So while ADHD spouse is working on not blurting things out and taking a pause, then neurotypical spouse is working on giving neurodivergent spouse a little wiggle room and understanding. It's not going to change overnight, it's going to take practice and it's going to look a little messy.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I can only imagine the yeah, the number of times it's that that it does have to continue to be that. And I think about kind of the repetitive nature of kind of patterns in relationships having the not just the grace the first time and not just the pause the first time, but the hundredth time, and then recognizing that, like in this pattern, it doesn't mean that we are bad for one another or that we're not both working. It's just. This is how relationships work. Right, it's like you you do repeat patterns and while you would like not to repeat this pattern over and over, it does seem like that's kind of how it goes.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, absolutely. We're humans, we're creatures of habit and we do repeat our patterns, and we we tend to stick with what we're comfortable with, because we know it even if we don't like it.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, so that's naturally going to happen within a relationship too, and I think in a lot of ways, you know, in a couple you have the two individuals and then with them together, especially being together for years, the relationship itself almost becomes its own person, so to speak, with its own patterns and its own issues and whatever. And, yeah, it's going to take both people to really shift those patterns.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:It's so good. Okay, so we have this impulsivity issue for sure. We have kind of this creating this common language. What other kinds of common issues are coming up for folks who are in neurodivergent sort of couple of relationships?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, I'd say the one of the biggest ones I see is one partner, how they, how they want their partner to respond when they're frustrated or need co regulation, how to regulate.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:So, like some people really want that empathy, that validation of feelings, you know all that stuff.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:And then partner comes in trying to solve the problem right away and be like, oh, I have all these ideas, let's do X, y and Z, and partner who's upset just gets even more frustrated because they don't feel heard and it can feel to the partner who's already upset it feels like my partner doesn't care about me because I'm screaming, this thing pisses me off and they're not validating that. It pisses me off and again it just adds fuel to the fire, whereas other partners, like I'm trying to make it better, I'm trying to fix the problem, I'm trying to clean the wound. Let's sew it up Right and and and. Again, there's no right or wrong. It's just different people have different needs and so it's really in the work it's about understanding. Here's my intention when I try to fix the problem for you and partner A, saying okay, but that's not what I need in those moments, and then getting on the same page and having a plan of what that could look like in the future.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, like, before I start venting or before I start going off, here's what I need from you in this moment. Here's what I need from you in the next five minutes. Here's what I need you to say. Like I have talked with some couples about stating exactly what you want the next five minutes, here's what I need you to say. Like I have talked with some couples about stating exactly what you want the partner to say, all I want you to say is like that sucks and it sounds like it was a hard day. Let me tell you what happened today and that's all I want you to say. And and then be happy when your partner loves you enough to say exactly what you wanted them to say. Don't be like well, you're only saying that because I told you to. Like, yes, they are. They're saying that because you told them to.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:That's a good thing, that's a really good thing. Right, yeah it. You know, I think some of the trap that some people fall into and I think it comes from a place of, like there's been all this hurt that's been happening, that builds up and so you know, we have to try and rebuild and repair. And it's like and I tell couples all the time, look, it might sound a little fake, so to speak, or, you know, manufactured in the beginning because it is right and, like you said, like that's a good thing, because you asked your partner to do X, y and Z and they're doing it, but again, like you have to be okay with it, maybe not sounding very natural to them, because it's not natural to them and it's going to take some time.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:You brought up this kind of issue of co-regulation, right that I think about the ways that the many different ways that people regulate and how this comes up in relationship right, when it's like, well, when I'm upset I want to scream and yell, and when my partner is upset, they, you know, want to like retreat and do nothing and say nothing, and when you know another person is upset, they want to run and get out the house or do whatever. And so, yeah, I just wonder how that is to kind of process with couples, and maybe it's just that maybe you're just teaching them different ways that people regulate, and then this is how you need to be helpful in terms of co-regulation.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, I like to send couples home with some homework to really think completely on their own, not talking with each other, really think about what do I need when I'm angry, what do I need when I'm sad. Obviously, you know, it can vary a little bit, but most of the time what do I need, and then communicate that to your partner. You know, obviously we can't control what other people do, but we can at least give them clues. We can tell them this person who really cares about me. I can say, hey, when this happens I need x, y, z. Can you try to do that? Because a lot of times one big thing I find that that erupts into huge arguments is one partner really wants to help and they have no idea what to do. That's right.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:So, they either shut down and say nothing that's right or maybe they do something that makes their partner even more upset and it turns into this huge big thing when really all it came from was just not having a guidebook.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:It's so true. So many people. All they want to do is help. All they want to do is to stop your suffering, and when they don't know what to do, they're going to do whatever they think is just best right. So they might think I should just walk away because I don't know what to say. Or it looks like they just want to be angry, they want to be alone. I mean, if we leave people to have to try to figure it out on their own, it's unlikely we're going to be happy with the way they do it.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Right, and then it's our responsibility to communicate what our needs are, instead of keeping them guessing right, like our feelings are always valid and valid. It's our responsibility to communicate here's what I need, here's what you're doing. That's upsetting me more, otherwise, we can't expect change. That's not fair.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, oh, that's good. I'm thinking about my own fickle mood from time to time, liana, where I, you know, I wrote down it's our responsibility to kind of think about. Or the homework that you send people home with is to think about, like, what do I need when I'm angry? What do I need when I'm sad? What do I need when I'm feeling different things? And there may be overlap and you may need the same thing for all of your different emotions but you may need something else for different emotions.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:And then where my brain went next was if I'm angry about one thing and it's a tangible thing that I think my partner could help me with, I'd probably say I need one thing. But if I'm having kind of a mixture of emotions that maybe I can't totally label, I might need something else. So I guess what I'm kind of rambling to say is that I can imagine that people need to be kind of continually asking ourselves first and then being able to communicate to our partners what do I need right now, in my sadness today about the loss of my friend, versus my sadness last month that I got on the scale and gained three pounds?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah absolutely I think that's a great point, and because we are very emotionally complex beings and there can be a lot of change that happens pretty quickly. So, yeah, I think that's a really great idea to constantly be asking ourselves those things, and I always tell people too. If you're not sure what your partner needs, it's always okay to ask and say, hey, what do you need right now? How can?
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I help. Oh, what a good reminder. I mean it seems so simple. How come it's so simple? I mean it's not simple, obviously, but why does it feel so simple but so hard to do?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:I think it comes from our love for our partners, of feeling like you know those shoulds of I should know, or I or you know we've been together, you know, especially when you've been together for years, it's like okay, well, you know there shouldn't be surprises anymore, and but we're. We're always changing and growing, and so there's going to be some surprises sometimes and that's okay, we just need to be. It's you know, about being open, and it's also about how we communicate it right, like if I don't know what my husband needs and he's upset, I'm not going to go. Well, I shouldn't go to him and be like what the hell is wrong with you, what do you need? Right now? You're not going to go over, well, but if I genuinely and in a nice tone of voice say, hey, I see you're upset, what can I do to help, that's going to hit very differently and most likely I mean nothing's a hundred percent but most likely he'll be able to tell me what he needs and that's great.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:And I have to believe that in these sort of scenarios, practice makes you better. And so, first time of hey, I've got to practice my pause and oh, I've got to give a little extra grace. It may be harder, but the more couples get to practice those things and even just like the hey, what do you need? How can I help? The initial response may be nothing, I'm fine, I don't need anything. But the fourth and the sixth and the 10th time that your partner is coming to you, we're kind of practicing and maybe even rewriting some patterns that maybe weren't great before. I don't know. What do you think?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Oh, absolutely, and I always tell couples I work with I liken it to like cooking a recipe. The ingredients are good, right, like you two love each other, you care about each other. It's why you're here. If you didn't care about each other, you would not be here, you wouldn't be together. So the ingredients are good, you have fresh veggies and all the things. It's wonderful. It's just somehow in the recipe, when you're making the meal, something went awry. So what we want to look at is the recipe. Let's look at what went wrong in the recipe and let's tweak that, and without blaming the ingredients. Right, because we know the ingredients are good.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:It's really good that the ingredients are not the problem for why the recipe did not come out Right.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:And that's why I, like you, know we talk about intentions, and it's important to acknowledge that, too, to your partner right, Especially when they're working really hard, even if they're not getting it yet and they're still not saying or doing the thing you need in the moment, it's still important to acknowledge the effort and the intentions behind what they are saying, because that counts for something.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, okay, are saying because that counts for something. Yeah, okay, I'm hearing a lot of like really kind of explicit conversations, saying things out loud, the things that, like we're intending explicitly stating them. Are we also saying that folks who are in kind of relationship with somebody who's neurodivergent does being direct and clear matter more? Yeah, I kind of feel like it does, but I was curious what your thoughts were. Being direct and clear feels like, instead of kind of like, well, they should just know and I'm going to drop this hint or I'm going to kind of test them to see if they can pick up on what I'm trying to get them to know Like that feels like it would be unhelpful.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, I agree completely and I'm so glad you brought that up. That is a huge piece. You have to be direct, you have to be explicit, you have to be clear. There cannot be any secret expectations of oh, I expected them to. You know, clean the kitchen by the time I get home. If you don't ask for it, you cannot expect it.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:If you are not okay, you need to say you're not okay. Don't say you're fine, you're not fine, and it's okay that you're not fine. And if you don't want to talk about it, right that second, that's also okay. But then you need to say that right. So instead of I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. Your partner knows you're not fine. Your partner has been with you for who knows how many years. They can sense when you're not fine. And then they're going to go spiral what's wrong, they're mad at me, I did something wrong, blah, blah, blah. It could go down a whole rabbit hole Say I'm not fine and I don't want to. I'm not ready to talk about it right now, let's talk later, that's okay. And yeah, and be really clear and direct, even something small like let's say you're deciding you're going to go out to dinner and you're deciding where to go. If you have something in mind or something you really don't want, say it.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:One thing my husband used to do that drove me nuts. He's better about it now. But I would be like, what do you want for dinner? And he'd go oh, I don't care, I don't care, whatever you want. That was not true. That was literally every single time I'd suggest something. He's like no, I don't want that. I'm so sick of that, you know, and it's like so clearly, this is not anything. Just tell me what you want or don't want. It's okay. I think sometimes we get into these patterns, you know, for whatever reason of like, trying to be easygoing or polite or whatever, and it's like that's your life partner. You don't have to pretend that you're super laid back and easygoing and whatever they know. You Just say what you want.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, my husband knows I'm a control freak. There's no fooling. I don't need to pretend like I'm laid back and chill.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:I cannot tell you I can't even count the number of arguments my husband and I have had over the five years we've been together, over just that issue of him saying whatever, I don't care, I don't care, when he really does care, and then it drives me up the wall. I'm like, oh my God, everything I suggest he's saying no Like. And what a stupid thing to fight over. Right, Like I mean. But this is what happens, right, Because we're not thinking about how is this going to come across to the other person.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Thank you for sharing that story. I have I resonate with that story so much. But I'm more like your husband. I'm more like no, you know we're we're gonna go out to eat, it's fine wherever we went, wherever you want to go, fine. And then I get there and I don't want any of this food. But I like take it to that level where, like, we're like at the other restaurant where I don't want to be. But I didn't say that, I just said, yeah, you could choose wherever you want to go. And yeah, we've kind of learned over our marriage for a similar thing where he's like okay, you give me three places that you want to go, and then I'll pick one of those three, or vice versa. Right, so then we, we make that compromise, but for years I did the same thing. I probably should apologize again for that Sounds like.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:But it's great you figured out a system that works Right, and that's what it's all about. Like my husband's gotten a lot better about this because I talked to him about it and I said this thing irritates the shit out of me. I need you to seriously work on it, and my on my end, it's been giving him some wiggle room because, it did not change overnight.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:And.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:I couldn't immediately react with anger. I had to give him some time and some space.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, oh it's, it's so good. I mean, oh, such good reminders. Okay, Liana, you're doing, obviously, you're doing therapy work in Colorado, but you also have this new coaching work that you're doing, which I'm so happy. So tell folks how they can find out more about the work you're doing.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Yeah, so probably the easiest way is to find my website, which is coachingwithlianacom, and Liana spelled L-I-A-N-N-A, and you can also find me on Facebook and Instagram.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Are you on Facebook and Instagram?
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:I am yeah, you're so good. Well, I'm trying, I'm trying. I'm not a big social media person personally, but I'm you know, I'm trying.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I always have this really horror, like this conflict in me, where it's like I want to put like great content out. I see all these great therapists, social workers doing all this great content and then I'm like, oh, I just get so sucked in.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:And then I'm like, oh, I just get so sucked in and then I'm like it's hard, it's really hard to balance it. It is Okay, we probably need a whole nother session about that. But anyway, thank you for being here. I'm so I'm so glad that you said yes to being here again and sharing your story, and I I mean that has always been a thread with your episodes that you're so vulnerable and brave, and I mean I just love the stories that you share that are so relatable, and so I'm so grateful that you came again to do that very same thing.
Lianna Purjes, MSEd, MSW, LCSW:Well, thank you so much for having me. I love coming on your show. It's so fun.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Okay, y'all, until next time, stay safe and stay well. Check out Liana's website. I'll make sure that I leave it in the show notes as well. Ciao.
