Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 110: Navigating Divorce: Co-Parenting and Family Therapy Challenges with Dr. Tara Egan
What happens when emotional partners must transition to effective co-parents? Join us as we welcome Dr. Tara Egan, a licensed clinical mental health counselor from North Carolina and South Carolina, to tackle this challenging journey. Dr. Egan, with her extensive experience in both school psychology and private practice, brings invaluable insights on navigating the emotional and legal complexities of divorce, separation, and high-conflict families.
Dr. Egan dives deep into the emotional and practical aspects of child-focused co-parenting, offering strategies to help parents shift their roles while prioritizing their children's well-being. We cover the nuances of court decisions on custody and therapy needs, including the delicate process of reunification therapy. With a compassionate and non-judgmental approach, Dr. Egan emphasizes the importance of supporting both parents and children through the various stages of separation and divorce, ensuring a positive path forward for all involved.
The episode also sheds light on the ethical and legal challenges therapists face when working with high-conflict families. Dr. Egan's firsthand experiences highlight the importance of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and maintaining professionalism under pressure. From handling subpoenas and court orders to collaborating with judges and attorneys, we explore the critical role of confidentiality and effective communication in court-involved therapy. Whether you're a therapist navigating these complexities or a parent facing similar challenges, this episode offers practical advice and heartfelt wisdom to guide you through.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
To learn more about Dr. Egan, her work, her podcast, or her counseling and consulting practice, visit: https://www.egancounselingandconsulting.com
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Dr Beth Trammell. Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Trammell.
Speaker 1:I am a licensed psychologist in the state of Indiana and I specialize in trying to help people make words matter for good, and our podcast today is going to be focused on court issues and talking about issues related to divorce, separation, high conflict, families, and I have no one better to talk about this than my friend, dr Terry Egan, who also has a ton of stuff on her website, does a ton of work here, has her own podcast. We're going to talk about all those things toward the end, but I'm just excited because we haven't really talked about these things on the podcast, and I think, both from a clinical standpoint for any clinicians who are listening in, but also if there are any folks, any clients or just people who are interested in therapy, I think it still might be an interesting conversation around this really important but sometimes sticky and uncomfortable, uncomfortable kind of work. So, all right, dr Tara, can you introduce yourself and tell us one fun thing about you again, and then we're just going to dive in.
Speaker 2:All right. So Dr Tara Egan, here I'm a licensed clinical mental health counselor in North Carolina and a licensed professional counselor in South Carolina. I'm also what's called a parent coordinator in North Carolina. We can talk about that because that's very overlaps with court responsibilities. I've been in practice like a mental health clinician in this mental health field for 24 years, and over time I have developed a specialty area in working with families and kids who are experiencing divorce, and we do happen to get involved with some cases that are pretty high conflict, and so I have specialized training in that, and then so does my team, and we're pretty well known in the Charlotte, north Carolina area for that.
Speaker 2:As far as an interesting thing, I just got a new dog. His name is Ernie. He's a Chihuahua mix. He is adorable. He thinks I am the best thing ever. He waits for me all day. Everything I do he thinks is amazing. He's I am the best thing ever. He waits for me all day. Everything I do he thinks is amazing. He's got an underbite, so he's got this derpy face, so he makes me very happy.
Speaker 1:I need your reframe here because we got a puppy two years ago and so Duke is actually. He's a golden doodle and he's great. He's so smart, he's such a good dog. He's like a little bit anxious. If I were a dog parent who gave medication to a dog, he probably could use some. He just is a little bit skittish and he follows me everywhere and I sometimes need your reframe of like he loves me. That's a good thing, Because sometimes I'm like, oh, can you just not be a leech for a second?
Speaker 2:He's a Velcro dog. That's what they're called when they have to be with their owners.
Speaker 2:Well, can't he be a Velcro to one of my children. You got to make that effort then to have him bond with them. You got to have him sleep with them for a few nights Definitely not sleeping with any of us. He's not. My dog sleeps on my bed and he has his own pillow and he lays like a human where his head is on the pillow and his body's under the covers. So we may have different relationships with our dogs it's hilarious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we, I cannot. I don't like having anything extra on the bed and I move too much in my sleep and so it would just bother me. But okay, we're going to. We're going to work on that, and I probably have my own issues, and that's obvious to most people who've listened. So, anyway, we're going to transition away from me and my issues. I'm wondering did you kind of go into training knowing you wanted to do this work and, if so, or if not, talk a little bit about how the work has evolved for you.
Speaker 2:Well, originally, you know, I always worked with kids. So that's you know I was. I have a doctor in school psychology, worked in schools for 10 years and I transitioned over to private practice. That always worked with kids and kids who had kind of behavioral issues, you know, and it could be anxiety, depression acting out, impulse control, adhd.
Speaker 2:Well, when you work with kids, you're going to work with their parents and work parents. There's going to be some of them who are divorced, like close to 50%, and so the reality is that's a dynamic that you have to factor in. You know that now we have a kid who's adjusting, or has been adjusting, to parents in two different houses. Maybe they're remarried, maybe they have additional siblings or step siblings. Like it became about pretty naturally. It wasn't like I was like, okay, I'm going to become a clinician and I'm going to work with this population. But when you're working with kids, it just kind of falls into it naturally and with me I have like the temperament to have parents who are arguing with each other or accusing each other of things. I have the temperament to like not get all riled up myself. I don't get on their merry-go-round with them. You know, I feel like I have a lot of compassion.
Speaker 2:I'm, you know, a divorced parent myself, so understanding like these are people who are not typically at their best selves, you know, and I have a lot of compassion versus being in a space of judgment, and so I definitely look at it as like, okay, I can be a person, a resource for them to help them sort of get adjusted to this new norm for them, help them feel empowered by seeing their kids thrive and, you know, recognizing that they have an opportunity to create a new path for themselves that is governed by what they want, what they need, what they're talented at, you know, and so you know divorce, yeah, as much as it's the end of something, it's also the start of something, yeah, and for the kids too.
Speaker 2:So I think that I can help get them in that mindset. I'm aware of sort of just the stages that occur prior to separation, during separation, in the months following separation, in the years following separation or divorce, and so over time, as I develop skills in helping co-parents learn to communicate in a way that was productive for the kids, but not looking to the other parent to be their partner anymore. That's a huge dynamic when you're in a romantic relationship or you're in a marriage, you are supposed to be emotionally responsive to your partner. That is one of your main jobs. When you're separated or divorced, your partner doesn't have or your co-parent doesn't have that same degree of responsibility, and that's a really hard thing to understand and separate and adjust to. And oftentimes, when parents are getting close to separation, they're not being emotionally responsive to each other. If they were, their marriage would probably lasted longer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but there's still an expectation. There's still disappointment, there's still anger or resentment if that parent wasn't responsive. So we need to shift the mindset there to look to that other person to meet different needs. I need you to be a good co-parent, I need you to be a decent person, I need you to be a good dad or a good mom, but it's not fair for me to ask you to help me grieve because my mom died two years ago or because my job is frustrating or something like that. That can't be their role anymore and that's just evolved over time. And then there's times where some of these cases that have gotten more messy and parents are having to go to court to figure out what a custody agreement needs to be like. They can't get it settled between themselves and their attorneys or a mediator, so they have to go to the court and have the judge decide what the final agreement is going to be, and that's stressful.
Speaker 1:It's stressful for the families, it's stressful for the families, it's stressful for the children, it's stressful for all people involved. Yeah, so I have to believe, even just from some of the work that I used to do and I certainly didn't specialize the way you are a good portion of requests that I would get either subpoenas or court ordered were custody related things. Are there other things that somebody who is doing court stuff would be called?
Speaker 2:for. So a couple of things that come to mind is one if we have parents who have a disagreement about whether or not their kid even needs counseling services, so we have let's say I'm just going to pick randomly let's say we have a mom who's like hey, parents are divorcing, I'm seeing signs of anxiety in my kids, or maybe their grades have dropped, or maybe they have issues with friends, like whatever it is, and they're like I think my kid needs somebody to talk to. And the other parent whether it's just because they don't view counseling as a resource. They look at it more as like something that you have to have some sort of pathology to require.
Speaker 2:They might disagree and they might disagree. So sometimes going to court can be the judge deciding. Does this child need therapy and, if so, what type of therapy? Like is it? Individual therapy? Should there be a family therapy component?
Speaker 2:There's a type of therapy that's really common in this field called reunification therapy, and that is when a child is not in a connected space with a parent. Maybe they're refusing to go to that parent's house during custody time, maybe there's a lot of anger, animosity, tension, arguing, maybe there's even allegations or confirmation of abuse, and so in that situation it can be a court-ordered therapy where the therapist is tasked with helping their relationship become more connected and responsive and healthy. And so I do that type of therapy and my team does. It's difficult because we have usually a child who's very actively opposing connecting that with that parent, and sometimes we have parents who don't have really solid parenting skills and being a good communicator and staying emotionally regulated and have boundaries and all of that. But you're also giving parents coaching in how to be responsive to their kids, how to be aware of what's developmentally appropriate. Maybe they need to learn how to give appropriate consequences and reinforcers. So you're doing your hands in a lot of pots in those cases and they're often being monitored by the court system.
Speaker 2:And then we might have another co-parent who's very hesitant about the whole process or is dumped on by the kid. I can't believe I need to go to Dr Egan's office again. I don't want to see that parent. This is crap. And then that other parent's sort of dealing with that emotional fallout, like it's complicated but that's evolved over time and there's a lot of like. There's like a community of us who does this work here in Charlotte and like we meet regularly and we go to certain trainings and we host certain trainings and you know make sure that everybody's well versed in like what best practices are and what the research is. Because you just you don't want somebody kind of willy nilly saying they do reunification work or saying that they can handle co-parenting when they don't have the support needed.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you're saying all of those things, because my recommendation to my students is if you want to work with kids, you know you need specialized training in working with kids. And that includes you know understanding development, understanding what's quote normal or what would be considered, you know, a symptom of some sort of disorder. But then on top of that it's training and family therapy and family dynamics, and then on top of that it's this very advanced training in co-parenting, high conflict families, reunification therapy. You know, reunification therapy isn't just like hey, well, let's just teach them how to get along.
Speaker 2:That, for example, in a family where both parents live in the same house and they're kind of in battles with their teenagers, that's family therapy, or we have sibling conflict. But when we have active estrangement or alienation between a parent and a child, like, we're in a different level, we're in a different stratosphere. One of the things that I think is really really important to working with kids that is actually something sometimes I don't see is actually liking kids. So there are times there's a couple therapists here in town where sometimes when I talk to them I'm like they don't even like kids or they don't have respect for the role of a parent. They don't understand. These people are doing what they can. They love their kids. They would do anything for them and I don't want to imply that there aren't parents out there who aren't caring or you know, not every parent loves their kid like that. We have unloving parents that exist in this world. But generally parents are doing the best they can and really want to be child focused.
Speaker 2:But if you don't, if you're dismissive or you're disparaging or you're judgmental over parents or you don't find kids who are a little unusual or kind of angry or have an attitude as being kind of cool or adorable in their own way, like don't do this work, go and work with a different population, because some kid comes in here and he tells you to F off or he's just doing gross little boy things. Pee is on the seat after he leaves your office and you're just repulsed by it. That's not your client and that's cool. That's cool, but don't think I should work with kids because either maybe there's room for it in the marketplace, like that's the job you got, or you kind of think you should like kids because you know people are supposed to like kids, like nope, you don't have to, but you got to know that about yourself, because the good therapists are going to know you don't like them and your job's going to suck.
Speaker 1:And you're dangerous. Yes, you know you're dangerous. I actually use that word a lot with my trainees. If you're not recognizing your bias toward a parent who comes in and I love what you said I have compassion for parents who come in and aren't their best selves, because I have literally thought to myself moments in my living room.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm the third of four kids in my family of origin and so I tend to be pretty even. You know I tend not to get super like. My range of emotion is pretty narrow. I don't get real high or really low, but sometimes if I'm really irritated and I'm stressed, I've had a moment or two that if someone came in and heard me the tone of my voice toward such a small thing, and if somebody came in and saw me, then they'd be like wow, who is this person who is trying to help other people? And I would ask for grace from people who recognize they're not at their best selves. And so I am constantly preaching that same message to people that if you don't think you can see beyond your own bias for these moments with either the child or the parent or the grownup, whoever is in your office, you got to back all the way up got to back all the way up and figure out what that's about, because you are dangerous.
Speaker 2:I think that knowing like, for example for I, you know, started off working with kids with kind of general common sense everyday problems and then now it's evolved over time into the specialized work and I think, as people go out there therapists and they get into their careers, to recognize like kind of what their boundaries are on If you work with kids. You don't have to work with kids whose parents are in a high conflict, divorce, like you refer those out and that's okay, or you get a lot of you. Take one case that you feel particularly, you know compassionate, for you have the like, the mental real estate to handle and you get a lot of supervision and you decide, hey, is this for me or not? Like that's all okay. But at the end of the day, if you don't like kids or you think you assume all parents are just like doing it wrong, then choose a different population for sure. But I think with the work that I do and the work that my colleagues do who are in this field, is it does it starts slow. You take that one case because you have this great connection with the kid, or you see a path to help them and, like I said, you get the supervision. You read the literature that's out there and best practices and you start to acquire an affinity for it.
Speaker 2:I remember going to trainings about what do you do when you get a subpoena, what does it even mean and what are people asking you to do? Is it something that makes sense, that's just a common sense extension of what you do, or is it something that's outside your scope? Like you mentioned custody things. Well, I don't determine custody. In North Carolina we have custody evaluators. I have been on the stand and the attorney has asked me what I think the custody schedule should be and I say that is outside my scope and I'm very clear on that. I have my own attorney through my malpractice insurance who comes with me to these hearings to make sure that my license is protected. She's given me a lot of suggestions on how to word something so that I can not box myself in the corner.
Speaker 2:I'm absolutely able to answer the question that's asked and not stray into another topic, which sometimes can be a little frustrating when you're like please just ask me this. Uh-huh, like, this is what I want. If I could have the judge know anything, it would be this. But, like, if you're not asked that question. It's not appropriate for you just to randomly say it. Yeah, so you know, you do start to see, like, honestly, who's better lawyers and who's not as better of lawyers. But I don't know, I just I have the temperament for some of this. I'm 24 years in. I don't get escalated very easily.
Speaker 2:I don't take a lot of this stuff personally. Like there's been times where like, let's say, a dad represents himself in court, which is called pro se, which means you don't have an attorney. So I'm like actually being interrogated by the dad that I've had a relationship with, and so they're, you know, in a therapeutic, family therapy process for two years and you're like man, they're just going to be trying to find a place I faulted or something. And then I realized no, this is somebody who is just fighting for their kids, yeah, and like all they need to do is remember that I'm here for them. Like I know, in this exact moment the other side is trying to elicit information for their case and I, in theory, am supplying that. But I still value that parent and whatever they can bring to that relationship, and so things usually calm down. But I'm pretty good about not taking things too personally. It's probably a better, more concise way to say that.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think to your point, not getting rattled and staying in that mindset of I know that both sides are really just doing what they think is best in that moment, and it's the part that makes clinicians most nervous is that time on the stand is you know which attorney is going to like treat me horribly. And you know, could you speak a little bit to your experience that I had was not at all that the both attorneys were actually very pleasant to me, the judge actually. You know I answered a lot of the questions similar to what you're describing right, where you just answer their question and then anything that was out of the scope of what I could share, I just said it's out of the scope of what I can share. I just said it's out of the scope of what I can share. And I actually had the judge sort of turn to me and say, dr Trammell, can you please just speak frankly, and it pained me to still stay in this place of like.
Speaker 1:Here's all I can really tell you, even though in my mind I had all these other thoughts about what I thought was the best scenario, which parent I had experience with being a better fit, but even when the judge sort of begged me to speak frankly about what I thought, where this kid should have been placed or what my experience with each parent was. I just still was sort of like your Honor, I just don't feel like I can do that. I don't have the relationship with either parent or the child that would allow me to speak frankly about just what I personally think about this, and so I'm curious about your experiences with, like, did that thing we're most afraid of happen to you, or what percentage of the time is it that you're mostly respected by the attorneys?
Speaker 2:My experience.
Speaker 1:What percentage are they like Dr Egan? How dare you think this? And how you know where you're like. It's like a really intense situation.
Speaker 2:The vast majority of the time, judges are kind and attorneys are kind. Yeah, um, are we allowed to say the word asshole on this podcast? Totally, yeah, okay. So lawyers aren't benefited by looking like assholes. Yeah, that's good we they like we are needed in this field. Like they need people like me. And judges know that.
Speaker 2:Judges, um, I go to this. Uh, there's an organization called AFCC. That is the real uh, what am I trying to say? Like resource for people who do high conflict divorce, and so we go to these um conferences and we have all sorts of things. So, like I've, you know, meet the judges in our County one-on-one and we all talk together and have discussion points about what's helpful to them. And they'll ask us what do we need to do to get access to what we need without violating your client's confidentiality? Like we just are able to have these frank conversations. So it's very collaborative. Like these judges aren't trying to be these mysterious cloaked individuals who wield all this power. They're just as interested in making a good choice as any of us.
Speaker 2:So I find judges to be very kind and very appreciative of the work I do. I actually find the lawyers, too, to be very appreciative. Like I have great documentation, find the lawyers, too, to be very appreciative. Like I have great documentation, I get back to them quickly. I ask questions as needed. You know, in a given workday, most days I talk to at least one lawyer or not, if not more, and it's all done with, like, the appropriate consents. You know, if my attorney needs to be involved in that conversation, because I also do the PC work, which is a little different than like being an individual or family therapist and testifying.
Speaker 2:There's been one time in my many times of being in court that and if I could tell you this anecdote cause it's bonkers. So I was child therapist. Parents were in a custody dispute. Dad you you know had a complicated relationship with his kids. He was on supervised visits. I was helping with that and it came down to the custody case. And I don't honestly, to this day know why. But dad's attorney's tactic was let's discredit dr egan versus hey, let's get dr egan to communicate about the strengths and growth she's seen in that. It blows me away that this was their strategy. So from literally the moment the first word was spoken in the courtroom that day, it was Dr Egan is the worst, and so I'm just sitting there like I don't even understand what's happening. Like if I were watching TV I would have gotten popcorn. Like it was like and so and like I.
Speaker 2:There had been a dispute about whether the child's records were going to be admitted. The judge determined they would, and so then I had to prepare the records, but they were in camera, which means only the judge could see them, and she would let certain portions of the records that she felt was relevant be released to the attorneys. The attorneys couldn't make copies or have the records leave the courtroom. This was a multi-day thing that occurred over weeks. So I went and then I had to testify and it was like hours, and then they were going to cross-examine me, which means the other attorney has a chance. During the cross I became apparent that the attorney who was cross examining me had seen portions of the record that had been indicated that they hadn't seen them. So then I start asking questions, like you're asking me questions about portions of this record that, to my understanding, you haven't seen. So then my attorney gets alerted, so she stands up and she's objecting.
Speaker 2:So then the judge took me off the stand, brought the attorney up, had him swear in and determined the trail that my records had taken and then the judge held them in contempt because they misused my records and she took his phone and started deleting stuff off his. Can you imagine being a grown man and having a judge pick up your personal cell phone and start deleting stuff off of it? And that got all like and there was like literally like attorneys yelling in the hallway like my attorney, the two clients, the mom and the dads, like it was a shit show. And then so then like that attorney was held in contempt and then I had to come back and be cross-examined and then like their whole stance was somehow that I was not credible and then I wasn't there for the ruling, because you come in and you do your testimony and you leave, but the lawyer that was held in contempt one of his penalties is he had to write me a letter of apology. So I like have really debated hanging it up in my office at home because I was pissed because my record.
Speaker 2:You know I'd worked with these kids for like over two years. I was, you know, like we were connected and they ended up having to go see another therapist, but that's the only time and my attorney was there. She was on it, I knew I had done nothing wrong. So I wasn't like, oh no, did I not do a good job? I had a lot of sympathy, despite it being so confrontative that I was like, oh my goodness, I feel terrible for this dad that he has a journey, that this is their strategy, coming up and discrediting Dr Terry Egan in Charlotte in this field. That's not a good plan. No, like I'm known by the judge. They know I do a great job.
Speaker 2:They court order me to do stuff all the time. If that's your stance, that's what you got here. You don't got a lot Like and he wasn't a dad that shouldn't have had contact with his kids, in my belief, yeah, so like he didn't need to do that, yeah, and so I just felt mad that the attorney had gone around and done that strategy and then had been so shady. And then when it dragged I can't remember if I testified, it was like seven hours or something. It was crazy and I know that's an interesting story, but that is the only time that's happened in years of doing it and I get subpoenaed. I mean there's some months where I'm in court two or three times a month, which is a lot. I mean some attorneys do that and like I was in the court last week, I was on the stand 45 minutes, I was dismissed, went home. They ended up navigating a settlement that now I'm helping them get through and helping the child adjust, settlement that now I'm helping them, you know, get through and helping the child adjust. So I don't know.
Speaker 2:I find it like a dopamine rush. Like when you go to court and you know you've done everything, you've got your, your P's and Q's you've got, you know all your, your records are tight, you've done consultation as needed. You know, like you have your own attorney who's supported, supported, like making sure that you're protected, and you just get to go and like speak to your work, Because that's what I'm doing is I'm speaking to the work I've done with this family. It's not Tara Egan's personal opinion, it's a clinical opinion and it's based on reported and observable symptoms. It's based on, you know, child report, parent report. I take excellent notes Like I have a whole system that I have and like all I'm doing is sharing what I've done. Nothing's changes, there's nothing at risk. I'm just stating what I've done and it's not any more difficult than that. At least that's the mindset I go in.
Speaker 1:I mean, that was the mindset that I I carried also, that like I really couldn't bring my bias.
Speaker 1:It was really more like I'm going to tell you what the kid has told me and I believe them, and so I'm going to tell you what the parent has told me and I believe them, you know.
Speaker 1:And so it's like if you're not adding a whole bunch of other things and if you're just answering the questions as they're posed, and I want to ask you a little bit about documentation, right, because actually there's two questions One is about documentation and the other is about because I think that question might actually be shorter I think there are a lot of guides and a lot of recommendations around documentation if you want to do this work, but I think, if you can speak to some of the stickiness of it, right, so you're working with a kid and I think about two arms, and how I have gotten into court-based work is one kids who have challenges, whether that's mental health challenges or behavior challenges, can sometimes come from conflict families who are still married, and so I might have started working with a kiddo and then, three years later now they're saying all right, beth, I want you to come to court for me, versus the family that comes in saying we're getting divorced, we want you to start working with them, and so I think about all the clinical issues around building trust with a child who knows you're going to talk in court.
Speaker 1:So there was a lot of questions there and I had to kind of get them all out. So documentation, sticky issues for, like, how do you maintain that? Like how do you walk that line with the clinical issues with you know either you've started the work or, hey, they're coming in and you already know you're going to be doing this work in the court.
Speaker 2:So I do a lot of education with the attorneys about don't ask for my notes or hey, they're coming in and you already know you're gonna be doing this work in the court. So I do a lot of education with the attorneys about don't ask for my notes. And so I tell them and they want me to be a cooperative witness. You may ask me for a treatment summary and you may ask me to testify, but if the client is the kid, I'm really protective of the notes. And it's happened like that case I told you about just a minute ago, the one with all the drama. That's one of the only cases that notes have been had to be provided. Yeah, and it was in camera. So there was a strong attempt by that attorney or, sorry, by that judge to keep those notes protected. So I have done a lot of like educating around that that's great, you want me to, but then with the kids. So let's say let's just say it's a 14 year old who knows that his parents are going to court, I explained to them about the rules of confidentiality and I and I say, listen, we're going to like if I, if the kid, says I know you're going to court with mom and dad next week, I'll say let's talk about some things that could be helpful for me to talk about in court, and most of the time there's stuff we've talked about. We've talked about how you're saying that mom yells all the time and she drinks a lot. Or you're saying that dad, you get yelled at and really punished for your grades but he doesn't help with the homework or whatever. Whatever it is, those are things that, if I'm asked, I might share that. Is there anything that you think would be helpful messaging? Because a lot of times, the kids who are in a divorce are experiencing stress points and they are not necessarily in a space to want everything to be kept secret, because they know there's opportunity for things to get better for them and for the. I call them the helpers. Okay, we have helpers in our world. We have helpers as far as therapists and coaches and teachers and attorneys and judges and guardian ad litems and parent coordinators, like we're all helpers, and so the helpers have to get together and decide, because your parents are not agreeing on what the custody plan is. The helpers are here to help your parents decide, and so we have to figure out what's helpful information to share that is going to help everybody make a good decision, and so it's. You know, their confidentiality, I feel, is really I really work to protect it.
Speaker 2:And things I might say in court is um, strengths I see is in child or in mother. Is this concerns, I see? Or areas that we're continuing to work on? Or clinical goals, like are are, you know, continuing to be unmet due to the fact that parents aren't bringing child, or my suspicion right, my belief, my clinical opinion is that, you know, seeing this child once a month or only on mom's time, or only on dad's time, is contributing to a delay in us meeting clinical goals. So I'll talk about things like that and communicate with kids.
Speaker 2:But in general, you know, parents should not be telling their kids about all sorts of court proceedings. Like, unless they're really old, an eight-year-old should not know their parents are going to court. And so if I'm hearing the kids know that I'm gonna be talking to the parents about how they're communicating this information to their kids. What are they hearing? What are you telling them? What are they seeing? Like, are they seeing paperwork? Are they hearing you on the phone with your attorney? Are you telling them? You know, neighbor Sally's got to watch you on Tuesday because daddy and I are going to court Like, what are you saying so? That's all. Part of the work I do is to help protect kids from grownup things.
Speaker 1:How does it change for you in terms of your response? And actually, can you clarify for the clinician who is still not sure the difference between a subpoena and a court order, and do we need to respond? Which one, if any, or both do we need to respond to?
Speaker 2:You always have to respond to a subpoena, you can't just ignore them. So if you get a subpoena, my suggestion is is you call your malpractice insurance and you tell them I got a subpoena and they ask you what it's for. They have you submit it and then they help you decide my attorney, I submit it and then she's like what do you think? What's the issue here? And I'll say I think that this judge needs to hear this or that, or I think that this is an attempt for one parent to get access to these kids' notes and there isn't a clinical reason. I don't have something additive. And so we talk that through and she decides do we want to quash it? Which means she counterfiles emotions, saying Tara is opposing this request.
Speaker 2:I also demand that subpoenas that I'm going to respond to, like come and testify or submit notes, have to be from a judge. Yeah, so if I have one attorney who's like Dr Egan, I want your notes, like, I have to respond to the subpoena. I can't just ignore it. But I can say no, unless I have consent from both parents, I cannot release the notes to you, which of course both parents are not going to consent to. Yeah, but if the judge tells me I have to turn in notes or have to come and testify. That protects my license. Because I have to do it, because it's been decided by the court that I need to testify, that I need to testify.
Speaker 2:So they have to go to the judge, tell them why they think this information is relevant. And then the judge signs that subpoena. They send it to me, my attorney, and I talk it over. She typically responds like she accepts the subpoena or she calls and negotiates. She'll say well, you know, dr Egan, would like you to revise this subpoena to say this or that, like this is what's compatible and in the best interest of the kids. And usually the subpoena to say this or that, like this is what's compatible and in the best interest of the kids, and usually the subpoena they'll do that, like they don't have a desire to have animosity with me and so, and then you know we follow through. So you do need to pay attention to subpoenas Doesn't mean you need to do what it says.
Speaker 1:But you can't ignore it, and a subpoena from an attorney is different than a subpoena from a judge.
Speaker 2:Yes, so always look to see who has requested, because attorneys will just request anything willy, nilly, yeah, yeah. But a judge is going to be more discerning and it protects your license. If a judge says you have to do it, then they can order you to violate confidentiality. Attorneys don't have that authority.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, so that. And then a court order is something. So there's what's called a consent order, which is the two parents came together and maybe through mediation, maybe through their attorneys negotiating, they came up with an agreement that is going to be filed to the court. So they have given, they've both consented to this order. So that's a consent order.
Speaker 2:A court order is the judge has made a ruling and in that ruling it's written down what they say has to happen. So they might say the court has ordered that children are to receive therapy services. The therapist will determine the pacing of the therapy process. They will also determine who is in session of the therapy process. They will also determine who is in session and parents will split the cost 50-50. So that's a court order.
Speaker 2:Sometimes in court orders I'm named Children will do therapy with Dr Terry Egan. Other times it's with a mutually decided upon therapist and then sometimes parents will either argue about that or they will decide. Me and my team are in a lot of court orders and if I get a court order where they haven't given me a heads up like I, just somebody sends me an email oh, you're in this judge man rule that you're doing this. Most of the time it's reasonable because I think the judges know the work I do. But I can oppose it. I can go back and clarify with the judge, like I'm not capable of taking this case, or there's a conflict, or you know whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because it was one of my questions from earlier. Is you know, do you ever go back to the judge and say, hey, this is a reason why we may not want to do this, or this is why I can't do this, and so I'm glad you said that. And if I've had this happen to me before, where families have brought a court order for child focused therapy or see a child psychologist or whatever, which I am, but it doesn't have my name specifically, I'm not required to do that. I'm like, okay, well, thank you for choosing me, but I don't have to say yes unless my name is specifically on that order.
Speaker 2:Right, you don't have to say, and even if your name is on the order, that you know you have the right to convey if there is a conflict. I mean it could be that your caseload is full. It could be you've worked with this family in the past. It could be you know their next door neighbors. You know whatever. You know like they could have an outstanding balance with you that they haven't paid and you don't want to continue to work with them. They could have said something that was vaguely threatening towards your license, Like maybe their kid has an eating disorder and you don't work with eating disorders, like whatever.
Speaker 2:There's all sorts of reasons. You do have to address it. You know I go back to the attorneys and then the attorneys will decide something different and represent it to the judge and I'm kind of off the hook. Also, there's been cases I've had to withdraw from, and so you know that's it's not a big process, but it is something you have to put in writing. You know you keep it simple, but there's cases where there is, you know, just something, something that implies you need to withdraw. So a lot of it is just, you know, making sure you're a good communicator with the court with the attorneys and for me, I really work hard to connect with attorneys. I go to lunch with attorneys. I go to various conferences that are a combination legal and therapy like conferences. I'll go to those. You know we've had like hosted a breakfast for local attorneys who do collaborative law.
Speaker 2:There's a responsibility that we have in our practice to understand that these people are resources. I don't consider them the enemy. You know. These are people who are working with families, just like I do. They're doing it in a different domain and they have a different approach and they have a different board of ethics, but they do, ultimately, at the end of the day, want to serve families. I mean, they are there to do that, and so I found that working with them is so much better for the families.
Speaker 2:It's really cool, you know, like I was in court and like with a woman I absolutely consider my friend, like I could call her up on a saturday and be like, oh my gosh, come shopping with me. But she was like the opposing person and I just I knew like she could ask me something confrontative. She could and, like you, just compartmentalize it. Everybody's just doing their job. She didn't, it went fine, but she could and, like you, just compartmentalize it. Everybody's just doing their job. She didn't, it went fine, but she could have, and I would have separated that out from our friendship.
Speaker 1:I mean it's I love that we're sort of coming to the end.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't love that we're coming to the end because I have a thousand more questions, but it's just barely scratching the surface of so many things that come up.
Speaker 1:And so it's just there's so many more things to kind of know about this work, but you're sort of continuing to remind us that two things the relationship with the people who are also doing this work, even though they're not in our field, is so important, right, just to continue to build that relationship and maintain it in a mutually respectful way. But I think the other thing that I love as a reminder because I do think it helps us compartmentalize is that everybody is really just trying to do their job for these families, and I really do. I mean, I have talked with some judges and some attorneys in our area here and they're like Beth, I don't even know what to do. I just think so often they're kind of just trying to do their best and they don't know what to do, and so it's coming from again all the way from the beginning. If we can maintain this posture of compassion for everyone involved, I feel bad for judges who have to make decisions that sometimes I'm like I wouldn't know what to do if I were them and I don't.
Speaker 2:I understand their. The times they've made ruling, like I have to hear about it, like I'm like I get it, like it might be like if I could wave a magic wand, the perfect grueling that I would wish for, almost always see their rationale and when you do meet them in real life and you realize they're they're just people too that takes away the like intimidation factor for me. But I do want to say to your audience if there's any chance you're interested in this type of work, I strongly recommend that you go to afccorg and it is a fantastic resource. There's trainings on there. You know you can. For here in North Carolina we have a North Carolina AFCC and then there's a national one, and I don't know if they're established in every single state. I think that's really a strong goal of theirs. I just don't happen to know because I know the North Carolina one. We've had two annual conferences and that's it. So before that they weren't big enough to even have the conferences. But it's something like you know it's an easy, it's in your state, you can get there. It's not a huge commitment, but the training you can get through there and the exposure you can get to other people's experience is very invigorating. I do, you know, some consulting with other therapists who are starting to process through this experience of just, you know, just getting some support over, like managing their nerves, making sure their paperwork is tight, you know, because it's like sometimes in our field it's like you just write as little as possible in your art, in your notes, and but if you're doing co-parenting work, it's not really, it's not really privileged, like we're both all three of us are in the meetings and like we're all adults.
Speaker 2:I'm not revealing a private mental health record. If the judge subpoenaed me and wants the co-parenting notes, sure we were all there. There's no secrets here. The parents know how they behaved. If they screamed at their spouse, it's noted and that's just the reality of it. And so I'm very protective over kid notes and teen notes. But when it comes to working with parents in a co-parenting relationship, it is what it is.
Speaker 2:If I have an individual client like let's say, I'm working with the mother and I'm her individual therapist, then I'm protective of her notes. But if she signed consent she's an adult. You know, if she thinks that, like I have a client now who dad tried to say that she was like mentally unfit and so the judge recommended therapy. She's coming to me, she's doing great like all of the like, every single recommendation you could ever give, exercise, and you know self-care and work-life, family. She's loving it.
Speaker 2:She does wonderful if she subpoenas me someday to be able to reflect to the judge how she's gone about this process. Good for her. You know, like yay, but I do a little bit of consulting. You know, kind of as needed as it's come up, people just need a little support with this and there's trainings out there and stuff that you can get to like know how to handle a subpoena and it can matter in your state. So if you're in a different state, you know it's going to be really important that you connect with other people in your state, versus you know you're in Indiana and I'm in North Carolina, like we might have very different rules.
Speaker 1:Yep, this resource I know about and love and I'll make sure that I link it in the notes because this work I love what you said earlier about your sort of collaboration group or your consultation group with other people who do this work and how you're staying on top of kind of the research and best practices and if there is such an art to therapy I mean we do have research around just kind of general therapy I think art is hard to defend in a courtroom but if you're following the science right and you're following the research and you're following best practices, I think it's easier to defend. And I think if you want to do this work, kind of staying in that lane is really critical and that's what those resources remind you to do. In that lane is really critical and that's what those resources remind you to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're just such fantastic people and we're like all in the same team somehow. So like everybody's really passionate, like the group of people that I work with all the time. There's not a stinker in the bunch and I think if there are, they've made their way out.
Speaker 2:But it's something we need more people to be in this work and I, you know, and I think, if there are, they've made their way out. Yeah, you know they just have, but it's something. We need more people to be in this work, and I know I told that crazy story, so please don't let that imply that, don't let it scare you.
Speaker 2:It's just interesting and at the time we were just being like, wow, if this weren't about me, this would be so fascinating. And so I know, like you know, like I said, I have the temperament. I'm very experienced. I've had great mentorship over the years, even though I started in this field non-traditionally by being a school psychologist. But I hope people hear this podcast and think maybe I'm interested. Yeah, I'm interested. And, like when I hire people, if you're a therapist and you want to do this, come and for me because I'll train you. Move to charlotte, move to charlotte, it's a glorious place to be. Yeah, like, like, I pay great. Our therapists make over a hundred thousand dollars a year. Um, and if you go to court a lot, you get you charge even more. Yeah, so it's a nice lifestyle. But if so, if you're interested, check out my website and see, because we are hiring and we want people who have the temperament.
Speaker 1:This is a great like we're wrapping it up. Tell people how they can find you, your website. You have a podcast also. How can people find?
Speaker 2:you so they can find me. My practice is called Egan Counseling and Consulting. It's just EganCounselingcom. E-g-a-n. And then my podcast is called One Day You'll Thank Me. It is a general mental health podcast but it does lean towards talking about divorce and separation and that we have attorneys and parent coordinators and things as guests, so you can kind of skim through and look at the topics that are most interesting to you. But those are great resources. I have started a TikTok. I've probably got I don't know maybe 25 videos on it and that's just at Dr Tara Egan. You know we're on Instagram and our team all rotate posting helpful things, so we're out there. You can find us if you're interested in learning more about the work we do here or the work that I do.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I love you're doing TikTok. I tried for a hot minute and then just was like this is too much for me.
Speaker 2:I do it when I drive to work, you do, I put my thing in my camera. In the thing I hit play, you know I think for about three minutes, like what do I want to say? I'll give like three tips for, or three ways that you can support your kids during divorce, or what is a parent coordinator? And I just like record it and then I hit stop and then I basically I don't edit or anything, so it's like a bunch of me driving to work but people have found it, you know, reasonably helpful. So it's amazing.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is those short snippets. I think that are things that you and I people in the field just are like well, yeah, that's just normal, Like everybody knows what sleep hygiene is and everybody knows that you shouldn't drink coffee before bed and it might make you stay up, or everybody knows. Yeah, it's like, well, maybe not everybody knows.
Speaker 2:And so it's good to share, or people know and they need a reminder.
Speaker 1:I mean amen to that. All right, Thank you for being here, dr Tara. I always have more questions than answers, and I think that that's great. I mean, I have a lot of answers too, but then it stirs up more questions, which I think is great because at the heart of that is getting people more interested in this work and finding more people who can do this work. So thank you for being a part of today and, yeah, I look forward to when you come back again. Thank you so much. It's amazing. All right, y'all. Thanks for listening, ciao.
