Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 111: Overcoming Negative Self-Talk: Strategies for Cultivating Self-Compassion and Awareness with Laura Sgro
Ever wondered why your inner dialogue often seems to sabotage your best efforts? Discover the origins and influences of negative self-talk with Dr. Beth Trammell and her guest, licensed clinical social worker Laura Sgro. Laura shares her expertise on how comparison, perfectionism, and people-pleasing mold our inner voices, and why compassionate self-talk is better than mere positive affirmations. She even shares personal anecdotes—including her stint in an acapella group—to highlight the pervasive nature of self-talk in our daily lives.
Explore how past experiences, societal pressures, and even well-meaning parents contribute to a damaging inner critic. Learn why our brains have a natural tendency to skew negative in an attempt to protect us and how this can impede personal growth. Understand the subtle ways parents might inadvertently instill perfectionism and negative self-talk in their children, and how these patterns can persist into adulthood, causing long-lasting impacts on mental health.
You can also learn actionable steps to take toward breaking free from negative self-talk. Laura and Dr. Trammell delve into practical strategies for challenging ingrained beliefs and fostering self-compassion. Discover the importance of treating yourself with the same kindness you'd extend to a friend, and how mindfulness can help in building a more compassionate and empowered inner dialogue. Whether you're struggling with intrusive thoughts or simply looking to improve your mental well-being, this episode offers valuable insights and tools to cultivate a healthier mindset.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
To contact or learn more about Laura and her practice, visit: https://laurasgrolcsw.com/
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
All right, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel, and this is Things you Learn in Therapy. I'm actually a psychologist and now I can say I'm very happy to say that I am a professor of psychology at Indiana University East. Yeah, this summer it was kind of made official. So now I have to practice saying that at the beginning of this that amazing promotion where I can stop worrying so much about having to track all the good work. Now I can just kind of do good work and just be grateful for the opportunity, just kind of do good work and and just be grateful for the opportunity.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:So anyway, that was kind of a long winded start, but I am so excited that my guest is back. Laura Skro is here and we're going to talk about self talk. And actually what I love about Laura and all the work that you do, is that so much of it is so relevant to this kind of place that so many of us find ourselves in, with a lot of comparison, a lot of perfectionism, a lot of people pleasing, and today we're going to talk kind of about this idea of negative self-talk, where it comes from and then what we can do about it, and so I love how we're going to be able to dig in on this. So, laura, introduce yourself to listeners and then tell us something fun about you.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yes, well, congrats again, beth. That's amazing.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Hi Laura.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:I'm a licensed clinical social worker and therapist based in Los Angeles, california. I have my own private practice here. That is virtual, so I see folks all across the state, which is really, really cool, from the most remote areas to big cities. It's been really fun to do that. I also create a lot of mental health content around anxiety, perfectionism, people pleasing, trauma, that kind of stuff. One fun thing about me well, I recently had a performance for my acapella group which I did the math, and I've been in the group for nine years.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:I feel, like I'm not old enough to be in something for nine years, but there it is, so that has been a really fun outlet for me.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:And.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:I'm ready to dive in.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:That's amazing. Okay, wait, so I am not musically inclined in any way, really. And so you say an acapella group, and I think in my mind I know what that means, but maybe I don't If you have ever watched Pitch Perfect, you probably know what it means.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:It's where people make music only with their voices, and so we might have sounds that sound like a piano or sounds that are meant to be like a guitar from a song, but it's all people singing, and so the baseline, the beatboxing, is a way that we get some of that percussion in. It's someone's voice. So all voices and my group's co-ed with people as young as like their early twenties, and I think our oldest member is 70. So it's been so fun.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Wowza, that is amazing. I love it so much. They're like my family.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:That is amazing. That really is amazing. I love it so much. They're like my family.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Oh my gosh. Okay, so do you have any like YouTube videos or like? Is there any recordings of this?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yeah, if you want to look up the Overtones acapella on YouTube, you'll find us. Most of our stuff on there right now is from pre-COVID, so it's not quite as updated. The group has changed a little bit since returning post-COVID, but yeah, we have some of our old videos on there. You'll see me in a very different capacity if you look that up.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:That's incredible. I'm actually going to look it up. I wrote it down Overtones acapella. I probably will misspell acapella, but I'm sure self-correction will happen. You know, spelling doesn't matter anymore because everything has auto-correct.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:That's very true. I rely very heavily on that.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:The same thing with broccoli. I literally can never spell the word broccoli. Is it two C's? Is it two L's, Is it one? For me it's vacuum.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Vacuum is just so hard for me. Two C's, two U's, I don't know.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I literally just made a chore list for my kids that said vacuum out my car, and I had to ride it like three times and scratch it out. I love it. I'm glad I'm not alone. Anyway, while we're here talking about negative self-talk and how I in my mind, just as I was describing all of these things, I was thinking in my mind this episode is going awry already.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Oh man, that is not helpful, because actually it's very amazing to have these sort of conversations because at the heart of it is exactly what we're talking about. So let's just sort of like pull it all the way back, right. So like I find that for some of the things that I talk about so many times, over and over and over, it feels very natural to me and I think, well, yeah, everybody knows what self talk is, but can you just just sort of like bring us all the way back? What do we mean by self-talk? Yeah, let's just start there.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Sure. So the way that I sort of conceptualize self-talk is our inner dialogue, right, and sometimes this is something that we notice consciously, sometimes it's something that's just kind of happening on an unconscious level. But whatever that sort of voice or message that you might be getting at any given moment in your head, the way that you speak to yourself, that is self-talk, and so a lot of the time it skews negative. Unfortunately, our brains do that. We can hop into why that is in a moment, and what we want to work towards is for it to be just compassionate. I would even say more than positive. We want compassion there. So that's, that's always our goal.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Okay, I'm already like writing things down and I love that, so okay. So the first thing you said is actually really interesting because while I, you know, I'm a psychologist, I typically practice through a CBT lens, which is cognitive behavioral, so I talk about thoughts a lot. And it's interesting because, when I think about my own life, what you just said about self-talk is sort of your inner dialogue and that some of it is intentional, right, like some of it I'm like hmm, let me think about what we're making for dinner, right, like in my mind. But then some of it is unconscious or not necessarily like oh, I've actually selected that thought, it just is happening.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Right. We're not usually aware that we're having thoughts, we just sort of have them. That's why negative self-talk is so impactful because it feels automatic, it feels true, it feels like well, of course, this must be true if this is what my brain is saying.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, that's actually really like I wanted to pull it back and kind of pause there, because I think what you just said is like my brain believes it to be true. Because I think what we do is we run all of those thoughts parallel to one another, that like one thought is the same as another thought and is as true as another thought. Because if I believe what we're going to have pizza for dinner, because that's what I'm going to make I believe that in my mind if I am scrolling social media and I think in myself, I'll never be that skinny again, I'll never be that pretty again, I'll never look like that again. It may not have been a thought that I wanted to choose, it's just happening, but I believe it the same.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Right. Thoughts are not facts, right the same way that feelings are not facts. And yet so often we interpret them as that because we don't assume our brain's going to lie to us, just whatever's going on up there, like the sky is blue, yeah, the sky is blue. So like why would this other thought I'm having not be true?
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Okay, so we're going to come back to compassionate, I'm sure. Yeah, for sure, okay, so all right. So this inner dialogue that all of us have, you mentioned, like we tend to sway toward the negative. Why do you think that is? Or why, what are we saying? That's for yeah.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:So, unfortunately, I think, like just most people grow up or in life have experienced some negative messaging, whether that's from your family of origin, whether that's from a past like toxic partner or a friend or whatever. Sometimes along the way we've just learned certain messages about ourselves and so I think it tends to default that way. So if I've heard over and over again that I'm worthless because I didn't do something right, I'm going to believe that eventually. I think a lot of the times this negative self-talk just well, let me back up. I think a lot of the times this negative self-talk just Well, let me back up. I think a lot of the times the brain just skews negative in general because it's trying to protect us From something.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:If you're really anxious about something, it might be trying to protect you from this like catastrophic outcome that you don't want to happen, even though the way that I think of the brain a lot of the time is like the well-meaning Aunt who gives you really terrible advice and doesn't actually know what's best for you, but thinks she does. That's the brain sometimes, so it's going to lead you in this negative direction, perhaps to protect you when in reality like it's not actually helpful.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, that you don't actually need protection all the time. And so this like crazy aunt that you have is sort of like, well, maybe you shouldn't do that because you might actually, and instead maybe you should hear, and so she thinks and your brain thinks it's protecting you, but actually it's not a true threat.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Right or even just. Like you know, growth can be uncomfortable or change can be uncomfortable, even when it's positive, and so sometimes our brain wants us to avoid that discomfort, despite the fact that it's a thing that we want or it's something that we, you know, maybe need to do for ourselves.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Ooh, that one's good. Yeah, growth is uncomfortable.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:That's an amen to that Okay, the brain wants to, yeah, avoid that discomfort.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, absolutely, as we are trying to avoid that discomfort, we're sort of either consciously or unconsciously getting these messages around like, hey, you shouldn't do that thing because that would be uncomfortable even if it's growth, yeah.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Except the message that your brain actually sends you is oh, you shouldn't do that thing because you can't manage it, you can't do it right, it's never going to work out, and so the other way would be much more compassionate and at least then we'd be able to make a decision for ourselves. But if our brain has this automatic thought of, well, of course it's not going to work out which, again, I think also comes from these past experiences where maybe you had, you know, a bad moment at work that like was really traumatic for you, or some relationship situation where someone was saying really negative things about you, like those messages always come from somewhere and so the brain's going to capitalize on that.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:You know, it's interesting, I think, about some of the messaging that obviously are really strongly negative. Those happen and it's terrible. And I think, though, we don't always realize it at the time. I think as we get older and we start to realize how some of our childhood impacts us. I think as we get older and we start to realize how some of our childhood impacts us, I think we start to realize some of those really horrible, negative things. But I'm wondering if there are examples that we can think of of sort of like more subtle but still negatively impactful messages from our.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:You know and I don't think people do this intentionally, right I work with a lot of parents. Sorry, I'm like on this tangent and I'm trying to make sense in my mind and then it's maybe not coming out clearly, but I think a lot of parents are well-meaning and I think we have some not so great parents who say really horrible things to kids, and that's horrible. But then I think we have these parents who maybe are trying to raise the best kids they can raise and in doing so, maybe sharing kind of subtle themes or subtle messages that may still be creating this negative narrative.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yeah, I think that's a perfect example, because that's perfectionism right there.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, it is.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Right. Someone who grows up in a household where achievement is highly valued and perhaps the only way that you get praise from your parent is going to develop this perfectionism, and then what that turns into as an adult is well, if you don't do this perfectly, then you're worthless.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:If you don't do this perfectly.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:yeah, you're nothing or you're a failure, and so that's a really subtle way that that can develop over time, but then the impact is so huge.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I love that example. I think achievement is a great example of how that works and I see it where. You know where parents are like, well, I just want to push him or I want to push her to be the best version of themselves, and so I'm just like harping and harping and harping on getting you know, always grades are a huge thing. I could probably do several episodes on just grades alone. But also like over-correction of mistakes, right, or like kind of not allowing mistakes. I think sometimes parents think, well, it's fine, I know kids make a mistake, but then if kids make a mistake, then we're like screaming at them or hounding them, jump on the consequence, right?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yes, yeah, yeah, and I think even in the work that I so, I work primarily with adults although I have worked with kids and teens in the past and families as well, and those issues definitely still come up for a lot of the folks I see that are parents. It's. It's interesting to see like those cycles repeat themselves, right, because? Because where does that come from? That comes from the parents own cycle of negative self-talk and perhaps not having an outlet for some of those things the way that at least current generations might. But going back to sort of like what negative self-talk can look like in these subtle ways, I think so often it's just like that.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Of course it didn't work out. Why would I have expected anything different? Right, it's not like you're not being sort of abusive to yourself with that kind of language, but you are like implying that why did you even try? And that's such a damaging message, whatever the context might be. And so I think, yeah, this can happen, so subconsciously, or like you try something once and then that becomes like the story that you just carry with you moving forward, and then that negative self-talk builds on itself every time that story plays out.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, every time even a part of the story plays out, we just are sort of like waiting for the rest of the story to happen.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Right, exactly.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, I mean, I think about that same thing, with folks who struggle with really experiencing joy because they're just sort of waiting for the next shoe to drop, and that similar kind of narrative, that internal narrative, what's going to?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:get in the way of this oh.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:I better not get too excited or too hopeful because I'll just get disappointed. Or, you know, I work a lot with folks who have trauma, and so this is where shame can come in a lot. You know, a huge culprit of negative self-talk is internalized shame, and so that could look like, you know, shame that someone, like wasn't able to prevent the traumatic event from happening. Or maybe it's shame in how they feel about themselves after the event. Maybe they feel damaged or they have some body shame or something that's developed as a result of that. And so that shameful language of just like you're not worth anything or like why would you even try?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:In a more common example that I see a lot too, is like social anxiety, right, so like overthinking what's going to happen at a social event, like don't bother talking to this person, they're going to judge you. They're going to judge you, they're going to think you're weird. That's something that I think a lot of people can relate to, and you know, again, one time that doesn't sound like a huge, maybe super impactful thing, but if that's the story that's repeated every time you're at a new social event or in a new group of people, like, that's going to weigh on you and it is going to impact your behavior.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I was presenting something about. I got to I'm trying to see if I can pull it up in enough time and maybe I'll have to pull it up and find it later but something like it's just a huge percentage of our thoughts are repetitive, right, we have. We have like tens of thousands of thoughts a day and like a huge portion. I'm going to see if I can find it as, as we're kind of talking along but I found one research study that said you know, we have 75,000 thoughts a day and like 85% of them are repetitive. Right, that we don't have a lot of unique thoughts. And so I sometimes also, you know, think about that when I'm struggling with some narrative in my mind that would be considered negative self talk and it's like again, you know, it's like, well, another day, here I am, I'm still thinking like gosh, I'm never going to be able to do that.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:And then it wears you down, yes, but it doesn't mean that I'm abnormal because we have so many of these repetitive thoughts, you know. So, anyway, I'm going to see if I can find that. But so, okay, we have these messages from childhood, whether they're subtle or maybe not so subtle. Maybe some of us had caregivers that were, just straight up, you know, abusive to us. What are other reasons that we have this sort of negative self-talk in us?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Gosh, it could just be anything right. So comparisons to others, whether that's on social media, whether that's like you're in a relationship and you're comparing yourself to a different relationship I think partners can be any attachment figure, I suppose. So like your family of origin is a big one, a partner would be a big one, even a really close friend, depending on how that person has talked to you historically or if there's toxic dynamics in that, or even if, like, those people are modeling that kind of language for you. It can be so easy to pick it up. I think sometimes too, it's just sort of a defense mechanism. The brain's trying to protect you. So that's a defense mechanism to avoid whatever discomfort that is. I think sometimes it also can just be like something that starts as a joke like oh ha, I'm a piece of crap. Whatever you know, you still have to hear yourself say that, even if you're joking. And then you know it's just easier for your brain to pick up on that later, even if you didn't mean for that to happen.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:I just think there's so many events like work can bring out a lot of this in people. You know, feeling like you don't measure up. Parenting can bring up so much of this feeling like you don't measure up as a parent, right, so it really comes from this place of. I would say one pillar is traumatic experience and like learning those messages from someone else. I would say. Another pillar is perhaps just like struggling with your self-esteem or your self-worth, and really feeling like insecure in how you're measuring up or how you know you as a person are. I think body image, especially in today's culture, is a huge, huge thing, huge source of negative self-talk. A lot of people struggle with that comparison. So, yeah, there's a lot of pillars, I think, that can contribute to this. And then if you struggle with more than one of those domains of life right, then this is something that's becoming really, really, really ingrained.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I love that you're sort of looking at these different pillars, these different sort of categories, and how we are all susceptible to so many of those right that even if we it's not necessarily a regular thing for us to have self-esteem issues, maybe we're going through a time in life where it's like, darn, you know, and that comparison thing is so true. And I think you know I think about some of my own expectations and how those sometimes get me into trouble with negative self-talk and obviously those, those expectations, are secondary to comparison, right when I'm like well, I look at other people in what you know, they do as a mom, or what they do as a faculty member, or what they do as a podcaster. For that you know. So, and I pulled up this um, it was, uh, fred luskin from stanford that we have approximately 60 000 thoughts per day and 90 of them are repetitive wow that's what his research sort of suggests wild to think about
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:that is wild to think about, yeah and I would be so curious what the percentage of those are that are intrusive too right. So, going back to what we're saying the very beginning, like a lot of this doesn't even happen on a conscious level, or like that self-talk is so ingrained already, like we all have intrusive thoughts and it's hard to discern whether those things are true or whether they're certainly helpful. Big conversation, a big part of this conversation, is like are these things even helpful?
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Of course, negative self-talk isn't conversation is like are these things even helpful? Of course, negative self-talk isn't Well, and I find that a big portion of the work that I do in therapy with people is therapy is the art of like really asking people to slow down and reflect, and so I think about 60,000 thoughts and like how many of those am I actually like weighing on the meter of truth?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:This is just taking its word. It's just like okay, well here it is.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yep, I'm just going to repeat that in my mind and it's going to come up again and I'm going to hear it again, and you know, I'm going to hear it another thousand times just today, literally All right. So here we are, we. We are all aware that probably a huge portion of us experience negative self-talk on the daily, and so what are some ways that we can try to kind of minimize their impact? Or maybe, I don't know, maybe you can thread this in right, like how would I know if my negative self-talk is impacting me? Like what would be a reason that I'd have to even try any of these strategies you're talking about?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Well, I think the first thing is to just notice how you feel about it, right? So we're talking a lot about thoughts, but you know, as a CBT therapist, you definitely know this like your thoughts and your feelings are inextricably linked. And so if you're having some sort of negative reaction, if you're finding and of course, the behavior piece too, so if you're finding you're not going to social events because you're convinced that everyone's going to think you're a loser if you do, that's obviously not functional, right? If you find yourself feeling really distressed at the prospect of trying something new, or, you know, whatever the case may be, that's an indicator that it's like, just really not functional. So I guess I come back to this place of like function and what does it feel like and what is that impact on you?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:And in general, I think just practicing self-compassion is always more helpful than practicing or than being negative. You know, I think there's a time and place to acknowledge like feelings that are real, even if they're negative, for sure. But is it helpful to dwell on that? Is it helpful to ruminate on that? Is it helpful to think of yourself in that context? Really, like, probably not.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Okay, so self-compassion is starting to gain momentum, I think, in mainstream media, but the people that I talk to about this idea of self-compassion are usually like barf emoji. Yes, that's fair. So I don't know if you experienced that same thing. You know I'm. I'm in the Midwest and so I know. I'm curious if you know folks in LA are a little more like I don't know kinder in that way We've got a spectrum of folks here.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Okay, so you? So you might experience some of the barf emoji reaction when people are like I don't have, it's almost like we think we don't have the luxury of self-compassion.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Right. Or, like you know, I think sometimes there's the drill sergeant approach of like, well, you know, this is this is going to motivate you to do better. Or, like you know, if you acknowledge where your shortcomings are, then, like you and you know, there's certainly some validity to that. But, a, that doesn't work for everybody, and B, if it's not helpful, it's not helpful and you can't force it to be helpful. So that's really what it comes back down to is, yeah for sure, some people may not like the idea of self-compassion because they get really motivated and amped up by like, just constantly trying to grow and, you know, acknowledge their faults and whatnot. But in my experience with my clients, even those who tend to benefit from that sort of like drill sergeant mentality, they find this, like flipping the script, to be quite helpful because there's a freeze response. I think that comes with negative self-talk that prevents action from happening, or at least the action you want to see.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:You're like talking to a client about this idea of self-compassion, and so how do you describe what you mean by this?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yeah, again, it really just comes back to function for me. So if the way that I'm talking about myself makes me feel like crap, it's not compassionate, it's not helpful. When I think of self-compassion for myself, I don't go into that super like barfy, like sort of woo-woo-y place. Personally, that's not my sense of humor, that's not what's helpful to me. But what I will do is ask myself like do I like the way that I'm talking to myself? Do I feel good after whatever it is that I'm saying? Would I talk to a friend this way? Like you know, is it? Is it helpful to use this kind of language? And so the way that I'm sort of conceptualizing compassion here is to just like choose yourself. Just choose yourself right. Just choose what's going to like motivate you or inspire you or nurture you, depending on what it is that you need.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:So for those folks who are like automatically having negative self-talk about choose yourself, this is real life, right, like this is how quickly it happens, and this is why I love like just having this dialogue, because what people who are listening, they're already like choose yourself, who has time for that? Like I don't have time for that and how selfish could I be. And like those are precisely the negative self-talk messages that we're talking about, right.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Because it creates that freeze response from you being able to either do the thing you're trying to do or, you know, have the change that you want to see. It involves cycle breaking, right? So negative self-talk is a cycle. It's not going to change without breaking that cycle and replacing that with something else.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I want to have people hear right that this cycle of like continuing to go back to that negative mindset is that freeze response. That's what you're saying. It's that thing that keeps you from doing the very thing that you need to do. And so you know, when you said choose yourself, and some people were like gosh, it's hard for me to choose myself because I have four kids or I have a job, that's your, I have this or I have that. If we're not choosing ourselves in some of these moments, we actually can't be the version of ourselves that all those people in our lives need.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:For sure. Yeah, 100%. You can't fill someone else's cup with your own empty one. So it's that it's definitely that idea and also, just like, at the end of the day, you deserve it, and I think that that's probably going to maybe trigger something in certain listeners because but that's, that's a huge barrier when we talk about negative self-talk, and certainly with shame, is this belief that maybe I don't deserve to be kind to myself.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:What have I done to deserve kindness? And I guess I'm here to sort of posit the idea that we all are inherently worthy of kindness and self-kindness, even on days where we're struggling, even in moments where we're struggling, even when we're not perfect, especially when we're not perfect. And so that is maybe its own barrier to overcome, and we could probably do a whole episode about that, but you sort of have to buy into that. I deserve to have the outcome that I want for myself, instead of fighting this battle and losing every time to negative self-talk.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:So choose yourself. You deserve it. Messages that I'm certain a huge portion of listeners are, like I heard, messages directly opposite to that 100%, and so I love that you're sharing these really practical things that we're saying we're not saying. You deserve to-.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yeah, like neglect all your obligations in the name of self-care, right? Like? No, that's not going to serve you either. And to your point about, I've heard these messages that directly contradict what you're saying. One of my favorite techniques to sort of combat that barrier, which is a very real barrier, is to ask yourself like, whose voice is that in that message? Who taught me that message? And, more importantly, is that person a reliable narrator? Who gets to tell me how to live my life, or who gets to tell me how to feel, or who gets to tell me who I am right? Would I trust that person's perspective on other things or am I just trusting their voice because it was the loudest? Who are they to tell me that? So if this is a toxic parent, a toxic ex-partner, whoever it might be, are they a reliable narrator and do they get to have that kind of power over you? Right? That's one way to start challenging the messages that come from somewhere else, Yep.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Right, that's one way to start challenging the messages that come from somewhere else.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:I love those like very real questions that people can pause and say you know, is this really a truth that I need to believe? Right? Does that person like have a PhD in who I am and like gets to tell me that that's what I have to believe about myself? Like, no right, they were just the loudest voice once upon a time.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Oh, that's so good. So we're here breaking cycles, right, we're breaking cycles that are maybe well ingrained, they are repetitive, they are wearing us down, and so what are other ways that you um, you know, kind of recommend folks start to address some of these things?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yeah, this is my favorite part. So I kind of recommend folks start to address some of these things. Yeah, this is my favorite part. So I kind of go in two branches right. So there's sort of the like thought exercise branch where we can do a lot of like cognitive kind of exercises there. I'll go into some of those.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:But where I would start depending on how the negative self-talk is impacting you is I would actually start internally with your nervous system and kind of go this like somatic route almost where, if you are feeling so anxious or you have so much self-hatred or you have such an intense reaction to some of the self-talk, logicking yourself out of it is not going to work. It's not going to work. It's not going to work. You're calling the brains out to lunch. When that happens, you have to find a way to bring it back, and so how we do that is people might roll their eyes at this, but the first place to start is always with deep breathing. Deep, true, paced breathing. That requires your nervous system to slow down. So I like the one where you inhale for four seconds, you pause for seven seconds, you exhale for eight seconds or you can do four seconds all around, but the goal here is to slow down your heart rate, to soothe your body, to soothe your nervous system, because that's what's going to activate your cognitive brain, being able to come back to you. And then you can try some of these other techniques, but the first step is always calm the body. So, whether that's through breathing or through grounding, literally like laying on the floor, is like true grounding. It's a really good one, feeling your body as it's on the floor. Using temperature to sort of soothe your body I don't know how many folks know this, but if you run your hands under cold water or hold ice or splash cold water on your face, it literally signals a reset to your brain, the same way that diving underwater does. And so, using temperature yeah, yeah, you're, you're naughty, I know you know that one, but like, yeah, cause it's so effective. And so, for listeners, really playing around with your sensory elements, with the goal of soothing that nervous system, so that we can then try some of these other exercises, such as the one with the reliable narrator trick.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Another one that I really like is just sort of name the thought you're having as a thought, and so this is an ACT technique called cognitive diffusion, where you sort of try to break away from the thought we were talking earlier, how they're so fused together.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:I have a thought, and I believe it's a fact Now we're just noticing thoughts as thoughts, for what they are. So when you notice one, instead of saying I'm a failure, you might say I'm having the thought that I'm a failure, or you might say I'm noticing right now that I feel like a failure. And so this shift in language does a couple of things. One it reminds you that the moment is temporary, it's not going to last forever, it's not factual, it doesn't have to define you all the time, it just defines this moment. And it's a thought, it's not a fact. I'm noticing the thought, that I'm having the feeling that thoughts and feelings are not facts, and so it gives us that space to really look at what that negative self-talk is. You know you said we have 60,000 every single day. Like you're creating space now between some of those, and that's able. That helps you look at it a little bit differently.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I'm kind of a visual person and so even as you were describing that, I was almost like walking myself through this exercise and almost kind of taking that thought and like putting it on a shelf somewhere or sort of like. It's almost like it kind of separates it from me.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yes, exactly that's the idea. You're externalizing it, you're sort of defusing from it. Another similar technique for those who really do like visualizing things, who are really visual learners, is to think of it as like a leaf, right? So you put your negative thought on a leaf and the leaf falls from a tree and you can't do anything about it. It's just happening. You're just observing it. You can't catch it. It's too far away, right, it's over there. So you're watching it happen. You're accepting and observing that it's happening, but you're not getting attached to it, you're not taking it and bringing it inside of you and saying this thought is true. And that can be a really helpful exercise for creating distance from the thought instead of being more fused with it. Another similar one is to imagine yourself driving a car. Right, we do a lot of visualizing here.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:You imagine yourself driving a car and those negative thoughts, that negative self-taught can be like an annoying backseat driver. Right, so that driver or that backseat passenger has no control over the car you do, but they're sure telling you where to go and what to do, and when you should break and what you should be doing. And so the idea here is to acknowledge that they're there. You know intrusive thoughts, you can hear them. They're loud, so you hear this backseat driver, but you're not letting them take over the car. You are still getting safely to your destination. You are still not becoming attached to what they're saying.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:So that you know, experimenting with these kinds of exercises, where the goal is to create distance, the goal is to remember that these thoughts are temporary states of being and that they're not facts that define you or have to define you at all. I love visualizations. I think those two are great. You know, the leaf exercise. I could really imagine like continuing to come back to that visualization of the leaves falling, you know, and I have a floating down a stream. Yes, I love that yeah.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I love that and knowing it's going to come again. I think that that's something that I tend to remind clients about too is like our thoughts come so quickly that you have to. Just it's almost like you have to go through some of these exercises, or go through just recognizing that these things are impacting you and then know that it's coming again. I think sometimes, in our desire for things to be good and peaceful and not have any issues, it's like well, I did that yesterday, or I already fought against that thought today and I wished that leaf well going down the river today already. And here I am again thinking that my partner is the fact that there was that research study even done shows that like people are not alone in experiencing this.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:It's, you know, part of the human experience to some extent. And also, this is a skill that we're learning, and not just a skill we're learning, but a lot of programming that we're unlearning and trying to do those things at the same time.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:It takes time, and so having patience with yourself is going to be important. I think a lot of times, people, negative thoughts can make us time travel right, either to like this catastrophic future that we don't want to happen and that's why we don't do things, or to like a past experience that was really painful, and what we want to do is really be mindful in the present moment. What is my thought trying to tell me?
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:What is?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:this anxiety trying to communicate with me? Like what can I take that brain's protective mechanism and turn it into something that's actually functional and helpful, because the way that it's coming across is not right? So there's a lot of empowerment that's available to us if we actually like, embrace curiosity with this and focus on that present moment. Also, one sort of like thing I wanted to throw in there that I didn't mention but wanted to, because this is often so much more accessible for people is to if negative self-talk is really something that's challenging for you to change. Imagine you're talking to a friend or your child or someone that you love and cherish and wouldn't be mean to, because so often the starting place for a lot of people can't be within themselves, it's just it feels too hard or too close. So if you start to practice that, you're building that language, you're building that compassion skill, you're building that awareness of your thoughts and challenging them, even if it's not quote unquote directed at you, and then you can work up to that.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I love that intervention. I think most of the time when I challenge people to say like well, would you? What would you say to a friend? Or would you say that to a friend, they're like well, no, but it's different for me and I love, like this continued push toward curiosity. And you know what is this thought trying to tell me, what is it communicating? And and I know that much of the work we do as therapists is helping people recognize themes, realizing that you might have 10 different repetitive negative self-talk phrases but they're all sort of loading on this same theme of your fear of failure, or that you're not enough, or that you are never going to be perfect or whatever that staying curious, with this mindset towards self-compassion allows us to be able to pull those themes together.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Right. And if those thoughts are coming from this, this protective brain, this well-meaning answer, whatever can we hear her advice, hear her feedback and then make our own decisions. That's good.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:That's good.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Right, because we always want to come back to, like, feeling empowered. No one else gets to have that kind of control over you. Right, you get to decide, like, how do I want? Well, I think our goal, what we're working towards, is being able to decide what can I do with this feeling or this thought? So it's there, I acknowledge it's there, but now what? And you really can get to a place where you make those choices for yourself, even if the negative self talk, you know, continues and it's okay to not do anything.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, like just see the thought as a thought and then move on. It's okay, it's just a thought, it's not a fact, it doesn't mean that you have to do anything with it.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yeah, if there's nothing else. I think that people are maybe going to take away from this, this repetitive thing that we're expressing, that that thoughts are not facts. They certainly don't have to be right and we actually have some agency over how we we interpret them. It's just right now, you know, so many people have automatic ways of interpreting information that are skewed to the negative, all those cognitive distortions and whatnot but we can learn to do that differently and then choose to let it go.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Okay. So we're talking about this in a way that might sound like we're talking like it's kind of simple and in some ways, some thoughts might be simple to work through this, but also like we're both trained, experienced therapists and psychologists who still do this every day, and so part of the power of therapy is that what we do in the gift that people bring to us in therapy is we teach them how self-compassion can work, and so I think what I want to sort of round out and then I'm going to ask you if there's anything else we missed that was on your list of things to cover today I want to round out that both Laura and I are saying this work may feel really hard, and if you've tried to do some of these things and it's not working, then your next step may be to find a therapist in your area who can help you so that you don't have to keep suffering from all of these negative thoughts.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:I would agree with that and I would also say that this work is incremental. So a lot of the feedback that I have gotten before from clients who are maybe really frustrated or who really struggle with this or like, is like I it still happens every day like it's I still have so much negative self-talk like I don't feel like I'm making any progress, and yet their awareness of when it's happening has increased.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Or perhaps they were able to shut it down like a few times that day, which is not nothing so it's not nothing yeah, I think, really being to your point earlier about realistic expectations and like recognizing that this is the process, this is the skill that we're learning, it's like when you go to the gym and you like, if you're committing to that sort of process, you kind of have to do it forever, right? Like you got to work out your muscles forever if that's something you want to do. So it's that similar idea of commitment to this no-transcript.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:You know, it's kind of that same idea.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:And you get that progressive overload over time right. Where like the more you do it, the more you, then, the more weight you can lift or the more reps you can do, or you see that incremental progress and this is the same thing. So, even if there's still some negative self-talk after working on this for a while, like that's normal because our brains are going a million miles a minute, right, we're always going to have a bunch of thoughts, but also like that doesn't mean you're not still progressing.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:And that doesn't mean that you can't still get some relief, which is better than none.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Yeah, I love that. That is such a good reminder and, as you think about kind of wrapping up today, is there anything we forgot today?
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:No, I don't think so. I think like the first step I would just recommend for anyone who's really wanting to start tackling this after this discussion is to recognize when you're having sort of a response in your body or recognizing, like practicing that awareness and mindfulness of how you notice negative self-talk showing up for you and what it feels like either in your body or in your brain, and that's going to help you kind of know where to go next for, like an intervention or a skill to practice, because there's there's so much right. So, really like starting with that place of curiosity, awareness what does it look like? How do I know when it's happening? What are the themes that keep coming up, as you said, all of those things.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Okay, so I know you have this great reflection journal. You have great social media on Instagram. You have a great website. Tell people how they can find you.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Yes, you can find me in all those ways. So my website is laurascrowlcswcom those ways. So my website is laurascrowlcswcom my first and last name and my credentials, and I do, obviously, advertise my therapy services there. But you can also go to my blog, even if you're not in California or if you're not looking for a therapist, and I post two articles a month just on different trauma, anxiety, mental health, self-compassion, et cetera kind of topics.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:You can also find my Instagram, laurascurllcsw, and I post a lot on there just different topics, different reels and posts and whatnot. There's a lot of great tips on there for things that you can start doing just at home. And, yeah, if you want a copy of my free reflection journal, it's got a lot of reflection exercises. A lot of journaling prompts a lot of really cool things. A lot of journaling prompts a lot of really cool things to start incorporating self-care and balance into your life in a way that feels realistic and doable for, like the average busy person. You can find that on my website or on Instagram by signing up for my newsletter.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I love that you have all this stuff that you're putting out, because I know that it's just relatable and practical, and so I took a whole sheet of notes today of things that are just so good and relevant, and so thank you for being here today. Laura, thanks for saying yes.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Thank you for having me again. We had so much fun the last time and we had so much fun again, so much fun again.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:I mean, it's like we're already done. It's the end of the episode and there are still so many things I want to talk about.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:And we got to do this seasonally it's every time. Yeah, I'm down.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:For sure.
Laura Sgro, Licensed clinical social worker:Okay, sounds great, it's a plan.
Dr. Beth Trammell, PhD, HSPP:Thanks for listening and until next time, stay safe and stay well.
