Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 112: Unlocking Healing Through Therapeutic Presence and Play: Insights with Barbara Sheehan-Zeidler
Can therapeutic presence and playfulness transform your approach to therapy? Join us as we explore this fascinating question with our guest, Barbara Sheehan-Zeidler, a seasoned EMDR clinician, IFS level two trained therapist, and sand play practitioner. Barbara delves into the integration of various therapeutic methods such as EMDR, IFS, somatic practices, and sand play, revealing how these tools equip clients to uncover unconscious feelings and promote adaptive healing. We also dive into the role of playfulness in therapy, not just for children but for adults too, and uncover insights from Jaak Panksepp's research on the essential role of play in our mammalian nature.
Ever wondered how to cultivate genuine presence and embodiment in your practice? In this episode, we contrast the common disconnection experienced in everyday life with the profound impact of therapist presence. Barbara discusses the critical role therapists play in modeling safety and regulation, offering practical strategies for maintaining embodiment amidst life's demands. We also highlight the surprising benefits of improv training for new clinicians, encouraging a shift from rigid checklists to authentic, responsive client interactions. Packed with valuable insights and personal anecdotes, this enriching conversation with Barbara Sheehan-Zeidler is a treasure trove for both seasoned therapists and newcomers alike.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
To learn more about Barbara and her services or to contact her, visit: https://www.creativeandcaringcounseling.com/
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel. I'm a psychologist and a professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the Masters of Mental Health Counseling program. I love to train students. I love working with students. I love mentoring students, but I also love working with kids and families, teachers, anybody who is in relationship with anyone else, to try to make words matter for good. My focus is to help folks be intentional with the things they say and the things they do, and I think that those things really matter, and so I am so thrilled that my guest is here with me today to talk about some of those kind of really foundational pieces of therapy and kind of how that impacts us as individuals, how it impacts our clients and, frankly, how it impacts the profession. And so, barbara, you're here today. I'm so happy you're here. It's been a minute before you and I reached out originally.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it's been many, many weeks. We are phenomenal people with lovely schedules and we collided together on your last day of scheduling, your last hour of scheduling. That's when I'm open. I am Barbara Shands-Eidler and I'm based out of Littleton, colorado. I am delighted to be here and talk with you and your audience about things that I'm wholeheartedly passionate about.
Speaker 2:Professionally, I am an EMDR clinician, both certified and a consultant and advanced teacher IFS level two trained, working on getting into level three as well, somatic IFS certified. I, additionally, am a sand player. I use lots of sand in my work because a lot of my adult clients we need to go from a bottom-up perspective, so we need to make the unconscious, conscious and creative and fun ways. And, last but not least, I'm completely a polyvagal nerd completely. When I was a girl, I grew up in New Jersey and Bruce Springsteen was the poster on my wall, and now the poster on my wall is none other than Deb Dana. So I am just just about all that. I love working with clinicians, I love teaching, I love working with my clients. And then in my personal world, I'm a grandmother and take such delight and luxury in that, and I have three children that turned into men. They aged me, they're like they aged.
Speaker 2:I'm like, wait, what happened to 36 years? I don't know. And I'm really so happy to be still married to my boyfriend of 40 years. So in my personal world, I'm full with abundance and joy and happiness. It's good, it's good.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. We are talking mostly today about presence, but as you were sort of introducing yourself, there were a few questions that came up for me and like your training, which is amazing, right, so you've got these amazing certifications and I wanted to see if you could. I think EMDR is growing and its popularity in terms of our field and people understanding that. I think IFS and somatic work maybe not quite as much, and then certainly I know people think about sand play with children, but can you talk just briefly a little bit more about the IFS, the somatic and the sand stuff?
Speaker 2:Yes, but just briefly, I'll try, I'll try, I'll try, I'll try. I just completed an all day training with Sandin adults and they play together so well, okay, so foundation is therapeutic presence, so standing there and meeting the client where they are and from there skillfully helping the client resiliently move to where they want to go. Consequently, I like to have all of those things you know, helping. I'm brain based, so helping the brain move from maladaptive to adaptive. Helping the client sense and feel and shift from I'm broken to wow, I survived and now I can heal. So with they all play together really, really well, in that very somatic sometimes a client that has no words, the sand is a beautiful way for them to find expression and in that place of expression see their story and then speak their story. And IFS, really normalizing I have a part that is just enraged and I have a part that just is completely exhausted, normalizing all the parts we have. And then with EMDR therapy, really normalizing.
Speaker 2:Emdr is based upon the idea of adaptive information processing. We adapt to survive, essentially. So when I talk about that and then weave in polyvagal theory, all of a sudden, this shame and self-loathing, it's like oh, what I'm like? Yeah, look at you, you are brilliant. And now we get to look at that together and undo it and recreate it. Are you in? So? And a lot of playfulness. There's a lot of playfulness in my room too.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that is really interesting, that last word that you bring up, playfulness, because I'm actually kind of in the middle of writing this manuscript on play and playfulness specifically in early childhood. I do a lot of training, a lot of consultation in early childhood spaces, which you might originally, or sort of like, automatically think oh yeah, there's a lot of playfulness in preschools or early childhood centers and I think as grownups we sometimes lose or maybe we don't lose it it just it isn't always readily available to us because we are flooded with all these other things that just keep us from being playful. You're breathing a lot, I can see you're. You're moving a lot. You're breathing a lot. Tell us what's happening. As I'm saying all those words, I'm looking for I'm looking for the book.
Speaker 2:I like books and apparently, oh, that's still in my travel bag. Do you know the research of Yach Panskepp? No, oh, yach Panskepp, p-a-n-k-s-e-p-p. Yach did research and he determined that we have seven affective neural circuits, that we are as a mammal. We are born with seven affective neural circuits and one of those, and so really quickly seeking rage, fear, lust, care, panic and bum-ba-da-bum, play, play, play. So keep that in mind that we're born cranial nerve right back there. We're born with these circuits to do these things. Whether you're a mouse or a human, you're a mammal.
Speaker 2:Now then let's switch over to EMDR therapy and Francine's idea about adaptive information processing, that we adapt to survive. I'll share it. Like in my childhood story, play was taken away because I had to adapt to survive. Life was serious, so I was serious. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. So play was taken away and then I do my own work and I can't stop playing. It's like I'm making up for decades of not playing. It's amazing, because that affective neurocircuit which was always there, it was somehow stymied or blocked or something like that. And now that I've done my work, I now feel and know it's safe to play again, because I was born to play Completely fascinating.
Speaker 1:It's totally fascinating and the other six things, I'm sure, also equally as fascinating and relatable. And what I love that listener, what you can't see is that what Barbara just did is she said what you see, what I saw and what I knew. What I knew and what I felt Actually you touched your head. So what I knew in my head, what I felt in my heart, was that I was able to do those things again and I spent a lot of time with a lot of clients kind of having them connect those two pieces a lot also. A lot of us kind of know in my mind I should be allowed to play. A lot of us know playing is good but feeling that is harder.
Speaker 2:Feeling safe yeah, Feeling safe when I talk about polyvagal theory, and I'm talking about the ventral vagal access. That's my phrase there it's safe to stay and play. It's safe to stay and be known. It's safe to stay and relax. And coming back to the sand, one of the reasons I have sand is again, you know, to make the unconscious conscious right. Sometimes psyche stores things away. It's like I just walk around feeling this way and I don't know why. So sometimes, if we can see, we can now create a new story, going from the implicit to the explicit, from the explicit to an experience. A new story, new narrative. So I have sand in there and every adult I work with has a child inside and they really like playing in the sand. And then there's their story from an adult mindset. Then we can recreate how that story ended.
Speaker 1:Okay, random question. I'm here. Okay, you have kind of a blended model of service in your work, right? So you do some telehealth and you do some in-person. Is it possible to do sand therapy through telehealth?
Speaker 2:You know, that's a great question and the answer is is yes, there are apps out there that the so it's. So the answer is yes, and I'm going to do a and there's an and coming, okay. So the answer is yes, there are apps out there. I think one of them is virtual sandcom. So it's this very two dimensional experience, right? But then what I do is I take the concept of sand and I'll just say to the client hey, next time you come in, create something. So. So I take the concept of sand and let the client create something. Maybe they'll create their own little sandbox and I watch it through the video, right? But you know? So there's those two ways. My, my and is the qualities of sand. That makes sand sand is that it is three dimensional. Yeah, yeah, I can hide things, I can build things up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I can hide things, I can build things up, I can. I can do so many things, I can move things around. So it's, it's there, it's there. It's just for me a very felt difference, for me Very felt difference. Well, and there is this sensory component to playing like with actual sand. Yeah, that, I think, is also important.
Speaker 2:I completely like when clients just pull the sand up in their hands and just let it fall through their fingers. It's as if they're doing their own self-regulation. Yeah, and watching how aggressively or softly or do they dig in or do they slide around aggressively or softly, or do they dig in or do they slide around. All of this, I think, is their nervous system talking in ways that help or regulating. That's a hypothesis I have as I bear witness to what's going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're leading right where we're headed right. So you're sort of there, you're bearing witness to like those are kind of phrases that I think we use in our field that really speak to this kind of therapeutic process that happens. And, honestly, when I thought about creating this podcast, one of the things was to pull back the curtain on the things that actually happen in therapy. You know, my goal for this is to bring mental health knowledge and ideas to people in the mainstream also has kind of turned into being something that fellow clinicians also sort of gain some insight. But this idea of therapeutic presence, bearing witness like this really is at the heart of what happens in the therapy room. And so can you talk through your lens of how you talk about kind of therapeutic presence? I mean, I know, because I've, I've, you know, kind of already started to get to know you a little bit. But would you explain that concept differently to a clinician than to a client? I want to sort of like dissect that a little bit. So just start wherever you want to start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm taking in what I explained differently to a clinician than a client. When I'm speaking with clinicians and colleagues or students, I would say I would talk about the importance of it that we are the anchor, we the clinician, we are the lighthouse, we are the anchor and I have this platform of almost an ethical responsibility as that person in that role to that client. Yeah, that's how much I believe in therapeutic presence and personal presence. Because if I am not anchored in my ventral vagal, if I'm not anchored in myself, self-energy, how is the client going to feel safe to go into the depths of their stories? So when I do speak with colleagues, I bring in that aspect of the role that we have in the room like that.
Speaker 2:So does that make sense? The difference there? Right? Yeah, and then if I'm talking with a client about their own presence, their felt presence, many of my clients are walk around very disembodied again, adapt to survive. I will think my way through. I will not feel my way through. So I'm very gentle as we come back together again, because that could be very scary, it could bring up old stories. So, the goal being with the client if it's safe, okay, I just want to caveat over there if it is actually safe. Sometimes it's not, but if it is safe to feel safe again, let's work toward that. And that is their story of getting back into presence, full embodiment, here and now.
Speaker 1:So how would a person identify? I guess I'm pulling this back because I'm sort of thinking to myself I have to like really stop myself to like reflect on moments when I'm not present. I just think we're so like trained to just go, go, go, and we're like so in our everyday lives. It's just so habitual that it just feels normal to sort of not be present. And so I'm thinking about that moment when people sort of step into therapy and we're asking them like to be present and that this is, you know, a safe place and what like, a like, a like. What a juxtaposition that is to like the rest of their everyday lives. And I think because I agree with you and this is such a core piece of just the foundation of all the rest of the work how do we do that to get the clients to be like bought into that idea when it's so contrary to what they do?
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm very excited to respond because it begins with the therapist. If I am staying very regulated and not to say that I stay serene, but I'm regulated yeah, I am embodied. So, as the client is sharing their story that maybe they've never said before, as the client is still sensing my energy field, right, because there's research that says we have this shared field together, right, and so we do have this shared energy together. Neuroception think Stephen Porges' concept of neuroception or the research of Hassan about the shared brain, shared space.
Speaker 2:So if I can stay in my presence by modeling to my client, I'm not getting overwhelmed by you. I'm modeling to my client right, where you are, I'm here too. I'm not verbally or verbally telling my client I'm here with you, you're no longer alone, which hopefully I'm here with you, you're no longer alone, which hopefully all of these verbal and nonverbal ways I'm communicating a deep sense of presence and safety and then, consequently, the client may inch or have the courage or really be brave to go into their own presence because they feel safe. So it begins over here and then let's pretend that we have really, really great rapport.
Speaker 2:I might, when the client is ready, because I pace according to the client's resiliency. If I outpace the clients, I've lost them, so I pace appropriately right. I might say to the client oh, I just noticed that breath right there. What are you noticing? As I bring attention to that breath, because if they're living this disconnected way, maybe they need a little support in the beginning of the noticing. And that's a very general way of bringing back in. I'm embodied and I'm present because it's safe to be present.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you said two things that I want to have you share more on? Okay, you've used this word embodied a couple of times. Tell us more about what that means. So those of you who can't see she like sort of like rubbing like the kind of top part of her chest near her neck, she's just like like. It's like you're feeling right now. It's almost like a word that you want to use all these nonverbals with.
Speaker 2:Yes, where's my sand? Where's my sand? What is embodied? Okay, true story. I thought I was embodied. I thought I was living an embodied life. I thought I was I. I knew my earlier years were not embodied, but then I did my trauma focused clinical work before I was a therapist and I was like Then, about 2021, 2022, I went to a somatic IFS retreat. I was like Jiminy Crickets is what I'll say here Killing the blank with whatever I now.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is a new level of embodiment. Yeah, so I think for me it's a progression and for me, so my experience is this I can actually feel gravity. I can feel the weight of my body, but not be weighted down. I can feel my breath. I'm feeling things. My breath is nice and slow and easy.
Speaker 2:Embodiment for me is when I'm not jumping ahead too far, just right here, right now. And if I do jump ahead, it's like oh, barb's what you doing, come on back over here. This is the moment. Embodiment is also for me of being deeply present in the moment, because that's all that exists, and so I feel like I've only been embodied since the last two or three years in this level of embodiment. Right, it's a progression. Or three years in this level of embodiment. Right, it's a progression. So as a child, like disembodiment. As a adult, better embodiment. As a more aged woman, even better, and I'm hoping for even more, okay. So how does that ebb and flow with like the pace of everyday life?
Speaker 2:I begin my day very intentionally, so I begin with an intention to be present, and for me, present and embodiment are like the same, very same. And so I begin my day with the intention and then the day's happening right. Oh, my gosh, true story, I'm full of true stories. I have a green light, goddess that, as I'm driving to work. And gosh, darn it if there aren't like 22 lights to get to the office, 22 lights. And if I get that first light, red, I'm Jiminy Cricket, jiminy Crickets, jiminy Crickets. So like, please, please.
Speaker 2:And I know that I'm not in my embodiment place and that's okay, that's okay, I'm doing something. It's okay that I am in my ventral vagal, but I'm also co-opting for my sympathetic. I'm doing something, it's okay. The thing is, when I get to the office, do I ground and be present, because I don't have to work, worry about all the lights. So in polyvagal theory, it's okay. Deb Dana would say remember my poster child, deb Dana. Deb Dana would say that staying in the ventral vagal is not possible.
Speaker 2:The growth edge is know where you are and know how to shift and move if you need or want to. So I knew that I was in my sympathetic. I knew I knew I was like I got that last hug from my grandchild and it's like, yep, I'm going to. I left 30 seconds late going to get the light. So be it, accepting it radically, get to the office and then come back up. I do my and I actually do put my hands in the sand to help regulate. So it's an ebb and flow throughout the day.
Speaker 2:The thing is, am I consciously aware? I have this little acronym that I teach ABC. Okay, abc stands for aware. Are you aware of where you are? Are you aware of your breath, your thoughts, your actions? Aware? B stands for breath. Breath is code for take a pause, breathe however you want to breathe. I do not ever say take a deep breath. Breath is pause. And then c make a choice in this moment. What is the choice you choose? To make mindfully, wholeheartedly, as opposed to unconsciously. And then those ABCs we determine our experience. De for bonus. In that way we can stay better regulated.
Speaker 1:I love all of that. I wrote it down DE for bonus, because I'm always looking for bonus. I like bonus points. Yeah, don't we all? I thought about the new clinician. I mean, if you think back to when you were a new clinician, your facial expressions are great. I wish we had video.
Speaker 1:Actually I don't because I look a hot mess. But for those of you who are missing out on you're missing out on Barbara's non-verbals, which I love. So I'm thinking about those new clinicians who I'm constantly reminding therapy, the best version of a therapist is not what they do, it's who they are, it's how they present. So I'm thinking about the new clinician, particularly when you were talking about that sort of embodiment, presence, all the things that you've been really sharing, and I think about those new clinicians who, in their mind, constantly thinking about what is the next question, what do I have to say next?
Speaker 1:Dr Tramiel tells me that I need to, you know, choose. You know I use this framework of like good, better, best. And so in therapy, there are good things that you can say. You know there are better things that you can say. In you know, there are better things that you can say in response to what a client is saying or doing in therapy. And then there are the best things. And so I'm picturing some of my students, or even some new clinicians, who are so focused in their mind about I'm in charge, or I have to be in charge, or I'm the one who's leading the session and I've got to make sure that I hit my 50 minute billable hour. And with all of that in their mind, like I just how do we encourage them to sort of soften or quiet or just kind of come back to that even ABC model you just shared?
Speaker 2:I so appreciate this question because I once upon a time was that baby clinician, yeah, and once upon a time I was like what's the book, what's? I have sort of a cool memory, I can look and see things, and so I remember my version of myself and I think that that it's a natural growth progression. I think it's very natural to want to do and say the right thing, yeah. And then there comes a very natural, organic space of I trusted myself in the moment, I trusted the process, and this just came out of my mouth. And when I'm talking to newer clinicians, and what was that like when it came out of your mouth, just that way, and they're like it was good.
Speaker 2:So, I think it's a natural progression. What I would say to encourage is get your consultation, have a mentor that it's really, in my experience and those that I speak with, very normal to be really in your head and notice when you're in your head and can you bring yourself to your body and be right there, just be right there. It's a very natural thing. In EMDR therapy there's this because EMDR has things to do, and there's this phrase about going from an EMDR technician to the EMDR clinician. Yeah, it's both art and a science, yeah, and so I truly celebrate when the young clinicians trust themselves in the process and go for it, because there is no absolute to this really creative, spontaneous. I also recommend believe it or not, take improv classes. I do, I do. I recommend go take improv classes because then you're leaning to think on your feet, respond to the moment. Think on your feet, respond to the moment Isn't that fun?
Speaker 1:It's so true. I mean, I think about some of my undergrads and I have them record in the intro to counseling class. They just are doing like listening exercises. Right, we're not doing counseling in the undergrad, obviously, but I'm having them just practice listening and reflecting and I constantly am like you didn't actually respond at all to what they said. You just like asked your next question on the list. You know, I think about this improv class. You actually have to stay present in the moment to listen and then respond.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, Beth, maybe you could start an improv class with your curriculum.
Speaker 1:That's actually not a bad idea. I know it's actually not a bad idea.
Speaker 2:It's actually. Are you real You're, you're, oh, you're serious. No, I'm serious with you, okay.
Speaker 1:You're like, yeah, I'm going to meet you there, I don't know. But there is like this idea of them like just getting out of the doing all the time, right Cause I think that's going to be their natural thing to be like here's all the lists of things I have to do on the intake and here's all the things I have to do, you know, on session three. But really it's still staying grounded in that moment.
Speaker 2:That moment. We only have that eternal moment. We don't have the past, we don't have the future. We have this eternal now, and what we can do is create new relationship to the past or the future from the now. Yeah, that's good, right, and so? So, yeah, I'm going to be watching for the curriculum coming up. Improv with Dr Beth coming your way.
Speaker 1:It's so funny. Like I need another project. Oh, okay, like changing curriculum, I definitely don't need another project, but I do love this idea. I might actually have an exercise in one of our classes.
Speaker 2:It really. It is a thing. It really is a thing. And then we begin to trust the moment, trust the process, trust the self. It also teaches us to really be attuned. I loved what you said. They didn't respond to what the client said. They were going through a checklist. Yeah, and that is not our work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is not I know but I love your initial response to this question for new clinicians that we've all started there and we all had the checklist, we all had the you know binder of worksheets with the things that we thought were the interventions that we were going to do, you know, and so it's okay.
Speaker 2:Let's normalize it. Let's completely normalize it with the idea, because I also don't think they like it when I talk to younger clinicians. I don't, I don't want to have to look at my sheet. I'm like, and one day you won't, One day when you're ready, you'll just do it and that will be the beginning of the next level of your, your journey, your progression journey, your progression Right, exactly, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:So I know, okay, so we're, we're coming to the end, which seems like way too fast. I know it just means that you'll come back. So that's great, I love it. Actually, you like how arrogant I was. I was just like, yeah, she's going to come back.
Speaker 2:I would love it to me. It's okay, you tuned in. You read oh, if you could see, beth, she's putting her head, her head down in her, the palm of her hand she's looking down. It's what is that called a palm here?
Speaker 1:the forehead slap every right slap, that's what it is.
Speaker 2:I don't know what that emoji is, but I do that one a lot.
Speaker 1:What was I thinking?
Speaker 2:you were thinking you're amazing.
Speaker 1:Oh, so much fun here tell people how they can find you. You can find me.
Speaker 2:My name is barbara sheehan zeidler. It's super long and my business? It's super long and my business is creative and caring counseling. Okay, also super long, also kind of long, but if you Google barbracouncilscom, it'll take you everywhere. I knew I had to do a shortcut. Barbara Councils will get you to my website and on my website you'll find my Facebook page. I'm really my professional. Facebook page is most active, and on my website you're going to find all the places where I've done podcasts or video chats or things like that. So they can find me that way and I am in Colorado. Or, if you go to the IFS or the EMDR directories, you can find me that way too. Yeah, but that's simple and easy. Directories you can find me that way too. Yeah, but that's simple and easy. Barbara Councils Barbara Councils who I am, and what I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing, and I'll make sure that I link it in the sort of description. And you've been so lovely. I mean, just sharing space with you is just so lovely. You actually remind me of another one of my favorite guests, maureen Clancy, who just just you share space with people and they just bring something good out of every moment, you know, and so I'm just grateful for you for being here this morning.
Speaker 2:I completely feel you and I thank you for inviting me on to play with you, while sharing information, hopefully encouraging, but mostly what a great way for me to start the day over here. So, no, really thank you. I. I would love to do this again. This has been I seek fun, so thank you.
Speaker 1:This is amazing. I love it. All right listener. Thank you for being here and until next time, stay safe and stay well, Ciao, Bye.
