Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 113: Unveiling Substance Use Disorders: Diagnosis, Bias, and Recovery Insights with Chrissy Rife
Unlock the secrets of diagnosing and treating substance use disorders with insights from Dr. Beth Trammell, psychologist and professor at Indiana University East, and Chrissy Rife, a licensed professional counselor. Together, they illuminate the complexities of recognizing substance use disorders, focusing on the DSM-5 criteria and the profound effects substances like alcohol and marijuana have on mental health. Chrissy brings her extensive experience to the conversation, sharing the hurdles therapists face when identifying and addressing substance use issues in clients.
Navigate through the biases that cloud both users and clinicians in the sphere of substance use. This episode looks into the challenges of assessing impairment and the mental state of users who don't view their substance habits as problematic. Dr. Trammell and Chrissy offer invaluable strategies for clinicians to identify and manage their biases, while also guiding listeners on how to holistically evaluate the effects of substance use on one’s mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health.
Explore the nuanced signs of alcohol use and denial, along with the significant social contexts influencing these habits. Chrissy discusses the Stages of Change model, shedding light on the various stages from contemplation to maintenance, and what it means to reach one's "rock bottom." The episode finishes with a heartfelt discussion on supporting loved ones through addiction, balancing the fine line between support and enabling, and emphasizing the importance of compassionate care.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
To learn more about Chrissy and her work with sobriety, contact her, or buy her books, visit: https://www.fosteringyourwellness.com/
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tremone. This is Things you Learn in Therapy. I'm glad you're here today. I am a psychologist and I'm actually a professor of psychology at Indiana University East. I got promotion this summer, which was awesome, and now I can kind of take a little bit of a breath as a faculty member. If you might relate to that. That is mostly relieving, but also exciting, and so I'm the director of the Master's in Mental Health Counseling program there, and so I train graduate students and I do a little bit of work in our undergrad department. So that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 1:My focus is to make words matter for good. That's my website, and I just focus on helping people be intentional with the things they say and the things they do to build connection with people around them. I am really excited that my guest is back again for another episode, but this episode actually might slide a little bit differently than the last time you were here, but I'm excited about where we're headed. I know this is your area of expertise and I know that, yeah, I just know that you're passionate about this work just really doing good work and so I love that. This season I get to interview folks who just continue to do the good work that they're passionate about, and, chrissy, you're one of those people, so thanks for being here. It's wonderful to you know. Share this when you say passion.
Speaker 2:It truly is like when you talk about something and you light up. It's like what lights you up? This lights me up, yeah, yeah. So my name is Chrissy Reif. I'm a licensed professional counselor in the state of Pennsylvania and I actually received my master's from Indiana University of Pennsylvania in see, that was 2016.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, Got a little connection there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, I guess, a fun fact. I was thinking about it when you were talking about what you do. I mean I went to school. I was, let's see, 44. I went to get my master's for clinical mental health counseling and my very first class was a wellness class, right. So wrote a paper and whatnot, got it back and across the front it said this is not APA format. I'm like what the heck is APA format? I mean I'm sure therapists will appreciate that because I had no clue. I was like, I mean, I went to school in early 90s and didn't really know too much about that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's, especially in our field, the thing that I try to always prepare my students for is that the work in graduate school is so different than undergrad, so different. But for us it's also like I have to teach you all the academic content right, like the theories and the techniques, and you know the history of counseling techniques and the history of counseling, but then I also have to teach you how to be a counselor In two years. We have to really get you reworked and I think people kind of underestimate that second side of getting you to be a therapist. I think they underestimate how much it is.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And depending when you're coming in there age-wise, I mean me showing up in my 40s I had experience like wisdom and life experience, but then I was like, oh, what is all this? I haven't written papers or done this or that, so I struggled a little bit with that, but yeah, but probably the other side of it you were pretty good at because you had already been challenged. People had already given you feedback.
Speaker 2:I had a lot I could pull from right. I think that definitely too. What makes someone successful is their just own experiences and pulling from that.
Speaker 1:All right. So today your passion is substance use. I mean, you have multiple passions actually, and the last time we kind of touched on some of your passion for work with women, in particular around ADHD. But today I'm excited for you to share some of this passion around the work you do with substance use. Because I think for folks who aren't trained in how to identify, or I think it's first the identification of hey, maybe this is kind of a problem. But then to like confront a client about hey, it sounds like this might be a problem, or how do I even pay attention or recognize? And so we're going to dig into all those things. But let's just kind of pull all the way back and start with. You know, the DSM-5 has now, so our book of diagnostic disorders has lumped everything together into sort of substance use disorder and then we kind of specify right, what does our book, our DSM, kind of say is how we would first recognize or diagnose like hey, you have a substance use disorder.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, too, they're calling it alcohol use disorder as well. Right, I mean, that's also thrown out there, instead of just specifically saying alcoholism, which I think is I like that terminology personally. I mean, there's the criteria, I mean a lot of people. I mean, the biggest thing is how does it impact? What are the consequences? What's going on in your life, the consequences of your drinking. A lot of times people don't recognize anxiety, the depression, all the things that come from the actual drinking. I mean people may be drinking, thinking oh, I'm stressed out, I'm sad, this is helping me, when it's really not so. I think that's where things get kind of blurred and someone may not a clinician, may not think to ask well, oh, how much are you drinking? Or how much are you using marijuana? Because that's pretty prevalent too, because it's medical or legal right.
Speaker 1:I know it's legal now, so why should we even worry about it? I know we have. You had your eye roll moment, so let's go, let's dig into that. We're already there. You had your eye roll moment, so let's go, let's dig into that we're already there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so frustrating. I don't think it's had enough research, I guess more so people. I don't think people investigated the people that made the rules. I don't think investigated it enough. It's really hard to kind of regulate. I mean, think about getting pulled over. Okay, you get pulled over alcohol. Yeah, okay, you can get tested, but if you're high you need the blood work you need it's. It's a little more involved. And then, depending how long it's been since you've smoked, yeah, I mean there's that you know the half-life, or you know in your system you could have smoked a week ago and then still had some. So, yeah, it's, it's tough. And a lot of businesses aren't accepting of it either. Yeah, right, as you know. No, just they're not going to tolerate it. So I mean there's that risk too.
Speaker 1:When you have somebody who is like you know, I just don't see what's happening right now as a problem. So the consequences.
Speaker 2:Well, again, it's their consequences, what's going on in their life. A lot of times I'll say, okay, well, what would it look like if you had a problem? I think that's the biggest thing to find out what their mindset is about having a problem with alcohol.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:You had talked a little earlier too, about your own. You know we all have our own views about, oh, is this someone who might or no? So it's looking at our own bias, because I even do it myself. Sometimes if I go through an intake and I'm like, okay, alcohol, caffeine, use, and then I think the next one's marijuana. And I think, oh, there's no way, I'll say that to myself. And then they're like, oh, yeah, I do it. I'm like, oh God, I can't. I got to stop doing that. I got to stop assuming that this person, that stop assuming that this person.
Speaker 2:So it's asking them all, right, well, you don't think it's a problem right now, but look what's happening. You maybe you know you can't sleep. You can't not sleeping. You know there's so many things the anxiety, the, the heart palpitations, there's so many things that can mimic even withdrawal from alcohol. Yeah, that someone's not recognizing that could be related to stress. Like, think it's, oh, it's stress related, I'm not sleeping, I'm not this. Well, that's because you're drinking. Right, it's like it's this vicious cycle. And then they're like, well, I'm taking my medication, you know my anxiety meds or my depression medication. Well, it's not going to work if you're drinking. That's the other thing. It's like trying to get them to understand if you take away the alcohol, like, have you really tried to take that away? It's a poison, it's a toxin and some people just don't understand because it's like everybody does it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like marijuana, in some states it's legal. And so if I can downplay in my own mind negative impact and because I'm sort of in it and I feel positive impact, right, Like I feel less stressed after three drinks, or I feel less stressed after three drinks or I feel less stressed after I smoke, and so I think that's another reason why it's so hard to convince people. Because it's an effective coping mechanism. It's just not good for you.
Speaker 2:And, on top of it, there's probably a good chance that if you have that attitude about the drink and the drug, you probably don't have a DUI, you probably have a job, you probably pay your bills, your relationships are still okay. There's been no real consequence. So again, right. There is another layer of why someone's going to be like I don't know wrong, what's the big deal? Yeah, I'm, I still function. You know, I can do this, I do that, I take care of what I need to take care of my responsibilities.
Speaker 1:I do love the question like what would it look like to have a problem with alcohol? What would it look like to have a problem with caffeine? What would it look like to have a problem, right, I think, asking a person that, and then my guess is that they might say some sort of like big, vague things like well, I guess my partner would be upset with me a lot, or you know, and then you might be able to challenge some of those to be like well, isn't your partner upset with you a lot? Isn't your partner saying you probably should drink less, isn't it? You know, you've mentioned before that you don't want to be. And there are the assessments.
Speaker 2:Yeah To the willingness to ask them. Hey, do you want to take this? I have this assessment. Why don't you look at it and see if you can answer any of these questions? And kind of just throwing that out as just take a look at it and see. You know. Or look at this website, see what you find on there. A lot of times you know when's the last time you went to your doctor? Have you had a discussion with your doctor about how much you drink? That's the other kind of throwing that out there, cause I try to also focus on you know as a whole. We're mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. However, what you know, however, you're defining that. So, in all of our areas, are you taking care of yourself and what does that look like? Because they're all impacted.
Speaker 1:Well, I love. I mean, what we had kind of talked about before we got started and you just alluded to it and I want to kind of bring it back is that idea of bias for us as clinicians, my view of even what someone with a substance use disorder or substance use problem would look like, and that you know I admitted to you and I'll say it here as we're kind of on air that I've had clients where I, just because of my bias, I just didn't even ask the question you know, and then it came up later that I was like well, dang, I needed to ask that question before because when I thought it looked like I was like oh no, I'm not even going to ask about that question, or maybe I asked that question and they downplay it and I believe them and so I don't follow through with asking more follow-ups.
Speaker 1:Like okay, well, you say you drink a little bit, what does that? Mean oh well, I drink a case of beer on the weekend, well, okay.
Speaker 2:Maybe not a little bit, I don't know. And even and I've shared this before to my own personal history I've been sober for 12 years and I've shared this before to my own personal history. I've been sober for 12 years. So, prior to getting sober, it's like I knew I had a problem, but I didn't know how to get help and I, you know, would go to the doctor because I was, I would be experiencing some kind of whatever issue with my stomach or whatever, and I would hope that they wouldn't be asking me questions. I'm like oh yeah, I drink socially, so I was doing it myself.
Speaker 2:So to recognize that, that's kind of why you know there's a life experience, a personal life experience. When I'm talking to somebody, it's like I can pick up those signs, you know when they're like oh yeah, I only drank here or there. You know just some of the things they say. You can tell yeah, I mean, the biggest thing is denial. Sometimes you're not ready to say you know, I, I really like my three drinks and this to unwind and it's not something I want to get rid of.
Speaker 2:I hear that a lot too yeah like okay, well, if that's where you're at right now, right, there's been no real consequences. But it's also causing the anxiety. Right, it is a factor, but sometimes people aren't ready to, you know, address it.
Speaker 1:Yep, okay. Well first, congratulations on 12 years. Thank you, yeah, thanks for sharing that, and it's hard work, you know, and so I just appreciate you sharing that and want to celebrate that with you. Let's go into how could a clinician kind of recognize some of those things, especially if they're maybe a newer clinician or someone who maybe doesn't have a ton of experience with substance use within, kind, of their client population?
Speaker 2:I think it's just finding out when they're drinking, maybe asking them why they're drinking at that time. Have they tried to not?
Speaker 1:Have they ever?
Speaker 2:thought about how it impacts them, like how do they feel the next day? Just even you know, what do you know about alcohol? Like, have you ever? It's almost like to.
Speaker 2:A lot of times I like to find little analogies, like think about when you eat too much sugar right, you eat too much ice cream, or you eat too much something greasy how do you feel afterwards? Yeah, usually not good. So I kind of like might throw that in too like you know, sometimes think about how you're feeling after you have those three drinks. Or you might you know what's going on, to kind of get them to look at it differently, through a different lens. Or even saying too do you know anyone in your family or your friends that you think drinks? Do you hang out with people that are drinking as much as you?
Speaker 2:Because you'll find that going on as well when you're with girlfriends or family members, because it can be part of the family system too, like, oh, we drink it every birthday, every holiday. I mean, that's another factor to throw in there, because then you, it's like I don't have a problem, everybody else does it, my whole family does it, my girlfriends, we go to wineries, we go to here, we go to there. So it's just kind of really paying attention to what they're saying and you. You come up with a picture of how much the alcohol plays a role in their life in their life.
Speaker 1:I've had experiences with people who are like well, I'm not the angry kind of drunk, I'm the happy, silly kind of drunk, and so that's better In the moment, but it could turn.
Speaker 2:It will turn. Let's put it that way. It eventually turns.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think about all those narratives that we have around it. Yeah, go, what were you thinking?
Speaker 2:So I was going to say so. Right, there is a great example. If they're saying, well, I'm the happy blah, blah, blah drunk, then the next question would be like okay, so what would an? How would you look like an angry drunk? Like what would that look like? What would you be doing? Like, would it be screaming your head off, or would it just be having an attitude? So what does that mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So when they verbalize it and they're like, oh well, maybe I am an angry drunk sometimes, like in their head, it's almost like sometimes you have to plant the seed for them. They have to figure it out themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's the thing is. So it's like when they say this, like, okay, what would it look like if I had a problem? Oh well, if I got a DUI or if I lost my job, all right, six months down the road they come back to you Well, I got a DUI, so they've already established what the problem was. So then you have a willingness for them. Then it's like oh, do you remember when you said this? And then they're like oh yeah, oh yeah, I do remember that.
Speaker 2:But I still have my job Like, so some people will do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they'll come back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, I haven't lost my job yet. That happens, it truly does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, rationalize all day long you know, rationalization is a great defense mechanism. That you know, I, I wish that I could say I don't, I don't use, but I certainly do also Absolutely. And so as you think about those folks who continue to push back right, like I just really don't have a problem, and you're sort of like, well, okay, let's think about it this way, and they're like, yeah, but I still have this and I still have this and I still have this.
Speaker 1:Is there a point in either the session or the course of treatment that you sort of are like, okay, we're just going to not. If you're not ready, then do we focus on something else, or do we just say, hey, come back when you're ready?
Speaker 2:I actually did have someone who recently, within the last year, knew they had the issue but wasn't wanting to do anything about it kind of thing. So it was like I felt like we were going in circles and it would be like one of those things. Well, this is going on in my life right now. Well, you do know that the alcohol does, you know, like just those kinds of things like there's like always coming, you come back to that and come back to that, but it and you just kind of work around it because they know I think they truly know what the real issue is. And that's the thing too. Sometimes I find myself I'm so passionate that I'm like do you have any idea how great your life would be if you're not drinking?
Speaker 2:It's like I want to scream it and be like if you could just give yourself some time without the alcohol and this and that. But you can't, you just can't. And sometimes I have to take a step back and get to the point of okay, well, how do you want to use these sessions? Do you just want to talk? How can we support, how can I support you? It's hard. And some other things I want to mention too that a lot of times people don't recognize at least signs physically are. Depending on how much you're drinking, you can tell the puffiness in their face, the redness. A lot of times you'll see people with a red nose, red cheeks, red ears, tips of ears. That can always be a sign to just read in the face. Yeah, if you start looking at pictures, I can see it because I, for so long you know, can recognize it. But that can be an indicator to just physical appearance. Sometimes they can even look grayish, just run down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just sort of looking at when I was in training a hot minute ago, actually one of the one of the resources that we used, and I'm curious because I kind of hear sort of nods to this. And I'm curious if you ever talk with clients about the stages of change model. With I mean it's old, I mean I saw, oh yeah. With I mean it's old, I mean I saw Petrasca and D Clemente in the late 70s, early 80s or something came up with this sort of six stage model of change that I still think about even in the work I do. But it did always seem to be true with substance use disorders too.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely, I think. I mean that was the main factor too. I think they use the stages of change with their readiness, right, Someone's readiness to change. I mean the pre-contemplation, contemplation, you know, action, maintenance. I think in general, anyone could experience that as well. Right, it definitely works well. But yeah, you have to be, you know, pre-contemplation is no idea, right, yeah, it's just nothing. And then contemplate is like, oh, okay, yeah, and then preparation is next. I always forget that oh yeah, but yeah, me too, that one, and then they're ready to.
Speaker 1:They're gonna think about it in the next month yeah, yeah, right so, right so.
Speaker 2:And then maintenance. I mean truly that if someone who decides to be sober, they, they will always be in the maintenance stage. Yep, Always, cause it's you're always, no matter what, working on your recovery. But your recovery will look different at different stages. To 12 years in I'm doing things differently than I did year one. Yep, anything I do for my self care is for me and my recovery. So that's kind of how I look at it, that way.
Speaker 1:All right, so we've talked about a couple of things. Let's shift a little bit to say We've talked about a couple of things. Let's shift a little bit to say maybe there's a listener who isn't a clinician but they are. Like I've kind of sometimes wondered that I might have an issue, but I don't want to talk to my doctor about it. Or how would I know, like what is my doctor going to do? He's just going to tell me to quit drinking. So I know I, just I'm not quite ready to do that. What would be some signs that a person might have an issue? Like what are some of those consequences? And then I guess if you could share a little bit about this idea of rock bottom, because it feels like it comes up a lot in the substance use world, and so can you talk about kind of those two things a little bit sure first of all, if someone's saying I think I have something's going on, I may have a problem, something right, they probably do the initial yeah.
Speaker 2:Then something's going on for them to think, oh, maybe I am drinking too much. If it's, I'm waking up feeling like crap or I'm not remembering things I did or said, or missing work or whatever it may be. Again, consequences have to be. I don't know if self induced is the right word, but you have to figure out what your consequences are. Yeah my consequences look a lot different than your consequences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like self identified almost.
Speaker 2:Sure, yes, yes, to me it's, you know, and that comes into rock bottom. Then, okay, do you have to hit rock bottom? Not necessarily. Yeah, can be, we would like to cushion it. Let's put it that way. Yeah, you're, let's cushion that rock bottom. So if you have someone in treatment or therapy and they're like I'm wondering if I have a problem, okay, so how do we cushion? Or look at your drinking or drug use, do you want to try some harm reduction? I mean, I think the harm reduction is okay Once you're trying to figure out if it really is an issue. Yeah, there may be some people that just drink too much during a specific time and they never do it again and, yes, they're out there. However, I think there's more who do have a problem than than not. So it's just figuring that stuff out. I mean, you're rock bottom, what's your rock bottom?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what does that look like? I mean, I think that comes back to sort of that question you asked at the beginning of what would it look like to have a problem, and then what would it look like to be rock bottom?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Is it getting arrested, is it? I just read this morning that Tyson food, the CEO, was arrested. He's like 34 for a DWI and it's like this happened two years ago. It's like is you know he's? Is this enough for him? Now? I mean, is this going to be? Is this his rock bottom? Why was two years ago not a rock bottom? So that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Nobody knows Yep, and it's also personal right. I love what you said, that it's like what it matters to you matters to you.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean, I've worked with people who had one DUI and they're like oh my gosh, I am done. I've had people who have had numerous and they're still going at it. Done, I've had people who have had numerous and they're still going at it. And then you're talking about who's enabling your behavior. Right, you also have that layer that plays a role in the problem, because guess what? Let's say you have a woman who's like I'm wondering if I'm drinking too much and I would like to stop. But you know what? My husband drinks just as much as I do, or if not more, and we're drinking buddies and that's how they connect. So then they're like well, if I'm not drinking, I'm not talking to my husband or we're not hanging out or even the girlfriend thing with that Like, oh, all my friends drink.
Speaker 1:Every time we go somewhere we're drinking, so you know it's interesting because it's there are consequences to both right. There's consequences to continuing to drink and connect with your husband, and then there's consequences to if you're not going to drink and then you don't connect with your husband and you don't replace that behavior are you talking about replacing the drinking or the connecting? Replacing and connecting yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you have to look at it too, are you? Why are you only connecting with your husband when you're drinking? Yeah, so then that brings in the whole other layer yeah, yeah can we connect without drinking? Yeah, because you'll find a lot of friendships fall off then too. Yep, if you're not, and even relationships I mean I've seen that too, because that's what brought them together is the partying, and it can also then kind of be the demise, because that's how they're connecting.
Speaker 1:Yep, okay, and I guess we should say, like, if it's a connecting thing with the people you love and you don't have consequences, that's okay, right? I think there's a lot of people who may have.
Speaker 2:Again, it's all about the consequences. It's all about you know, is this, do I have to look at this? Is this a problem for me? Is something going on? I mean, it's like even with food. Okay, I'm eating this every day. Is it a problem? Oh wait, I'm getting heart disease. Now I'm getting. My cholesterol is going up, so maybe it is a problem?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but maybe in moderation it's not. Maybe this is how I connect with someone. I am able. There are people out there who can have a glass of wine or half a beer and not drink the rest of it. So, yeah, there are people yes, absolutely who can do it. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Okay, you mentioned harm reduction. Can you just explain to listeners what that means?
Speaker 2:Basically it's just you kind of reduce the harm of you know what you're using. So if you're like drinking three a bottle, let's just say you're like, okay, I drank a bottle every night of wine. Maybe then it's like, okay, let's reduce that harm to yourself. Let's try half a bottle, right, let's. It's kind of like a step down approach. If you will like reduce your harm, the harm that you're for yourself, kind of even to like with cigarettes or marijuana or something like that, let's kind of see how we can reduce that. And then what's going to happen? Something to mention too. I want to mention this right now if anyone is drinking extensively and quite a bit. Want to mention this right now If anyone is drinking extensively and quite a bit it's very dangerous just to stop drinking.
Speaker 2:If you are drinking half a bottle, a bottle of wine daily, it's extremely dangerous. So anyone who wishes to stop cold turkey like that definitely needs to talk to their doctor. Some people experience withdrawal symptoms and there's risk of seizure and things like that. So I do want to say that, but definitely talk to your doctor. Some people experience withdrawal symptoms and there's risk of seizure and things like that. So I do want to say that, but definitely talk to your doctor if you're like you know what, I'm drinking too much and I'd really like some help medication management, yep to stop.
Speaker 1:That's great. I love that you shared that, because I think you know listening this may be someone's wake up call, you know, just saying like hey, you know what? I think I need to do this and you shouldn't do it alone?
Speaker 2:Definitely not. I mean, the thing is is I'm sure I myself have numerous times stopped and I felt like crap. I mean it's like you feel like crap and I know, prior going into rehab myself, it was like okay, do you need to do detox? Because that's typically the route and I had myself not experienced any extensive symptoms from that. But yeah, it's just something that people don't understand, that you can. There could be grave consequences from just stopping cold turkey with that. And also I think it's the benzodiazepines too.
Speaker 1:We've talked about some of the kind of physical things you mentioned earlier, this idea of mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. So when you think kind of holistically, what are other things that come up in this work around, maybe that mental, emotional, spiritual realm and working with folks with substance issues?
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of times I mean it's a coping. We use alcohol as a coping mechanism. I mean people can can use food, people can use chaos, relationships, any of that right it's, whatever your choice is kind of thing. It's like alcohol is just the symptom of something much deeper, yeah, and it just comes down to what do you kind of you're either numbing something or you're trying to feel it's. Basically those are the two things that are going on. It could be a pattern. I mean people don't start out like I'll speak from myself. At 14 is when I started drinking. I didn't start out saying, oh, I'm going to become someone who's got a problem with alcohol. I mean, granted, my dad had a problem with alcohol and died very young. He was only 33. He died of liver failure I was two years old. So I knew growing up that there was always that genetic component, but I didn't set out to say like, oh, yeah, that's going to be me.
Speaker 2:But then after a while it like kind of just you know it's your addictive and yeah, and it's your coping skill and it's you don't know how to stop. It's learning how to live your life without the substance. Like, are there other? What can you do for self care to figure out how to function without it? Because a lot of times people are like I can't imagine not drinking, like truly, yeah, I mean think about even yourself. Like, say, you go out with girlfriends, do people feel comfortable not drinking? Yeah, do you feel like you're missing out? Do you feel like like wait a minute, I'm going to try those? You know little, whatever. Wine, um samples or the beer I don't know what they're called um little things. Yeah, classes, right you see, that, um, i't know.
Speaker 2:It's taking a look at it and you know what is it? I guess, when you talk mentally, emotionally, spiritually, it's what are you doing for yourself so that you don't need that, I guess, in your life? Why do you feel a need for that? Why is that the go-to? And then it's just looking into okay, well, that's what my mom did, or that's what we always do, that's what our families do, this is what my husband does. It's like why am I doing this? Sometimes we're just why am I drinking? It's like your go-to, yep, like why am I doing this?
Speaker 1:Yep, I've heard from folks who like with smoking or drinking. It's like well, what am I supposed to do with my hands? You know what do I do when my coworker and I connect over the smoke break. You know it's like how do I learn.
Speaker 2:I love that question like learning to live your life without that substance and it is uncomfortable to like make those changes and then sustain them Absolutely, and that's what why it's so hard in early recovery and that's why it's so important that recovery needs to be a step down process. I mean it is you know you go to a treatment. There needs to be more for people to stay be successful. That's what it's about. It's like you feel really raw, you feel uncomfortable in your own skin that's the best way to describe it. You will talk to people in recovery and when I say I don't feel comfortable in my skin, they will get that like that yeah, totally. It's just. You're like what do I do? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I want to do myself. Yeah, it's like the first time you did. I remember the first time I had a dance, like and not have alcohol, I was like all right, I feel really. I went to a wedding, I think it was. I'm like all right, I feel really silly. Yeah, I mean, why should I feel silly, dancing without you know? But it's the truth. Think about it.
Speaker 1:Yep, how often do you dance without something, unless you're a professional dancer, and that's just what you do. Most of the rest of us don't just dance sober yeah, exactly. I mean, it's still fun. I yeah, but yeah right, I, yeah, I, I always think it's fun, but the yeah, there's something to it that you just feel a little like vulnerable um having, yes, great that's.
Speaker 2:That's it right there very vulnerable, and that, I think, too, is a reason why it's a coping skill. I don't want to be vulnerable, or I do want to be vulnerable. It's kind of just like picking all of that apart. It's like like peeling that onion. What are we going to find?
Speaker 1:And it's hard and drinking or smoking or using is a lot easier.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely, it's familiar. It's familiar, but then, in the same breath, it's something you don't want to do, but it's so familiar and you can't imagine your life without it. It's your best friend. It truly is. Yeah, it's like it's my little secret too. That's the other thing.
Speaker 1:Once you verbalize that, oh yeah, I have a problem, then everybody knows and you're like, oh god, I gotta stick with this yeah, I gotta like people are gonna try to hold you accountable oh yeah, you'll find that too right.
Speaker 2:So the difference too. One thing I want to say is, like individual therapy and working with someone individually who doesn't really realize they have a problem, it's definitely a lot harder. It's great when you're in group therapy, doing group therapy in an agency that's specific for treatment, that is. You can really do a lot of great work there because you can. You can go a lot deeper and a lot quicker because they're there for a short amount of time.
Speaker 2:So, that's definitely something I missed, going from group to individual therapy and working individually. I mean, if you have someone who's willing like, yeah, I do have a problem, it's great, but then otherwise it's challenging.
Speaker 1:It's challenging. It's challenging work. So, as we wrap up, two things is there anything that you sort of didn't get to say, that you like? I want to make sure I share this, and then I know you have both kind of a journal and a guide kind of on your website, and so tell people how they can find some of those things and your website as we kind of close today.
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, one thing too when you talked earlier letting people know that not everyone will have a problem, I think there is definite truth to that, right. But I think it's also just looking at your own use and really evaluating that to figure that out. You don't want to automatically assume that, oh, you're drinking so much these past three months, well, maybe something's going on. All right, you take a look at that, see what's going on. We all go through those stages. So I did. I did want to mention that.
Speaker 2:And then, yes, on my website, fostering your wellness, I have a journal on there for people who are sober, have been sober for a little while, and then they're like okay, what do I do with my life now? It's. It's called I'm sober, now what you know. It's like okay, now, what do I do? I don't know what do I do with my life. So it's a 30 day journal, journal, prompts and just to kind of ask yourself some questions and things like that. So it can be a nice little helpful tool. You can. It's actually available on Amazon. You can go to the link from on the website. And then the other thing is just a guide for people who are new in recovery sobriety. It can even be a great tool for clinicians to look at to say, ok, these are some things I can suggest to someone who's looking for ways to stay sober. It's just the five fundamental components, things that it need to be, that are important when you're getting sober. So that's also available on the website as well.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:As a download.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I'll make sure that I put it in the notes so that people can also find that. But I'm just so grateful for the work you're doing and that you've come to share this with listeners today, because I think, from both a clinician and sort of just a listener standpoint, I think we can all relate to this idea of either loving someone with substance use struggles Absolutely or having somebody where that might be us struggles Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Or having a moment where that might be us Definitely, absolutely. Yes, you either know someone or have heard of someone. It's out there.
Speaker 1:It's there.
Speaker 2:It's a family illness, so it impacts everyone.
Speaker 1:It really does. I mean, as I'm closing, I'm thinking of kind of all the things of how to love people well, and I'm like that just may need to be our next episode. You know, like how do we help people who love people with substance use?
Speaker 2:Yes, that is difficult. I work with a lot of people, to family members. It's so hard with the enabling component. And as a parent, as a loved one, absolutely no, I mean as a clinician, I can tell you all day long what to do. I don't know what I do if my kids were struggling now in that role, but yeah, yeah it's hard.
Speaker 1:Your parent, your loved one, I mean, I feel like that would be its own whole episode and oh, it is probably very yeah, definitely important.
Speaker 2:So absolutely okay.
Speaker 1:Well, until we record that next one. I appreciate you for being here, thank you um thank you. I appreciate you for being here also and until next time, stay safe and stay well Ciao.
