Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep118: Breaking Barriers: Empowering Conversations on Sexual Health with Kaya Spicer
Unlock the transformative power of open dialogues about sexual health with our special guest, Kaya Spicer, a licensed clinical social worker and board-certified sex therapist. Explore how normalizing conversations about sex in therapy can empower clients with self-awareness and knowledge, crucial for overall wellness. Kaya brings a unique perspective, not only as a therapist but also as a passionate dog sitter, illustrating the role of joy and play in leading a fulfilling life. Together, we break down the barriers that prevent honest discussions around sexual health, providing insights into how therapists can create a safe space for these conversations.
Journey with us into the realms of intimacy and self-communication, where we dissect the impact of miscommunication and reliance on inaccurate sources like pornography on relationships. Kaya illuminates the path to understanding one's sexual identity throughout life's stages, stressing the significance of distinguishing sex from various forms of intimacy, such as financial and social. We discuss the challenges faced by those with a history of trauma in expressing their needs and recognizing their self-worth, and the importance of building intimate relationships grounded in communication and consent. Prepare to expand your understanding of intimacy beyond material gestures, and embrace a more holistic view of personal connections.
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Trammell, and I am a licensed psychologist and a professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I also direct the Master's in Mental Health Counseling program. And this is Things you Learn in Therapy. And today we're going to talk about a subject that might make you happy if you're listening to this with your earbuds in.
Speaker 1:But I'm so happy that Kaya Spicer is back to talk about all things related to kind of having conversations about sex in therapy, all things related to kind of having conversations about sex and therapy, maybe a little bit about certification as a sex therapist. So I'm just excited about talking about this topic because I don't think we talk about this maybe enough, and I think there's some folks who maybe, as clients, don't know if they're allowed to talk about it or they should, or is their therapist going to think they're weird? And on the other side of the couch, I think maybe new or even veteran therapists are like is it weird for me to bring up sex as a topic? And so I'm just excited to kind of clarify some of those things. So I'm glad you're here today, so introduce yourself to listeners and tell us something fun about you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me back, beth. It's good to be here. My name is Kai Spicer. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and a board certified sex therapist. I'm also a clinical anxiety treatment specialist, and that's all really important when it comes to talking about sex and sexology and sexuality with our clients. I am the owner of Infinite Zen Holistic Therapy and so I'm duly licensed in Texas and in DC, but I live in Texas. Right, tell you a new fun thing okay, I've, I've been told I speak dog and I I feel like I am a dog whisperer. I love, love, love dogs. Um, you know they're, they're just amazing, we don't deserve them. But, um, I'm also have a side gig as a dog sitter, so I've been dog sitting for about oh gosh, maybe, maybe, 21 years now. Absolutely love it, and I have like a little, a little dog pack that I dog sit. They're my extended family.
Speaker 1:I love that. So you have like this kind of regular group of dogs that you dog sit for. That's your dog pack.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I will brag that I have a five-star rating, for that's your dog pack. Yes, and I will brag that I have a five-star rating. You're really good at it. I'm really good at it, yeah, and I, and I love that I'm really good at it.
Speaker 1:It's something that's really fun and I totally enjoy. Okay, so when you're a dog sitter, do you have the dogs come to your house? Do you go to their house? What is the like protocol?
Speaker 2:So I have the dogs come to my house. I have a meet and greet. At first we talk virtually, I like to meet them in person and then the dogs come to my house. And then of course, I have the dogs that I already know what their temperament is. So it can be really tricky because I don't like to mix dogs. That you know I don't think would be a great fit. So sometimes I have to turn folks down, but for the most part it's the owners that are really anxious and really like sending all that energy down the leash, and so I'm like well, let me just take the dog.
Speaker 2:And they're like oh no, I don't know if it's going to work and then I'll send them videos and they're like I can't believe you got my dog to do that. So it is really exciting and fun.
Speaker 1:I love that, like dog parents are are like parents of children that they're anxious when they go somewhere else. They want to make sure they're okay, and so you're. You are so reassuring. I'm sure you send their videos to let them know and just like when you know I send my kids to somebody else's house and they eat something that they don't eat for me, you know, it's like they do other things with other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really fun. I enjoy it. I think one of the worst reviews I got is that you spoiled my dog. How dare you? I think they were serious. They were like my dog is so spoiled now and I'm like, oh sorry, my bad, Sorry.
Speaker 1:Not sorry, though, right, yeah, yeah. So I think that's fun, that is fun, I love that, and it you know what a great outlet. I think, as therapists, we all have to find something to sort of replace the heaviness of therapy, and so it sounds like this is a great. Yeah, it's a great niche for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the last time you were on we talked about kind of pleasure and play and how do we incorporate more of that and really fight more for that in our lives, and I love that conversation and so I am excited to kind of shift gears a little bit, although you know, pleasure and play and sex probably all go together too Absolutely. So let's just sort of start the conversation around how important is this topic of sex and therapy.
Speaker 2:It's really important. You know, sex and sexuality is a part of our existence, a part of our wellness as a human being. We often talk about physical health and mental health, and spiritual health and financial health and sexuality. Sexual health gets missed, even in the health community, right in the healthcare community. And so addressing sexual health issues isn't just about, like you know, resolving immediate concerns, but it's also about empowering clients to with knowledge and to understand themselves and to understand, kind of like that. This is a the broader picture around what it means, and that is where pleasure and play come in. For those of us who engage in, you know, physical sexual intimacy um, sex is play or it's it's adult play time. But when it turns into not so fun and you start to question like what's wrong with me, what's happening, that's where a sex therapist can come in and kind of help answer some of those questions and kind of guide the client to feeling more empowered.
Speaker 1:So, as a sex therapist, what are some common issues that people come in concerned about or curious about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. Things concerns of like desire, libido, energy, arousal. There are other concerns around sexual dysfunction, around sexual dysfunction, so erectile dysfunction, or things like vaginismus, pain if you have a vulva and you have pain with having sex. Issues around intimacy not really knowing you know who's initiating, why they are initiating, and there's also issues around who am I as a sexual person, right, especially if someone is transitioning, and so there may be some gender dysphoria, some dysphoria around their genitalia. So there's, it's a really broad, you know thing field, and so there are lots of different reasons that folks come in. But I think some of the main reasons would be like sexual esteem, like I said. But I think some of the main reasons would be like sexual esteem, like I said, common sexual dysfunctions, like erectile dysfunctions or issues with pain, pelvic pain, healing from sexual trauma or abuse, things like that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this question is so interesting and I wonder how many listeners have paused to ask themselves like who am I as a sexual person?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really a question that I like to start with. You know, I see individuals and couples and I see people that are in erotically diverse relationship formation so polyamorous, ethical, non-monogamous and one of the things that we don't talk about in healthcare is our sexuality and the way that it changes throughout our lifespan. So when we think about that sex, when we think about our own sexual self, who are you? So we start to create like an erotic blueprint or an erotic map, even going back to some of your earlier impressions or your earlier learning about sex, what did you learn from your parents about sex? How did that inform who you are Right? What does your community say? Because that's obviously a heavy influence.
Speaker 2:In what ways did your erotic mapping or your erotic kind of blueprint change over time? And so for me, for example, as a queer person, you know queerness wasn't really accepted, isn't really accepted in my home or my community. And so, as a queer person, it was really hard to understand who I was when I was being told that who I was was bad, sinful, wrong, right, and so, of course, over time, I had to incorporate and learn about who I am and then teach my lovers about who I am as well, and so that's a big part of it, starting with who am I, who am I as a sexual person, and then learning that and being able to teach others. And so I often think about sex as, like I said, adult play, right when it's consensual, when there's communication, is great when you know who you are and you have that sexual confidence.
Speaker 2:When it's not there, what is it? What does it become? Impulsive sexual behavior like watching pornography too much or engaging in something that doesn't feel comfortable and interferes with your life when you're doing it? You know that kind of leans towards this idea of sex addiction. But then there's a question mark around that, right, like how much sex is too much? And so if I'm telling you sex is too much and the amount of sex that you're having is too much, and I'm a board certified clinical professional how do you think that's going to translate into how you feel about yourself, right? So we don't really look at it like that. We try to look at the whole picture. How much is this interfering with your life, right? Where is this maladaptive or your person that enjoys having sex as frequently as you do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love this sort of connection to you know, think about it as too much or too little in comparison to either other people or what you think it's supposed to be. Or you know this idea of this erotic blueprint or an erotic map, of really understanding the messages and the messages you've kind of heard and received and have created this narrative and it's less about too much or too little in comparison to those things and more about the impact it has on sort of your functioning, your relationships, whatever that looks like, right? Is that what I'm hearing you kind of say?
Speaker 2:Right, and I was talking about over a lifetime right, so there was this message.
Speaker 2:I was out with friends and I just overheard this conversation around oh well, if you're over 50, you should never wear anything above the knee, and that was so interesting to me. It's like interesting to me. I'm like where did you learn that? Yeah, right, and we do have all of these messages about what it means to be sexual, and so I asked well, what, what does it mean if you were something over their knee, where you know you're not sexy if you're a woman over 50? So what do you do? And I thought that's, that's so not true, right?
Speaker 2:but, it's also really sad that those are the messages that we get, okay.
Speaker 1:So I want to come back to two things. I want to talk about this sort of concept of intimacy, but first I want you to come back to this issue of learning for you first and then teaching other people. Right, I want to kind of unpack that a little bit, because I think that is so hard. I can imagine the couples that you're seeing or the individuals that you're seeing that are reporting difficulty in their relationship because of a breakdown of one or the other of those things, and so it's so powerful to hear that it's an important two-step process. Right, you have to learn first before you can communicate with other people about your sexual health, your sexual desires, your sexual concerns, whatever that might be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because if well, yeah, let's take a little step back. So I think it's important to go at the pace of the client, right, that's one thing. So, even though I'm saying it's really important to learn who you are first, I'm taking that slow because even I don't want to be the person that's saying, well, you should be, I'm not going to start shitting on them. No, don't be shitting, don't be shitting. But at the same time, there's a really important question and a really important thought piece that people don't really think about. And so if I start to learn myself and I'll start with something like mirror work, you know where, you know someone gets a mirror and just starts to view their body, either starting closed or unclothed, starting with just the face or going all the way down the genitals, all the way down to the feet, because your whole body is a part of, is a sexual, you know, organ, your entire, all of your flesh, and so that's a part of it when I say getting to know you, but also it's getting to know the societal scripts that have been imprinted and put on you, that you didn't ask for and for people that are socialized as women and are people that with bubbles, it can be that your sexuality is outsourced to your partner, and if you're in a heterosexual relationship, it's your man, and giving that over to another person to be responsible for without you having any knowledge of it yourself can also. Yeah, you're nodding. So how can that cause an issue? Because now this person is supposed to know everything about your body, all your switches, all your turn, all your turn-ons and turn-offs, and be able to figure them out. You haven't communicated them. Couple that with the fact that he may not, you know, have it. No, right, because who's who's? How did he learn about what it means to be sexual? So now it's, it's like a puzzle piece and you're just trying to fit it and we haven't talked about anything.
Speaker 2:I don't really know myself. I'm getting my education from pornography. No shade, maybe some shade to certain types of pornography, but you know, no shade, right? It's like this isn't really the way that sex is going to be for everybody your body, right, your physical body. And so, yeah, I think it's starting with getting to know your skin, getting to know the skin you're in. What messages that? Did you learn about sex? What was your sex education? How have you? How has that changed over time. So I like to call like your sexual evolution. How have you sexually evolved over time? Right, so who are you in your teens, in your 20s, in your 30s, in your 40s? What questions have you asked yourself? What has changed, and does anything have to do with the messages that you told yourself, that you learned about you, with lovers, with friends, with books? Or was it just well, I'm 30, now I should do this? There's that should word. There's that should word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I love you keep coming back to this idea of over time, right, because it really does suggest that there are changes that may occur and likely will, and continuing to approach those changes with curiosity, based on sort of the experiences or messages that you have encountered over those periods of time.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. When we don't do that, when we don't start to question and we don't spend time with ourselves in any aspect of our wellness, right, like I said earlier, spend time with your money, spend time with your friends, get that social help, spend time with your spirituality, whatever that looks like. We don't spend time on our sexual health and we don't get to know ourselves. We're really just allowing people to masturbate with our bodies. We don't have any information to give them and so we just can figure it out and for some, that can work out right. It's kind of like rolling a dice, but what we know, especially about um sexual people with the vulvas, is that it takes a while right. Female sex sexuality is responsive. How do you know what, if? How do you know how responsive you are and what you're responsive to if you don't explore it and talk about it?
Speaker 1:It's so good. Okay, so can we talk about intimacy for a little bit? I know some people think that the sex and intimacy are the same. They think they're always together. Let's sort of dissect this intimacy word and what it kind of means in relation to sexual health intimacy, right, and that's another thing that we don't really talk about.
Speaker 2:So I mean, there's again. There is financial intimacy, recreational intimacy, social intimacy, and I even like to think about physical intimacy being broken down even further. Right, there's this proximity, there's being able to be in touch with someone where you can actually reach out and touch them. But Don't you think it's different if I'm sitting next to you and I'm touching your leg than if I'm giving you like a 90 second hug? Yeah, there's a different type of physical intimacy there. And if I give my friend a 90 second hug, that platonic energy that's shared in that intimacy is different from the erotic energy shared to somebody that I'm sexually interested in. Right and so.
Speaker 2:But I still think it goes back to communication. It goes back to consent. It goes back to what do I know about myself and how do I communicate that? Yes, communication is key, Just like in a good conversation with a friend. You know, I encourage listeners to have open dialogue about what it means to be intimate. But, at the same time, not everyone enjoys the same things, right, when it comes to intimacy, when it comes to closeness. So talk about it. What does it look like to you for us to be?
Speaker 1:intimate the roadblocks that people have around self-worth or shame or, you know, having a history of trauma, to say I'm worthy of sort of the outcome if I communicate this right or my needs. Yeah, I mean, do you encounter that with clients that you work with too?
Speaker 2:needs? Yeah, I mean, do you encounter that with clients that you work with too? Yeah, absolutely I don't. And that goes back to this kind of knowledge of self. But I can't talk about what I don't know, right? So if I don't know that I am deserving of love, then I'm going to start with this place of emptiness and just pour into you, or expect to be poured into, without being, without speaking up. Yeah, right, and so, yes, that's. That's a big part of it. A lot of it is with that particular issue is, I don't even know what to say. I didn't even know I could say this. I didn't know that I get to have this.
Speaker 2:I was always taught that you meet, you look in each other's eyes, you kiss, bam bam bam. Everything works out. But then, when life gets in the way and you're no longer having that immediate heat the honeymoon stage people start to panic, like, oh, no, it's over. And that's where, if intimacy wasn't really cultivated in the beginning, then we started to talk about well, what does intimacy look like for you? What is intimacy in your relationship? Where did you learn this intimacy? If I hear, oh, it's flowers and diamonds and trips, and I'm like, okay, okay, that's nice, right, that's nice. That's one kind yes, and you get the flowers, set them on the table and your partner walks away and it's the big day, yeah, right. So what is intimacy? What does it feel like in your body? What do you want to experience?
Speaker 1:That's good. Okay, if we take on the kind of clinician or therapy kind of role. If there are clinicians who are listening and they think, oh geez, like I'm not sure I could have this conversation or is my client going to think I'm a creeper if I bring this up. Or for folks who aren't, I think when you have the title board certified sex therapist, it's sort of like there's an open door to say you could talk about sex with me, but if you're quote regular therapist, I don't even know what a regular therapist means. You don't have that specialization therapist. I don't even know what a regular therapist means when you don't have that specialization. How do people find freedom in having this conversation? Or is it something that you really need to see a specialist if this is an issue for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that it's important to be able to slow things down and to check in with yourself, your own messages around sexuality and see, like, what is coming up for me when I do try to talk about it, because that is going to transfer into the space, right, yeah, yeah. The second thing is you know if you're feeling a little bit comfortable or you're feeling a little bit more than a little bit comfortable and you want to kind of talk about it, know that what you're doing is normalizing it. You're facilitating growth and healing, you're empowering your clients and you're breaking stigmas and taboos around sex by normalizing this conversation about sex and sexuality and how to enhance overall sexual health. And you know if it's not within your scope because you're not certified, you know. Then you can get that little bit or that kind of baseline of knowledge and say, hey, this might be an issue that you want to take to a sex therapist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, but building trust in the relationships, like we do, having a strong therapeutic relationship, is one Asking for permission and consent to talk about these things and sometimes it's going to be an outright no because they're uncomfortable. Yeah, you said you know you have to sex therapy behind your name, but I get the nose right. Nope, not to talk about it. Nope, don't want to hear that word, I want to use that word and so I like to say take your time and allow them to that person or the client that you're talking about, to be the lead in that. Yeah, you don't want to kind of jump in with both feet if they're not comfortable.
Speaker 1:I love this sort of continued message from you of taking your time, not feeling like you need to rush anything and just recognizing that, yeah, this word empowered that you used before right, that your goal is to empower people always to know themselves and be able to communicate that with other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's an energetic exchange between us and our clients, right, so they're empowering us too. You know, in some ways, you know we're in this position of power, yeah, but we learn, we're learners too, we're lifetime learners and we, we don't know it all, and so I think slowing down and allowing the client to, to, to take the lead on that, you can introduce it. Let them know that you're, it's an open space if and you're willing to talk about it, if you are, um, but if not, I I'd talk to a sex therapist. As a clinician, I'd meet with a sex therapist and talk to a sex therapist and consult around how you can open this conversation up with the client.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there are so many more things I want to say, but, as we wrap up, can you tell folks how they find you in any of the work that you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am on Instagram. You do. Yeah, I am on Instagram. Infinite Zen Holistic Therapy, instagram and Facebook. Or you can find me as Duewa Kaya Spicer. That's D-U-E-W-A-K-A-Y-A Spicer. What are my letters? L-c-s-w. There's a lot of letters behind the name. On Facebook, you can find my website, infinitezentherapycom. I'm happy to speak with you.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I love it. I have kind of the same issue. You know where you're like. What is the thing that I said I'm supposed to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I blame my device. I don't know my phone number. I don't know who I am Like. Who am I Wait? How do you sign in?
Speaker 1:I just rely on that so much. But you know what I have like released that from my brain so that I don't have to worry about it. But then sometimes when I have to state it for people, then I'm like I don't know Can check real fast before I let me check it myself. Hey look, that's been a common theme for today. Anyway, all right, kaya, I always enjoy our time together. I love your wealth of knowledge. I hope that folks really feel empowered to start to have these conversations, both with themselves and with the people that they are around and impacted by their sexual health and sexual behavior. So thank you for saying yes to being here today.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's always a pleasure, beth, that's great.
Speaker 1:All right, listener, thanks for being here and until next time. Stay safe and stay well, Bye.
