Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 120: Strengthening Partnerships in the Early Days of Parenting with Tatiana Rojas
Every expecting parent should hear what Tatiana Rojas, a dedicated marriage and family therapist, has to say about navigating the emotions and challenges of entering parenthood. Gain crucial insights into the often-overlooked aspect of perinatal mental health, as Tatiana sheds light on the significant disparities in healthcare attention before and after childbirth. With her passion for supporting new parents, she passionately discusses the need for more robust postpartum support that focuses on the well-being of both the birthing individual and their partners.
Uncover the secrets to establishing a strong postpartum support network that can be a lifeline for new mothers. We explore the role of postpartum doulas, healthcare providers, and mental health services in easing the overwhelming feelings that accompany this life transition. Tatiana emphasizes the importance of having a prepared network at your fingertips, offering a comforting safety net through a challenging time. As postpartum care continues to evolve, the availability of resources and ongoing conversations around mental health provide hope and vital support for mothers and families.
Our conversation doesn't shy away from the unique challenges couples face during this transformative period. From open communication to understanding the role of upbringing in parenting styles, Tatiana shares her expertise on maintaining strong partnerships amidst the chaos of newborn care. Prepare to be inspired by her practical advice, such as creating a structured chores list to facilitate support from friends and family, and explore the resources available, including a postpartum planner and access to Tatiana's specialized therapy services. This episode is a heartfelt guide for anyone embarking on the profound journey of parenthood.
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. This is Things you Learn in Therapy, and I'm your host, dr Beth Trammell. I'm a psychologist and professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm also the director of the Master Masters of Mental Health Counseling Program, and I focus on making words matter for good, and part of this podcast is aimed at using our words to do that very thing, and so I love that. I get to interview therapists and psychologists from all over the world. I get to talk to such smart, deep, meaningful people in the world, and my guest today is one of those very people, and we're going to be talking about, yeah, things related to becoming a parent, issues that happen around those early days and weeks, maybe even leading up to parenthood, and so I'm really excited about this, and I'm going to try not to just glean all of this for my own personal benefit, all the things that I messed up in those first couple of weeks. But anyway, tatiana, can you introduce yourself to folks and tell people one fun thing about you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my name is Tatiana Rojas.
Speaker 2:I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
Speaker 2:I'm licensed in California and in the state of Texas, and so I do actively see clients in both of those states, and I'm trained in perinatal mental health and working on my certification. So this is definitely one of those very close to my heart kind of topics and time timeframes in life. Yeah, I love anything surrounding the perinatal mental health field and timeframe, and so one fun thing about me though, um and I've realized this more especially within the last probably year or so is how much I love, I love Lucy and how much she brings me so much joy and watching that and anytime I get some downtime out of the therapy seat and out of my office and just to kind of chill and relax, that is definitely the thing that's on in the background and no matter how many times I've seen the episodes, I will always laugh and it always brings me so much joy and I think it's so nice to know that I have that thing that also brings me that much joy that I can tap into, because this work is also hard.
Speaker 1:This work is really hard and I love that you found something on a screen that brings joy, right, Because I, you know, when I do workshops on self-care or you know rest, most of the things we watch don't bring us joy, they mostly just numb us out. You know, I'm just like I just need some like brain mushing, something that I can stream, but I love that you have a show that brings you so much joy.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the more that I watch it, the more I relate to Fred Mertz. So anyway, we will.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, okay, well, that could be its own episode. I think that sounds. That sounds great, okay, so you specialize in perinatal mental health, and so perinatal just means like around the time of birth, and so that includes prenatal and postnatal, so before the baby's born and after the baby is born, and so you know, when you and I were emailing about what we might chat about today, you know, one of the things that that obviously you're really passionate about and have a lot of expertise in is is this period of time and like common issues that come up, and so can you start by just sharing what are some of the issues, or maybe just we'll start with one issue that may come up for folks during this time that maybe they, maybe you don't always think about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think the first one that stands out is just the health care system. You know how navigating that, whether it is, and also whether it's your first child that you're welcoming into the world, or whether you've experienced loss or whether you've. You know, this is the third or fourth, like all of those are still very different experiences and also come up with their own challenges. Not every pregnancy is the same. Yeah, um, also not every provider is as open and, you know, wants to make sure that you understand the processes, or understand, you know, what questions to ask and what they need to answer. It's you know. So it's difficult to navigate at times, and so I think there's also a really big piece of not only what leads up to giving birth, but then also right after and how the system unfortunately doesn't support women as much, perhaps, or birthing individuals, as they should.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean you, you go all along having all of these appointments, getting all the checkups, making sure everything's good, and then you might have a checkup in the hospital a couple days after, depending on what's happened, and then you get maybe a six to eight week checkup and then off you go, off, you go, go, go ahead and continue to live your life, and so any physical things that come up after the fact are not.
Speaker 2:You have to find your primary care doctor, you have to find someone that's going to listen, you have to figure out how to get in, and so there's just so many challenges, I think, surrounding that, and I think it's also a helpful you know piece to just know that that is not as easy to navigate as you'd like it for it to be, and I don't think that's talked about a whole lot, but I know that when I talk with my clients like this is one of the things like after having birth, no matter if it went really well or not, it's where's the continued care and support for me, because I also had a lot of it coming up to this point, and now everything is about baby.
Speaker 1:I love that we're, you know, when you said, well, I think the one thing is healthcare, and I thought, wow, we're just going to come right out the gate with you know, it is so true. You know, I think we spend all this time. You know, we have all this nostalgia around how great it's going to be to be a parent, or maybe I'm I'm nervous about what it's going to be to be a parent, or maybe I'm nervous about what it's going to be like to be a parent, or I have some insecurities around it. But then there's the real practicalities of the healthcare system that, yeah, I don't think people talk to you about. How much is your deductible? And now that you have had all these visits, you know, until the end of the year, and now your visits starting in January are, you know, even just the financial stuff around healthcare.
Speaker 2:No, definitely 100%, Even as those things kind of pop into play and oftentimes you don't really get like those bills or that information until it's been months, yeah, after.
Speaker 2:So then it kind of catches you by surprise or you know you could anticipate it, but then when you actually still really see the numbers surrounding it, it's it's quite overwhelming and it's so unfortunate that that is the way it works. But I think let's just, yeah, be honest that that is a factor that works. But I think let's just, yeah, be honest that that is a factor that is another thing that pops into play, for sure, and comes up for a lot of individuals. And, yeah, especially depending on the time of year you have your kiddo or other, you know, medical things that have come up throughout the year in that timeframe can definitely impact and that also creates some stressors as well. Right, because then we're talking about people being on leave on disability, not getting their full amount, like just now. We're adding another stressor into everything else in terms of adjusting to a huge life transition with bringing someone into the world and into your home, a new person.
Speaker 1:So you know something you said earlier. You know that the providers maybe don't, they don't prepare as well as they could, and you know if this is your first kid or if it's your second or third kid and you know things are going the same or they're going different. You might not realize what you should or shouldn't ask and you know, when I was thinking about that, it was like yeah, you know, most providers are sort of like yeah, you know, this is what I do every day and every birth is a little bit different, depending on the person right, their birthing plan, maybe who they have in the room, what the situation around this birth is. Fill in the blank, I can imagine the conundrum that some providers are in because they're like you know, I certainly couldn't prepare, you know, this mother, this family for all the potential things that could happen. But then it leaves to what you said earlier.
Speaker 1:Right, that it's like not all parents or you know about to be parents know what they should even be asking or expecting, right? So like am I allowed to be in the room? I'm, you know, this person's partner, but am I allowed to be in the room or not? Can I be there for this part and not this part? What do we do about? You know, there's so many things around health care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so I think it's really important to know what resources are available to anyone. And so there's a great organization called Postpartum Support International that has a ton of information also specifically post post giving birth as well. But and then, you know, looking at postpartum planners, even if you were to do a quick like Google PDF search, you'll come up with a number of just ways to kind of coordinate, perhaps even like what questions to be asking, but also like what to expect after, because I think there are, there are a ton of available resources. I'm a part of a number of different groups. I mean there's doulas, there's midwives, there's, you know, there's lactation consultants. There's so many also people that I think we don't think to access even before we give birth, that have a lot of this information that can really kind of help lead to kind of what to expect Not not to say that they're taking the place of a doctor, but maybe can answer some of those questions perhaps.
Speaker 2:But I think there's also a piece for providers, you know, and for doctors and midwives that are talking with their patients.
Speaker 2:To be able to have some of this information accessible would be great, because I think they're in there, they've got a short window of time to kind of talk with you, have the exam check in on you, and then they've got to move on as well.
Speaker 2:They're also limited and totally understand that piece, but we still need to make sure we're giving the attention to asking some of these questions and some things that just stand out to me, that were never addressed, that never came up and that I had personally experienced was like even just thinking about, like hair loss or the hormone dumps you experience after, like stopping breastfeeding or the difficulties with breastfeeding, and that that you know being another component, or even just regulation of cycles after giving, and like the length, what are some of the risk things that I need to be looking for, not just two weeks after but, like you know, if something hasn't shifted or changed within six weeks, do I need to be really concerned about these things?
Speaker 2:Like just warning signs, you know, and those are just a couple of things that, like I said, kind of pop into play that it was like oh, I don't remember anyone saying anything about these things that then become like very overwhelming, right, and the differences between the baby blues and postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, that being another really big component of there's one screening that you normally get and then that's kind of it, and so when I'm working with my clients, I try and do a lot of free screening, so that way, when we get to the post part, I already know if something's kind of off, based off of how they're responding to four weeks to six weeks after giving birth.
Speaker 2:We can kind of define and kind of determine what that looks like, based off of previous screenings and how they were feeling and also, obviously, after having conversation. I find that to also be really valuable information, especially when clients are saying I need more time, I'm not ready to go back to work, I just can't, or I need some medication, support services. Give all of this, then, to your next provider, give this to your psychiatrist, give this to your primary, give this to your doctor, because it is such valuable information and I've seen that actually be really helpful for clients that need to adjust their leave times and kind of what they have available as well.
Speaker 1:So you know, what I love about what you're saying is like these resources exist and we're kind of advocating for providers to be maybe a little more forthcoming with these resources. Because I think what I hear you saying and I mean at least I know for me I think about those first few days and weeks after childbirth that it feels so overwhelming that I don't even know who I'm supposed to call with this issue. You know, do I call the doctor? You know, do I call my OB? Do I call my primary if they're two different people? You know, for me I had, I had C-section deliveries and so it was like, well, do I call the surgeon for this issue? That's not really related to the incision, but it's clearly in my body somewhere, you know. And then I have to call them and leave a message and then wait for them to call me back and I might as well just not call at all.
Speaker 1:I can think about all these resources and the things that like, hey, this might come up for you and here's a resource for what this might be. Here's what, here's another thing that might come up for you and here's what this might be. You know, I think back to those first few days and weeks and there's part of me that wouldn't want to have one more appointment. But I also think there'd be part of me that would. Even if I had an appointment with a doula, or if I had an appointment with my primary already on the schedule, I'd be like, wow, I'll just wait and I'll talk to my doctor about that when I go on Friday. You know what I mean Versus. Well, I got to wait until my six week appointment, or I got to call and leave a message.
Speaker 2:Or send an email and then likely have a nurse kind of respond in those cases. Yeah, I think one of the nice things with being developed, and that I'm seeing more and more, at least with the postpartum planners, is having also some of this information that you write down, you jot down beforehand so you know where you can go if certain things you know come up, or if you need resources or referrals, you can ask for those, maybe like ahead of time. So, yeah, like because also sometimes it is helpful when other people can make contact to schedule an appointment or things of that nature. So I mean just simply writing down your OBGYN, letting other people know, like where they can find this information. They can get it to you what's the name of your hospital, what's the name of like a lactation consultant that maybe you've already reached out to or can reach out to for support? Or postpartum doula? Oh, my goodness, With my second pregnancy I had a postpartum doula, a nighttime doula, that came in and it was a lifesaver, not only because it was another resource, but so helpful to have another set of hands to help in the recovery and care of baby process, because unfortunately I didn't have family that was readily accessible and available to just come and hang out for a couple of weeks or a month.
Speaker 2:So I had to rely on someone else but a lot of these individuals to also have access to referral sources for information that you may not even think that you you would need.
Speaker 2:But I think it's also really important, anything that you know ahead of time, write it down, because when you're in the throes of like just being overwhelmed and so tired and exhausted and your body hurts and you're recovering and you know, if you write it down and have it accessible, you can also ask someone to go grab you that piece of paper, share that document with you, whether it's your partner or whether it's someone you know, another family member that you've had conversations with.
Speaker 2:Really, actually, what I'm talking about is setting up your support system. Yeah, after you know, after the fact and as best as you possibly can, know where you can reach out to if you need some mental health services. Know where you can reach out to. You know in those cases and there are a ton, there's a ton available out there and we're seeing there being more support on especially the mental health front than I think we have in a very, very long time and having some really good conversations about the need, and so if you seek that out specifically, you'll find somebody for sure at this point, which I think was not the case several years ago.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know, my doula was incredible. I had a doula the first time and then obviously, I had C-sections after that, and so it didn't make a whole lot of sense to use the resources of a doula prior to birth at that point. But one of the powerful things that I remember about my doula was not just her level of support, but it was like her experience. She was able to speak into things that were like oh, it's very normal for this to happen, or you know, hey, this is what we can expect. Or there was some real comfort in just that presence, especially as a first-time mom. And so I think about what you described like the postpartum doula where they came in, and I just think, what a gift to be like okay, am I doing this right? I don't know, like, is this how it's supposed to go? I don't know I got things happening on my body that are doing this and that and I don't know. Can I ask you this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if they didn't know the answer, they're normally more than willing to help connect you to finding that.
Speaker 2:You know for sure.
Speaker 2:But it's nice to also have that assurance and that care and support for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, once again, I think, like I said earlier, most of it becomes after birth about baby, and it's so hard to kind of find how to get your needs met, uh, based off of you know what's going on, and so super, super helpful to have some of those, those, those resources and those people to reach out to.
Speaker 2:And there are also several, even like postpartum, like support groups that meet virtually and online so you can also connect and maybe something that you thought wasn't an issue might actually be an issue and might, you know, definitely have some acknowledgement. You know there, if you're also talking with others, other individuals that have just birthed and are kind of going through the same thing, it also normalizes that that you're also not alone in this process and it can feel so extremely lonely in those at least first six to eight weeks, because you are just kind of hunkered down generally at home, trying to make sure that you're okay, baby's okay and everyone else in the family perhaps is okay as well, protecting and caring and just trying to get sleep, you know, in those ways.
Speaker 1:So All right. So I know that probably much of the work around perinatal mental health. Obviously we involve a lot of mothers in that and there are a lot of issues that the birthing individual has to kind of deal with in their own body. But I'm curious about maybe some common issues for the partner and what are some things that maybe even the birthing individual doesn't necessarily realize or think about for the partner, any common issues that you've heard of from clients or just kind of know about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of the things that comes up or that I've kind of realized too, is how helpless and powerless a partner can feel during the birthing process. Yeah, whether it's seeing your partner in pain as they go through the birthing process and that being very like traumatic for some, or just very like shocking and jarring, because you generally see perhaps your partner I wouldn't say maybe like fully calm, but you see them in their natural kind of state of being. Maybe, yeah, they have anxiety, but nothing to the level of what kind of pops up, with pain during that whole process and then just all of the complexities that come up with just labor and delivery and the doctors and the checkups and the check-ins and the vital checking and medication, and I mean that's also just overwhelming in and of itself and if you're not really exposed to it, then you don't really know that that's going to be the thing that's going to happen or come up, and so I know that that's been one of those kind of pieces of just things that stand out in a birth partner's kind of experience and and or even a family member's experience. If you're, you know you have a sibling in the room because you trust your sibling your sister to be in the room or something like that. That's also maybe very different.
Speaker 2:And then just kind of the other thing that comes to mind is just expectations that shift and change, that kind of go unnoticed or untalked about. So this might be expectations around who does different chores in the house, or how we're actually going to do sleep training, and we thought we talked about it and we thought we kind of had a good understanding, and then we get to it and we're like, oh shoot, that's not gonna, that's not the way we had originally planned it. Or we're just so really exhausted that we don't even know what to do or even like feeding options. You know breastfeeding versus bottle feeding and how that plays out, and I mean generally birthing partners can only do so much if they're not the one that's actively, you know, feeding. If your, your partner, is in fact breastfeeding, it's harder to be an active participant in that, and so that's another one that kind of seems to come up.
Speaker 1:I am so grateful that you talked about this, that like expectations discussion around how are we going to do this parenting thing together?
Speaker 1:Because I think it's hard to prepare for every tiny moment. You know, it's even like, well, are we going to pick them up when they're crying right now, or do we let them? You know, encountered parents that are like, oh well, he or she will never let them cry, like they will just go and pick them up and they'll hold them the whole time, and then the other parent is like and then when they leave or when they're gone, then I have to manage all this. So it's like even these like tiny moments, not like I think it is also, you know, are you going to breastfeed or bottle feed? Are you? What kind of diapers are you buying? What kind of clothes are you wearing? Like kind of those you know, maybe bigger decisions, but even like the tiny parenting decisions, it does just sort of become this opportunity for open communication. And if you haven't had practice at that or you haven't prepared for that, when you're all sleep deprived and at least one of you is hormonal, you know, all over the place sort of scenario I imagine that brings challenges.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely, and I think along with that as well, and oftentimes I don't think what's expected or anticipated is how much your own upbringing or your own family culture that plays into yeah, how you parent or what you do, and you have two different people coming in with their own family cultures or their expectations of nurturing and attachment. I mean, we could spend a whole nother episode talking about about those things. But those things really do, you know, come into play, you know, in a lot of different, different ways. And I think you know, for birthing partners, you know, if they've grown up around kind of an environment where it's not okay to cry, we don't deal with tears or those kind of emotions that make us feel dysregulated, those babies cries at three in the morning or four in the morning when there's nothing else.
Speaker 2:You've done everything that you possibly can to figure this out, work this out, get some peace and quiet in the house and it's not working. You're talking about then someone's likely who's dysregulated themselves and having to manage that, and that is kind of another piece that, until you experience it, I don't think you know that it's really there at times and so that, being another one that really kind of pops up, is a lot of birthing partners will then see their partner so their husband, spouse, significant other, boyfriend or, or you know, girlfriend, whatever that may be and like how they respond and they're like, oh my gosh, this is a problem and that's what kind of creates some of the discord and discomfort in the relationship of. You should be responding this way and you're not. Yeah, what's that?
Speaker 1:about yeah Well, and again, like if you're not accustomed to having these kind of hard conversations, you know you probably need to just buckle up. I guess you know it's like cause they're coming.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think kind of going into it. I think more than ever and maybe this is my own learned experience as being a parent is I just have to be open to learning and shifting as much as we can, because even what I thought was going to go a certain direction didn't go that way, and so I've got to learn to shift or figure out how I can best help myself and help my family out so that we're still keeping some peace. But also you have to kind of face some not so great things perhaps about your emotions, your thoughts and how you respond. You know, in those ways, and it can be really uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:I am trained in Gottman's bringing home baby and so if anyone ever gets a chance to run through a workshop, I think this also helps kind of prepare in some ways some of these conversations and some of the openness to have some of these conversations. So that's definitely a helpful potential resource. And also knowing there are also definitely dad support groups, birthing partner support groups as well that are available out there, some of them through Postpartum Support International. Normally those are free support groups as well that are available out there, some of them through Postpartum Support International. Normally those are free, and then there's probably generally likely something in your local estate that you can probably find as well, and once again, some of those are virtual, so you don't actually have to go anywhere.
Speaker 2:You could just simply log in and also be open to hearing about other people's stories too. It might be helpful, right? It's still just all of that unexpected. I didn't think this was going to be the thing that we were going to have to figure. I thought we were just going to figure out what we were going to eat. You know for that day.
Speaker 2:And that sounds like that was difficult enough to figure out at times.
Speaker 1:So you know, this is maybe a little bit too much for somebody who's listening, and so if you're not ready for this, just skip to the next episode or turn it off at this point. But you know so my birthing experience was slightly different for at least the second, third, fourth kids. But you know, I think about what you had talked about in terms of the birthing partner, like just feeling helpless and powerless. And I think some of what I think about during the birthing process in particular is that I don't think anyone prepares you for all that kind of logistically happens to the body.
Speaker 1:And I think about a conversation I had with a birthing partner once and they were I don't know, they just weren't really aware of kind of everything that actually happened during the birthing process. I mean, I think they knew like the logistics of a baby comes out of vagina sort of thing, but they were not aware of like all of the other logistics of what happens during pushing. And I remember them sort of saying, like you know, beth, I just can't unsee it. I think they thought, well, I'm going to watch the birth happen. And it was something that in their mind they thought they were supposed to enjoy was like watching the birth of their baby. But actually watching the literal birth of their baby was then really traumatic for them and they were like I just can't unsee what literally happens during a birth. Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1:It's a lot to be tells you like, hey, if you, you know, have you know? If you think you're going to have a hard time, like thinking about things a certain way or seeing things a certain thing, you might just keep your head on the other side over there.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, yeah, for sure, and and I you know my personal experience is I had an emergency C-section with my first and then I had, and I elected to have a C-section with my second, just for the logistical, other reasons of support and things in that nature and just kind of some other things that were going on. But, yeah, definitely, even with that process kind of happening and even with my partner being able to watch and kind of take into account what was going on, that was still a lot and unexpected in that way. So I think, even just having continued to have honest conversation, ask questions and even after continue to check in about kind of what you saw and what you experienced.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so much to the level of let's have an in-depth, hour-long conversation about your experience. But like, oh man, that was a lot, that was hard. Learning just how to express your feelings can be really helpful, um, you know, to your partner and even just kind of understand it, because this is also a very connecting experience for the family and so let's not kind of negate that piece too of like this is a shared experience and it may be likely traumatic for both parties, you know in that, but it's nice to know, like you can connect on some level, that this was not maybe how we thought this was going to go. Let's just be honest about that. Yeah, I think that's really helpful and important.
Speaker 2:I don't think enough is stated a lot of times about shared experiences or the experiences in general in relationships. I work also on that and just being open to communicating and sharing your experience, whether or not someone gets it or understands it or can sympathize with it. But just vocalizing and verbalizing oh my gosh, that was a lot. Yeah, right, so helpful because it's not just sitting in your head and it's not just sitting in your heart.
Speaker 1:So well, and I think what you said earlier, like being open to learning, a good sort of reminder even in that process that you know, hey, this happened to both of us. Even though it was happening to my body, it like the whole thing really happened to both of us, and so being open to learning what that other person's experience was like, I think obviously is good advice.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well and I'm sure I would guess you've probably heard this too and I and I share this kind of statement a lot is just be curious and during the situation and during the situation, just be curious about someone else's experience, and a lot of times you'll get a softer kind of approach or response back. You know, in those ways as well. But I think, especially during this particular period of time in a couple's life, be curious about each other's experience. Yeah, what's going on? Um, you'll likely found there's, there's a lot of stuff going on underneath the surface for both, for both of us.
Speaker 1:Yes for both, yeah, yeah, that Okay. Well, as we wrap up here, anything that you like still want to get out today that you're like. Oh man, I really wish I would have said this.
Speaker 2:I think one of just the other thing that really comes to mind I know we talked about like the postpartum planner you can kind of find and I can share some resources if that would be helpful. But I think one of the biggest things is right, if you get a chance, write down all of the chores, all of the things, all the to do's around the house, and if anyone says can I help with something, what do you need help with? Back to the chores list. Yeah, or have it as an available thing that you can give out, post it on the fridge if somebody comes over, and it could be anything from doing the dishes, doing the laundry, taking the dog out for a walk, bringing a meal over or just kind of sitting and talking. Like those are the things that could be helpful. But I think having a list of all those things that could be helpful really kind of also takes out.
Speaker 2:I don't know how many times we people will ask let me just let me know how I can help. Yeah, I want to take that away, rather than just say these are the options. If you can help, these are the things that you can do. So it's not even a question of it's. Can you just do one of these things?
Speaker 1:I love that, because people are always asking like what can I do to help, or when can I come and visit? Or you know, I think, as many times as you can prepare ahead of time. That's what you're, that's been your whole message this whole time is prepare in advance as much as you can.
Speaker 2:And I think that can be just. It's just so helpful when you already know what you can give to someone to let them know how they can be of support, rather than having to come up with when you're exhausted, tired. And you can always add to that, if you need to, to that list in any way, shape or form. But people are willing to help and they will do different things to support you, but it's gotta be readily available. So it kind of makes a little bit, takes a little less stress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. Okay. Well, how can people find you your website social? Any of those?
Speaker 2:things, yeah. So my website is wwwgetherapyservicescom and I am on Instagram G underscore E, underscore T services. You can find me there and those are probably the best ways to get in touch with me if you have any questions or are looking for some resources.
Speaker 1:That's great, and we'll definitely link to Postpartum Support International and that postpartum planner that you're talking about, because I think those are great resources and really probably walk people through a lot of the things we're talking about here. Definitely. Yeah, that's great. Well, thank you for saying yes to being here. It has been so good talking through these issues and even, I think, for both of us thinking about our own experiences, like, wow, this would have been really helpful if you know, we would have had these things. So, thanks for coming to share those things today and, listener, thank you for being here. Also, forward to continuing to share more episodes with great folks, just like Tatiana. So until next time, stay safe, stay well, Ciao.
