Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 121: Therapists in Therapy: Navigating Vulnerability, Self-Care, and Creative Exploration with Marie Sloane
What happens when therapists seek therapy themselves? That's the pressing question we tackled with Dr. Beth Trammell and our special guest, Marie Sloane, a licensed professional counselor. Despite being equipped with theoretical knowledge, therapists like Marie often face the stigma and imposter syndrome when they turn the lens inward. We delved into this fascinating topic, underscoring the importance of vulnerability and normalizing mental health support for those who provide it to others.
Creating a sanctuary of comfort in therapy sessions is a cornerstone of effective practice. We share insights on how adopting a non-judgmental attitude and establishing clear boundaries fosters an environment where clients feel safe and open. From telehealth to embracing casual language, our conversation reveals how these elements contribute to an authentic therapeutic relationship. By being transparent about our habits and accommodating our clients' needs, as Marie shared, therapists can reinforce a trusting and supportive atmosphere.
Balancing personal well-being with the demands of therapy work is a tightrope walk many therapists know well. Our discussion ventures into the complexities of setting boundaries and finding self-care routines that genuinely work, recognizing that rest is deeply personal. Whether you're a parent navigating postpartum challenges or simply trying to recharge, understanding what truly rejuvenates you is crucial. We conclude with a celebration of the creative process, expressing gratitude for our engaging discussion and the anticipations of future explorations. Join us on this journey, and let's continue to stay safe and well together.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
To learn more about Marie or contact her, visit: http://mariesloanecounseling.com/
If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel. I am a professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I also direct the Master's in Mental Health Counseling Program, and I love to do my best to make words matter for good. That's kind of my focus. I have worked in a lot of different ways and right now I do a lot of consultation and training in the schools, kind of for my clinical work. And I am here with my guest, marie Sloan. I'm so glad that you're here Taking a break from vacation to be here on the podcastan. I'm so glad that you're here taking a break from vacation to be here on the podcast. So I'm so grateful that you thought well, I have a lot of free time and on vacation, I'll just pop in for an hour, and I'm glad you're here and thankful to your family to let us borrow you for a minute. But could you introduce yourself and tell us one fun thing about you? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me and also for giving me a break from my family for an hour. So my name is Marie Sloan. I am a licensed professional counselor in the state of Arizona and now Texas. I did add Texas last year, so I'm duly licensed. Hoping that they can get a compact figured out soon so that that'll make things a lot easier, but in the meantime I've been trying to expand into other states. A fun thing about me is that I am currently halfway through writing. A novel has nothing to do with therapy, it's about serial killers and it's a thriller and I'm hoping to be done with that by the end of the year.
Speaker 1:That amazing.
Speaker 2:I want to read it because I love thriller and murder mystery kind of books it is definitely one of those, and that's what I love, so that's what I am writing that really is a fun thing.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. So, as we were kind of chatting before we started recording, we were like, well, you know, what should we talk about today? And we had all these ideas. And then it started. We started talking about all the things that are happening in both of our lives, and one of the things that you brought up is kind of some work that you've been doing with therapists in therapy as a therapist, seeing therapists, and kind of some of the uniqueness of that work. But I want to start with maybe some of the things that you share with therapists. Or maybe you hear from therapists who are starting counseling around that whole idea of stigma for therapists who seek therapy. Right it's. I think there's this myth that some of us feel this pressure to be like, well, how can I help other people if I need therapy myself? Right, like certainly I should have it all together because I'm telling all these people in my therapy office how to kind of keep their lives together. Why would a person need therapy if they're a therapist?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think that is one of the biggest things that I hear from therapists that causes their imposter syndrome that I have to have it all together. I have to have it all together if I'm going to have any sort of credibility, which I always challenge because I'm like there is no, no one, I don't care how together you have it, that doesn't have this human messiness. Like that's just not a thing. Yep, and so I think for and I am a therapist who's also in therapy I have had a therapist pretty much since grad school, school and before, and so this is something that I've talked about, not only when I'm in therapy as a client, but now as these therapists are coming to me and being my client, I often share with them like it is okay, like we are not supposed to be the perfect human, like robot you know therapy robots.
Speaker 2:There's nothing relatable about that, and one of the things I tell my clients about this is like just because you're struggling too, doesn't mean that you don't know what you're doing. It doesn't mean that you're not a good therapist. It doesn't mean that. And again, like it doesn't mean you don't know the answers and you can't be very good at your job, while also having a bit of separation and having your own life and your own things and like your own fire to put out and things to work on. Like that's just the reality of the matter.
Speaker 2:But I think for us, because we've had all of this training and I always say, like, just because we know some of the quote unquote answers, you know like, oh, I can do this, or I know that this is good for me, or I know that, like, if this happens, I should do this. That doesn't mean that we're always going to be great at that or want to do that. Like sometimes I just I know the answers, I know what's good for me in this moment and I just don't want to do it. It's hard, you know, and I think that, honestly, is a good thing to talk about with people and allow them the space to admit that same thing.
Speaker 1:I certainly have read the books on how to do certain things in my life, but there's a real difference between reading about it and, you know, encouraging others to do it and then doing it myself Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Rubber meets the road and it's. It is, it's hard and it's. There's a a and I always talk about it. I'm an emdr therapist, so I do a lot of talking about the difference between knowing something up here in my, my cognitive front brain, like knowing something and feeling it, or like there's a little bit of that distance sometimes that we have to bridge, so like I could know what is good for me, and at the same time, there's probably another part of me that's like, yeah, you know, I don't want to do that. Or like maybe have some doubts, like this is what I do with my therapy clients, or my clients who are therapists themselves is like what is that doubt? What is that? Well, I shouldn't be allowed to do that, because this or whatever you know and I do a lot of exploration about the difference between that, that cognitive knowing, and then the other, whatever it is that's in the background, that's doubting it or cringing or whatever, and those are usually the things that kind of hold us back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think about therapists as therapy clients. I think about therapists as therapy clients and I think it does take a different level of trust for therapists to be in therapy for sort of a number of reasons. Right, that you're like I really do have to trust that this therapist I'm seeing is going to maintain confidentiality, right? I mean, I just want to lay that out there. You know, I want to trust every clinician but to lay out some of the struggles with you know, a peer basically really does take that level of trust. And then I think the other thing I'm thinking about and I would love to hear your thoughts on this also is that the second kind of extra layer of trust is letting go of the like.
Speaker 1:I wonder why she's asking that question. I bet she's thinking this. I bet they're going to go to this level next. It's almost like knowing the behind the scenes and then trying to like control your own kind of therapeutic journey, when really the trust that we'd ask of most clients is to just allow us to also walk alongside you and guide you, not to control everything, but but to guide. So I don't know, what do you think about those things? I'm sure that that is probably a part of it.
Speaker 2:Yes, and even I would definitely tell you from my perspective, I've left sessions with my therapist and go. She probably thinks I'm the worst therapist ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, when in reality, when any of my therapist clients need a session, I never have that thought, of course. I'm always like, yes, you know, like I feel you, and so I think there is a little bit of that. We need to like figure out how to turn it off a little bit or not turn it off, but just allow ourselves to be like, oh, I'm not the clinician right now. I need to put my clinician brain or like my clinician hat over here and just be the client and just be and honestly, honestly, it takes me a minute, a little extra minute sometimes, to establish rapport and that trust with my therapist clients that like I'm not gonna judge you because I'm a human, also a therapist, and I disclose to them that I'm a therapist in therapy, so that they don't get this like, oh, I'm the therapist, therapist and I know all things, like I don't. And so it takes me a little bit of extra time, I think, to build that, that trust and rapport with my clients who are therapists. But I think once I have that they I'm really good at kind of being like I know, you know the things and like, but this is the space where you get to not have to analyze all the things and I'm not analyzing all the things all the time.
Speaker 2:I'm not a very good analytical therapist. I'm very much a like let's just be in the moment together. You want to talk about this? Okay, like we had emdr planned, I don't care, this seems more important. You know, I try to be very organic with that so that they're not constantly in their head either. And I think sometimes maybe that is my background and my ADHD from those like I came from industries prior to being a therapist that required a lot of like kind of thinking on your toes, yeah, and like I worked in finance and I worked in restaurants and stuff like that. So I think maybe that kind of helps me just challenge them a little bit. Like let's not get too far into the analytical weeds here, you know, like let's just be present with each other, and I think that helps them be a little bit more at ease and a little bit more open and willing to kind of just offer up with me.
Speaker 1:I often tell clients, whether they're a therapist themselves or they're kind of a client doing who does other things.
Speaker 1:You know, I usually tell them, like if there's something that you're curious about that I'm thinking, just ask me. I'm not over here like scheming up all these different thoughts or ideas about you, like, and one of the reasons I tell people that is similar to what you're saying is like I would be really distracted if I felt like my therapist was over there, like thinking of all the different ideas about me and then never telling me, you know, and so I. I love that you share that and you know, I think we're similar in that way that we we sort of try to be really open. And it's one of the things that I tell my trainees, right, that they're so focused. You know they take the techniques class and they're like I can't wait to do the empty chair technique. You know, and God love them. You know it's like those techniques are great and important, but really such a more important thing is that ability to just be present and listen and extend like this nonjudgmental space for people to explore what's really going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mental space for people to explore what's really going on. Yeah, I think one of the one of the ways I describe it is like providing a comfortable space. And for me, I'm very I kind of ride that line with a question myself, sometimes with like not my professionalism in terms of my ethics or like how I manage myself, like on that level. But I'm very casual, I'm a very casual person. Like I don't wear suit. Yeah, you know I don't, I'm not very stiff and I think that's what one of the things that I don't know if you can like teach that necessarily, but it's a little bit of that like find yourself as a professional where, like you know, and I know, those first few sessions or like first few years of being a clinician, it's kind of like that math going on in your head constantly Am I being appropriate? Am I, is this question appropriate? Am I doing the right thing? Am I? You know, like there's all those things that are going through your head from grad school and I feel like, as you get better and more comfortable with, okay, I know how to do all those things, just naturally, but now I just know, like you said, how to be present with this person and let them know this is a safe space and I can hold that and I'm I'm comfortable. And if I'm comfortable, they'll hopefully feel like, no matter what they bring up, it's gonna be fine, like, okay, let's talk about that, let's unpack that, let's go into that.
Speaker 2:I had a supervisor in one of the settings when I worked in substance use and one of the things he told me has always resonated with me and that and I've remembered it he said no matter what they bring up, just treat it like it's what was your favorite color. And they told you so. Like, like, even if it's some really weird embarrassing topic, like you know for them, like sexuality, or you know something that's odd, or like I don't like one of my clients or whatever it is, you know that somebody says just be like oh, okay, tell me more about that, let's unpack that. And as long as you don't freak out, they won't freak out, yeah, and that has always really stuck with me and that's kind of how I try to, no matter what it is.
Speaker 2:And I've definitely had clients, therapists or not, who have kind of I can tell they were kind of like testing me about, like what is this okay to talk about Is this, you know, and I'm like, if this is what's bothering you, then yes, you know, like, whatever it is, we'll talk about the feelings. Is we'll talk about the feelings, we'll talk about all the stuff, and I think that's kind of. A lot of people have, in therapy, not experienced that before. Um, that not judging. Yep, I'm struggling with this and if I bring it up, it's oh, you shouldn't be upset about that, or you shouldn't be feeling that way, or whatever. And I think when they don't get that from me, that makes me feel like okay, I'm doing something right.
Speaker 1:And I love that you talk about this space of like, comfort and safety. I think that that is obviously at the heart of everything we want to do in the therapy room. And one of the things that I did in the first session, I kind of realized early on I don't think it was like in my first couple. I kind of realized early on, you know, I don't think it was like in my first couple of years of being a therapist. I think it does take you a little bit of time to kind of find your own and recognize that who you are is probably the most therapeutic thing.
Speaker 1:And so in the first session, what I, what I used to tell people during, you know, I'd go through informed consent, I'd go through what obviously limits of confidentiality, and then I would do sort of what to expect, because I sort of realized that they should know in the first session, like what they're going to get from me.
Speaker 1:And so you know, I usually would say I'm going to have at least two drinks always.
Speaker 1:So if you want to bring in a drink or a snack, like, I'll have my cold coffee next to me and I'll have my water on the other side of that, and you know, I'll have at least two drinks and then I I used to say like I have my shoes on today because it's my first session with you and I feel like it's appropriate to wear shoes, but from here on out, I may not wear shoes when I see you next time, and feel free to be as comfortable, or you know. However you want to approach this space, I want you to approach it from a place of comfort and safety, and so you know, I used to just sort of like warn people ahead of time or just let them know ahead of time, but that was what I believed the therapy space was, and I think it is rooted in a lot of what I believe comfort is. Obviously, it's my bias towards comfort of. You know, just have a drink or a snack and just take your shoes off and just wear your comfy pants.
Speaker 2:You know, ain't nobody need buttons up in here, right, I love that I think it's so funny that you said that about having two drinks. One of my clients calls me three drinks, marie, because I always have them at least three things. And she'll be like, weren't you just drinking a Gatorade a second ago? And now you're drinking water? And I'm like, yes, and I have an iced tea or a coffee or whatever. Like I always have a collection that's the ADD part of me, for sure. And I tell my clients the same thing.
Speaker 2:I've had clients and because I do so much telehealth, I'll be meeting with people on their lunch hours and they're like, oh my God, god, are you going to be upset if I eat during session? Like no, this is your lunch hour and you wanted to do therapy during that. I don't care right. Another one is that I always find hilarious is like language and I will tell people because they'll the first time I've had so many people. They'll drop like a, a bad word into what they're talking about and you're like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm like, okay, I came up in the in the substance use world, like I, dare you to talk to me? And like I once I know I'm always very conscientious about that at first, but once I'm like, if you don't mind it, I, I, I guess, like I'm very comfortable with that, I might drop an f-bomb here and there.
Speaker 1:Maybe not enough but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like, maybe not the first session, no, maybe not I'm not gonna be like but you know what I mean Maybe not the first session? No, maybe not. I'm not going to be like, hey, you know, just launch into that. But I've had so many people who are like they'll be telling me this story and it's obviously very important to them and they will curse in it and then feel the need to apologize to me. I'm like, oh, you don't need to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's really okay, it's really fine, and so I think that always makes people feel good that I'm not going to be like, oh, no person in therapy, like like, yeah, that's, that's perfectly all right.
Speaker 1:And I mean.
Speaker 2:I know that there are always the limits and, like I love what you said about at the beginning, I do what I call like the house cleaning stuff when I meet with them and I, you know we go through all the things, especially because I I do so much telehealth, I'm like almost 100% telehealth, and so I'll go through like safety stuff and you know confidentiality, and I'll also talk about like again, if you need to eat during our session or if you need, you know, drinks or whatever, that's fine, just be, just be fully clothed when you come in. Oh yeah, or whatever, that's fine, just be, just be fully clothed when you come in.
Speaker 2:I've definitely had clients that get a little too comfy with that and we all in, like a couple of my male clients, like golden, without a shirt.
Speaker 2:I'm like I love that you are comfortable with me and I know it's the summer and you just got out of the pool, but you really shirt on the top, because that's all that I see and so I don't know, I don't know what's happening on the bottom and, like I know, I see so many people at their house, and so I know that again I'm I'm so glad, but I have now put it into my paperwork that goes out Must be fully clothed and you know it was a lot more relevant at the beginning of COVID but also don't show up loaded with therapy Outside of that. Bring yourself, bring your lunch, bring yourself in a t-shirt, in a t-shirt, and if you're again wearing shoes or slippers, I don't care. But you know something that's an interesting. It's an interesting time.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, coming back to the issue of therapists and therapy, right, and it's kind of like we sort of know in our minds the things we have to do, but it getting ourselves to do it is a different idea. And so talk a little bit about how you help therapists kind of recognize that balance, because I can imagine the issue of balance comes up. You know, not just in our profession, I'm sure. You know, I'm sure clients that we have in all professions really struggle with balance. But it's really tricky because we are here promoting self-care and balance and every client we see from you know eight to five, and then we're like, well, I can just add this 28 more things today, and then I'm exhausted and I'm, you know, on the path to burnout, and you know. So how do you, how do you help therapists in that balance?
Speaker 2:issue One of the things that I often share with them is that, in my experience, when I am the therapist who's trying to do all the things and I know that I should have boundaries but I am the therapist who's trying to do all the things and I know that I should have boundaries, but I'm not enforcing them. I don't show up for clients the way that I really need to, the way that they really deserve it, and so it's kind of like the same conversation I have with parents, new parents yeah anywhere along the spectrum.
Speaker 2:I'm like a lot of the times. For some reason, we as humans and therapists and for me, as a mother always can make an excuse about why we can put ourselves on the back burner and put everybody else in front of us, everybody else.
Speaker 2:It is so easy for us to do that it's like a second nature. One of the methods or techniques that I really try to stress with my clients. Whether it's like a second nature. One of the methods or techniques that I really try to stress with my clients whether it's their, their parents or their therapist is like, if we do not do that stuff for ourselves, how do we think we're showing up for all of these people like? We think we're showing up like, oh yeah, you need to win this week, but if you're the 32nd person that I see this week, like, how much, like, how real, how well am I showing up for you? Really? Yep, um, and that's one of the things that a lot of the times, my clients are like oh yeah, you're right, and I'm like at first, if we are not enforcing our boundaries for ourselves and for our own good, we need to think about the people that we are very much like. That part of us just slipped into, like I'm gonna help, I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna show up, and we need to just pause and be like okay, but if I show up like this, is that really good for them? And especially with therapy clients who are paying us to be there. My son, he kind of gets the amount he gets, whatever. Yeah, but my clients pay for my time and they deserve a not burnt out, like mushy headed therapist who has seen 32 other people this week, um, or whatever. Your mocked it right now like and that's different for everybody for me, like that max is like 28, 30, any more than that, and I'm pretty crispy. So that's what I try to remind myself is like they are paying you for your time, for your expertise. They need you to show up for them, and if you can't do that really well, are you really like, is that good for anybody? The answer is no, right. So that's usually the challenge that I will throw out to my therapist clients is like think about your client and like how you're showing up for them and how you want to show up for them. And if we can't do it for our own mental health at first, at least think about it like that. Usually that gets them started and I am really good when I'm working with therapists. I you know a lot of us.
Speaker 2:I don't spend a lot of time on like the basics, about going over all the things. We know those things. It's really about like I want you to set specific goals for yourself and like let's talk about what that looks like for you. What is burnout? When do you hit that point? And I'm going to be a part of that accountability for you. So I'm going to ask you next time how many sessions did you do? How are you feeling about the amount of sessions you do? How was your energy? And I go from there. So and again, every person, depending on who they are, is a little bit different, so I'd really try to tailor that specifically to them, but I think that's how I initially kind of sell them on that. That point is, like think about this from from the perspective of like, would I want my therapist to show up after they've seen 40 people? Like, what would I really get from that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know one thing that I have talked about students to be prepared for, like our own struggle with allowing. So this is how I see it, right, so I'll walk through the story is, you know? I have people who reach out to me on social media or they'll send me an email and say hey, you know, are you seeing clients, are you? You know? Do you know somebody who can help? Here's the story of my niece or my husband or my own kid or whatever, and they need a therapist in this area and I don't know what things are like for you, you know, when you're part of the country, but I think across the whole country we have shortages and high quality mental health providers, and so what happens for me when I get all of the, you know, when I get any kind of requests like that is it's a real struggle for me to find the balance.
Speaker 1:I know that if I take on another one or two or four clients or whatever, take on another one or two or four clients or whatever, then I know I'm not showing up as my best self. Right To answer. The question that you would be pushing us to answer is I know I'm not showing up as my best self. So the logical part of me says I know I have to say no, I have to have a boundary, I have to set this balance Right. But then my no means I'm leaving people in suffering or in a place of well, you've got to try another avenue. I find that struggle to be sort of my constant, like ramming up against my balance or ramming up against my boundaries, of how do I manage my own stuff around, wanting to help people, knowing I have to have a boundary so that I can show up for the current things I have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is something I hear a lot with some of my therapists, because some of them are very niche, like they are very specific yeah and so they know that, like, even if they take this person on and that person isn't getting the 100% thoroughfills that they could be, if they say no, they might not find anybody and I hear that a lot like oh, okay, well, if they get you know 60% me, that's so better than them getting nobody, because it's so hard to find people right, specific, like with my license, with my training to work with this population, and that's like one of the beauties and the curses of having a very specific training and knowing how to work with this population.
Speaker 2:So usually when I get to that place with a client, I'm like you're right, like if this does, like I get where you're coming from and I'm not saying that you're wrong, absolutely not like I get it. So what I tell them is like okay, well, how many times are you agreeing to see them? Like, are you going to see them every week? Are you going to see? Or like maybe this looks like, okay, this is what I have room for. So, yes, I will take you on as a client, but I can't guarantee weekly right now, or here's what I'm capable of. So the compromise with that right, and that's what I tell people about balance is that, even though we have a very specific idea of what our balance is, it's never going to be perfect and it's okay to compromise a little bit. It's just again, am I going to take on this client with the expectation that I'm going to have to see them every week and that's going to push me over the edge. Or can I at least start them out with, like until somebody else discharges I can? This is what I think to be constantly kind of reevaluating that so that you're making sure you're really in that space of no, I can do it every other week, or I can see you every three weeks right now or making sure you're scheduling time off for yourself so that, even if you are taking on lots of clients and seeing them every week, you are getting those little brain breaks, whatever that looks like. And also again, for some people, whatever that looks like. And also again, like for some people that self-care looks very different than I mean they could work 70 hours a week and they're fine, but it's what they do in their downtime that really makes a difference and that's where they need to work.
Speaker 2:So there is no one size fits all, and I think that's what's hard but also beautiful about therapy is that just because this thing works with this person doesn't mean it's going to work with this person, but that could also be really good. So I think it really is like balance also involves flexibility, yeah, um, and our balance, like what? What my balance is this year and this month is totally different than it, than it was last year. So there's also kind of like being very mindful. That's where that mindfulness practice comes in about, like what am I capable of right now? What has just happened? Like, what is my bandwidth? And so like even and that's why I tell people, don't ever cap yourself. They're like, well, I don't want to see this, like I only want to see this amount of people.
Speaker 2:I'm like forever yeah yeah, right now and like maybe in six months, it would be good to reevaluate is this, this too much, is this not enough, like constantly kind of be checking in with yourself about that? And that's the piece that most therapists like. They need a little bit of like accountability to keep that going. But once they start doing that, the other piece is a lot easier. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I love that you bring up that balance kind of looks different for every person and really it comes kind of back to like what are you doing with your downtime, right? So some folks can really bust out a whole bunch of clients and feel pretty good because they found the thing that energizes them and refreshes them and, you know, gives them rest throughout the week. And then others, you know they may see, you know, just a few clients a week and they still feel totally burned out week after week. So, you know, and one thing that I think about, because you know you're currently on vacation and I'm going to be headed on vacation next week, and I think there's this disconnect, at least for me and I know in talking to other mothers that this is true for some other mothers, probably not everyone but this issue of vacation being something that's supposed to recharge us, right, you know, I think in our minds we're like oh yeah, I can't wait till we get to vacation. Or, you know, I often have kind of this like nostalgic delusion.
Speaker 2:Of what it was like when we were kids to go on vacation.
Speaker 1:It is, it's so true. And even now, you know, it's like my oldest is 16. And I still will go into vacations being like, oh, it's gonna be so great and we're all gonna sit around and we're gonna like love spending time together. And then you know, inevitably, you know we're like, well, one kid wants to go here and the other kid is like I don't want to do that. And then you have to like talk them into it and you're, you know anyway, so this issue of vacation, just sort of kind of life somewhere else, and how you know I I think about this as an example of something that we kind of think is going to be our balance. And then you come home and you're like more stressed after you've gone on vacation.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I am so glad you said that, because last year, last year I got traveled out During COVID. We did not travel a whole lot Just because, like nobody was really traveling a lot and also I was just not in a financial position. Um, I was like launching my business and so like financially I just didn't have a whole lot of opportunity. And so last year was kind of, I think, one of the first years that I felt really comfortable and I was in a financial position where I could take myself on some of these things. And by the end of the year I was was like, oh my goodness, I traveled too much, I overdid it. And because there is like it's an exhausting thing to again like have to pack everything and move and like all the things and doing. And so now what I tell people is not all time off that you take has to be like vacation time and moving and traveling.
Speaker 2:I will now. This year I think I did a much better job of scheduling time off where I had things planned that I wanted to do but it wasn't necessarily travel or vacation or anything like that, like I took a break from work because I needed it or I had a week where I was like hey, I'm only seeing people three days this week and I'm taking an extra two days off or whatever. So I love that you said that, because again, so many times, especially family vacations, are filled with just to go and again, like balancing everybody else's needs and wants and what they want to do and being in an unfamiliar place and our hotel experience checking into this place was wild yesterday. Everybody else's needs and wants and what they want to do and being in an unfamiliar place and our hotel experience checking into this place was wild yesterday. There was so many snappers.
Speaker 2:So it's it's it's stressful in a very different way. There's nothing wrong with it and it's lovely to go see people that you haven't seen in a long time or be new places and do those things. But I think resting above itself can really just be us not working or demanding our normal some things of ourselves, right, like I'm taking a rest from cooking dinner we're just either going to eat, out or like I'm going to get those the Costco things that just go in the oven like whatever.
Speaker 2:So that idea of rest, it doesn't have to work one way. And for some people, like they dread their vacation, so that is of rest. It doesn't have to look one way. And for some people, like they dread their vacation, so that is not their rest time. That's right. Their rest time is when they, when they put the kids to bed at night and then they get to read for an hour in the quiet and like. So that's the thing I always tell people. It's it's how we recharge. Rest is how we feel recharged.
Speaker 2:So if you're doing something that is theoretically supposed to, you know that traditional idea of rest, but you don't feel recharged afterward. That's not how you recharge. Nothing bad about it. But recognize that, um, that travel does not recharge everybody. For some people it's like in their soul and maybe they get to do it alone All the things and they can just read a book on the beach and that that's fantastic. But it's like in their soul and maybe they get to do it alone All the things and they can just read a book on the beach and that's that's fantastic. But that doesn't. That's not what it looks like for everybody. So being very aware of how you actually feel recharged and rested and what makes your brain feel human and, you know, capable, again, that's important.
Speaker 1:I love that I did was either a blog or a podcast. I can't remember what it was, but I, you know, capable. Again, that's important. I love that I did was either a blog or a podcast. I can't remember what it was, but I, you know I talked specifically about vacations and how.
Speaker 1:You know, at least for me in particular, like I have to like wrap my head around what I want this vacation to be about. You know, is this about time together? Is it about new adventures? Is it about having fun?
Speaker 1:Because each of those three paths really requires a different mindset for me, right?
Speaker 1:Because if I'm like, hey, I want this to be about adventure, then I know it's going to be about arguing and whining, because those are new things, right, it's new for my family, it's new for the kids, and so I have to go into it, knowing, you know, adventures aren't always fun for everyone, you know, and it takes a little while for them to get into an adventure mindset. Do I want this to be about fun? Well then I have to be prepared to spend money, you know, like I tend to be really frugal, and so it's like, okay, I've got to be like okay that we spend $100 at, you know, a fast food restaurant to be on the road while we're having fun. So I think you know, preparing with expectations really helps a lot, and you, and especially as we're thinking about things that we think are going to be restful or recharging, and then we get to the end of it and we're like, well, that was terrible. Well, some of it was terrible because you were like kind of going against the grain the whole time.
Speaker 2:Right, like, the expectation we had was that it was going to be restful, but then it was never going to be restful. So when? We get back I'm like, oh, why didn't I have any rest? Like okay, well, you were, you know, doing a tour of, uh, a bunch of six flags, like that's right I thought that was gonna be restful. That's right. No, it's. You know, setting in lines in the heat during the summer. It's rest, summer it's, it's a, it's a thing it is some people want to do, but that's not how I rest and recharge.
Speaker 2:But it may be like, yeah, it might be awesome, might be fun, like again, I always talk about disneyland like that. Like you know, they say it's like the happiest place on earth, uh-huh, no, no, I'm sorry. Nothing against Disneyland. It's a wonderful place and it is. It's a lot of fun, but it is not the happiest place in the world for me.
Speaker 2:Kids love it, awesome, but I only went as an adult, so it was a little bit more stressful for me. I mean, I again it was good time. Yeah, that's not how I would. And so again, expectations, I like that you said that kind of setting the expectation, and I've had especially new parents who are like man, all I want to do is be in like a hotel room that's cold and I don't have to clean anything and I just want to sleep for like 24 hours. I'm like, okay, maybe that's what you plan for your next trip, like if you don't even have to leave town, just like leave the baby with mom and or like dad for whatever, like find somebody that you test and just go sleep. Yes, fine, yes, you know whatever you need to fully recharge, and I know for a lot of parents it is sleep or just not having anybody need anything from you for 24 to 48 hours.
Speaker 1:That's really nice sometimes oh my gosh, All right. Well, we could keep going forever. I want you to get back to your vacation. So tell people how they can find you and the work you do.
Speaker 2:So I mostly am working right now with parents. I do a lot of trauma works and traumatic parenting experiences, but also, honestly, just the adjustments of becoming a new parent. I was a postpartum depression experiencer I don't like to say survivor, mine wasn't that extreme, but I went through that. So I have a lot of that lived experience. But just parenting, parenting challenges, co-parenting what's a big thing for me Also been working with a lot of therapists, parents or not. You can find me on my website. That's the best, honestly, and it's just mariesloancounselingcom. I've got lots of resources on there for parents, for trauma, just a lot of information, and hopefully in this upcoming year in the year 2025, I'm going to be creating some lovely resources that will be downloadable on the website as well. So those will be coming soon.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I'm so grateful. I look forward to hearing about your novel. I will, If I finish it one day you'll finish by the end of this year you will be, um, then you'll be an esteemed best-selling author and then I'll be, you know, just making millions off of all the people who want to listen to this episode.
Speaker 2:Not really I love that you're putting it out there in the universe. I'm not opposed to that, uh, the expectations realistic, whatever. But uh, me I think, even if I never even get this book published, this is one of the things that helps me recharge, that helps me feel really good after I like have sat down and just kind of like tap on the keyboard for an hour, like there's one of those things that kind of gives me a boost. And so, published, not published, whatever people read it, people don't. It's, it's the process that I love.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, thank you for having me back. I always love having you here and until we find something else to just sort of discuss on our, our vacation or pre-vacation, I'm just grateful that you're here and that you took some time today. So, and listener, thank you for being here also and until next time, stay safe and stay well. Ciao.
