Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep123: Exploring Religious Trauma: Insights with Dr. Essence Rivers
Discover the complexities of religious trauma with Dr. Essence Rivers, a licensed clinical psychologist known for her work with marginalized and intersectional groups. Dr. Rivers brings her wealth of knowledge to our discussion, shedding light on how religious trauma can reshape an individual's worldview and sense of self. We promise you'll gain a deeper understanding of how to identify and support those who may be suffering from these often-overlooked experiences, enhancing both personal and communal well-being.
We navigate through the labyrinth of spiritual abuse, uncovering the fine line between individual actions and the systems they operate within. Dr. Rivers helps us identify the red flags of manipulative religious practices and their potential impact on relationships and parenting. Reflecting on the teachings of Jesus, our conversation reveals how religion should inspire connection and compassion, not isolation or shame. This episode carefully distinguishes between spiritual abuse and religious trauma, offering insights into how they may differ yet interconnect over time.
As the conversation unfolds, we explore the often unspoken misalignment between professed values and actual practices within faith communities. Dr. Rivers shares personal stories of navigating these complex environments, illustrating the struggle for inclusivity and authenticity in religious spaces. We conclude with practical advice on finding safe and welcoming faith communities, emphasizing the importance of transparency, inclusivity, and personal well-being. Whether you're seeking understanding or solutions, this episode is a thoughtful guide through the challenges of religious trauma and spiritual growth.
Here are some of the resources Dr. Rivers shared after the episode.
https://www.livingout.org/storage/files/shares/Audit_Online.pdf
https://www.churchclarity.org/
https://www.thereap.org/
https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/church-community-resources
https://www.notinourchurch.com/
https://www.snapnetwork.org/
https://projects.propublica.org/credibly-accused/
https://floodlit.org/
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/abuse-of-faith/database/
https://baptistaccountability.org/
https://watchkeep.org/
Dr. Rivers' favorites:
Dan Minor and Harvest Sarasota
Carlos Rodriguez and The Happy Givers
David Hayward and Naked Pastor
Unconventional Pastor Paul
Tim Whittaker and the New Evangelicals
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
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www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Trammell. I am a licensed psychologist and professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm the director of the Master's Mental Health Counseling Program. So anybody interested in becoming a therapist, hey, check it out. We are a hybrid program. I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 1:We're just starting another cohort, so that's kind of where my mind's at right now, but this is Things you Learn in Therapy, and I am really excited about this topic because it hasn't been something that I have covered or I've had anybody talk about on the show. And you're just in for a great expert to talk about this. She just made a face. Please don't call me that. Look, you are an expert in understanding people and how they relate to different phenomena that happen, and so that's why you're here, so I'm excited about this. So Dr Essence Rivers is here with me today to talk about religious trauma trauma that might be experienced by a person who attends or is a part of a spiritual group of some kind, and so we're going to kind of dig into that here in just a second. But before we do that, would you mind introducing yourself to listeners and tell us one fun thing about you?
Speaker 2:Of course, so you already said my name is Dr Essence Rivers. I am a licensed clinical psychologist, work with my practice customized behavioral health care. I specialize in working with people that have intersectional identities, multiply, marginalized groups of people. So the majority of the people that I work with are queer, neurodivergent people of color. That is all of those. Things are things that are groups that I belong to, and so I did not set out to work with these groups of people, but they found me and it's been very, very fulfilling and I think it's really illuminated some of the topics that maybe we don't cover in normal therapy school but that there is like a significant group of people that are dealing with, and religious trauma is one of those. So I'm really excited to have this conversation.
Speaker 1:That's amazing and that was a lot of fun things about you. But was that one fun thing?
Speaker 2:Oh, that wasn't my fun thing, my one fun thing I am planning a wedding. I'm getting married in 36 days.
Speaker 1:You know, I think there might be a listener too. That's like I'm not sure planning the wedding is as fun as like the wedding.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I mean, I have ADHD. So my fiance and I we both tried to take advantage of the momentum right after our engagement and we did a lot of stuff early. So now it's just like the little finishing touches and we still like each other. So would recommend planning the majority of things when you're excited.
Speaker 1:It's so good and you know, as long as you yeah, still like each other, you know, toward the end of the planning, then you feel like you've got someone you can stick with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's going to be a good marriage.
Speaker 1:We'll see it's going to be a good, a good marriage. We'll see. It's great, I love it. I do also kind of remember in planning our wedding that you know everything. There's like a crunch time at the beginning of like getting all the big decisions made and then you know you have a few things and then it's like crunch time at the very end. But there was kind of this lull in some spaces where you kind of made all the decisions and you're just kind of waiting for the day.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh. Yeah, we tried to break it up where we had one thing to work on a week, yeah, and that has been nice. So she takes care of all the like, coordinating the finances, and I have been like the craft person, and our families are wonderful and they've been really helpful, and so have our friends, so it's worked out to have a community of people that have been supporting us.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. That's so good. Okay, we're talking about religious trauma today, and this seems to be something that is becoming a little more mainstream. I think there are people who, one they hear this definition, they can probably relate to experiencing that many years ago. Perhaps I don't feel like I've heard about it. I mean, am I missing it or have you heard of it prior to like the last five or seven years?
Speaker 2:I'm like 28, I think. Yeah, so I was still like coming of. You're like Beth, I was 12. Okay, yeah, I'm like trying to learn how the world works at that age, but I would say like I don't. I think I did experience that when I was much younger but, like you said, I don't think there was a name for it. Yeah, there was, like we knew about like the, the stereotypes, I guess, about sexual abuse and like the Catholic church and what I was experiencing and the evangelical church wasn't like that bad compared to what they were so like. It was like you didn't complain, but compared to what they were so like, it was like you didn't complain. But as I grew up and I became an adult and I was like seeing the impacts of how the church impacted the way that I saw myself in the world, I was like there's something here and right around that time is when I feel like people started to talk about it and put a name to those experiences.
Speaker 1:And I think it was. You know, it's interesting because I think what we're going to talk about today is that it was tricky to label it a negative thing because it was associated with the church. So let's just start by like what is kind of your working definition? How do you explain to clients or people what this idea of religious trauma is?
Speaker 2:Trauma itself is any experience that we have that really like strongly impacts the way that we see ourselves, other people in the world. Religious trauma is very similar in the sense that, like you go in and a negative change about how you see yourself, other people in the world, occurs, and so church can be an environment that is super helpful and super uplifting and I mean we know that from the therapy, literature or whatever. Spirituality is a protective factor. However, if you are a person that is being in an environment and you are constantly like feeling like you are sinful and you're a bad person and you're constantly trying to like you are sinful and you're a bad person and you're constantly trying to like make up for it, but you never will and god doesn't like you, but also you owe this like gratitude to god for all the work that you've done.
Speaker 2:Like it's a, it's a excuse, my, it's a mind fuck. Like it's very confusing on, like it feels almost like stockholm syndrome, where it's like, oh, I'm supposed to love this person who maybe loves me, maybe, except for there are some conditions and hopefully that's not me. But I think religious trauma is different because it takes this thing that is like not always like observable and we talk about like the, the idea of the divine, and it's not something that you can like distance yourself from. It's not something that you can like get a restraining order or something like. It's just always there and it really is one of those traumas that come after your identity, not just something that you did or an event, but like who you are. There's pain and suffering and everything that comes from not feeling like you are worthy enough in a place that is allegedly supposed to be open to all.
Speaker 1:That is a lot, oh, my goodness. Already we're diving all the way in right. So I think I'm not holding back, I know, I just really appreciate you, just sort of jumping right in. And I think one thing that you and I talked about before we started recording is that we want to be really clear. You know, both of us would consider ourselves to be Christian, we both believe in God, we both grew up in the church, and so I think we want to make it really clear, both because of the profession that we're in but the people that we are. We are not calling religion bad. We are not calling Christians or anybody who believes in any kind of spiritual entity bad people, or that it's wrong. What we're trying to highlight are the experiences that some people may have had and to bring light to it. Right, I mean, I think that that is what our goal is is to bring light to an experience that many people may have had and to let people know that they're not alone in experiencing that.
Speaker 2:That's what we want to do today. I think that one thing that we want to make sure that we're always doing is separating individuals from the systems they operate in. The church is an institution as much as it is a group, a community, and so, like, everybody is doing what they have seen potentially and so like, yes, there are a lot of evangelical scandals and within various sects of Christianity and even other religions that do like really rough, horrible things to people, and there are really the same environments that do really great, awesome, uplifting things to people, and so I don't think that we're really going after individuals as much as highlighting how operating in a system like a church without the proper knowledge or without knowing what's safe or not safe, how dangerous that can be when we don't have the terminology.
Speaker 1:So can you give me an example or two of some signs of spiritual abuse or religious trauma? How might a person, what might a person be saying inside themselves, or how might a person be feeling if they've experienced this?
Speaker 2:So I had this hyper fixation, for I mean, it's still going on like the past, like two, three years at this point with cults.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I just like they they get me right and so I've really.
Speaker 2:I think that has kind of helped to differentiate, even for me, like the difference between just like normal participating in the church and what it might look like if it is more like abusive or traumatizing, because like inherently, like the church is calling for a lot of your attention and maybe like your time and your money and like those it's a commitment, just being there and listening and maybe feeling convicted that you want to do something different or maybe you recognize from what somebody's saying that I need to work on that.
Speaker 2:That is like kind of the function of the church. However, when we start to control how people can connect with the divine so we say like, oh, you can only pray and read the Bible. There's no way that you could connect with God and insert other situation here and we really try to like control how people do God, that is a sign that something maybe isn't safe. Also, when we do things like manipulate shame and try to control the behavior of others based on a faith. Others based on a faith. That is an area where that's like a red flag.
Speaker 2:I think it also comes up in like parenting and like kind of like trying to control how you do relationships outside of the church.
Speaker 2:And so if you're saying, like parents, if you're a good parent, you'll homeschool your kids and if you send them to public school you're a bad, not a good, christian parent, then like that is a sign that like wait a second, there are so many different ways that we can do life and still belong to this community.
Speaker 2:So I think really, when we start to deny or prevent the individual for the sake of religion, that is slippery slope. Um, but I think another and kind of like my final big thing that sticks out is when we use religion to prevent protecting vulnerable people or to protect abusers. So if we say like uh, this happens a lot where people might be in a violent or an unhealthy marriage, let's say, and they go to the church because that's most people's like first support network, say, hey, my husband's abusing me, like I want to leave. And if the leaders instruct this person to stay in this like really unhealthy, unsafe environment for whatever reason, under the name of religion or under the name of like well, you're a pastor's wife, or like whatever, like no, no, we can't use this belief system to harm some people and hurt other people in the name of God that is abusive.
Speaker 1:As I was thinking about this topic this morning, I was thinking about the Jesus that I have read about and kind of know about was not manipulative. The Jesus that I have read about and know about didn't make people feel yuck. He was the opposite of those things. And so I was trying to put like a name on this feeling that people might have and I just keep coming back to yuck and I know that's not helpful. But you know, like I don't think.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes it's hard because you're right, it's kind of this slippery slope where it's. You know you can't really ever touch this relationship. You know you don't. It's not like a. You know you and I are battling it out in the middle of the grocery store and you say something passive, aggressive. I can really narrow that in and hone that down. But I don't think religion is ever meant to make us feel isolated or less than, or that we should be ashamed. I just don't see that in the actions or the words of Jesus, at least for Christianity right now and other spiritual disciplines. I don't know that, but I think most religions are meant to be unifying.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean even within Christianity, when you read the Bible it says the good news. Like when you read the Bible it says like the good news, like it's called good news. So if it's not making people feel good, we may have lost our way. Like if it's making people feel bad, it's making people feel disconnected from themselves or less than, or shame, or any of anxiety, depression, like not seeing that they're valuable and worthy and important and like an integral part as they are, then we've missed it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So this slippery slope probably I mean, obviously there's perhaps egregious traumas that someone has experienced. You brought up sexual trauma and certain parts of Christianity. Obviously we know about those, we hear about those, but I have to believe that religious traumatization also can happen in small ways, that that kind of build and so so. So how does that kind of happen for folks?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so I think that an important, I guess, like key word might be just to differentiate spiritual abuse from religious trauma. Okay, so when it comes to spiritual abuse, that is when we have those one-on-one relationships where a person is manipulating another person using religion Okay, it is more relational in that sense, and so one some type of injury or like something that happens, yeah, that's great. When it comes to religious trauma, that is like the exposure to this culture, community, religion that negatively impacts you over time. It doesn't. It's not like a single event. It builds over time and adds on. And so I think that when we talk about religious trauma, it usually starts with these rules right, there's some level of like, there's a standard that is set and that varies by congregation or church or leader or whatever, but there is like these are the rules right?
Speaker 2:And when we set those rules, we can often prevent people from doing the things like exploring and coming to their own conclusions. Like they can't develop in their own way to critically think about stuff because it's being prescribed to them. Socializing A lot of times like some churches, especially ones that are like risky for trauma may isolate people and say like you shouldn't associate with those people, fill in whatever group you want to there and kind of pull you away socially. They pull you away emotionally. They tell you how to think, they tell you how to believe, they tell you what to care about and what to not care about.
Speaker 2:When you are discouraged or even like prevented or prohibited from thinking independently, then the things that like impact you as an individual, maybe like make you feel icky or make you think like is that true? Like all of those little like intuition type things that we have as individuals, start to be like I'm not supposed to listen to that. I can't listen to that, I'm not trustworthy. I need to listen to this other person, I can't. I'm bad and I can't believe me.
Speaker 2:And over time, we stop seeing ourselves as worthy of having opinions and having like convictions and judgments and perceptions of things in favor of relying on whatever is being told to you. It takes away your individuality and when we get to that place where we no longer trust ourselves, that can make us more vulnerable for like a one-on-one kind of spiritual abuse situation incident. But you were walking around your life with this fear and shame and feeling out of place or not feeling like you can connect with people or not seeing yourself as a good person or feeling so overwhelmed by the need to keep up and prove yourself and feel like you're worth something, then damage has been done.
Speaker 1:When we reach that point, so this is really helpful actually just to separate. You know, spiritual abuse would be more like a you said relational thing, one-on-one or an interpersonal sort of abuse situation, whereas this religious trauma, and I would imagine you can have one and not the other, that they don't have to be like a prescription where you have to have both. But earlier you had talked about conviction. This is a big part of I know you're already laughing.
Speaker 2:It's just like funny. If you grew up in the church, you know that word.
Speaker 1:Know this word right. You know this word conviction, and I've heard spiritual leaders and I've experienced conviction as uncomfortable. And so how do we differentiate Okay, so somebody's kind of calling me out and it's uncomfortable, versus someone's calling me out and becomes more than just uncomfortable more than just uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in the way that I think about it, conviction is very similar to the emotional reaction that we experienced, like cognitive dissonance. Okay, so little overview, like let's say that my values are the things that are important to me are that I am loving and accepting to other people. Yeah, right, so that is like my belief system, that is like how I'm seeing the world, and then my action is I cut somebody off in traffic and then I scream at them. Yeah, when I leave that situation, I might be like, oh, I didn't like that. It's because my values and my actions are like absolutely in conflict, like very directly, and so we start to feel this kind of uneasy, icky feeling when our actions don't match what is important to us. And the only way to really make that ickiness go away is either change your action, so don't do that anymore, or change your beliefs and say like, oh, it's okay, I can still be loving and accepting, and scream at people on the street, right, like that's really. The only way to make that like dissonance go away is like you have to get your values and your behaviors on the same page.
Speaker 2:Um, which is something I talk about in therapy a lot and I I believe that conviction is very similar that if I'm saying that this is what's important to me as a member of a faith community and these are, like the, the values that really align with what's important to me, and then my actions don't match that, I will feel icky because that's not what I was aiming to do. That experience is very different from I'm doing things that feel good to me and some other person who is not me is telling me that I shouldn't feel good about that. Like I'm good, my values and actions are on the same page, and then another person comes in and says that that's a problem because there is nothing to my knowledge that requires all people or all members of a specific faith to have the same values and to express them in the same way.
Speaker 2:That was not a requirement of being involved in the faith, and so when people start to control and say, like you care about being nice to people, what you actually should care about, is that's not a good sign.
Speaker 1:So what you just said, I'm going to say it again for the people in the back.
Speaker 1:So what you just said, I'm going to say it again for the people in the back.
Speaker 1:The church that I have known, or the way that I have understood how God calls folks to be, is not that all of us are supposed to be the same, have the same values or think the same way. And yet we have a lot of division in a lot of spiritual spaces for this very reason, and it feels to me like it could become a breeding ground for religious trauma to occur, because we come in with this bias that people are going to think like us. I think we have to acknowledge that that is a really common human experience. Most of us believe, most people think the way we do, they act the way we do. That's just like a cognitive bias that all of us have, and so if we're not really aware of that, when we step into spaces where groups of people are, we can become dangerous. Not that we're going to necessarily engage in spiritual abuse, but we may be stepping toward that slippery slope of not engaging the way that we were called to engage in spiritual faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I went to this. I forget where I went. I went to some like botanical garden within the last year and I was just walking around, kind of like looking at the different signs.
Speaker 2:You know they'll label the flowers or whatever but there was a sign that was talking about, like what are the most healthy ecosystems?
Speaker 2:Like what makes environments that work really, really, really well work, and this is with flowers and bugs and all that. And they said, the more diverse an ecosystem is, the more likely it is to thrive, because everything is kind of working together and each thing is kind of filling in the gaps of the other thing. If you are a person that believes that, like God created everything in the universe, diversity is like very clearly a part of his design in every other aspect of things. So it gets really weird when we get to talking about people and there's like this expectation that everybody acts the exact same, dresses the same, presents the same, believes the same, because that is the opposite of what nature is telling us is what is required to make stuff work and to make it successful. Every other parts of his design call for diversity. So I strongly believe that like there's a reason for that and the healthiest churches are not threatened by difference but actually embrace that and utilize that to make the environment better, not worse.
Speaker 1:Okay, so earlier you had mentioned that religious trauma usually starts with the rules that are established and how those rules are established. We could probably spend a lot of time on that.
Speaker 1:But there's part of me that could imagine a person who says, yeah, I'm totally down for diversity, I love new ways of thinking, I love all kinds of people and then the unsaid or the asterisk is as long as they abide by the rules. Abide by the rules. I don't know if you experienced that too, but I just feel like when I've talked to people who have been hurt by the church, that's where it feels like it comes down to. It's like this illusion of everyone's welcome here. We love all people asterisk, but you have to be a certain kind of person with a certain kind of belief, with a certain kind of partner. Otherwise, well, yeah, except for you, maybe we'll just like pray this out of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so I was. I will be so honest. I was done with church, so I had. I had kind of some some rough stuff growing up as a teenager, because I have a lot of opinions and ask a lot of questions. I have ADHD, I wanted to know. Stuff didn't make sense and I my parents are in an interracial relationship and so I had like a lot of exposure to people different than me and so when I was in an environment where people were maybe like demonizing difference, I was like that doesn't align with kind of like how I am. So growing up I was always kind of like that problem child.
Speaker 2:Um, in my church and even moving into kind of college, there were still people that would lovingly allegedly contact my parents about their concerns regarding my salvation, um, which was a whole thing. So by the time, um, um, which was a whole thing. So by the time, um, george Floyd was murdered and there were like a lot of human rights issues that Christians were like on the wrong side of according to my values. Um, I was done if I've disclosed that, that I'm marrying a woman and she's like the first girl I ever dated, like my very first girlfriend's going to be my wife and it's like this whole like crazy thing.
Speaker 2:That's irrelevant here.
Speaker 2:But I think that she grew up Catholic and I grew up Christian and, like our families are not like queer or anything and they have been in church.
Speaker 2:And so when we were talking and we got together we were like this is really important to me, like this is important and it's not something that we're really ready to let go of in terms of like a relationship.
Speaker 2:And so we church shopped a little bit and nothing felt right, or it didn't feel like like we had to pretend to be like friends, or I was the only person of color in the room, or like there were just like all of these different barriers of things. That just like did not feel good. And so we moved to where we live now in Sarasota and I was like all right girl, like we have like one or two more visits before we just say like this isn't for us anymore and we kind of figure something out. Um, and we walked into our church now and on the like when you walk in, like right in front of when you walk through into the sanctuary, there was a sign um, and it's by like the naked pastor I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, but it said like, in this home, all are welcome.
Speaker 2:No like exclusions or exceptions or anything like that. And I was like, oh, oh, my gosh. Like okay, that's a good sign. I've never seen a sign like that in a church.
Speaker 2:But when we actually, like, got into the service, uh, before they played any music, before anything happened, um, the guy's name's Dan, um, got up and said like we believe here that clarity is kindness, so we want to be clear with you that, like, everybody is welcome and has the same access to God, to leadership, to everything in here, regardless of how you vote, who you love, what you look like, et cetera. And every single Sunday they get up there and that is the first thing that they say. And that is like the only way I I know God was. Like the only way this girl's going to church is if it is explicit that, like she's in, like it is.
Speaker 2:And I think that it's just so crazy the, the trauma or the re-traumatization of going and trying to find a safe place in an environment that has hurt you, because you sit there and you're like are they gonna say it? Are they gonna do it? Are they gonna do the thing that tells me that I'm not allowed to be here. It's so unclear I almost feel like it's kinder for churches to publish the asterisk and just say like, yeah, we don't like gay people here. Okay, cool, I can save myself a sunday and not go there, rather than this like illusion of inclusion which is like not real and it's more harmful than it is helpful to the people that really need to hear that message.
Speaker 1:That's so good. I mean, I love everything about being explicit. I tend to preach restorative practices where I'm trained in restorative practices, and a big part of that is to be explicit about our expectations, and I think it makes a great leader who can be explicit, and I think the repetition of that explicit instruction then creates culture, right? So then it's like, hey, if you're a part of the congregation and you don't want to love a person who is different than you in some value or identity, then this may not be the place for you either. Right, we kind of talked about this. You know religious trauma kind of gradually comes, or you know you might experience like little parts. So then are there sort of stages, or you know that if you start to feel this, you might be, you know, in kind of this first part of religious trauma, or is it just like this continuum of hurts?
Speaker 2:There are some people. I did a little bit of like digging to see what I could find in regard to like stages. So there are kind of some stages so like the first thing would just be like experiencing a trauma in the first place, and that can be a variety of things. Anything that happens and it could be directly related to religion like something that happened within the church or with a faith leader could also be indirectly linked to your religion. I think for myself, even seeing different things that happen in the news, um, for me can be like re-traumatizing. Um, when I see them and I think the the murder of george floyd is such a good example because it was so like visible is like that was traumatizing for like black people across america to see that on tv, yeah, and first, like trauma happens, but for people of faith. The second kind of stage is that we view our trauma through our lens, that we see the world and if religion is a part of that, then that is going to color how you interpret the things that happen to you and if you look and you say, okay, this is terrible, but, like God, this is what God believes about me, this is what God believes about people like me. This is what God believes about. Whatever, and you can use that to kind of like cope with that trauma, then great.
Speaker 2:But other times people may turn that, or the religious doctrine that you've been taught is weaponized and seen as something that is a threat to your salvation. So, oh, because you believe that or because that upsets you, maybe there's something wrong with you. Maybe there's something wrong with your position in heaven. Oh, because you approve of this behavior, yeah, god's not going to like that. Like it starts to go from just being an event or an experience to something that the divine feels about you and why you are, like less qualified. Um, and if we do not have a community, a religious community, that is there to like challenge that and remind us who we are, and like who god is and that god is good and that we are good, like, if you don't have that to fall back on after these events where you start to question your own worth, then you can be re-traumatized because all these people are like, yeah, you should feel bad, yeah, you should be upset, yeah, you are the problem.
Speaker 2:I think another example of where this happens a lot is with people that struggle with addiction, like you use substances and that is inherently traumatic. To like lose control of your own ability to like make choices. Um, so, already, like addicts are a vulnerable group of people. And then it might start to like weigh on how you feel about yourself and if you're a good person. And then if the church gets up and is like, yeah, and the crackhead down the street, blah, blah, blah, oh, okay, so now we're using religion to like validate these horrible beliefs I hold about myself.
Speaker 2:That is like when we really start to cement things and there are some thinking patterns that maybe you might notice that you're like okay, like that might be worth paying attention to. So when our fear of hell starts to lead us to suppress any questions or doubts or our own intuition, that is a common thinking pattern that can result. So our fear of like getting in trouble or doing it wrong leads us to like deny what's going on with us. When a fear of being around people that aren't like believers or aren't like believers or aren't like us, or aren't christians or aren't whatever religion we belong to lead us to start isolating from people, that's a sign that there's something there, and things like fear of being dirty or unclean or sinful, lead you to repress the things that your heart and your mind, like you as your core, are telling you. That may also be a sign that you just want to examine your relationship with religion and make sure that it is consistent with the you that God made.
Speaker 1:Those are all really helpful. Helpful or other vulnerable populations that might experience this perhaps more than traditional person who doesn't have any marginalized identities.
Speaker 2:I would say that there are two that stick out to me, two populations of people that would like be the most hurt.
Speaker 2:The first would be like the lgbtq plus community, like they have, um their sexuality and identity at the core has been weaponized for as long as we can remember as long as um church has been a thing exactly, and so there is already for queer christians or queer people that have grown up in the church, um, that are at high risk of facing things like rejection, discrimination and spiritual abuse turns into psychological distress and a really complex understanding of who they are, their connection with faith and their connection with the community sometimes families, like all of those things. Um, and we also know that, following an experience of religious trauma, lgbtq plus people are at a higher risk for, uh, attempting and completing suicide, abusing substances, being homeless and developing other mental health problems. Um, so they are a group. Um. We also know that conversion therapy is illegal for mental health professionals, not everywhere, but in like 27 states. So which, which is crazy, but that's a different thing.
Speaker 2:But religious leaders don't have a code of ethics, and so a pastor can offer conversion therapy and who's going to hold them accountable? Nobody, except for their like congregation or if they belong to something, but like they don't have to abide by the same things that mental health professionals do. So I think people that seek spiritual counseling instead of mental health counseling, if damage is going to be done, there's no accountability. You can't call the board, you can't report them, they can't lose their license, they just like go on with their lives, which is harmful.
Speaker 1:I literally had never thought about that. That pastors don't have a board of ethics. Yeah, that's a that's kind of a mind blown moment for me. I think there I've I've known some incredible pastors. I should say that, now that you know, if I have a pastor of mine who's listening, I, these are, these are amazing people that I know. But it yeah, I mean it's wild to think that there's no yeah, like standard code that says these are the things you can do and can't do, like we have in psychology and in mental health counseling in kind of their own way, which is good for some situations.
Speaker 2:But it is also risky if you're a vulnerable population because the normal avenues that you might go like legally or whatever like you don't have those to protect you.
Speaker 2:So queer people in general are like a vulnerable group, I think the other is the, I guess, disabled people in general. Um, I think that this has been since beginning of at least. What we've read in the bible is like people have viewed like different abilities or challenges, um things like I mean even like intellectual disabilities or being wheelchair bound or whatever like they've. They've viewed it through the lens of like a faith deficit. It's like, oh, I know there's like one of those stories in the bible which is like well, why does this guy like have these problems? Is it his fault or his parents fault?
Speaker 2:yeah and jesus was like you missed it, like nobody's, like it's just, it just is. But um, I met somebody that is um in a wheelchair and she was talking about how, like people always come up and like pray, oh, I pray for you to be healed, I want you to be healed. And rather than like accepting this person who is in front of us, that is a full human, we're like, oh, hopefully God can, can fix you, yeah, and like by doing that, even though prayer is like well intentioned, what we're doing is like affirming that there's something wrong with you but like we'll fix it. And I don't think that people walk into communities of faith dealing with their lives and like trying to find hope, to be told what's wrong with them.
Speaker 1:That is good and intense and truth. I think there's a listener who was like you. Maybe their situation is different, but they're feeling very done with church and maybe they have tried a church or two and had experiences, like you mentioned, where it was like, yeah, nope, nope, nope. How does a person here's the really messed up thing right, Because as soon as I say it, I'm thinking in my head what I'm going to say next and it's like, oh, it can be spun like a trillion ways, right. So it's like how do people have faith and that's the word I was going to say, that I know. But how do people have faith to keep going? I can imagine the cognitive struggle of being like, well, I just have to have faith that I have to keep going. I can imagine the cognitive struggle of being like, well, I just have to have faith that I have to keep going to church. But then if I'm doing therapy with somebody who is in an abusive relationship, I'm not saying to them like, yeah, keep trying church week after week, keep on going.
Speaker 1:That's not a faith issue. I'm not like. Well, have more faith and stay in that relationship. Come home again when he's drunk or when she's, you know, feeling explosive. Keep, keep trying so like how do we, how do we balance that in this sort of spiritual situation?
Speaker 2:think back to, like the early church. People weren't going to buildings, they were gathering in communities, yeah, yeah, so the the very early example of what a church is supposed to represent is an environment of people that affirm you, that love you, that support you and that like show up. And I think that we can. I know that deconstruction is like a buzzword, um, and I had a friend that actually presented it. She was like I'm not deconstructing, I'm expanding, and I think my encouragement to people in that position would be being willing to expand your understanding of what faith looks like for you. If we trust that God is all powerful, all knowing all these things that the Bible says, then we can also trust that God will meet you where you're at. I mean, like God met Paul on his well, saul on his way to murder people. So like I think you're good if you sit at home, like I think God can get to you too, and so I think that one would be like take some time to like rebuild you, your sense of self, your sense of like what community is and what you need in a community, and once you kind of know what's important to you, there are different resources and I'll send them over to you, that I found that I, if you want to put it in like the show notes or whatever there is a organization they're called Living Out and they made like an audit for churches, just some questions that you can kind of ask or keep in mind on trying to to kind of evaluate if this church is safe or not. There's also a lot I was shocked when I started to look at like accountability databases for churches, because we don't have like that legal route but there are people that are doing the work to document accusations of unhealthy like financial abuse, sexual abuse, like all of these things, and they're like online. You can find them and so you can look up the church that you are planning on attending. Church clarityorg is the one that sticks out to me the most, where you can type in the name and, if it's been registered, they'll tell you their stance on some of these like really big issues, and so, rather than having to like walk through the door to figure it out, you can do a little bit of digging about an organization, about a church beforehand.
Speaker 2:And I also have some friends it's so funny I've met like all my gay friends at church because our church is like so inclusive. I I also have some friends. It's so funny I've met like all my gay friends at church because our church is like so inclusive. I've just met some really cool people, but one couple that I just love them and they told they were telling me and my fiance, emily, about how they had kind of gone through the same process of us as being, you know, a lesbian couple and trying to figure out where to go. And they just scheduled a meeting with the leadership. You know a lesbian couple and trying to figure out where to go. And they just scheduled a meeting with the leadership. They, before they got involved, they went like one time and then they sat down and they said, okay, tell us how you feel about these things.
Speaker 2:And I think that it is a lot easier to detach from something if you're not into deep. And so I wouldn't like go to a church, get all involved, jump into every single thing, join all these Bible studies and ministries and do all that. And then try to like make that, because now you're already like you already have community, you've already built things. The loss is way bigger. So I would be like really kind of guarded at the beginning. Do your homework up front and trust your gut, because that is there to guide you on if it's a good spot for you or not.
Speaker 2:And if you're feeling like, oh, this doesn't feel right, I feel uneasy, I'm nervous, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, then that might not be a place for you. But I knew within seconds of going to the church that I go to now. We went to one church. We walked in. I saw that sign. They said clarity is kindness. We left the church service, which was excellent. I got in the car and I sobbed and I just like the whole way home I just cried because I was like I never thought that I would feel like this with a church again and like I'm lucky because I know that there's not churches like this all the time. But there are organizations and websites that are like gaychurchcom and there's some other ones that help you to find things. So I would look at those resources that are out there when you know what you're looking for, and the people that are on those lists put themselves there.
Speaker 2:They weren't nominated, so they paid a fee or they decided that they wanted to be known to the public as inclusive, which is a hard thing to do. It's in the Christian community, and so I would go for those ones that are. You don't need to like go through a process and help them change and be affirming like go where you know you're safe. That's supposed to be your safe spot. You don't have to do the work on Sundays or whatever day you go to church to like belong. It's not fair.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for sharing that story and I love that. We are gonna kind of end here like I love your message of go where you know you're safe. You're already not you. You although you're a part of this also you know if you're in any sort of marginalized population, you're already every day, every second of your life, fighting a revolution, right, whatever that is for you. But go where you're safe and don't feel like you have to make all the changes every second of the day, like you can let Sunday or whatever day be about. Just be safe and do the worship that you want to do. That's great, okay, so, dr Essence Rivers, tell people how they can find you.
Speaker 2:So you can find me on social media at Dr Essence Rivers it's just my name and then the name of the practice that I work at is Customized Behavioral Healthcare. We offer both like coaching and therapy, as well as consulting and training services. So if there are churches that are listening, that are like, oh, we want to be more inclusive, that is absolutely within kind of where my heart is and the work that we do. And yeah, I think I mean you can Google me, I'll pop up on LinkedIn also. So just different places that we can connect. Essence isn't a super common name so I'm easier to track down.
Speaker 1:It's true, your last name is is your last name going to change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm hyphenating, so my last name will be Deming Rivers. So it'll throw me all off.
Speaker 1:but that's great, and by the time this is posted, you will have gotten married probably.
Speaker 2:No way, yeah, so you're going to need to look up Dr Essence Deming Rivers, but my social media probably won't change because that's really long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's that's harder to do, but, yeah, okay, thank you for being here, thank you for this conversation and you know, I I want to encourage people that if you had kind of a strong reaction to any of the things we talked about, I encourage you to take a breath, find somebody to chat with, feel free to kind of reach out to even a therapist, for something like this is very appropriate. So thank you for being here and saying yes to talking about this hard topic. Yeah, but worth it. But worth it. Worth the discomfort, worth the discomfort. I love that. I love that. I love that. Listener, thank you for being here and until next time, stay safe, stay well, go where you feel safe. I love that. Ciao.
