Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 124: Navigating Teacher Support, Coping Skills, and Relationship Dynamics with Desiree Argentina
Join us for an enlightening conversation with special guest Desiree Argentina, a licensed independent clinical social worker, who shares her insightful journey of transitioning to Washington State and the hurdles of obtaining a new professional license. We take a deep dive into the shifting landscape of middle and high schools, especially in the aftermath of COVID-19. With rising violence and behavioral issues among students, the stress on educators has reached unprecedented levels. Together, we unpack the critical need for appreciating and supporting teachers and why their well-being should be a priority for us all, including educators, parents, and mental health professionals.
Ever wondered if your coping mechanisms are genuinely helping you or if they're a crutch leading to burnout? We explore the fine line between healthy and unhealthy coping skills, using busyness as a prime example. Understanding what drives our need to be constantly busy—a productive tool or avoidance tactic—can be the key to better mental and emotional health. This discussion equips you with the knowledge to distinguish between adaptive coping strategies that build resilience and maladaptive ones that may only offer temporary relief.
Relationships are complex, and the misconception that avoiding conflict preserves them is something we tackle head-on. We believe in addressing issues rather than sweeping them under the rug, as avoidance often leaves unresolved tension. By introducing acceptance and commitment therapy, we highlight the significance of aligning our actions with personal values. Self-awareness and open communication, especially among adolescents, are crucial in recognizing unhealthy dynamics and fostering healthier relationships. Listen in to gain valuable insights into creating a more balanced and fulfilling life.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel, and this is Thank you for Learning Therapy. I am grateful you're here today. I am a licensed psychologist and actually I'm a professor of psychology. Now I've got to stop saying associate professor. This summer I was promoted, which is fun, and now I've got to say a new thing. So anyway, I teach at IU East, indiana University East in Richmond, indiana, and I teach mostly graduate students in the master's in mental health counseling program.
Speaker 1:So I'm training future therapists. I hope that I'm training the kind of future generation in a positive way, hopefully. So I am excited about today's episode because I think it will be helpful to us as human, to human sort of things, but also to maybe early clinicians or supervisors who are working with early clinicians. And golly, you know, anytime I talk to a fellow therapist or psychologist, even as a veteran, I think we can all learn something from one another. So, desiree, I'm thankful you're here today. You said yes to coming back, so can you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us one fun thing about you?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, but first congratulations. That's so exciting.
Speaker 1:Thanks, yeah, it's exciting yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing. Well, I'm so glad to be back on. It's so good to be here again and to talk with you again. I really enjoyed our last conversation. So again, I'm Desiree Argentina. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. Well, I guess I have a different title now too licensed independent clinical social worker. So my one fun fact is that I just moved to Washington state a few weeks ago and so had to apply for my Washington license and all that.
Speaker 2:And they have like an LICSW, I guess. So a little different the titles in each state, but still you know just the same clinical social worker. So I am a therapist. I have my own private practice on the side, I work full time in a middle school and high school and I have my own podcast as well on mental health and wellness. So yeah, that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Middle school and high school is just that time of life where you know I think all of us could agree that anyone who works in the school with middle school and high schoolers just you know straight ticket to heaven, you know.
Speaker 2:It is kind of rough Some things are.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's like so much joy, I'm sure, but also, like golly, there's a lot that happens in those schools.
Speaker 2:So much, so much. And I think people really I always talk about this I think people don't realize, like the general population have no idea what is happening with the youth and in schools. And you know, I really do love it, I love working with teens, but there are some days where I go home and I'm like I'm never going back. I'm just not going in tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and usually it's not the kids, I mean, at least for me that was always true. It was like the teenagers were almost never my issue. I loved working with even the most challenging teenagers. It was either the policies or processes or other things that were kind of getting in the way of the work that we were trying to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the parents, the parents are a big big challenge, yeah, and just not collaborative.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, tough we did. You know my past few years I never had, you know, major issues with the kids, even the ones that, like you know, had a lot of behaviors and everything. And then after COVID there was all these physical fights and it was very violent in the school. Right after COVID when all the kids came back, it was very violent, which was tough. But I don't know the past few years it's been a big challenge. The behaviors have been very escalated. I've never seen that level of disrespect and violence and it's been tough the past few years. It's interesting we're just chatting now. We're not even talking about what we were coming on to talk about, but it's's interesting.
Speaker 1:We're, you know we're just chatting now, we're not even talking about what we were coming on to talk about, but this is. It's very interesting, I think, to share with people who aren't in the schools or don't work with teens and interestingly I was. I met with a group of teachers this morning and I made the comment like hey, you know, this is just a different brand of teenagers, middle schoolers, kids and even elementary school than what you know we've seen in the past and you know the level of like. You know people just really our teachers are really feeling the you know, I call it a skill deficiency, right that like between COVID and all of the things that happened post COVID in terms of even the grownups, mental health and ability to like, resolve conflict and a political climate and all the racial tension and just the tension in general. I think you know social media, all of those things. We're just dealing with a different brand than we've seen in a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's so tough just working in the schools. I'm a school social worker. I'm not a teacher. I would never. You couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher. It's the hardest job in the whole world. I don't know how they do it every day. It's really, really difficult, and just all the things that they have on their plate, it's completely unattainable, unrealistic, it's just not possible. So the level of stress and burnout is insane.
Speaker 1:Insane and just so unappreciated. Yes, Just you know, if you and I, and if this platform is the only thing we can do is just to like show how appreciative we are of our teachers, it would be the best thing that could come from this podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And something I always, always say is teachers should not be making a single penny under a hundred thousand a year, like I'm so adamant about that. They get so ridiculously underpaid. It's one of the hardest but most important jobs and they are I mean so many in my jobs parking lot every car, like I was astonished so many cars have the Lyft and Uber stickers on them because teachers just aren't making enough. All teachers have side jobs and are working in the summers and right.
Speaker 2:Something people say is oh well, teachers get the summers off and breaks. I always say, if they didn't, you would not have one single teacher because a lot of teachers I actually work with a lot of teachers because one of my focuses is burnout, so a lot of my clients are teachers. So my private practice I focus a lot on burnout, so I just naturally you know teachers come to me and they are not. They're not like partying and having fun all summer and on the breaks they are on their couches recuperating, resting, because they're so incredibly burned out they can't even do the things that they want to do.
Speaker 1:Or they have to work in the summer because they cannot survive on the paychecks that they get throughout the year.
Speaker 1:A lot of my teachers are working stuff A lot of them are, you know, because they cannot survive on the paychecks that they get throughout the year. A lot of my teachers are working, a lot of them are, you know, and so they're not actually getting that break, and then they're just not getting paid enough. You know, I said this morning that you know whether the teachers in the room that I was talking to I said whether you're a parent of kids that live in your home, you're raising this generation. You know, like you spend more waking time with the kids that live in your home, you're raising this generation. You spend more waking time with the kids that are in your classroom than their parents do, and so your influence is so instrumental and, yeah, I mean we just can't say enough that the monetary payout for that it's not even close to what they're valued.
Speaker 2:Oh, I could talk about it forever I know, I know I'm just thinking like golly.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's so many things and I've just said golly three times in an episode. That's weird. That's not even a word, that I usually say that much. Anyway, desiree, okay. So maybe I should just talk about a coping skill for how I should manage my gollies in one episode.
Speaker 2:Golly, might be the coping skill.
Speaker 1:Golly, might be my coping skill today, okay, so, yeah, so that's actually what we're going to talk about today. Aside from our struggle with what teachers are getting paid and we will always support teachers and always be advocates toward that in whatever way we can and I guess even to think about teachers or really anyone in any profession we talk about this word coping skill in our field a lot, right, and so we were kind of talking, before we started recording, about how this word coping skills becomes kind of this buzzword. You know it's like well, you should just develop your coping skill and well, you know, she really just needs to practice her coping skills, and it sort of is like so what, like, what does that even mean, instead of us just like throwing those words out as a means to like make an excuse for someone's bad behavior, what does coping skill even mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's so funny that you brought that up, because we were talking and you know I had started in 2014. I started working at an outpatient mental health clinic and I felt like it was such a drill in us, it was drilled into us. Teach people coping skills, teach people coping skills and I was young and new. So, you know, I didn't know and I, you know, trying to do that with my clients, and it's so funny because we're all coping all the time. We are doing that. So so there are healthy coping skills versus unhealthy coping skills. So I'll just give you the definition for what a coping skill is in general and then we can dive into the unhealthy and healthy. But again, we're all coping all the time, just 24-7. We all have our own ways of coping.
Speaker 2:So coping skills, also known as coping strategies or coping mechanisms they're methods that we use to deal with stressful situations, difficult emotions, challenging events. Healthy coping mechanisms help us to or just coping mechanisms in general, help us to manage our thoughts, feelings and our behaviors as well, and a lot of our coping is behaviors. But these can be categorized into healthy or adaptive coping skills and unhealthy or maladaptive coping skills. So a healthy coping skill are kind of positive and constructive ways to manage stress, to process our difficult emotions. They help us to promote positive and balanced well-being and can actually lead to long-term resilience and improved mental health. Right? So these are known as quote-unquote positive or healthy coping skills, whereas unhealthy coping skills there's still a way that we manage our stress, we manage our difficult emotions, we manage challenging situations, but they can actually lead to harm, right? So there are ways that harm to our relationships, harm to our mental health, our emotional health, even our physical health. So, unhealthy coping skills the problem with them, right, is that they are effective.
Speaker 2:They do provide relief, but it's usually temporary and it can often lead to more negative or long-term consequences or more significant problems in the long run. But they are effective at coping, so that's why it's very easy to go to unhealthy ones, and sometimes they're easier, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can think of lots of unhealthy coping that are easier and more effective, you know, than like other kind of healthier adaptive coping skills. And so, you know, as we start giving some examples, I'm going to do my best not to be like, well, yeah, I do that too, but yeah, so you know, can you just give us, you know, maybe let's start with one example of either a healthy or an unhealthy coping strategy that a lot of us do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'm going to throw one out there that maybe people would not think of as an unhealthy coping strategy, but it is one, and I've talked about this before and people are like, oh, it's like an aha moment, busyness or overworking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whoops, all right, so give it to us Desiree. Come on, yeah, so keeping yourself busy and stressed in a different way, right.
Speaker 2:So give it to us Desiree, come on. Yeah. So keeping yourself busy, pied and stressed in a different way, right, it is stressful, but it's almost a coping strategy, a way of coping that you don't have time or energy to think about the other really stressful events in your life, let alone process them or deal with them in a healthier way. So busyness in itself is a coping strategy. It's an avoidance strategy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I, of all people, can kind of relate to this one where you know, if I have something going on that I don't want to think about, it's like, well, let me just write down all the things I have to do today and let me just like check off all these things on my list. And I'm just going to focus on my list and the things I have to do when I'm just really avoiding any kind of uncomfortable feelings that I might have about what's really going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And that that feeling of so again, I work with people that struggle with burnout, I work with people pleasers, I work with those like type a personalities that crossing off something on the list is such a dopamine hit right. It feels so good, it feels you feel accomplished, you feel like you succeeded, you feel like you really, you know, did something with your day, so it feels really good. And that kind of feeds into that like okay, let me just keep busy, let me cross all these things off my list, and then I'm going to feel really good and that kind of feeds into that like, okay, let me just keep busy, let me cross all these things off my list, and then I'm going to feel really good. But right at the end of the night, you didn't do enough. And it feeds into that like, oh, I feel kind of crappy and oh wait, I'm starting to think of this other thing there's I need more to do. I have to do more, more, more, more, more, more, always more. It's never enough.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that might be helpful for us to do in this episode is to try to help people find the line between healthy versus unhealthy right. So I think there might be lots of people who are listening or talking, I don't know, who might find list making to be very helpful, right, and getting things done makes us feel good, and so how do we know like, oh boy, this is like an effective way for me to stay focused and manage my time right versus oh, this is me avoiding and using busyness to keep me from you know, kind of facing the things I got to face right. I certainly want to clarify that you're not saying people should stop making lists.
Speaker 2:Oh no, absolutely I'm a big list person. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah it really does help me manage the things I need to do organize my day. A lot of people like to use those kind of time management organization boards like Asana or Trello or something like that. So no, they are very helpful right, but it's really paying attention to the feeling and the motivation. What is it doing for you?
Speaker 2:Is it helping you to organize your day and your time? Or are you, when you're not doing something, when you're not being productive, do you feel crappy and other thoughts and other situations start creeping in that you're trying to avoid. So, really, what is the motivation? And when you get a lot done on your list, when you do what you need to do, do you feel good or do you feel like I didn't do enough, I need to do more? And just, really, sitting in that feeling, do you feel empty at the end of the day, do you feel like you're not worthwhile or feel crappy about yourself because you didn't do enough? Or do you feel like, oh, that really helped me to manage my day? I did the three major things I needed to do for work today, but is it never enough? Are you never doing enough? Because when you sit there not doing anything, you either feel crappy about yourself or you start thinking about X, y, z situation that you're trying to avoid.
Speaker 1:Okay. So let's say okay, I'm a person who doesn't make lists because I know I want to be busy, I know I want to avoid things. Doesn't make lists because I know I want to be busy, I know I want to avoid things. So what's the healthy coping? Then let's say I'm a person who does that because I don't want to face my loneliness, or I'm single and I want to be in a relationship and I've got a history of failed relationships or something. How do we cope in a healthy way, aside from the busyness?
Speaker 2:So I could go over some different kind of like categories of coping skills. So it's different for everybody, right? So it's very individual. So I always tell people and my clients, the people I work with, you have to find what works for you. And the caveat to that is also, what works for you sometimes is not going to work all the time right. So something that's really effective for you one day might not be effective for you another day, maybe depending on the situation, depending on the level of stress. So to kind of have a coping strategy box, right, a coping toolbox in your back pocket tucked away, just a go-to for you to keep in mind what works for you and what doesn't work for you and maybe works for you sometimes depending on the level of stress. So there's a lot of different categories.
Speaker 2:So physical coping strategies Some people really manage their stress and process difficult things very well physically getting outdoors, running, walking, exercising whether that's stretching or working out or whatever the case may be yoga, boxing, weightlifting, muscle relaxation techniques, fidgeting I love fidgets. I always have fidgets on me, so that's something I love Eating a healthy snack, which again a coping, an unhealthy coping strategy that I talk about a lot, that I struggle with personally is like eating issues, right. So that's either overeating, under eating, using food as a way to cope, which eating a healthy snack can be a good distraction, a good way to replenish your body. But when you do like I do, when I'm really stressed and I like shove a cupcake in my mouth to get that kind of dopamine hit, not as healthy, right, but we know, we know this. But so, again, differentiating that. So, mindfulness techniques whether you really like to sit in silence, again, getting outside meditation, there's some really great apps like the Calm app, the Headspace app, the Tapping Solutions app, which I love. Some people really like prayer, deep breathing, listening to music. Some people really like to make a calming playlist when they're upset that they can listen to, or listening to podcasts that are uplifting. Nature sounds, being in nature. I love being outside. That's when I find that, you know, is really calming for me, again, walking outside. So those are more of like the mindfulness kind of coping strategies Creative Some people love processing their emotions creatively.
Speaker 2:So engaging in your hobbies or passions or activities that bring you joy, like writing, painting, photography, playing in nature, making mandalas out of leaves and rocks, and things like that arts and crafts, writing, music, reading, right. So there's all these creative coping strategies. Social I'm somebody that loves to vent, so venting to friends or family, spending time with friends or family, spending time with your fur babies which, you know, cats always bring me joy. I have cats and so I love pets.
Speaker 2:So spending time with your pets, journaling, writing down your thoughts and feelings, processing them, and not only journaling, maybe not even writing, but I tell people too, like you can just journal out loud, right, you could just talk out loud if you don't have somebody that you can call or talk to. Talking out loud if you find that venting is helpful, that's totally okay. It's a great way to process your emotions and your feelings. And relaxation techniques so a little different than the mindfulness, but maybe reading or yoga or muscle relaxation, stretching, going for walks or even taking a short nap for 20 or 30 minutes using essential oils, right. So there's all these different categories of coping strategies, and it's going to be such an experiment to find again what works for you, what doesn't work for you, what works for you strategies and it's going to be such an experiment to find again what works for you, what doesn't work for you, what works for you sometimes and just keeping these in the back of your mind and trying different things and experimenting.
Speaker 1:I love all of these examples and I think all of us can think of.
Speaker 1:You know several things within each category that we might enjoy doing, and one of the things I was thinking about in my own life and it's going to be a question that maybe we talk about or that I ask you a little bit, maybe after this question but for me it's also about, like adjusting the narrative in my mind, and so while I'm taking a walk outside, if I'm allowing my thoughts to be like I can't believe that she did that. She is just something that I just can't tolerate. I mean, what I find in my own life is, if I allow the internal narrative to sort of continue my level of stress or anger or frustration or resentment or whatever it is. I could do these coping things all day long, but then I come back and I'm like even more fired up. It's like now I'm just sweaty and angry after my walk in the woods, anyway. So how do you, what do you think about that idea around, like that cognitive portion to these coping skills also?
Speaker 2:Right, no, that's a great point Because it's such a fine line. Right, because we do want to process those difficult emotions and we do want to process, like, those thoughts that we're having about whatever, whoever work, family, loved ones that are frustrating. But, right, there's such a difference between, like, ruminating on them and processing them, because if we don't think about them, if we don't process them in a healthy way, if we don't get them out and we push them down and we avoid them, they're going to come out in other ways. Right, they're going to. They don't just go away, you stuff them down and they're gonna come out. Whether that looks like and it could look like so many different things.
Speaker 2:But, right, irritability, not sleeping well, um, using unhealthy coping skills, like, um, like, even like drinking, or using, you know, substances, or again shoving the cupcakes, um, just those avoidance kind of things, like escapism, I think is really big right now. Right, just like scrolling nonstop on our phones is such a big thing, it's such a big distraction, but also gives us that dopamine that we're looking for. So that just scrolling, scrolling, binge watching shows, so it just comes out in a lot of different ways and it could come out as also damaging those relationships, right. If you're not processing that difficulty with a loved one, it could come out as like ignoring them or not answering their calls or kind of cutting them off right, which is very damaging to the relationship which could have been dealt with or processed in a better way. So there is a fine line between ruminating on the issue and processing it to the point where it actually is doing some damage and shoving it down and avoiding it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that you kind of mentioned that like escapism in particular, and I think about one of the one of the coping skills that I had thought about at the very beginning when you were talking is giving your partner the silent treatment. I talk about the silent treatment when I talk in groups of folks and how we sort of see it as an effective coping strategy where I don't have to face the conflict. But it's really an unhealthy coping strategy.
Speaker 2:Right, it's effective right.
Speaker 1:It's effective, yeah.
Speaker 2:We're not dealing with it, we don't have to manage it right now. And the thing about the thing about that is it's the unhealthy coping skills right. They can sometimes be much easier confronting somebody, talking with them, processing, having a conversation. That's really really difficult and it's very vulnerable and it's much easier to just turn your phone off or block their number, avoid the call scroll on your phone. That's just the easier option.
Speaker 1:It's so much easier and it's more comfortable. Right, I don't have to work, I don't have to try something new, I don't have to put myself in this situation that is vulnerable and uncomfortable and in some ways it's risky. You know, I think he talked about kind of how these unhealthy, some of the unhealthy, maladaptive coping skills are harmful to our relationships. And it's interesting because we think, you know, avoiding conflict is going to protect our relationship, because we're just like afraid it's too risky to approach that conflict, but really like no relationship is without conflict.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, there's this kind of misconception that people think that, oh, if I'm in a healthy relationship, whether that's romantic or platonic, it doesn't matter, there's not going to be conflict. But that's just, it's just false. Every relationship is going to have conflict. It's really about how you deal with that conflict, how you're expressing that conflict, how you're fighting. Right, there's a healthy way to fight. And just going back to what you said about that comfort right, it's more comfortable to not deal with whatever the issue is. But something I always tell people that I think is so important to keep in mind is that there's such a strong discomfort in that comfortable space. You're not at peace, right. You don't feel good, disavoidance.
Speaker 1:There's a discomfort in that comfortable space okay, there is a strong discomfort in that comfortable space so we're avoiding, we're not dealing with the situation, but it's there.
Speaker 2:It's like a black cloud in your happy little. You know avoiding space right so you may feel comfortable not dealing with the situation, but it doesn't feel good, it's not bringing us peace. Nothing is resolved. It's not comfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's tough to swallow. I don't know that I like all that. That's not so much. Okay. So your definition earlier I couldn't write it all down, but I wrote the definition down that coping skills are methods or kind of strategies that we use to manage stressful events. Essentially I think you had more, a little more, but the idea is that we experience stress and then we want to do something about it, and the coping skill, either healthy or unhealthy, is what we do about it, and so it it made me think.
Speaker 1:You know, I teach a course on the psychology of happiness at the university which is really interesting and fun to do, and one part of that is appraisal theory. How we appraise events has an impact on our level of happiness, and so our perception of an event, or the way, the lens through which we see different events, impacts us a lot. And so I think about this definition to where you have to first see something as stressful or bad or harmful or hurtful or uncomfortable or whatever before you have to recognize like as stressful or bad or harmful or hurtful or uncomfortable or whatever, before you have to recognize like, oh, I need to do something about this. So I'm just thinking about that, like what happens if we just don't see things as stressful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's that's such an interesting point, right, because something that I work, work with with my clients is that sometimes people will present and this could be even your friend's family right like one situation I think is common, whereas like a friend is telling another friend like oh, my partner did this so, so and so, and the friend's like wait, that's actually like really messed up yeah, yeah, yeah and the friend and the friend's like what do you mean?
Speaker 2:no, it's like, ha, ha, it was funny. Like no, that's actually like really messed up, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the friend and the friend's like what do you mean? No, it's like, haha, it was funny. Like no, that was actually like really bad, like that's not so I, but I think that's a way of coping right. Yeah that's a way of our coping, to maybe minimize minimizing situation.
Speaker 1:Yep yeah. So thinking about, you know, how do we allow those stressful things, or just things that happen to us, and how do we determine whether it's stressful or hurtful or bad or whatever first, and then what do we do about it?
Speaker 2:That is really great. So I'm trained in acceptance and commitment therapy, and so something that we talk about a lot in ACT is values. What are your values? And this is something because a lot of the people I work with it is about relationships, healthy relationships, unhealthy relationships, whether that's romantic or platonic, toxic, whatever the case may be. So something we talk about a lot is what does a healthy relationship look like to you? How do you want to be treated? And again, that could be about work too, when I work with a lot of people about their stressful, toxic jobs.
Speaker 2:What is a healthy work environment that you would like to work in? How do you want to be treated in a relationship? How do you want to be treated in a relationship? How do you want to be treated at work? How do you want to treat your partner or your colleagues?
Speaker 2:So it comes back to kind of those values what is important to you? What do you value in a relationship? And thinking about that. I think that's kind of maybe the first step to, even before this kind of right awareness is, really thinking about for yourself what are the things I value in how I treat other people, how I'm living my life, the way, the things I have in my life, what brings me kind of that fulfillment, that flourishing, that just feeling good about the life that you're living. And then what do I value in an occupation, in my profession, in my career? What do I value in relationships, whether that's with my parents, my siblings, my partner, my friends? So, really taking this back to what is important to you, how do you want to be treated, how do you want to treat other people? And then there may be a misalignment there.
Speaker 1:Well, I think about that question and gosh how valuable that question is.
Speaker 1:I mean all of the questions, right, like what do I value, what's important to me, and what does a healthy relationship look like to you? I'm trained and do training in restorative practices and one of the questions is you know, what does a relation, what's a healthy relationship look like, feel like and sound like? And when I ask workshop participants to share sort of, what does a healthy relationship look like, what does it sound like and what does it feel like, it's really interesting because all of our experiences, all of our past experiences with relationships, shape what we believe is healthy or unhealthy. And sometimes it's real screwed up, right, like, sometimes our models of relationships have been really bad, you know, have been really bad, you know. And so I began thinking about that in terms of even watching other people cope right. And so, if I bring this back to you know, I know you and I both work with young people but then also, like, how does what our kids watch in us in terms of our coping, how does it impact them?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh my gosh. There's so much here because just working in the middle school and high school, the relationships just terrify me. They're so unhealthy, they're so toxic, they're abusive, very, very, very tough, and I think not only how they watch us and how we're a reflection, but also the media. It was so funny because years ago I have younger sisters they're a little older now, but one is in college and one is in her senior year of high school and years ago there was a movie that they both really loved and I watched it with them and I was horrified at the relationship. It was so toxic and I was like trying to teach them that like this is not healthy. This is the way he said that. He yelled at her and slammed his hand and like I'm like this is like not a good relationship and they were like, oh, you're so annoying, you're so cute to get blah blah and you know they they didn't see it and I'm like even they were arguing with me and I'm like, no, this is this is not healthy. This is very toxic relationship and I like a lot of teen movies and romance movies and things like that romantic comedies and it is so interesting because a lot of what I watch. I guess in that social worker lens I'm like oof, this is difficult, I want to do a lesson on this movie.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's just everywhere and I think that's the hard thing is that we're not really taught how to have healthy relationships and we can very easily find ourselves in unhealthy relationships and not know. But I think it goes back again to that kind of really turning inward and being kind of intuitive and that self-awareness of how is this making me feel right? Because we may not know what is healthy and what is unhealthy and we may even have, you know, different ideas about that right, and even some people that do know and are in the profession could disagree completely. But I think it goes back to what feels good to you, what does not feel good to you and what do I value and how do I want my relationships to look right. Because even if we disagree, what feels good to me in a relationship is going to feel completely different to you. And again that comes back to that piece of being vulnerable and that communication and processing that with your partner and having difficult conversations.
Speaker 1:Wow and taking time to reflect on what's happening inside my body.
Speaker 1:If we're spending all of our time throughout the day scrolling or watching a screen or just engaging in all of these distractions, then it doesn't even give us time or space to be like how am I feeling? And most of us are saying things like well, I don't feel good, I feel bad, and those are not great feeling words, and so getting a list of feelings and trying to really pinpoint, like what is the emotion that I'm experiencing but it takes a lot of effort to do that, you know to like pause and differentiate. You know, I think my, my eight year old we just dropped him off at camp this summer and he was sort of like well, my, my belly hurts, you know, and he was like my belly just hurts, and he was like I don't know if I'm hungry or if I have to go to the bathroom, and I said it might also just be that you're nervous. You know it's like pausing to differentiate what is actually happening inside my body really does take a lot of effort and practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm so glad you brought that up Because, right, our minds can lie to us, but our bodies are not going to. Yeah, you you're. If you're having headaches all the time, if you're not sleeping, if you're having nightmares, if you're short of breath, if you have a neck ache all the time, your shoulders are hurting, your body is not going to lie to you.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, we've talked about a couple of different healthy versus unhealthy coping strategies or skills. What are other common ones that you hear from folks in terms of healthy or unhealthy?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a common unhealthy one, I would say too is unfortunately, self-harm is one right, and self-harm could look different for people. Right, we typically think of cutting, but not only that. People burn, some people pinch themselves, some people rip out their hair. Even something that's common with, especially like younger boys, is punching walls and things like that, like that's considered to be a way of self-harm, but kind of more of a, I would say, like maybe common one. Besides the overworking, the busyness, the avoidance and escapism, I would say probably one of the biggest ones is kind of the eating, the snacking, the kind of eating the chips, eating unhealthily. I think using food as a way to cope is just very common. I think a lot of us do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and food is just such a social part of our culture that it's like, yeah, if I want to find joy with my friends, we're going to do it over some queso.
Speaker 2:No, exactly, and that's another one of those coping strategies that is kind of a fine line like the busyness and the kind of the lists right, Because I am somebody that just genuinely loves like cake and cookies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like.
Speaker 2:I do. But again going back to that, what is the motivation? Am I doing this because, like, I'm having fun with my friends and I baked like a nice cake for everybody? Or am I like gorging and like stuffing like cupcakes down my throat when, like, I'm really stressed? So again going back to that motivation and the function of the behavior, what is the function of the behavior? Is it to have fun and like chill with my friends and have a good time and bond over delicious food? Or is it like I'm desperately trying to not feel something and to feel something else?
Speaker 1:desperately trying to not feel something and to feel something else. I have to believe that that's also like it's kind of a similar line that we want to draw for substance use. Yes, yes, definitely so. Drinking, using any other sort of substance to kind of hang out socially, whatever that looks like, and what is our motivation, what is the function of doing that, what is our feeling around that? How do you kind of help people recognize okay, now your substance use is really a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's so interesting because I think, how you kind of said, just culturally too and just societally, right, there's happy hours, so a lot of coworkers will, but there's such a oh, it's been such a hard day like let's go to happy hour, right. So there's that, let's relax.
Speaker 2:Yeah wind down, but also, is it a way of coping Because you've just had such a stressful day, or is it a way to kind of like, have a drink with your friends or something you know? Again, that kind of motivation and just that kind of idea. I don't know if you've heard that term I think it's called like wine moms or something. It's called something like that where it's very common for like moms to drink to be able to cope. So I think wine drinking is something that we as a society have decided to accept as a coping strategy. We don't really see it as a problem until it's a problem, right, and even then it's like, oh, it's just a drink, like. There's this idea.
Speaker 2:So I don't drink at all. I'm totally like alcohol free because, well, I went through, like you know, of course, my college like partying phase, but then going through grad school, you know, I just wasn't partying or drinking as much and then I would drink every once in a while again, socially, with friends or whatever. But then I went through like a chronic illness. So I have a chronic illness, that alcohol is a trigger. I get very sick if I drink. So I don't drink anymore at all because of that. But there's this people don't. Really it makes people uncomfortable when people say that they don't drink. So I do have a friend who is sober because she did struggle with alcohol and it's, if you go to a party, if you go out with friends, saying you don't drink or don't want to drink is not really accepted.
Speaker 2:And it's very strange. So my friend actually that was sober, she would always hold a drink in her hand, but it would always be Sprite and she would always just say that it was just easier for her to just say that she was drinking, because she would get almost harassed that she wasn't drinking. She would get almost like harassed that she wasn't drinking. But I think this goes to with friends. If you're in, if you're comfortable with your friends, your family, to kind of build those boundaries and you're teaching people how to treat you, you're teaching people how you want to be treated, so having a conversation or just repeatedly and we don't. Something that's important with boundaries is that you don't only teach people your boundaries with your words but with your actions with your behaviors and upholding them.
Speaker 2:So upholding the boundaries with your behavior. So repeatedly saying and it doesn't have to be drinking, it could be whatever Like, no, I don't, I don't do that, no, thank you, no, I'm good and just, but repeatedly right, because people will learn eventually oh, this person doesn't do XYZ. But again, going back to that kind of motivation, am I just enjoying one drink because I love the taste of my favorite wine, or am I really, really stressed out and I need to cope in some way?
Speaker 1:Well, I love this example actually, because I think it's one that you know, a lot of people can relate to and I think it is an important distinction to say, yeah, your friend who is holding the Sprite is, you know, in some ways avoiding the conflict of you know, having to tell somebody that, that you know they're not drinking or whatever. But in that sense it is a safer coping strategy that they probably learned in this relationship, right? And so I think sometimes avoidance of conflict is a safety thing, right, it's like it's a safer interpersonal sort of situation for me just to sort of pretend here and it doesn't cause me any issue with who I am or what I value, because I don't need to kind of validate my stance with this friend group, or maybe that's part of the boundary is saying like I'm not going to, you know, kind of engage in this conversation with this person again, because they are not actually going to get the part that I'm trying to get them to get.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've talked about a lot of things. Any last minute thing that we forgot to talk about that you really want to say today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say you can develop healthy coping skills for yourself. If you realize through our conversation like, oh, I maybe do this and, you know, want to shift away from that, there are ways that you can actually develop your healthy coping skills. So I think it starts with that self-awareness recognizing and understanding your stressors, your emotional triggers and how you're coping with them. Right, maybe, journal, do some self-reflecting it's a great way to become self-aware. How am I coping with my triggers and what are my triggers right? So that's just kind of the place to start. I would say a good place to start.
Speaker 2:And again going back to that idea of experimenting with different coping strategies, with healthy coping strategies right, we gave you a long kind of list. You can even search on Google or whatever. You'll find just tons of lists of healthy coping strategies and experiment with what works best for you and have kind of a go-to, ready and prepared and it's a practice right, like anything else, you can strengthen your ability to use healthy coping strategies and maybe in the future it will be easier for you to shift to a healthy coping strategy. Maybe that will end up being your go-to. It takes a lot of practice. So also giving yourself that time, practicing that self-compassion, giving yourself that grace and realizing that it's a journey and it will take time, but also getting support, not only from loved ones but from professionals, right, seeing a therapist, seeing a counselor, seeing a coach can help you really to identify those triggers and to identify because sometimes again, people aren't aware of how they're coping, because we are just coping all the time and sometimes we don't realize that.
Speaker 1:It's so good and I love that your focus on you know trial and error what works today may not work tomorrow. What worked in this situation may not work next time. You got to just keep you know kind of loving yourself through the trial and error process. So good, okay, desiree, tell people how they can find out about your podcast, your Facebook group, the work you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, so you can find me. My podcast is the Wellness Project with Des, so I have an episode every week on there. I interview experts in the field of mental health and wellness, but also people that come on and share their firsthand stories about their mental health journeys, which I think is so, so valuable. I do run a Facebook group. It's absolutely free and I'm in there every day with mental health and wellness content, so that's a great place to find me again. The wellness project with Des and you can find all my blogs and podcasts and everything on my website. According to descom, Amazing.
Speaker 1:I am so grateful for you, the work you're doing. I hope that folks found a lot of value. I know that I did. I took a whole page of notes, so I'm so grateful for you for coming on to share again and, listener, I'm thankful for you that you're here. You stuck it out till the end of today, I think you know. I think about some podcasts that I might listen to the first little bit and I get toward the end and I'm just sort of like I get distracted or I don't want to come back to it. So I'm just sort of like I get distracted or I don't want to come back to it. So I'm grateful that you stuck around till the end and until next time, stay safe and stay well.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, ciao.
