Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 127: The Art of Clarity: How Discernment Counseling Helps Couples in Limbo with Lianna Purjes
What happens when one person in a relationship is ready to throw in the towel while their partner wants to keep trying? This emotional standoff creates a relationship limbo that can last for months or even years, preventing healing and growth for both individuals.
Therapist Lianna Purjes joins us to explore the powerful tool of discernment counseling - a specialized, short-term intervention created specifically for couples with mixed agendas about their future together. Unlike traditional couples therapy that assumes both partners want to improve the relationship, discernment counseling helps couples gain clarity and confidence about which direction to take: working on the relationship, moving toward separation, or maintaining the status quo temporarily.
The process is remarkably focused - just 1-5 sessions that primarily involve individual conversations with the therapist. This allows each partner to explore their contributions to relationship problems without the defensiveness that often emerges in joint sessions. Through this work, each person develops a "personal agenda for change" that benefits them regardless of the relationship's outcome.
While this process can feel frightening - especially for the partner who wants to preserve the relationship - it ultimately offers a faster path to healing than indefinite relationship limbo. Having clarity, even painful clarity, allows for movement rather than stagnation in recurring negative cycles.
Whether you're a therapist looking to expand your toolkit or someone navigating a difficult relationship crossroads, this episode offers insights into finding your way forward when the path seems unclear.
Learn more about Lianna at fuzzysockstherapy.com
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel. I'm a psychologist and professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm the director of the Master's Mental Health Counseling Program, and I am so excited that I am back in the studio recording, getting to invite back some of my favorite guests to have some of the best conversations that I kind of get to have in my professional life. Before I push record, I was sharing with Liana about how I just feel so lucky to get to have conversations with such smart people and to be able to share with the world, and so I'm just so grateful that you said yes to being here again, liana, and, if you don't mind, introduce yourself again, just in case people haven't heard the other episodes that you've done though if you have not, I would encourage you to go back, because I think the beauty of our episodes together in the past is that it really speaks to kind of the vastness of who you are.
Speaker 1:You know, I think I have some guests that come on and they kind of talk about their niche area of expertise, and I think that's great and wonderful, great and wonderful. And I think it's also great and wonderful to see both the human side of therapists and also the professional side of them, and so I'm just grateful that you have come on and shared kind of both sides of you, and I just know today is going to be great too. So tell folks a little about you and something, just one fun thing. Or if you want to share more than one, you can have bonus fun things today awesome.
Speaker 2:Thanks for that permission, um, and thanks for having me again. I love, love coming on your show. So my name is leanna purvis. I'm a licensed therapist and coach, um, and I specialize primarily in neurodivergence and trauma, and I actually just recently moved to the Phoenix Scottsdale area, so I provide virtual services to people in Colorado and Florida, but I also am now doing in-person services in Scottsdale for therapy, which is really cool, and then for coaching. I can see people anywhere, which is great. One fun thing about me Well, so I recently I've been getting into aerial yoga, which is like yoga in the like the hammocks or the silks, they call it um, which is really fun. And yesterday I went to a class and the teacher said to me you know the way you came out of that pose. That was really graceful and I laughed and I said I don't think anyone has ever said that to me in my life, ever about anything, but that was really cool and it's just fun and I really enjoy it. So that's one fun thing about me.
Speaker 1:That is amazing. No one's ever accused me of being graceful either, and so I definitely relate to that, and I think it's what has frightened me a little bit about anything with rope or things hanging from the ceiling. I have this very real fear that I am going to just like rip it out the ceiling and fall flat on my face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a natural fear. I mean they were telling us I think they can. These hammocks can hold like 2000 pounds or something Probably below that weight limit.
Speaker 1:So it's probably just in my mind that's what I hear you saying below that weight limit. So it's probably just in my mind that's what I hear you saying. I agree it sounds like such a fun challenge, I mean, I think, as an adventure. I totally resonate with this idea of like doing something new and fun as an adventure. And I might have to find they had this in our town. There there was like this bungees basically and it was like this whole like bungee workout where you strapped into these bungees and they just it wasn't around for very long. I don't know if people didn't kind of jam with it the way that maybe we could, but that always sounded like a fun thing to try. I don't know if I would go back. Do you like? How often can you do aerial yoga? You?
Speaker 2:can do it, however often you would do any other yoga. Um it yeah, I mean the. It can be a little scary because you're hanging upside down sometimes, but you're you're pretty close to the ground.
Speaker 1:You're not like super high up, so it's not too bad, it's not gonna be like a traumatic brain injury to land on your head. You're only just inches from the ground.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just inches.
Speaker 1:Now I will be picturing in my mind myself, upside down. But you know what? You did get the compliment of being graceful, and so, if that, is on my bucket list. I might have to look this and try it a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm not going to lie, I was like. I was like really skeptical at first I thought she was lying to me, but then it felt good like, is she joking?
Speaker 1:I've never really met a yoga teacher that was like that used sarcasm right. Most of them are just like really genuinely like connected, they speak truth kind of people. Yeah yeah, maybe there are sarcastic you, I'm sure there are. One thing I was. I was thinking about that. I don't think I know about you, so I know I've known your sort of connection to neurodivergence and trauma. Do you work mostly with kids and families? Are you working with adults? Is it kind of a blend?
Speaker 2:It's a blend. Yeah, I like working with a blend, so I do work a lot with kids and families, so work with individual adults and couples.
Speaker 1:Is that an expansion? Like were you working mostly with kids kind of early in your career and then now have kind of expanded to be the range?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I definitely. I mean my. My first career was as a teacher and I, yeah, I was working with little ones and families, and then, when I became a therapist, I did start out mostly working with kids and then eventually expanded into working with adults to sidebar question.
Speaker 1:I just was curious about that and for anybody who might want to look you up afterwards, it would be important to know that about you. But okay, so one of the topics that you brought up was discernment counseling, which I was like that is great, that sounds like a topic that we have not covered on the podcast before and it would be something to share with the world. And so my first question, because when I hear the word discernment, I kind of automatically go to sort of discernment from like a religious sort of sense, right, and so can you sort of clarify and maybe define what we're calling, what the field is calling, discernment counseling?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So discernment, in this case I think you can think of it as standing in for deciding or decisions. So the founder of it, bill Doherty. He's based in Minneapolis and when he was first developing this therapy because the point is it's a short term intervention for couples to help them decide if they're going to stay together or split up and when he was first developing it he worked a lot with some family law attorneys who you know sometimes they get people coming in going I'm 100% sure we want a divorce but they also often had couples coming in where one or both partners were somewhat on the fence and so, and working with them, it kind of came up. They came up with this term of discernment counseling, because the whole point is to help both partners get a lot of clarity about making a decision about the marriage.
Speaker 1:So this is obviously such a need, what this sort of is. What does it look like? What I would imagine is it kind of like a manualized treatment where it's kind of like, hey, these are the things you're covering in each session. Is it more like you're talking about these topics? How does it kind of go?
Speaker 2:yeah, so it's not manualized. I would say it's um structured, um so, and it's structured in a way to really narrow the focus of the work to helping couples make a decision. And it's not about let's try to work on improving your communication or let's work on healing from this past rupture or anything like that. It's really just about identifying what has gone wrong in the marriage that got you to the point where one or both of you is thinking about divorce, and it's about helping them gain clarity on their own contributions to the problems in the marriage. Because even when there's something major like infidelity or addiction or something like that, it's still a two-way street. It takes two to tango right. It's a relationship and so it's really important in this process for both partners to really understand and be able to communicate to their partner their own role in what has happened.
Speaker 2:The structure of the sessions is that it's supposed to be at most five sessions and they're usually between an hour and a half to two hours, and the bulk of that time is actually spent in individual conversations with the therapist. So really most of that time is spent with each partner, helping them understand you know their own contributions, you know their needs for sure, and creating what we call a personal agenda for change. So, whether that's with your partner, who you're with, and you decide we're going to work on this together, or you decide you're going to split up, and then this is something you'd work on for future relationships, there is an agenda for change, meaning. Here are the things I know I need to work on in order to have a happy and healthy relationship.
Speaker 1:Since it's mostly kind of one one, I'm going to ask a very specific, targeted question Does insurance reimburse for this? Because it's, you know, so focused on kind of this couples work, and I know many insurance companies don't always reimburse for couples therapy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. You know I don't take insurance myself. My understanding is that some therapists have been able to bill insurance for this as as couples therapy essentially, but I think it probably depends a lot on the plan and the insurance company and all that Okay like it's such a unique modality and couples work.
Speaker 1:Is this a situation or have you encountered? This modality of treatment is like it's like an add on to sort of other couples treatment, or it's sort of, hey, we're kind of going to take a little pause or shift in the couples work that we're generally doing to try to really hone this in now, and if at the end of this you decide we're staying together, then we will continue in kind of another modality of couples therapy. Is that how it has kind of worked for you or how it's supposed to work? Or is it you're sending them to another person who does this specific work and then they come back to do quote unquote traditional couples work with another therapist?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So the answer is it could be any of those scenarios. So ideally, the way it would work is you know, ideally the way this works is that it's great for couples where one spouse is leaning in, like they're like I want to work on this, I want to do therapy, all that stuff, and the other spouse is leaning out but isn't 100% sure yet that they want to end the relationship. So that's kind of what it's designed for, that dynamic. And so ideally couples would be doing this work before they start couples therapy. Because I think a lot of couples therapists have experienced this.
Speaker 2:When you have couples coming in where there's some mixed agenda or ambivalence about the relationship, it can be really, really hard to do the work right. Like couples, working on your relationship is hard. It takes a lot of reflection and hard work and hard conversations, and so if you're not really at a point where you're really motivated to work on the relationship, it's going to be even harder. You're really motivated to work on the relationship, it's going to be even harder. So ideally couples would do this before they do couples therapy. That being said, I mean there's all sorts of permutations that can happen.
Speaker 2:So I have seen where I have had couples come to me being referred by another therapist where they started couples therapy and then the therapist was sensing that ambivalence and said you know what? I think you should take a pause and do this first. It can happen, you know, when couples do discernment counseling, if they both choose to choose path three, which is a six month commitment to the relationship and couples therapy, they can do that with the discernment counselor or they could do that with someone else if they prefer. They can do that with the discernment counselor or they could do that with someone else if they prefer. So it can look a lot of different ways. You know, ideally we'd want couples doing this before doing therapy to make sure they're both really committed to the process, but obviously it doesn't always work out that way.
Speaker 1:I was curious about that, you know, like when does one, you know, decide this is the right time for discernment counseling? But it does make sense that the ambivalence in the relationship is sort of the catalyst to okay, look, if you're feeling ambivalent, it's going to make the couple's work really challenging. It's hard to be a therapist trying to help a couple where ambivalence is at the center, because you're constantly like, well, are we working toward, are we working away? And so it would make sense that we want to kind of have that answer and perhaps go through it in a structured way to get that answer. And then, okay, now we're, we're going to kind of settle. And so is that kind of like is what you just said sort of like we're at the end of this end of discernment counseling, after these five sessions? Both of our goals is that we're going to commit to the relationship for six months if we've decided. Is that kind of the last step? Is that what I kind of heard you say?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, obviously you know we're talking about couples who are either married or, if they're not legally married, they have made a lifelong commitment to one another. So we're talking about very long termterm committed relationships. So of course, as therapists, we, you know, unless there's a safety concern, we want to see people stay together if they can and work it out if they can. You know, no one wants to see people split up and go through divorce. It's not fun. So you know, yes, we are trying to help both partners figure out if they feel like they off and meet someone else in the future.
Speaker 2:If you don't work on the issues, it's going to show up in your future relationship too. For example, if you're very passive, aggressive, in your communication, if you don't work on that, that's going to show up everywhere, not just with this one person, this one person. So, yes, we really try to help couples get, you know, really really clear and have an understanding of what's going on. And so ultimately, through this process, they, the couples, only commit to one session at a time, so it can go up to five sessions, but it doesn't always, and so at the end of each session they decide if they want to do another one or not, and they can choose one of three paths.
Speaker 2:Path one is status quo, and that's usually for couples where, for whatever reason, they just feel like they need some more time. Path two is working towards separation or divorce. And then path three is committing to at least six months of couples therapy. So, yes, we want to try to steer people towards path three, not because we want to decide for them, but more we want them to be really, really clear If they are going to get a divorce. We don't want them to look back and think, oh, I really should have given it one more shot. So we really want them to have that clarity and that confidence. But yeah, I mean it can go any one of those ways.
Speaker 1:Okay. So if I show up and I say, okay, we're choosing path one, right, we're just going to keep status quo, what would be situations that you might even kind of encourage that as a path that people might want to stay on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it happens sometimes, not quite as often as the other two paths.
Speaker 2:I believe the last time I heard about the research on it, I think it was about 19% of the time couples choose that, so not super common, but yeah, I think that usually happens when couples really are just, you know, you do five sessions and they're still very on the fence fence or the leaning out partner is on the fence still. It could be because of life circumstances, like if you know, suddenly there's a family emergency and they're not able to really think clearly about it because they're so distracted by this other thing going on. You know there could be different circumstances think clearly about it because they're so distracted by this other thing going on. You know there could be different circumstances and we always tell clients to it's status quo in terms of the status of the relationship, but it's not status quo in terms of your understanding, because you're still learning a lot through this process and you're gaining a lot in terms of your understanding of what has happened in the relationship. It might just be that you're putting a pause on making a decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's so interesting that that is like it's a dedicated path, right. I mean, I think about couples work and I think about people that I've known who have gone through couples work, who have been in sort of a conflictual relationship, and I think the people that I have encountered would see that not as a path. Right, it's like well, we're either getting a divorce or we're staying together. Right, it's like well, we're either getting a divorce or we're staying together, and it's like there is this option to live somewhere in the middle. And it doesn't happen as often because people tend to want to make a change, but there may be situations where it is most appropriate to just sort of keep the status quo. And if they're picking status quo, are we then just sort of helping them be able to live amicably? Is it?
Speaker 1:We're kind of pausing, trying to talk about making a decision until you know a clearly stated sort of day or moment, like, is that status quo an area where you know there are still sort of? I mean, I think that's kind of what you were saying, that it's not just, hey, nothing happens in the relationship, but nothing happens in terms of a decision. Is that what you're thinking?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly so. It it? It depends on the circumstances. You know, for some couples I think, yeah, if there are outside factors, like a family emergency for instance, that forces you to go on pause, I mean, then it's pretty obvious of saying, okay, after this has resolved, after things have calmed down, if you want to revisit the process, we can. But I think for a lot of couples it's more just. You know, we help them in terms of reflecting on what they've learned through the process and also, you know, discussing logistics. So for some couples that could be thinking about, you know, for some couples it's a trial separation. They don't want to move towards calling lawyers and filing papers, but they just want to try it for a little bit. Or for some couples it's okay. We need to figure out how we, at least in the meantime, we reduce conflict, because we don't want that around the kids. So how do we maybe alter our schedules so we're not constantly around each other getting into arguments? So it just kind of depends on their needs.
Speaker 1:That makes. That makes a lot of sense to me. So when you were talking earlier, you were talking about this personal agenda for change. Can you talk a little bit more about you know what that kind of looks like or how you kind of walk people through that? It feels like an important part of couples work, because any conflict requires both parties, and so this idea of I have my own personal changes that I need to make and whether those are in alignment with what my partner thinks I should be doing, that could be probably a whole different conversation, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we're not. You know we're not getting into the nitty gritty of you know, let's work out a schedule for washing the dishes or something like that. We're looking at, you know, interaction patterns and so we're looking at, okay, if there's a couple and one partner is very kind of emotionally distant or, you know, not as attuned to their partner, then we might look at that and say, okay, you're hearing your partner saying to stay in this, I really need to feel more emotionally connected. So then that other partner who tends to withdraw a little bit, they would understand that. Okay, my personal agenda for change, one big thing is I need to work on being more emotionally present and attuned to my partner and and and you know understanding this is a process. It's not going to happen overnight, but that would be. It's almost like I almost think of it as like prep work for a treatment plan for couples, therapy of like really outlining what are the issues, what are the goals for both of them and you know where do they want to be.
Speaker 1:So I love what you just said. You know it's the prep work for a treatment plan for couples therapy. So it's sort of like, hey, we're addressing or we're highlighting or we are kind of bringing to a level of awareness these kind of bigger issues or these bigger ideas beyond sort of some of the like tiny details of what might be making the relationship work or break. It's more like these bigger ideas that then later if they decide to stay together, then we work on them. But if these bigger ideas we can't get them to commit to in these sort of shorter sessions and then they're going to break up anyway, it feels like why did we only focus on just chore responsibility on a Tuesday?
Speaker 2:Right, exactly yeah, and that stuff can be worked on in couples therapy if they choose to do that. You know some couples, I think, do really benefit from getting down to the details and getting really concrete, but it's more about outlining. Here are the issues, here is what contributes to these interaction patterns that we have with each other, and then what could we do to change those patterns.
Speaker 1:What you know of all the couple's work like what really drew you to this approach.
Speaker 2:You know, I just thought it was really fascinating when I first heard about it and I wanted to just learn more about it because I've seen that quite a bit. I mean, lots of couples get to a place where they are a little ambivalent or they go back and forth on making a decision. And you know, I mean look at the divorce rates in our culture. And all of those people at some point have been in a place where they're considering divorce before they get there. So, yeah, it's a huge thing. And you know, I've been through a divorce myself. I've been there, you know. So, yeah, it's a huge thing. Um, and you know I've been through a divorce myself. I've been there, you know. So it, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It's a really hard decision to make. When you're talking about you know, you can look at her, at your relationship, and say, okay, I'm unhappy, I'm, we have these problems, whatever. And if I had just met this person yesterday, there's no way I'd continue seeing them and that's a reality. And the reality is you're married or you've made this commitment. You have this whole life together. You know all of these things. You've been together for some people 20, 30 years, whatever. So it's a different situation, right, like the decision to continue to date someone is a very different decision than the one to continue a marriage when it's struggling and it is hard.
Speaker 2:So I was just really fascinated by it and I thought, oh cool, great, a short term intervention to help these couples.
Speaker 2:Because the last thing you want when you've been going back and forth in your head about should I leave, should I stay, what should I do, Is a huge, long, drawn out process that just keeps you going back and forth in your head for months and months and months. And that's why this process was designed to be so short term, because we're talking about, in you know, a month or less essentially being able to have this clarity about a next step and and even if it's not, even if they choose path one and they're still not 100% sure they can at least have some more insight and some more understanding. So it takes people from this place of limbo and feeling so unstable and not knowing what to do to a place of okay. Even if I don't love this idea I may not be a hundred percent I can still feel confident about this being a good next step and I think that's really amazing to be able to help people to do that.
Speaker 1:You know I often say to you know clients, that once an out gets placed on the table as a possibility and whether that's divorce, whether that's I'm quitting my job, whether that's I'm quitting my workout routine you know, it's like once the option is on the table, it becomes very, very hard to not think about that as a viable option. And I think that's what we're talking about here, right? Is that? Like it's hard to push toward positive growth on a consistent basis. That doesn't mean it can't happen.
Speaker 1:I just think about, kind of in my own life, when I've like and I'll use the example of trying to get back in shape or stay on a workout routine or whatever If I were to commit to like this X number of weeks or months on this program and I said there's no out like you're, you just have to do this six months of this program.
Speaker 1:It's like, okay, I've got it in my mindset, I'm not thinking about quitting, I'm not even allowing myself to think about quitting and so I only have one path forward.
Speaker 1:When divorce is on the table as an option, it's like you're always kind of like looking at that thing on the table instead of looking at whatever progress looks like or whatever you know positive movement looks like in that relationship, and so I think it is a really smart way of at least whether it's temporary, you know, for that six months or whatever that I'm saying I'm taking it off the table so I don't distract myself from wherever the positive growth needs to be, because I do think that's real in a lot of situations that our brain tends to kind of wander over to like well, things might be easier or the grass might be greener, if or well, you know, now that I have another option, maybe I should explore another option. It's like if you don't have another option to explore, then it gives you to what you're saying over and over right. It like gives clarity toward. This is the path we're headed on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. And I think, as we know with with couples in therapy, you know, sometimes it it gets a little bit worse in the beginning before they start seeing improvements, because you have to really help couples feel and understand how they have hurt each other and repair and everything. And so you know, what we see a lot with couples or anyone in therapy is that, you know, on the bad days or the really tough sessions, they may start thinking, oh, therapy isn't working, why did I do this? Blah, blah, blah. So we want to make sure that, before couples get into that, that they're at least committed to the process. They may not be super hopeful or they may not feel like, oh for sure, this is going to work, this is great and that's OK, especially the leaning out partner, but we want them to at least be committed to the process and understanding OK, I am taking divorce off the table for six months. I'm going to give this a true, genuine try and see what happens.
Speaker 1:That is actually a good clarification because in my head the next question I was thinking and I'm going to ask it anyway, just to make sure that I'm thinking in the right sense but if I'm the person who's leaning in and my partner is leaning out, and you kind of described this process to me, that says, okay, well, you know, in three to four weeks or so in these sessions, we're going to get both of you to commit to path one, path two or path three. I was curious if there are people three. I was curious if there are people, particularly the leaning in partner, who might feel anxious about like no, no, no, don't let my partner choose right now whether they're going to leave or stay, because they're going to choose to leave. You know, like, does that happen? Or is it to what you're saying like part of the explanation of getting people to understand discernment counseling is? We're not saying you're deciding to stay together forever. We're saying you're going to commit to this as a process.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that is a big piece of it, especially to help the leaning out spouse not feel like they're going to be trapped Like oh my god, outspouse. Not feel like they're going to be trapped Like oh my God, I'm going to have that. Like, this is it. And yes, the leading in partner often is very anxious and this is where the like consult calls come into play that are really important before starting discernment work with a couple and really making sure both of them understand what this process looks like, that as therapists, we're not telling them what to do. It's not like we're sitting there as the expert saying, here's what's going to happen for your marriage, like nope, it's up to them. Right and understanding.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is a possibility for the leaning in partner. Making sure they understand there's a possibility your partner will want to commit to couples therapy and trying to make the marriage work. There's also a possibility they're not going to want to do that and just making sure they're prepared for we really don't know what's going to happen through this process. It could go either way and if they don't want to do it because that makes them too anxious, they don't have to. That's their choice. But you know, just making sure it's really all out on the table.
Speaker 1:And this is what it looks like and here's what could happen you know I talk about informed consent and you know when I'm training graduate students and the more I talk about informed consent, the more I realize the importance of informed consent. You know that it's like people really need to know what they're signing up for and what it's going to look like and what the outcomes could be. And yeah, it just sounds like a really great opportunity to continue to utilize informed consent as an important part of the therapy process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we do it during every session too. So, like Bill the authority, the founder, he really is a proponent of all of us, starting every session with a little spiel about okay, as you know, this is our blank session of discernment counseling and the goals here for you to gain clarity and confidence about a decision for your marriage. You know like there's a lot of repetition of that For exactly that purpose of making sure like it's just drilled in their brain really clear really really clear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I love that aspect Because I do think you know, when you're kind of stepping into a treatment modality where you know it's not like there are necessarily more inherent risks I think there are inherent risks in every part of therapy and I love the like bring it back to the forefront.
Speaker 1:You know I sometimes do that with families or with teenagers. Like, hey, remember anything you tell me that is harm to yourself or anyone else or anyone who can't protect themselves is got is a part of just me being a mandated reporter. I have to tell someone Because I mean I think it's it gives people the. You know I have to explain to students because they sometimes are like, well then, what happens if they don't tell you those things but they're actually happening? I'm like that is their choice, that's the, that's the freedom that we're giving them and you know, if they're suffering because of that, then obviously we want for them to be able to open that door and have that conversation. But not everything in the world has to be talked about. And so I think this informed consent process, where we're reminding people and we're bringing it back to the forefront, is critical, because then they get to choose. They get to make that choice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And and you know it's, it's an intense, action packed process, and you know it's, it's an intense, action-packed process. You know, like we're we're not doing fluff, we're not doing, um, you know a lot of. We're not taking time just to build rapport. I mean, we're diving in pretty quickly, um, and so, yeah, people need to be prepared for what it looks like it's. It is clinical, but it's not the same thing as therapy, because we're not working on improvement. We're really just working on gaining clarity and, hopefully, with them, choosing a path.
Speaker 1:And you know, one hour and a half, two hour sessions are intense. I mean, yeah, it's an intense amount of time to be really kind of honed in and so, yeah, I love this as an option. So, folks who are really interested, where could they go to get training or learn more about it? What's reputable? What is just, you know, Joe Schmoe's version of you know, discernment, counseling or whatever. Where should people go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the official website is discernmentcounselingcom and that's the website for therapists to go to learn more about it and get training in it if they want to sign up for that. There's also through that website there's a discernment counseling directory where couples can go to find a discernment counselor in their area and that's yeah, I think all there on that website is all the good information. So when people want to learn more about you, where should they go To?
Speaker 1:learn more about me. They can go to my website, which is buzzysockstherapycom. And any last word from Liana today, either about discernment, counseling, about anything else that you're doing right now that people should know, about anything else that you want to say.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think you know, like discernment, counseling, I think it the idea that can feel really scary to a lot of people, especially like we were talking about the leaning in partner. People especially like we were talking about the leaning in partner because there's a very genuine, real fear of my partner, may get that clarity to leave me from this process. And that is a possibility. And of course, that feels terrible when it's happening, there's no question. And the reality is, I think it's better to have that clarity and move in that direction so that eventually you can move on with your life rather than just continuing to stay in limbo and stay in the same negative cycle for years and years.
Speaker 1:It's the scariest thing, but it is probably a quicker path to healing, which is ultimately what people want when they come to counseling. Right, they want healing, and, though it might feel scary and unknown to be like, if my partner says no, we're not staying together, then what do I do? That's unknown and scary, but it is a faster path to healing than staying in that limbo space where you haven't made a decision and your partner still leaning out. Yeah, definitely, it's just so good. I'm so glad you said yes to coming. I'm so glad we got to talk about this, because I think it's such a unique, specific issue, but it's one that is so prevalent, and so I'm just grateful that you said yes. Listener, I'm thankful you're here too, and until next time, stay safe, stay well, ciao.
