Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 130: You Can't Vacation Your Way Out of Burnout with Laurel Roberts-Meese
What if the life you've carefully constructed is slowly burning you out? Dr. Beth Trammell sits down with licensed therapist Laurel Roberts-Meese for an eye-opening conversation about the reality of burnout – and why that tropical vacation you've been dreaming about won't fix it.
"Burnout comes from a pathological pattern of not choosing yourself," explains Roberts-Meese, delivering one of many powerful insights throughout this deeply resonant episode. As someone who specializes in working with high-achievers and executives, she's seen firsthand how the relentless pursuit of productivity can hollow out even the most passionate professionals.
Roberts-Meese presents a revolutionary framework for understanding burnout prevention and recovery, visualized as concentric spheres beginning with physical health, then behavioral choices, relationships, and finally, meaning and purpose. This holistic approach challenges listeners to examine not just their schedules, but the fundamental ways they prioritize (or fail to prioritize) their own wellbeing.
The conversation takes a particularly compelling turn when discussing how the people around us often resist when we begin setting boundaries. "You burning yourself out for them was kind of working for them," Roberts-Meese observes, explaining why reclaiming your time and energy can trigger unexpected pushback from loved ones.
For those already experiencing burnout, Roberts-Meese offers a practical daily practice: do just one thing in each of the four spheres every day. These small, consistent choices create a foundation for recovery that no two-week getaway could hope to match.
Whether you're on the brink of burnout or simply feeling the weight of chronic stress, this conversation provides both validation and actionable strategies to help you choose yourself without sacrificing what matters most. Visit laureltherapy.net to access Roberts-Meese's Burnout Recovery Kit and learn more about her approach to sustainable wellbeing.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
All right, listen, welcome back. I am your host, dr Beth Trammell, and I am a psychologist and a professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm the director of our Master's in Mental Health Counseling program, and I'm actually really excited about this topic today and prior to starting this recording, I wasn't really sure what we were going to talk about. We didn't have kind of a plan. Some guests come and they kind of want to tell like here are the questions I want you to ask me and here's the topic and I want to have my notes.
Speaker 1:And I think all of that is great and I have lots of guests, like my guest today, who is like no, I have a lot of things that I enjoy talking about and I'm ready for the conversation and this is my expertise. And once I heard what we're talking about today, I was like oh, I hope I don't cry today on the episode because this is going to hit home for me big time and we're going to talk about burnout prevention and recovery with the ever amazing Laurel Roberts-Meese. Thank you for saying yes, introduce yourself to listeners and tell us something fun about you. I know I already know a couple of fun things about you.
Speaker 2:So I'm a licensed therapist. I have licenses in California, florida, virginia, washington and I've got Michigan pending, and I really love working with people that are in high pressure jobs. I see a lot of law partners, a lot of C-suite execs, entrepreneurs, high achievers, people that are doing incredible things in the world and, for some reason or another, are having some mental health issues. I could probably talk about the history of Broadway theater for an hour, unscripted, like with no preparation, but that's not what we're talking about today. But that's just like my thing. You know, some people can do that with baseball, which I guess is a lot cooler in the public eye, but for me it's like musical theater history.
Speaker 1:Okay, do you have a history within theater Like? Was that growing up, were you a theater kid? I?
Speaker 2:was a theater kid. Yeah, and I'm a classically trained singer and I do still sing actually, but not I'm not trying to make a living singing. I love it and I think the joy would be taken out if I tried to make a living. Yeah, but I'm an enthusiastic art supporter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you just gave us like 10 fun things and I love all of them. You know, when you were like listing all the states you were licensed in, I was like we could do a whole episode on like getting licensed in other states, because that probably would be helpful talking to people about that. And I mean until maybe if the licensure requirements ever change or if the legislation ever changes to where you don't have to be feet on the ground.
Speaker 2:Yeah, doing it one by one, because, man, I mean psychologists have at least they have PSYPACT, where you can be in many states, whereas you know a clinician like me, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I just have to do it state by state and some states are just like nope.
Speaker 1:No, I know, and then you have to like renew state by state every year and make sure all the requirements yeah, I was wondering how many you were going to say. And then I was like that's really impressive actually, and and probably also like some folks in our field are shifting, doing more coaching versus doing kind of traditional therapy, that that can kind of help bridge some of that gap. But yeah, so bravo to you. I'm sure that was a lot of hard work.
Speaker 2:And well, and I was not perfect at it I was licensed in Pennsylvania for three years and then I just it accidentally lapsed and I was like, oh well, luckily I didn't have any Pennsylvania clients at the time, yeah. But you know, it's like oh yeah, I didn't keep up with that one and the deadline passed. So even if you're a spreadsheet queen like me, stuff happens.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it falls through, you know, yeah, all right. So this idea of burnout prevention and recovery, I, you know, shortly after COVID, a colleague and I did a study, a survey with teachers on burnout and we kind of asked folks kind of their level of burnout and obviously their level of burnout was high, and that was three years ago. We also kind of studied what would help folks feel less burned out and it was very interesting because it was not clear. And so I'm curious about this conversation and then maybe sharing some of that overlap, because I think part of the struggle that even in my clinical practice I have seen and I'm curious if you see this too is folks respond to fatigue and then later burnout in a variety of different ways and the way in which they feel supported is very different. And I think the first big hurdle is for each person to identify how do I feel supported, Right? So there's a whole lot to unpack here. So where do you want to start in kind of talking about all these things? Yeah, unpack here.
Speaker 2:So where do you want to start in kind of talking about all these things? Yeah Well, I like to come at it from. There's a specific thing that I hear all the time and I even find myself thinking sometimes when I'm feeling more stressed than usual, and I would say I think I've done a good job at preventing burnout and I have a lot of privilege to be able to do that. I'm in a field where I have a lot of control over how much I work, and so I recognize the privilege I'm bringing into that. But there are many therapists that are very burned out. So this idea that a great vacation will be like a reset, and then you won't be burned out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've never, ever heard of someone for whom that actually worked. Yeah, and it's a very attractive thought like, oh, I'll just go on a Caribbean cruise and I'll come back and be refreshed Refreshed, I knew we were gonna say that word together. I mean, you might be temporarily refreshed, but it's not really going to undo the burnout. Burnout takes quite a long time to recover from in ideal circumstances, and if the stressors or the lack of boundaries of the mindset that created the burnout are still there, that vacation is not going to do much. It'll just give you a little break.
Speaker 1:How do you help people recognize where does stress like a typical level or kind of a healthy level? I think there are. There is a healthy level of stress, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a healthy level of stress and and burnout begin.
Speaker 2:A healthy level of stress is motivating. It keeps us from just floating through the river of life without a care. If you're just permanently hakuna matata, you're not getting a lot of meaning out of life, you're not really engaged. So a healthy level of stress allows us to show up meaningfully and put some sense of urgency on things that are actual priorities. When stress has become unhealthy is when it's chronic, when you're starting to have physical or relationship problems because of it, when your self-esteem and your self-concept takes a hit or your self-esteem and self-concept is only based around productivity. I mean, I work with a lot of people for whom that's the case. But when you're getting towards kind of like late stage burnout is when, like, your body starts shutting down and your relationships are just in shambles and it just is everything's kind of everything's chaos and you've likely been very stressed for a very long time.
Speaker 1:So I'm thinking of some folks that I've known in the past that would say, yeah, laurel, I I'm probably burned out, but I can't just quit my job, or people depend on me. Or like how do you get people to like see even a glimpse of a path out of this feeling of I'm trapped in burnout?
Speaker 2:There are very real circumstances where you can't quit your job. You can't take medical leave, although I actually would push on that a little bit. In a lot of cases you can take medical leave, but in circumstances where you are like caring for an ailing family member or something, or you have very young children I mean, talk about burned out, right yeah, no, you can't take medical leave from being a parent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not always necessary to take leave or to quit.
Speaker 2:Really, what's going to make an impact is making a mindset shift and setting some boundaries, because if your mindset is, you know, oh, my worth is tied to my work or my productivity or my ability to care for others and you have no boundaries with it, you are always available, like, then you have nothing left for yourself, for yourself. When I have done like really good deep burnout recovery work with people and often these are people that were in like severe situations where they did have to take leave they go back to work. If they really have implemented those boundaries and have a different mindset, they actually can be just as productive, just as effective, just as reliable and, like have some energy left over for themselves and the people they love and the things that bring them joy. That's the goal of recovering from burnout.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I'm wondering if the sort of mindset shift and setting boundaries right, I'm like thinking about these in two lenses and I don't know whether I should be. So that's kind of my question. Right, you talk about burnout prevention and then burnout recovery, and so are the strategies toward burnout prevention different than those when okay, I'm already burned out, laurel, now what do I do?
Speaker 2:No, there's a lot of overlap and I look at things really holistically. So I want you to imagine, like you know, those like intersection and like illustrations where they like cut out and you can see the inside of something.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, so yeah, so like if there's a sphere and you're looking at like a cross section of it. The outer layer is like your physical health, right. So like medical issues and honestly, sometimes these get overlooked. For people that are burnt out, like, if they're like, if they're anemic and not taking their iron supplements or they have a thyroid issue, that I mean that'll you'll feel real burnt out with a thyroid issue if you're not treating it right. Other things that are going on that there may be a simple solution to right In terms of physical health.
Speaker 2:So we always start with like a full workup, like what's going on physically, rule out anything that would just make this an impossible task without medical intervention, right? So that's the first layer and that for some people, if you start taking care of your physical health, that can be enough, but not for most people, right. Then you look at behavioral health. What are you doing? That's the next layer of this sphere. So what are you? How are you nourishing yourself?
Speaker 2:And I use that word very gently because I feel like we can get into like morality and like eating disorder territory very quickly but it's like are you feeding yourself regularly? Is it a good nutrient balance and also some pleasure, because we should be getting some pleasure from food and so but not just food, it's also are you doing things that bring you joy? Are you sleeping enough? Are you moving in a way that feels good for your body, that behavioral layer. You can often make small adjustments that have a big impact. Even just meal planning is a terrible example, because everyone's like, yeah, yeah, whatever, I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 2:But making sure that you have access to quick, nourishing, delicious food so that you don't skip meals during a stressful day Like that can make a huge difference. I've worked with some. I had the privilege of working with some COVID unit nurses in pre-vaccine pandemic working on the COVID unit and, like so, much of what we were talking about was like very basic physical self-care.
Speaker 1:Talk about burned out working in the COVID unit.
Speaker 2:And, like so, much of what we were talking about was like very basic physical self care yeah. Talk about burned out working in the COVID unit, yeah. And a couple of them were like Laurel. It's kind of amazing what taking five minutes to eat lunch will do for me.
Speaker 1:I'm like, yeah, I I just did a talk on mom guilt and I brought up this issue that I have talked about in other sessions too that it's like we spend all of our time, for example, as mothers, right, or as nurses, or as caregivers or parents, whatever, and we're like constantly thinking about I'm packing the diaper bag. My kids are over now, praise God, I'm not packing diaper bags anymore, but it can be a figurative diaper bag. It can be a figurative diaper bag right when I'm like I'm I'm loading the car up with all the things that the kids will ever need on vacation or on this trip to the zoo, or we're going to the park and I I never put like, a protein bar in for Beth, you know. It's like, oh, I've got the goldfish and the yogurt melts and I've got, you know, all the dumb food for the kids. I shouldn't say dumb food. Maybe my editor will fill that.
Speaker 1:All the things that are not actually nourishing for my body. I love that question Like how are you nourishing yourself? And I was thinking to myself that's probably a big part of that sphere.
Speaker 1:And I guess it varies, the behavioral is huge, yeah, I mean, but I guess it also could vary, like if you're a person who hasn't gotten a physical exam in five years, that outer layer may be a very thick layer. And then the behavioral part is another sort of big chunk of the work. And yeah, I think most people think meal planning and they think, oh, I'm going to get my little cute containers on a Sunday and I'm going to plan for the whole week. But really what we're saying is how are you prioritizing?
Speaker 2:Yes, Like your basic physical body. Yes, yeah, and move your body. Yeah, and it doesn't need to be like a, you know, really intense weightlifting session at the gym. It can be like you have to take an important call but you're in a quiet neighborhood so you go for a walk. Yeah, like it can be anything. It can be just kind of dancing around while you're folding the laundry. It doesn't need to be super time consuming and structured.
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting, no-transcript with particularly like high achieving people, pleasing perfection clients, that it was like, week after week they were doing, they were doing quote, self care for the sake of achieving, yes, Versus to like, actually like, nourish their body and their soul and their you know whatever it was like, well, I did do this Right. So I'm just curious about your perspective on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, Having fun is some of the best self-care. This doesn't need to be like tracked on your Apple Watch or like logged in MyFitnessPal or whatever it is. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Like you're going to remember, one of the most memorable days I had a few years ago was I was I'm in Southern California and I was at a doctor's appointment and I realized like, oh, I have 90 minutes before my next meeting. I'm just going to like go to the beach and put my feet in the water and like there, there was nothing productive about this. And yet, like the sense of calm I felt and also just gratitude for being in control of my schedule and having the freedom to do that, to be able to impulsively just go put my feet in the ocean, that was so memorable and so restorative. It didn't actually take that much time, but there was nothing that I could check off my to-do list for it, and yet it did so much for me. I still remember it and it's been like four years, you know.
Speaker 1:I love that story. Thanks for sharing that story, because I relate to this idea of having moments and it feels like I'm 44 and I'm still like just kind of learning how to do this. Well, that like moment to moment, day to day like self-care looks very different for me. It's like some days I've been sitting all day and self-care really does look like taking a walk, but other days it looks like not, and it looks like giving myself permission and having self-compassion. And I remember this idea that I said in my mind I'm choosing me and so I feel like this sense that you're describing is like I'm choosing me right now and I'm choosing gratitude and I'm choosing not to be productive and check things off the list and just the empowerment in that moment. I remember some moments, just kind of in the last year maybe, where I've had a similar moment where my like self-care goals for the month were fill in the blank and I was like no, I'm turning on Netflix and you know, today, my body-.
Speaker 1:And we're dipping Oreos in peanut butter, that's the self-care today and tomorrow it's going to be getting up and going to that yoga class or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I mean. Something just occurred to me as you were saying that I think that burnout comes from a pathological pattern of not choosing yourself. Oh, okay, say it again Pathological pattern. Yeah, burnout comes from a pathological pattern of not choosing yourself. Oh, that's tough, yeah, and there's a lot tied up in there and a lot of gendered stuff around, like being a good caregiver, being a good mom, being a good daughter being a good partner, being a good employee, being a good whatever you are, whatever is most salient to your identity.
Speaker 2:Like you can do both. You can choose yourself and still be a good daughter and still be a good partner and a good mom and a good employee.
Speaker 1:I love this. Okay, we got to break this down because I totally agree that I think it's one or the other. I think we live in a world where so often it's one or the other. I can only have one feeling, and it's sad it's either I'm a good mom or I'm a bad mom. It's either I'm a good wife or a bad wife. It's either that. I love reminding myself and other people you can do both. It can be both. You have to yeah, yeah, okay. So let's say, I'm a person who I'm not quite to burnout yet and I hear you talking about burnout prevention. What are some of the common things? Obviously, we're talking about self-care and we're obviously encouraging people to like recognize what self-care kind of looks like on a daily or a moment to moment or weekly basis, whatever that looks like for you. What other kinds of things do you talk about in terms of burnout prevention?
Speaker 2:Well, so the next layer of that sphere? Oh yeah, we got to go back to that. Yeah, the next layer of that sphere oh yeah, we gotta go back to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the next layer of that sphere is relationships.
Speaker 2:Okay, so how healthy are your relationships? Are you surrounded by people that see you as a whole person, that celebrate you as a whole person, that want the best for you? Because positive relationships and enough relationships are one of the number one predictors of longevity and life satisfaction. You can be very sick, and if you have really good relationships, you're going to have more life satisfaction and more longevity than if you don't. Now this isn't to say you need 100 best friends, because no one has 100 best friends.
Speaker 2:But if you have really good quality friendships and a meaningful, healthy partnership and healthy family relationships, those are going to be protective against burnout.
Speaker 1:I love that. It's interesting, Do you kind of go in this order that you're looking not, you're looking at physical health first, then we're exploring what nourishes you and then we're talking about relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's. It's kind of Maslow's hierarchy in a way. I hadn't thought of it that way. But you know, if someone like is not like their insulin's out of control you're not talking about like their relationship to God or whatever their belief system is Right it's like no, we need to like stabilize you, right. So this is.
Speaker 2:But the people I work with are very smart, like they don't need to be told that they need to take their blood pressure medication, like that. If I need to tell them that, like, we have bigger problems. And they also know that they need to be moving their body and eating regularly, right? So I'm sure some listeners had some reaction in the beginning of the podcast. They're like, yeah, okay, we know, dr Beth Laurel, we know we got to move, we got to take our medicine, we got to like you know an apple a day.
Speaker 2:But it's more complex than just move your body and eat and sleep, right, and it's the quality of those things and your relationships, right. So we generally do go in this order in therapy. We just very beginning of therapy, like, hey, go see your primary care provider and just get a basic workup. Make sure we're not missing something there. Okay, great, all came back normal or like we just need little tweaks, great. And then we look at like very basic behaviors and then the quality of those behaviors. And then we start looking at relationships and that's really where the meat of some of this can happen, and it could be your relationship to work, could be relationship to yourself or relationship to how you view yourself worth. That's all in that like third layer in there and you can spend a lot of time in there.
Speaker 1:I mean, I could imagine, even though we sort of know these things, like even some of those layers, it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, Beth, I know. And then I'd be like, okay, well, when's the last time you got your teeth checked? And they're like well, I had to cancel because I had this meeting come up and I was like, okay, so, when's the last time you had your teeth checked? Well, I don't really know. And it's like okay, so, yes, you kind of know. I think sometimes we smart people are like kind of the worst ones at it because we're like, yes, I already know what I got to do and I'm not doing it, so it's like yes.
Speaker 1:So what are the obstacles to you not being able to do the things you know you need to do?
Speaker 2:And it is often that relationship to work or your self-concept not believing that you're worthy of prioritizing yourself, and that can be a trauma message, that can be cultural beliefs, that can just be the specific work environment you're in Lots of reasons that that would be happening Because, yeah, our clients are smart. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they come. You know I often say this during the informed consent process. You know that I'm like it's going to sound like we're having a conversation, because you've probably already tried everything you know to do. And you're still stuck. My job is to kind of talk you through like how to get you unstuck, because you've tried all the other things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I will say, though, that sometimes I'll be working with someone for a while and then they start backsliding and I'm like what am I, what am I missing here? And then it turns out, oh, they stopped taking a medication or like some like big thing happened that they just didn't mention, and I'm like, well, of course it was that outer layer again.
Speaker 1:It's like we're going back there. Yeah, so it's like just because we uncover one part of this does not mean we're not coming back to it at some point. Yeah, yes, Totally Okay. So we've got physical. We've got sort of this behavioral, nourishing, physical, all the things. We got relationships. Then what do we come to?
Speaker 2:That center, layer, that core. Some people call it spirituality. I like to be more inclusive than that, because the word spirituality evokes a lot for people, but it's a sense of meaning and purpose and connection to something bigger than yourself.
Speaker 1:Yep, okay.
Speaker 2:And here we are at the top of Maslow's hierarchy, right, yep. And if you have a sense of meaning and purpose in your life and you have positive relationships and you're behaviorally healthy and physically healthy, like you're probably a very happy person, yeah.
Speaker 1:And your risk of burnout is pretty low. Yes, yes, yes, okay, when we get to people that are like oh, I just feel like I'm so burned out, I just don't find meaning in my work anymore. It's like, or they come because they're like I want to find meaning, do you start there or do you just say, well, actually, let's kind of come back? I mean, obviously it's not as prescriptive as I'm describing, but I can imagine there's a lot of people that, like they get to this place and they feel lost. I mean, I think burnout is kind of a slippery slope to I am kind of lost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to put a hypothesis out there that they're burned out because they thought they would get the sense of meaning in a place that they didn't end up getting it. I'm sure you remember the process to getting licensed as a therapist.
Speaker 2:It's quite a lengthy process and out here in California after your three-year degree, you have to do 3,000 hours of largely unpaid work. It's a lot and you have to take a couple of exams, and this was a while back. I've been licensed for a while but I took my exam. I knew I was passing. As I was taking it I was like, oh yeah, I studied hard, I got this, and then they just hand you a piece of paper as you're leaving and it tells you if you passed or failed. And it said pass and I just I went out to my car and I was just like I don't feel different. Yeah, I thought that getting licensed would like I would like molt and become this yeah, complete person and I was like, oh, I'm still me. Yeah, I have not arrived anywhere different. I am no better a therapist than I was yesterday, and so I think that I was attaching meaning to passing that exam. That wasn't actually due.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, Okay. So what if we start down this path a little bit Like? I can imagine that that is probably a slippery slope toward having the risk for burnout Putting, finding or searching for meaning in places where maybe it doesn't happen, Like what are other sort of like risk factors toward that slippery slope of burnout.
Speaker 2:Humans are inherently meaning makers. That's kind of what differentiates us from other species Although we don't know. I'm sure there are other species that make meaning of things but we are able to express it yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And in a very tangible way. And just as the body is naturally inclined toward healing you know you accidentally get a cut, your body heals itself body is naturally inclined toward healing. You know you accidentally get a cut, your body heals itself. I think we are always trying to resolve something that is unhealed within us. So whatever core messaging we got as a kid if it's, you know you need to be perfect to be good, or you need to be of service to be lovable, or you need to achieve to be valuable, or we're always trying to resolve that, and sometimes we do it in a healthy way and sometimes we do it in an unhealthy way. Right, so getting curious about, like, what are you trying to resolve through the behaviors that second, second layer that are burning you out? Like, let's imagine you were able to achieve everything you're trying to achieve, what would it mean about you? That's where you go in and question is this really the best way to get that resolution?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because if the answer is no, to get that resolution, yeah Cause if the answer is no, then that's devastating.
Speaker 1:Then that's devastating, and I wonder if it also becomes the fuel, like I want to avoid having to think about that, no, and so I'm just working, working working, so I can avoid thinking, thinking, thinking yes, yeah, yeah, completely completely.
Speaker 1:So I heard this stat at a conference pre-COVID and I have found like glimmers toward it, but I can't find the original research. So, anyway, this presenter talked about this research that they said was out of the Mayo Clinic to reduce the risk of burnout, particularly for medical providers. Because the Mayo Clinic obviously is invested in reducing burnout for medical providers and I actually share this stat a lot because I think whether I know for sure it's factually true. I think theoretically it is a good thing to sort of ponder or hypothesize, but I'm curious if you've heard this. So he was sharing about how to reduce our risk of burnout. We need to spend 20% of our week on things that invigorate us.
Speaker 2:Interesting. You know that's a. That is a strategy that a lot of tech companies were using that like four days a week you do your job and one day a week you work on a project you care about.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Something that really excites you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:I know I can't find the original research, but I think it's, I think, what I've said it every time this sort of way that I'm like I can't fact check this, but I think for a point of talking about things I bring up these two kind of critical points around this is that I think we don't actually know what invigorates us.
Speaker 1:You know, this presenter like underlined the word vigor and on this like whiteboard he was writing on, and he was like vigor means to strengthen and I think most of us think, oh yeah, self-care is like mostly like sedentary kind of events that like I don't come after I've like sat on a couch and feel like strengthened. You know, like I'm not energized by those things, I just restful, maybe, or content or whatever. For me, I'm curious about this idea of what are things that strengthen people, that invigorate people, and if you get invigoration from your job, then 20% of your week doesn't seem like that much, right. But if you're not invigorated by your job, then you have to find 20% of your week, which is a lot of time, and so I mostly talk about it through the lens of like one what? What invigorates you, what strengthens you and how can you do more of those things, and whether it's 20% or 10% or whatever, if you're at 0% right now, then it certainly makes sense that you're on a fast track to burnout.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it also makes me think of any budget that doesn't have any discretionary spending or like room for like spending on things that are fun. That budget will fail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's your discretionary fund for fun? Yeah, and by fund we don't always mean money, but sometimes we do mean money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh-huh, yeah, I mean, it's also a privilege to have discretionary funds, true, yeah? I mean it's also a privilege to have discretionary funds, but if we think of time as a resource, money as a resource when we feel limited, whether we feel, whether that's true or perceived- right.
Speaker 1:So, whether it's true or perceived that I feel like we don't have enough resources, whether it's time or money, or fill in blank like, if I don't feel like I don't have enough for fun, that's a fast track to burnout, even if you, you know, you look at the bank account and it's like actually you do. You do have enough funds for fun. How do you prioritize it?
Speaker 2:It's really hard when there are a lot of demands. Laura Vanderkam wrote a book called Off the Clock. She's a time management expert and she wrote a book called off the clock um, about like, how do we find ways to have more time for fun? Like, we still need to be productive, we still need to be reliable, we need to show up when we say we will right. Um, but how do we configure our schedules so that we have fun.
Speaker 1:That's good, I mean, it's like it's convicting, really right. It's like, wow, how am I creating a life? And I sometimes, you know, find myself my poor teenagers. You know, it's like I have two teenagers and I have two preteens and it's like they're like mom, why do you always have to ask like big, deep questions and I'm like. I don't know Cause I'm a big deep thinker I don't know how to do anything else and to therapists those deep questions are fun.
Speaker 2:It's just like our whole life.
Speaker 1:you know I'm having a blast on this podcast talking about burnout and like how do we what could be better? I know it's like when I talk about invigoration it's when I can have like three episodes of talking on this, on this episode, on these podcasts, just with so many smart people. But I think about this idea of like leading a life and living a life that I don't look back and regret, and whether that's in the moment of like, ah, I kind of regret like not getting up to go, you know, work out this morning. Or I regret not taking baby pictures of the kids and putting them in that little frame where they like you see all the little pictures all in a row. You know it's like.
Speaker 1:So I think about that as I, as we talk about some of these things around burnout and some of these behavioral choices and physical choices, and I think sometimes it's scary to think about life through that lens of I don't want to live a life of regret, and so I think sometimes we just like don't think about it. Yeah, you know, I don't want to live a life of regret, and so I think sometimes we just don't think about it. Yeah, we don't think about the things that we know we need to do to reduce burnout. We don't think about the things, and so we just keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah we just keep going.
Speaker 2:I also will add that a lot of people consider some escapist activities to be fun and I will say, if your burnout prevention or recovery plan involves excessive amounts of time on social media, substance use or like other things, that where you're checking out, that's not what we're talking about when we say fun.
Speaker 1:I love that you said that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're saying like do you make I don't want to say a formal plan, but you're sort of talking about a plan Like do you like have them write things? Want to say a formal plan, but you're sort of talking about a plan Like do you like have them write things down? Do you use like a template or like when?
Speaker 2:you talk to people? Yeah, we do. This is usually in the case of, you know, pretty severe burnout, and particularly if someone is going on medical leave for burnout which we've definitely done in our practice here I have a team that I manage and we all do burnout recovery and particularly if someone is going on medical leave, you can't just go on leave without a plan. You go on leave with a plan for recovery and then returning to work with new tools and a new mindset that prevent it from happening again. So we just talked about those four layers of burnout prevention and recovery.
Speaker 2:Every day. Do one thing in each category, one thing for your physical health, one thing, like behaviorally, that's good for you, one thing to nurture meaningful relationships and one thing to tie you to something bigger than yourself that creates meaning. And it can be something that takes five minutes. We're not talking about, like I mean, people who are burned out, are scarce on time and sometimes scarce on money. So we're not talking about major investments there. But if you are really burned out, but if you are really burned out like, you can't afford not to pay attention to these four areas. So physical health could be scheduling one doctor's appointment, you know, portioning out your pills and supplements for the week. It can be grabbing an extra fruit or vegetable and chopping it up for yourself. It can be like there's so many like very quick things you can do for that physical health layer, right? Same with behavioral.
Speaker 2:I know I am much more likely to go to the gym if I put my clothes out the night before. You know like those little things. Or you know, deciding, you know what? Nope, I'm not going to eat more sugar. I'm going to put that away and find something that, like, I still enjoy eating but is a little more nourishing, is like a long-term investment. So exercise for some people is a long-term investment. Even if they don't enjoy it, they can find some joy in it.
Speaker 2:But again, this can be something that's quick and kind of fits into your life, relationships. It can be a call during your commute, it can be, you know, reaching out to someone you know who's going through a hard time. We're investing in these important relationships. I know I moved to a new city five years ago and it was in the middle of COVID, right. So I am now still like really having to invest in, like building meaningful relationships where I live now, because it doesn't just happen. It's something you have to very intentionally do, honestly, every single day if you want to have a really robust network of people near you. And it doesn't take a ton of time but it does require persistent effort every day. And then you know that meaning, that connection to something bigger than yourself that's a little more abstract, so that's going to look very different for every person.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you, when you first said very different for every person, I'll tell you when you first said, hey, you got to do every day, do one thing in each category, my first thought was, wow, that is a lot. I mean, that's a big commitment. And my very next thought was you don't treat a broken limb with an aspirin If you are to the point of burnout. This isn't just like well, let's just give it a good old once a day, one time, just in your whole life.
Speaker 2:Try Just take a multivitamin.
Speaker 1:No, it's like you really have to get the wheel turned around here and it's going to take creating intentional habits to be more in tune to being on the right side of the ship for each of those areas.
Speaker 2:But I can imagine if I'm burned out.
Speaker 1:It's like yes, consistent effort. I can imagine, though, if I'm burned out it's like, oh my gosh, laura, I don't have time for that, or I'm just so overwhelmed by that. But yes, we have to be able to be intentional if we've gotten that far.
Speaker 2:And here we are back to like no, that vacation won't do anything because it's not a sustained practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love this idea of vacation for two reasons. One, because I think I talk to so many people that are like I'm actually more stressed on vacation because I'm thinking about the things that I have going on back home. I'm thinking about the things that I have going on back home and also I, for me, vacations don't actually happen unless, like I'm by myself, or if it's just me and my partner. It's not Vacation with kids, is just life somewhere else, like I still have to feed them and I still have to make them clean up after themselves, you know, and like all the things. So it's like I also am the queen of like that sounds like so much fun.
Speaker 1:Every summer in our community they do this eight mile bike ride or something, and it's like this family ride and you sleep over, and like this abandoned school and they have this whole thing set up or whatever. And I'm like, ah, that sounds like so much fun and I have never once done it because my husband always reminds me that's actually not going to be fun. Like you're actually going to be really stressed, it's going to be hot, kids are going to be tired, but it's going to hurt from the bike. You know, it sounds more like fun or nostalgic, and sometimes we just need like a person around us who is like actually that's not fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as the eldest daughter, I have, you know, taken on the role of family trip coordinator. Okay, especially, as you know, my brother and I have gotten married and so now there are new people in the family and it takes more to coordinate. And I'm thinking about, like, as I think about this myth of like, no, a vacation won't fix anything, I'm like, well, actually, you know, that trip that we took that actually was pretty restorative. But then I think, why was it restorative? We were on a cruise so everyone could get their needs met in one place and I didn't have to worry about it. Like, as long as everyone got back on the ship on time, like we were fine, yeah, and it was. Also there were no children with us. So number one reason it was relaxing.
Speaker 2:And then I put everything in place so that I literally did not open my laptop or check my email a single time the whole time we were on that trip. I was completely cut off from work in a responsible way. I had prepped for it Like it was all good and there was an auto responder and I went into the trip with an intention of just being like radically present to every moment. And I mean it was a cruise to Alaska, which is just breathtakingly beautiful and there were just so many moments of like natural wonder and awe that I was able to be mentally present, for Mindfulness being a really powerful tool to combat burnout, right. So I don't think I was burnt out going into the trip, but we're all looking for that escape and that awe and wonder and sense of connection to something bigger. I'm one of those people that like being in nature and seeing the natural wonders certainly helps with that. So it wasn't the vacation itself that was restorative for me, it was everything I did intentionally to make that vacation restorative.
Speaker 1:I think it's incredible and I love what you said and it's probably our kind of I mean we've had a lot of mic drop moments, I think, but this idea of being radically present, and I mean it does take kind of a radical shift in how you interact with the world around you to disrupt burnout if you're there, I mean it's going to take a radical shift in all four of those areas that you're talking about and it's going to be uncomfortable and people around you may not love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people generally resist when you start setting boundaries or prioritizing yourself. They're going to have a reaction to that, because you burning yourself out for them was kind of working for them. And they can get very creative in how they react to you, setting boundaries in a way that makes it hard to reinforce the boundary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'm writing down right now that the next time you come on, it's like when burnout prevention and recovery doesn't work for the people around us, because I mean it's like its whole episode on its own. And how do you hold boundaries and how do you stay in that mindset shift that is a part of your prevention plan. And then people around you are like Beth, what are you thinking? Like what do you mean? You're saying no. You've always said yes, and why are you saying no to me? And why can't you say yes? Oh, there's a lot to unpack that we have.
Speaker 1:So, okay, we're going to have to come back and have more conversation around that. In the meantime, how can people learn more about you and the work that you do and ways they can follow you?
Speaker 2:Yep, we're on. Laureltherapynet is our website and we've got some social media, but we don't really interact with people on social media because it's not really ethical. If people are wanting to work with us or get more info, like, just just go to our website, laureltherapynet. It's not up yet but, depending on when this podcast is released, it might be. We're actually working on a. We have a free download. That's like a burnout recovery kit. So if you go on our website, we have a page about burnout and when that's ready it'll be on there.
Speaker 1:I am so excited about that. I can't wait to hear more about that, and I really do think there was so much that you shared that was brilliant and good, and also still so many things to uncover and to continue to talk about. So I will look forward to when we can get back together again to continue that conversation around burnout prevention and recovery, for both myself and for anybody who's listening, because I think it's good for all of us to be reminded of. So thank you for saying yes to being here today. I'm really happy to be here. I am. I'm so grateful for you. So, listener, I'm grateful for you too. Thank you for tuning in today. I hope that you had some nuggets that you can walk away with. Until next time, stay safe, stay well and ciao Bye.
