Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 129: Regulating in an Unregulated World with Marie Sloane
The world feels increasingly chaotic and unpredictable. Global events, endless news cycles, and persistent uncertainty have left many of us stuck in a state of nervous system dysregulation that doesn't seem to subside. Marie Sloane returns to the podcast to share practical wisdom about finding stability when everything around us feels unstable.
Marie introduces us to a transformative "bottom-up" approach to managing anxiety. She explains why our typical cognitive strategies often fall short when our bodies are in fight-or-flight mode, using the vivid metaphor of a kindergarten classroom during a fire drill. Just as kindergartners can't hear the teacher's reassurances while alarms are blaring, our rational brain can't effectively process information when our nervous system is activated.
Through her three-part regulation pyramid, Marie offers concrete techniques that address our physiology first, emotions second, and thoughts third. From surprising somatic tools like popping sour candy (which forces salivation and signals safety to your body) to bilateral stimulation that helps process emotions, each strategy is designed to meet you exactly where you are in moments of distress.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is its practicality. These aren't abstract concepts but immediate, accessible tools you can use anywhere—during a stressful meeting, after reading troubling headlines, or when feeling overwhelmed by world events. The beauty of Marie's approach is its flexibility; different situations call for different strategies, and you're encouraged to discover what works uniquely for you.
Perhaps most reassuringly, Marie reminds us that regulation doesn't have to be complicated or time-consuming. Sometimes the simplest techniques—singing loudly in your car, taking three deep breaths, or simply shaking out your hands—are exactly what your nervous system needs. In a world where so much feels out of control, these tools offer a path back to feeling grounded in your own body and present in your own life.
Visit mariesloancounseling.com to access the full regulation pyramid resource mentioned in this episode and discover which techniques might work best for you.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
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www.bethtrammell.com
Hello listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel, and I'm a psychologist and I love to try to help people make words matter for good. It's kind of my approach or my philosophy to trying to help folks and I am so grateful that marie has said yes to coming back, to being on the podcast today to talk about something that I think, if you aren't relating to it like literally in this second of your life, it's probably only a few moments away until you can be like oh, oh, yeah, I think Marie was in my living room the other day. Just the way she's talking about things, it seems like she knows what's happening for me. So, anyway, marie Sloan is here and I'm so thankful that you said yes to be here. Can you introduce yourself to listeners and tell us one fun thing about you?
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you so much again for having me back. It's always a pleasure. I feel like I've been on your show enough times now. I'm like running out of fun facts about myself, so funny. One fun fact that I have not shared with your listeners before is that I used to be a licensed stockbroker. I worked in finance before I was a counselor. I actually did that my final year of grad school, so I had no intentions of staying in the business, but I did get hired and worked in finance for a whole year before I started my internship. So I'm series seven and six seven licenses.
Speaker 1:That is a really fun fact about you and it's even more fascinating and maybe this is just my brain, like I love math but I really don't have. I really don't have like quite the financial brain. You know, it feels like counseling brain and financial brain are not like even kind of the same brain.
Speaker 2:And this is honestly true. I have a lot of people tell me this and maybe this is why, like for me, running my own private practice and like doing the solo practitioner thing for me was not a huge leap necessarily. Like I had a lot of and I'm married to a financial advisor, so I have to, I also have that. It's a, it's a boost. But for me that like and I didn't really put that together until I've talked to a lot of other so like a lot of other people who are like, yeah, like I've got the counseling thing down, but like the thought of doing taxes or the thought of doing this or saving for retirement, like I don't understand any of that. And so I do feel like it really did give me an advantage for running my own business and doing that part of it.
Speaker 2:But I think I don't know. I feel like there is a little bit of my brain that kind of naturally was I don't know, like I I'm not great at math, but if I have a very finite application to why there's math involved, like I know why, like I know what's going on, yeah, it's a little easier to wrap my brain around. So the finance part of it was a little bit easier than just. You know algebra. I was terrible at algebra, so I love what you said.
Speaker 1:Like there's like a finite way to use math right. It's like, if I don't have to learn all the aspects of all kinds of math, yes, but just like teach me a spreadsheet, or you know a budget, or like you know taxes, like you've got that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you can tell me what the numbers mean and what they're attached to and I can find that real world application for it, absolutely. I even liked statistics, because statistics was you know, these are data points and this is what they represent and this is how you know. Like that made sense to me. Fractions made sense to me, but, like algorithms, never made sense to me it's like where's the real world for that? I know I'm like when am I ever going to use this?
Speaker 1:And I don't like right, you know it's like now, I mean, unless you're in a counseling session with another financial person, and then you have to sort of pretend like you know what they're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which I have had a couple of financial people who were like, oh, you do know what this means, and I'm like, yeah, I can fumble my way.
Speaker 1:I could, you know, maybe fake it till I make it fumble my way through, but no, okay, yeah, well, that's totally unrelated to what we're talking about today, though I love that fun fact about you and I I'm actually really fascinated and probably could talk a little bit more about that, but you know, we were kind of talking about what we should chat about today.
Speaker 1:You know, the thing I often ask guests is what's been kind of coming up a lot in your therapy sessions or what are you kind of really passionate about talking about? And it felt like almost kind of an easy answer for you, though I'm sure there's other themes in your clinical practice right now, but I think a theme that's in many of our clinical practices and even in most of our living rooms or car rides to work or whatever is some unknown and out of my control issue in like the bigger, broader context of the world and what's happening in the world. And so what's been happening in kind of a lot of the work you're doing around the broader world and what's happening, what might happen, what could happen, the anxiety, the fear around the future.
Speaker 2:I have definitely seen and I know we kind of chatted about this a few minutes ago like around the holidays things really started. I started to feel and pick up on a lot of dysregulation within my client and that's not again like to me. I was kind of like, oh, that's not unusual around the holidays, like you know. But then after the beginning of the year again, with everything that kind of started happening within the world, I feel like that only accelerated and it didn't kind of like wind down like I've seen in the past.
Speaker 2:Again, you can attribute this to a lot of uncertainty.
Speaker 2:You can attribute this to things that are rapidly changing. You can attribute to I mean, you could attribute it to pretty much anything, but that has kind of been a theme that I have seen for a lot of people is that this uncertainty and kind of feeling of destabilization and disorientation for some people has really led to spikes in anxiety, spikes in stress and just for some people who, because I work with a lot of trauma, like PTSD symptoms really spiking up and overall, what I've been really trying to focus on and even with myself, like I've kind of had to go back to basics because, like as somebody who has lived with anxiety and at times, panic disorder like since I was a young adult, you know I've definitely felt that as well. So I've kind of had to go back to basics for myself and with my clients about you know what you can control. And so, because so many things right now fill up our control, empowering people by bringing them back to the nervous system, bringing them back to the things that you can do when you start to feel escalated, to at least be feel a little bit more control in your own body, is kind of.
Speaker 2:I've had to kind of just return to that for a lot of a lot of my clients and for myself as well.
Speaker 1:So I'm like thinking, okay, there's two paths where I want to go, but maybe I'm just going to stay with this sort of back to basics thing and then come back to this other path that I was thinking about in terms of maybe a behavioral thought or behavioral approach. So back to basics makes a lot of sense, and some of it makes a lot of sense for me because I talked to folks about we can't control our emotions. Our body is going to have a reaction to the world, and some of that's based on our history, some of that's based on, you know, past experiences, sort of things, but we can't control our emotions. And so I like this idea of kind of coming back to basics. And so when you talk with clients about that and they're sort of like well, marie, what does that mean? How do I do that?
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's where I, having been some of the lived experience over time of dealing with nervous system dysregulation, I like to empower people by at least giving them I like to call it the bottom up approach.
Speaker 2:You know, like there's the top down, bottom up, and I don't think there's any right or wrong way. I know that for me what has worked is dealing with survival brain, emotional brain, then rational brain, like I have to work my way up that pyramid Because if I try to start at the top with like just the thoughts, like if I'm, if my my nervous system, I kind of equate it to, like the body's alarm system. So the metaphor that I've used with clients is it's kind of like when we are having that nervous system dysregulation whether it's a PTSD trigger, an anxiety trigger, like extreme stress trigger, whatever it is if your body's alarm system has been triggered. It's kind of like if there is a fire drill happening in a kindergarten classroom, like the adult in the room, the teacher, your front brain, the rational brain, is probably like it's probably okay, this is probably just stress or anxiety, but because the alarm is going off, the kindergartners are like but something could be wrong.
Speaker 2:It might not be okay, it might be an actual fire. Thing could be wrong, you know. Like it might not be okay, it might be an actual fire. And so that's why I tend to be like, hey, if we can turn that alarm system down, it's a lot easier for the kindergartners to be like, oh, it's just a drill, Okay. So like it's easier for our front brain to manage the feelings if the body is in alignment. Which is why I take that like bottom up approach, and I'm not saying that that's the best thing for everybody or that it works. I'm just saying like that's kind of what has worked for me.
Speaker 2:And so I tend to try to arm my clients with techniques to hit every part of the pyramid. So you need coping skills and techniques to help turn down that alarm system in the body, to help kind of switch out of that sympathetic nervous system response. Then you need to address the feelings, then you need to address the thoughts, and so this worksheet and resource that I've created has 15 techniques that are broken up into bottom of the pyramid, middle of the pyramid, top of the pyramid, because I think we need skills for every single level and so like things at the bottom of the pyramid are examples like the polyvagal exercises that will help activate the vagus nerve, and there's a lot of like integrating, like eye movement. You know you can gently pull on your ears back and forth, you're popping sour candy to force your body to salivate so that it cannot be in fight or flight and salivating at the same time so it automatically starts to downgrade. Cold plunges, like really somatically based exercises, are the things that I typically work on with clients for bottom of the pyramid.
Speaker 1:I am so excited about where we're headed with this and I love that you created a worksheet. It sounds like you got smarter instead of working harder. It's like I say the same things over and over. I need to make a visual. I can't find what I like, I'm just going to create my own.
Speaker 1:I love this metaphor of the fire drill and the kindergartners, and just like picturing kindergartners just running around like chaos, and I think people can relate to that feeling of like.
Speaker 1:I don't know how to describe what I'm feeling on the inside.
Speaker 1:I just feel unsettled or I feel chaotic, or I feel, you know, I think this word dysregulated is one that we're continuing to push in our field as a reminder that our behaviors are not just we're being a pain in the rear, whether we're four or 44. It's like our bodies are. Our bodies are not at kind of a stable, homeostatic place to be able to operate like normal in the environment we're in, and so I love that you're starting with this sort of metaphor and I love the somatic exercises starting at the bottom, and I love that we're talking about things even other than just breathing, though I know we're not discounting breathing. I know you and I both would talk to people about breathing until we're blue in the face, but I think sometimes people get kind of tired of hearing like well, just take some deep breaths, beth, and you'll feel better in your whole soul, and it's like I am breathing as much as I can breathe all the way from my belly and I can't really feel any better. Now, friend, what am I going to do next?
Speaker 2:And I do have breath work on this sheet and, like I know that, like anytime we talk about regulating the body and the heart rate, like respiration is part of it, but it's not the only thing. And there are a lot of people that have tried that or that and that's not the thing for them, right? Or they're a little bit too activated for that in that moment. And that's why I like, and I have been kind of on the hunt as somebody who has tried breathwork and and I like breathwork and that's fine, but it's not the only thing out there, and so there are the other things and I think that it's good. Like again, breathwork is fantastic for some people and the more that you do it, you know, the the the stronger it will work for you and all those things like practicing and all that.
Speaker 2:But there there are alternatives and there are other ways to again slow the heart rate, slow your respiration, without doing breath work. And if you've gotten really frustrated with that in the past, it's nice to have and that's why there's so many there are so many things little techniques on this resource that I've created because I feel like not everything works for everybody and not everything works every single time works every single time and depending on what the trigger was and like what the anxiety is. Not every single coping skill is going to work in any given situation. Like one of the middle of the pyramid things that I have on there because I'm an EMDR therapist is bilateral tapping and like there's a lot of ways you can do that.
Speaker 2:But if you are in the middle of a work meeting, yeah, you can't like all of a sudden just start like butterfly tapping and have people be like you know, like is she, okay, but if you can very subtly just like pop a sour candy in your mouth and then maybe just tap your feet back and forth like you're still so I mean that's. I'm saying like there we need to have a a variety of skills that'll apply in different situations. That will you know. Because, like, a lot of my anxiety comes from heights and going over overpasses and obviously, like I can't let go of the steering wheel and start doing tapping on my shoulders, but again, like that's when, and sometimes the sour candy isn't even like, I'm not going to go, like you know, rummaging through my purse for my sour candy while I'm trying to cross this overpass. That already you know.
Speaker 2:So I mean it's, it's, it's about having different skills for different situations and learning what kind of triggers some of the dysregulation and what our triggers are. But then also know that it can come out of nowhere and that it can also just be brought on by stress. And we can do some of these things even if we're not in panic mode, just at the end of the day to help with like hey, I've had a very stressful day, there's been a lot on my plate, there's a lot going on in the world Like I'm going to. You know, lay down on the ground, put my legs up, do a verbal brain dump, maybe put a weighted blanket on and you know. And then do some breath work or listen to binaural beats or whatever. So I think there's a lot of and that's what I tell people about. This is like you can mix and match and take what works and lose what doesn't, and you know, like it really is about finding what works for you.
Speaker 1:I mean, you said so many things that I I want to just repeat for folks in the back you know it's like you said earlier, like it's not a right or wrong way, and I think that that is a real key here, that you know any of these techniques and what you said also is may not work for you on a Tuesday, but it did work on a Thursday because the trigger was different or my mood was different or my level of fatigue was different, and the way you operate and the way I operate are very different. And so the first thing I want to sort of like reiterate here is that your message for all of us is part of the beauty of having lots of different tools that you practice are that not all of them are going to work all the time for everyone. But it doesn't mean they're bad tools, it just means right now it's not the right tool for this job. And I love what you also said about hey, we don't have to wait. I mean you didn't say it this way, but this was how I interpreted it.
Speaker 1:I think, as therapists, we're sort of constantly trying to get people to move from being reactive all the time to like moving into being more preventative. You know, one of my greatest mentors always told me, like Beth, the instant you start with a client you are trying to work your way out of having a job right. You're like constantly trying to get them to be more and more healthy, more and more self-sufficient. But I love the idea of saying look, friends like, don't wait until you're at a 10 to then have to start looking at this pyramid. The perfect time to do any of these things is when maybe you're at a six or your stress level's at a five or a seven. But if we're constantly waiting until we're at a 10 or a 12 or a 25 on a 10-point scale, we're just setting ourselves up for having a harder time to be able to regulate in these moments.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I tell people along those same lines you can practice these when you're not activated. And if you do that, and you do kind of like you said, find what works for you in those moments where, because it can happen, we can go from like a four to a 10 real quickly because of a trigger, especially those with PTSD. If we know what works for us and we've practiced it, it's just like that, like we do fire drills for a reason, so that we know where to go when there's a crisis. And so if we've been practicing these skills, and even if it is just bringing us down from a six to a four or a six to a three, you know on a, on a regular basis, our body's going to be like oh, we know that, we know what happens when we do this thing. You know, and it's going to be a lot quicker if our bodies that that neural pathway has been created, and like our bodies know like, oh, here's the sour candy. That means you know, that means this is going to happen. And then you know so it is, it's better.
Speaker 2:And I had this adorable client the other day who's new ish with me and we were going through some of these things. And she asked I think it was the greatest question anyone's ever asked me and it made me so excited. And she was like, can I do too many of these things? And I was like, no, yeah, the the answer is no, you cannot be too regulated. Like you can't. You can't do these too much. You know, it was so cute the way that she asked, like she was so excited to try them, and you know she was and I was like I'd rather that question than anything, but that's the answer is like you can't really do too much of this. I think in the current state where there is stress literally everywhere, and so I think that it is a really good. I love the perspective of I'm going to be trying these a lot. Will I overdo it? Yeah, you can't overdo it with the coping skills.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 1:I love the approach of like a curious mindset right, and I think it's one of the greatest gifts that clients can bring when they come to therapy.
Speaker 1:And I think also one of the greatest gifts that therapists bring to be more therapeutic is this idea of curiosity, to say like hey, I'm curious if these things will work. And I've learned about myself I actually brought this up in one of the courses that I'm teaching that I have kind of become a little cynical and moments in my life where, like, I find myself to be a pretty curious person. But then I'm pretty quick to like move to being curious and then judgment, you know, like well, I'm curious about this thing. And then I'm like, well, that didn't work or oh well, that was dumb. I think sometimes clients approach some of our ideas with the potential to be curious, and so how do you like help folks have this sort of curious mindset without it being like I guess? How do you like help folks have this sort of curious mindset without it being like I guess, how do you keep them encouraged if they try one of these things and you're like I still feel terrible, marie's ideas are just dumb.
Speaker 2:And that's something that I haven't had a client get that candid with me yet.
Speaker 2:I would probably laugh if I'm like okay, like, thank you, I'm glad you told me, yeah, I'm glad you took, and I will tell clients like, and I've done this for a long time, I I encourage them to have an open dialogue and I'm like, if something isn't working, it will not hurt my feelings If you tell me like, hey, I tried this thing, it didn't work, okay, cool, now we know that that won't work, now we can move on to other things.
Speaker 2:And you know, like, and that's why it is nice to have a lot of tools in the tool bag. Now have I gotten places with clients where they're doing a lot of the yeah, buddy, like okay, well, yeah, but I tried that one time five years ago and it didn't work. And and I'm like, okay, like, that is fine Again, you were a completely different person five years ago. That moment was different. You know, like. So I try to not overcome objections, because I hate that. That's such a salesy thing, like when I was working in finances that you know they do all the like overcoming objections and you know scrimming people and I.
Speaker 2:I don't like to bring that into the therapy practice, but sometimes it's about gently challenging people to be like, okay, that didn't work one time, but you know how often are you practicing it. Or, um, okay, if that didn't work, what are the other things that you have tried, what are the things that you know don't work, so that we don't go back to a skill that you've already eliminated. And that's why I try to have lots of options. But there have been instances where I've kind of gotten to the end of, like, my bag of tricks with the clients, you know, and been like okay, so you know, now we need to have a conversation of I, I've, you know, and been like okay, so you know, now we need to have a conversation of I, I've, you know, we've, we've tried this and we've tried this, we've tried this, we've tried this and it hasn't worked. What do you want to do? Like, what are you still open to? And try and again like, even if that's like referring them to somebody that maybe has a different skill set than I do, I never try. I never try to make a client feel like they're too much for me, yeah, but I also try to.
Speaker 2:Again, it's that gentle challenging of we've tried a lot of different things and none of these things that we've tried seem to be helping you. And my concern is I want you to feel better and so, if I'm not the person to do that, like we need to be able to find the person or thing or whatever that that will help. And so I try to be very collaborative and I try that collaboration not just because I again like it's not my work to be done. Number one they have to be invested and know that this is like I see you for one hour a week, you know, or several hours a week, maybe, and like you're with yourself the rest of those hours. So like I need you to be invested.
Speaker 2:But if I see them being very invested and I see them being frustrated, and I see them, then it becomes this collaboration of like okay, well, maybe what I have, maybe the skills that I have, are not a good fit for you. What do you think? Where do you want to go from here? And again, I always tell people like I don't take it personally, like if, if something that that I'm doing or that we're doing, like if EMDR doesn't work for you or if IFS doesn't work for you or these skills aren't working for you. Like, I am not going to take that personally, you got to tell me because I'm not a mind reader.
Speaker 1:I mean I just love this response in like a million ways because I'm, I think, as therapists again, like if you are in a relationship I'm going to say this for listeners Like if you're in a relationship with a therapist, right, If you're going to see a therapist and they don't have the approach that Marie is describing, maybe you should find a new therapist. Is that too bold to say, Marie? I mean, I just think good therapists are not making it about them. You know good therapists are saying hey, I welcome you to come in and say this isn't working. And also, if it's chronically not working, then it might be you as a client problem.
Speaker 1:Because, believe it or not, the things that most therapists, most good therapists, are showing you or sharing with you are not just like the Beth Trammell or the Marie Sloan way of breathing. It's like we're sharing with you things that are in the evidence to be shown to be effective for the things we're seeing in our clients. And so the approach for great therapists to say like, hey, I welcome feedback, I want it to be a collaboration. I want for you to feel like you can tell me the truth, Because if you can't tell me the truth as your therapist, it's going to be hard to feel like we can make movement toward a healthier version of you.
Speaker 2:And I do work with a lot of people who their trauma response is a little bit of that. No, I don't want to call it people pleasing, I mean it is, but it just kind of worry for you? Yeah they. They worry because part of their survival has been keeping people happy and making not making waves.
Speaker 2:And so when I actually work with those clients, I make a very concerted effort to be like tell me how that worked for you. Yeah, really, tell me how you're. You know, like, and I encourage them to really be honest and learn to advocate and really let them know like this is a place where you are learning to advocate for yourself and it's a safe place to do that, and this is how we start breaking those old habits. And that is a trauma response, you know. And so it's. Yes, I really do.
Speaker 2:I had a mentor early on who was very, very good at kind of driving home that idea that like this, this process, it's great that we get to be a part of it. And yes, we have this knowledge and yes, we have the skills and people, but it's not about us and like we can't take it personally if, if a skill doesn't work or if a client needs somebody else, or like you know whatever, and I actually have, like therapists that are my clients and sometimes we will have these conversations like a therapist every now and then we'll get ghosted and be like does this happen to everybody? I'm like, yeah, it happens to everybody, it's not about you, it's fine, you know. And so I think that, like you're, like you're saying good therapists, really do make it a let's have, let's be very real and authentic about what is working for you, what you're trying, what's working like and what's not, and it's okay for this thing not to be working, that's okay.
Speaker 1:I mean I love this. I know I'm like I'm sort of like steering us away from our what we kind of thought we were talking about. But I just think, based on what you're saying, I just think it's so important for people to really understand that like therapy is meant to be a process that is like for the client, and I think that's kind of irrespective of whatever orientation you come from, right, like you know, the folks that I'm training are like well, you know, I really like client-centered therapy because you know, I really think therapy is about the client and I'm like every orientation should really still stay in the in the zone that it is about the client. At the end of the day, it's always about the client and it's maybe more of like whether we have a more or less active role and helping guide, but still, like it's it's not really about our ego. Ego shouldn't be about our ego.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, and I think that it's good therapists, and I'm not saying that, like you know, if you don't do this, you're a bad therapist yeah sure uh-huh, yeah, but I think all of us need an ego check now and then.
Speaker 2:I think I love that, it's healthy for us, I think it's you know. And again, like if a client comes to me and says like I, you know, I really think that, and I've had a client do this, and again I felt like in that moment, like I was, there is a little bit of that like Ooh, you know, as a human, like oh me, like hey, I've kind of gotten as far as I can get with you and now I really want to focus on this. And I found somebody to do that and I was like awesome, and, and after the session was over, I did have to do a little bit of that processing that like oh, like you did what you were supposed to do. Again, you got to the point. You got them to the point where they didn't need you and that is a good thing.
Speaker 2:But I think there is that human element where every now and then, like our ego can get in the way, or because we're human and we're not little therapy bots I like to say that to people all the time I am a, I am very much a human, and even though this really is about the client, like when we see clients cause I've seen some clients for years cause it takes with complex PTSD sometimes that stabilization and getting to where they don't need me takes a long time. You, you know it is when we close out it's a bit sad, yep, it is a bit, you know, like I'm excited that they don't need me, but like to be, like you said, in a relationship with a therapist for years and years and years and to not have any emotion is. I think we I'd be lying to myself if I said that, that, like you know, I, you know have no feelings at all. I, that's not true.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean I love this sort of like clarification to about this conversation that we come into every session feeling like our goal is to move their treatment along. It's not always to make them feel better. I think in the long run, our goal is for them to be healthier and in turn, our hope is that they feel better. But not every session is you know. I would say I don't go into every session being like, well, I hope they feel better when they leave, like that's a bonus. But like some of the work of therapy is hard.
Speaker 1:But I think if I come in with this goal of like I want to help them, I want to move them along you know their treatment journey and I have this idea that I think is great, and they're like, yeah, that's not going to work for me. I think certainly I have kind of this human reaction of like, well, you know why not? You know I have a good idea and it's rooted in research and why not? And then I have to sort of take a moment to check it may not be the right time, it may not be the right situation, it may not be the right, you know, kind of moment for that Like there's a lot of reasons why, but I love that you're kind of bringing it back to be like yeah, and sometimes we have human reactions as therapists that we have to be reminded of ourselves and reflect on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we need to be mindful, and we need to you know, and sometimes I mean and I again I think like good therapists do a lot of that like self-reflection and, you know, making sure that we're acting appropriately and like if we're having our feelings, because you know we might, um, what is that and why did that come up? And you know, and and again, like, like I said, like not intentionally, but like bringing it back to some of this. Like if I have a uh, a session where the the client was very dysregulated and we're going through the skills and we're trying to get intentionally, but like bringing it back to some of this. Like if I have a, a session where the the client was very dysregulated and we're going through the skills and we're trying to get them there. Like sometimes that can lead to some like that was a hard session for me. Like I need to now lay down and do some of those regulation skills because it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's we I know that you know in, in theory we are supposed to be these blank slates and like you know just, but we are humans and we do absorb that energy and we hold a lot of space and sometimes that's hard. And I think that that's why it is good for therapists themselves to also be doing some work and like be again, like be checking our egos and be checking in with ourselves and be checking our own nervous system responses and and again, like making this like a I'm not an expert on everything and just like disseminating all of this knowledge into you and, just like you know, like little baby birds, you're just supposed to eat it up, like that's, that's just like that's not how therapy works.
Speaker 1:That is not how therapy works. That's not at all how therapy works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's some like bro podcaster. You know I'm talking about like that gross masculinity type energy, like that's not, that is not that's not how, that's not how I was taught to do therapy.
Speaker 1:That's, I'll say it that way, I guess. Okay, I want to move up the pyramid. But I have one sidebar question for you. Okay, this word trigger, I like have some like, some like things about this word trigger. It's kind of up there with self-care for me, marie, you know where it's like. I appreciate that people are that mental health is becoming more mainstream. People are that mental health is becoming more mainstream. I think that that does good things for all of us. But I also sort of feel like some of these things from our field are becoming something that they're I don't know. I just I'm rambling now. But this word trigger right, just I'm rambling now. But this word trigger right, like, how do you help people understand, like the heart of what we're talking about when we say a trigger?
Speaker 2:So this is interesting that you bring this up. So, like, what you're talking about is they become buzzwords like trigger and self-care. And I remember specifically when I was leaving grad school, I asked one of my professors, well, like, but what is self care? You know, like, what does that mean? Yeah, because you know, like, you get to know the answer sometimes after like, oh, you've had a hard day and blah, blah, blah. Oh well, you do self care and you get all the things. And I had to ask him and I think they can kind of become very nebulous, catch all terms, and I really take time with clients to break down, like, what does self-care look like for you? Because it's different for everybody, right? Some people, the self-care they need to work on is setting boundaries with their time. For some people, self-care is like physically taking care of themselves and like hydrating and eating and making time for that. And for some people it's, you know, taking their PTO. And for some people, whatever, it's different for everybody Trigger.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, this is something that when I was working in the world of substance use, I had a couple of people who were pretty treatment savvy, who were like, I don't believe in triggers. I think that's, you know, like they kind of in the in the vein of like I get it, they've been through this and they've they know the talk and all the things and honestly, I'm like you can call it whatever you want, but triggers are just feelings, that's it. Like that is what a trigger is. I'm having a feeling, and maybe it starts as a somatic feeling, maybe it starts as a thought, no-transcript, and I was like I would bet you every, every dollar in my bank account that it is.
Speaker 2:You are feeling discomfort or you're feeling, um, you know something that you used to run away from and use a substance to cope with, and that's all that is is this is normally when this feeling comes up, whether it's a ptsd thing or anxiety or just shame or whatever. Behind all of that, like old behavioral pattern stuff, is a feeling that you need to. You need now more skills to cope with. Yep, like I said, you can call it whatever you want. Yep, I love that.
Speaker 1:All right, tell us more about this middle and upper parts of your pyramid.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the middle part, so the bottom part, like I said, is very geared toward the somatic, like really shifting out of that. Um, like I said, is very geared toward the somatic, like really shifting out of that, like I said, sympathetic nervous system response, so like forcing the body to salivate and forcing the body's respiratory system to slow and the heart rate, and like really focusing on things like that Middle of the pyramid is a little bit more feelings focused, so like mid is a little bit more feelings focused. So like tapping, like the bilateral tapping, whether that's like the butterfly tapping or binaural beats, like that's a huge trend right now within, like the meditation space, I've noticed, is like the binaural beats, or like even just tapping back and forth on your legs, nice and slow. It's a little bit more mindfulness practice.
Speaker 2:So like things like five, four, three, two, one or the three by three, by three, or the sensory things, like your sense of touch, sense of smell, things to fidget with. Smell is important too. Like I think this is a big one because it's very, it can be very triggering and very grounding. Yeah, because it's, you know, one of our senses that's not filtered through the prefrontal cortex, so highly connected with memory and that can be used for good and for evil.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So like smells can be very so, it's really about bringing yourself into the present moment. That's what most of the the center of the pyramid is all about. Like sense of taste, touch you know of the pyramid is all about like sense of taste, touch, you know, all of that mindfulness type stuff, um, short bursts of exercise or movement. So I actually encourage people sometimes, like if you've just had a very intense experience, or like done something very stressful, like if you watch an animal after they've done been through something stressful, or even just for the heck of it, they'll give themselves a good shake. So, like I will sometimes like stand up and like just shake you, shake your hands out or shake your whole body, it doesn't matter. Or even more gentle forms of movement like stretching. So bringing mindfulness to the body. Some people will do things like you know, I just had a really stressful thing and I need to just get this energy off me and I'll go run, run the stairs a couple times or something like that. It just really depends. And then top of the pyramid is more of that cognitively focused thing. So like feelings, identification I am feeling, or I'm having the experience of stress, I'm having the experience of anxiety. It's okay that I'm having that allowed to have that, just noticing no judgment around it. You know mantras like this is anxiety, it's uncomfortable, it's not unsafe, or like that was a PTSD, that was the trauma response. But I'm in the present moment now and there is no danger. So like those like cognitively bringing ourselves into the moment and reassuring ourselves, for anxiety Sometimes it's the leaning into it. Um. So, like you know, for some people like myself, with like the overpasses as an example, like the intrusive thought I have is like I'm gonna lose control of the car and fall off the the overpass. And so part of what I do and I do this out loud, usually in the car, and it's kind of sometimes alarming to like the other people in the car who don't. If there's other people who don't know me, but at this point nobody's in my car that doesn't know me, so yeah, I'll be like okay, so if we're gonna fall off the overpass, like that's just what's gonna happen, like this is what we're doing. You know, it's very like top brain and like you say it out loud and it sounds so silly, but like that's what the intrusive thought is. But when you speak things, it also uses a different part of your brain than when you're just thinking it. Yep, and then I love the like the verbal brain dump, with a nervous system reset. So I will often do this where I lay down on the ground and either I do it back there a lot, there's like a little ottoman and I put my legs up on the ottoman and I will just do a verbal brain dump of like what is stressing me out. That was a really hard session, like you know, whatever it is. You know I'm irritated or angry about this or like I'm frustrated and feeling helpless or whatever. It is just like kind of that verbal brain dump.
Speaker 2:For some people it's, it's a writing. Writing is also a really great way. I always tell people like I, if you want to call it journaling, awesome. I struggle with the term journaling. Yeah, it feels like pressure to me and I have so many like little dead soldier unfinished journals all over my house and I hate it because I have ADHD and like I'll write in it for a week and then it's just whatever. But I do like to write and I am very visual. Sometimes it's creating a visual of all of the things like brain dumping out onto paper, and for sometimes it's it's not writing full sentences or worried about punctuation, sometimes it's making a bubble map of all the things that and just looking at it so that we can help process it in a different way. So I think it's really about, like you know, those different layers it's addressing are more like primal instinct, like fight or flight system, then the feelings and then like how are we processing it with our cognitive front brain?
Speaker 1:Okay, there's so many good things and I'm like, okay, we're, we, we're going to wrap up here in the next two minutes. So it's going to be like I'm going to take all of this and then just write down all my notes for the next time I see you. So earlier I was thinking about that other path, right, and this feels like the right time. So one of the things that I was thinking earlier on is okay. So one of the things that I will sometimes prescribe to clients is stop watching the news, stop scrolling, or find an appropriate time of your day when you have the time to like, crash out. I don't know, I'm not like my teenagers are saying this term crash out, right. So it's like, wait until you have, you know, an hour, just in case you need to crash out, like, and then that's when you do your scrolling, that's when you check the news, and so I will sometimes prescribe this.
Speaker 1:But then, even in my own life, I'll find that, you know, even if I don't watch the news or if I don't scroll, I show up to my workplace and people are talking about things, and talking about things through their sort of lens, which then is like, still something that causes an immediate reaction.
Speaker 1:You know, call it a trigger, whatever we're going to call it right, it causes my body to have that cue of this is uncomfortable, or I'm feeling, or I'm feeling anxious or whatever. And so I maybe want to end with your thoughts on these. Strategies are meant for even those tiny moments, the tiny moment when suddenly, you scrolled through and you saw a headline that you're like, oh my gosh, what does that mean for us? Or maybe you're in a meeting where they're talking about budget cuts secondary to some of the things that are happening, and then people are like freaking out in the break room and they're talking about what happens if I lose my job and I can't pay my bills, like, I guess, maybe let's end. When would a person be like? This is when I should use those things that Marie was talking about.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I just like I told my client I don't think there's too much of it that you can do and just like, just like you have been encouraging your clients to be mindful consumers of media and everything I often tell them, like if you walk away from a scroll and you're feeling any type of way, that's not like refreshed and happy and like I just looked at puppies and kittens and like I don't know what your algorithm has in there, yeah, but if you're walking away from, like, a news article or a meeting or a session or a scroll and you're kind of feeling off, that is the time to start using these things. And again, it doesn't have to take up 30 minutes of your day no-transcript steps into the theoretical.
Speaker 2:It's time to bring it back time. To bring it back time to address, like, the feeling that pushed you out there, which is usually fear, yep, and take care of yourself. Um, so to me, like there is no like wrong time to do a coping skill at this moment in history. I think that we can use them anytime and all the time, and it's it's probably going to be good for us yeah, I, I love you reminded us that it doesn't have to take a long time.
Speaker 1:I think you know it can be just a few seconds of a breath until you can get to having two minutes in the bathroom, or two minutes when you, you know, go back to your desk, or when you get in the car and you have, you know, a five minute, you know trip to the next place you got to go. Like those are all opportunities to try any of these things to keep your body regulated.
Speaker 2:Yes, and honestly I love that you brought up the car thing. One of my favorite things to do is, like, if you're feeling any type of way, find some music that matches that feeling and just sing as loud as you can in the car. Like the vibrations on the vocal cords will actually help regulate the nervous system and that's a great like.
Speaker 2:You know, if you're feeling like a little bit rebellious or whatever, like throw in some Joan Jett and like you know, let's rock it out, let yourself, yeah, or if you're feeling sad, throw in a sad song and just let yourself be sad for a little bit. You know like just vibe, and it can be. It can be as simple as that, like it doesn't have to be this big elaborate, that is one thing. Oh, coming full circle again, that is one thing that I learned in finance is that elaborate doesn't always mean sophisticated. So sometimes, like again those back to basics things like the simplest thing can be what we really need. It doesn't have to be this very complicated thing that we walk ourselves through. It can be as simple as I pop a sour candy and take a walk.
Speaker 1:Yep, okay, we've got zero minutes left. Tell people how they can find you, marie.
Speaker 2:So you can always find me on my website. It is mariesloancounselingcom. Not fancy at all. This resource that we referenced a lot today is available on the website. If you can't find it on the downloads, email me and I will send it to you.
Speaker 1:I'm so grateful for you. I mean all these things I wrote down. I have two pages of notes, I have several quotes that I just think are so good, like just such good words to just live by and remember, and I'm just so thankful you said yes to coming back again. So thank you for being here again and, yeah, listener, thank you for joining us this episode and until next time, stay safe, stay well, ciao.
