Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 134: What If You're Wrong About Your Relationship? with Rachel Elder
What if the way you've always approached relationships is fundamentally limiting your capacity for true connection? In this eye-opening conversation, psychologist, Dr. Beth Trammell, and licensed mental health counselor, Rachel Elder, challenge conventional wisdom about attachment, offering hope for even the most disconnected couples.
Elder, who specializes in relationship therapy through her practice Connected Couples Counseling, introduces a revolutionary framework that helps partners rewire their attachment styles from insecure to secure. She dismantles the common misconception that simply being together equals emotional connection, explaining that many couples "divide and conquer" their emotional experiences – turning to friends for some support, family for other needs, and leaving only certain aspects of themselves visible to their partners.
"I'm not dividing and conquering my emotional lived experience with my partner," Elder explains, offering a powerful alternative to the compartmentalized approach many of us unconsciously adopt. This profound shift requires both compassion for how we developed protective patterns and accountability to change them, creating relationships where partners truly feel safe, seen, and securely connected.
What sets this approach apart is its intensity and commitment to transformation. Unlike therapy models that simply validate relationship struggles, Elder's work challenges couples to immerse themselves in rewiring their connection through consistent, intentional practice. "We do two-hour sessions each week, and between sessions, you're doing three to five hours of rewiring with your partner," she shares, comparing the process to learning a new language through immersion.
The most liberating question throughout this journey? "What if you're wrong?" What if you're wrong that your relationship can't change, that you can't trust deeply, that emotional vulnerability isn't possible for you? This simple yet profound invitation to question our certainties opens the door to extraordinary growth and connection.
Ready to stop settling for a relationship that merely functions and create one that truly thrives? Listen now and discover how neuroplasticity can transform your capacity for love and connection.
Find more about Rachel at https://www.rachel-elder.com/
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
Hey listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel. I'm a psychologist and a person who just loves to encourage other people with making words matter for good. That's my philosophy. My intention every day is to try to use my words to matter for good in my own life and in my professional life. Sometimes I get it right and sometimes I don't, but you know, every day I keep on trying. I am really excited today because I think I'm going to learn some new stuff. I last week I recorded another episode where I learned a bunch of stuff from really smart cool people, and Rachel Elder is here again, another smart cool person who's going to teach us some things, talk about some things, and so I'm really excited about today. So, rachel, thanks for saying yes to being here again today. Introduce yourself for listeners and tell us something fun about you. That's going on right now.
Speaker 2:My name is Rachel Elder. I am a licensed mental health counselor and I see clients in Washington state and I have a small group practice. We're called Connected Couples Counseling. So we do all thing relationship, premarital, even, discernment counseling with people on the brink of divorce Anything you can think about relationships is our cup of tea. We have a clinical intern this year, which has been fun to pour into an intern and remember what that experience was like. And then I have one part-time employee who is doing all things couples with me, and so that's our little practice and the work we love doing and what we'll get to talk about more of today, because it's my world and it's it's what I love and something fun.
Speaker 2:I got this crazy idea that's not crazy, but just a spark of an idea last week to do a summer therapist panel series in Washington. I was at a networking meetup that was meant to be one-on-one and turned into a group, which was fun and just hearing people wanting community, as the therapy industry is being impacted in lots of ways, and I thought wouldn't it be cool to like get people who know what they're talking about to share their lived experience? And I, by Wednesday, had it up and running and was like I'm gonna do this. I have no idea if anybody wants to to come, you know, do this with me, but there's been great interest and it was just so fun to have a creative spark and idea that just flowed so swiftly. And so I guess that's my little fun fact about me is that I come up with ideas all the time and some of them are great. Some of them do not go anywhere, but this one it's going somewhere and I'm really excited for summer 2025.
Speaker 1:I am excited for you. I love that you are also like a dreamer and then a doer. Right, it's like okay, I just had this spur of an idea and now I'm just gonna like put it out there in the world and just see who responds. I just love that.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it's figuring out what to be the doer with. I have it now. My husband's like you just need an idea list. Just write them down and the ones you can't shake, maybe you go with those ones. So I had an idea the other day and he's like write it down.
Speaker 1:Let's not pursue that one quite yet. Let's put that on the idea list. Yes, yeah, that's actually probably good advice.
Speaker 2:Yes, or I would do everything and never do anything. Well, yeah, just smart man right there.
Speaker 1:Yes, I actually just recorded an episode with Leanna Purgis about discernment counseling, and that was something that I hadn't heard of, and so it was really great. Uh, it just aired last week actually, and for listeners it's going to be several weeks ago. But yeah, I just think there's so many different ways to work in therapy, and so I'm so glad that, you know, our field is continuing to figure out new ways and adjust to kind of the changes that are happening in the world. I just feel like we're kind of constantly still trying to figure out how to help people as the world changes, and so we're going to talk about another way to do that today, or kind of a way of conceptualizing things or understanding people, and I'm excited.
Speaker 1:So attachment is something that's been around for a long, long time, and so can we maybe just start with, like, when we talk about attachment, what are we kind of talking about? And whether you want to bring it all the way back to Mary Ainsworth or not, but just sort of how do we understand relationships through this sense of attachment? And then we can kind of talk more about neuroplasticity and how that intersects, but just sort of like a basic understanding of both of these topics might be a good thing to refresh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to try to do the best of my ability because learning this and researching it and understanding it, I'm still like the best of my ability because learning this and researching it and understanding it, I'm still like what's the elevator?
Speaker 2:pitch of attachment theory yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I do with the couples I work with is most of our work is about rewiring their attachment style with one another to secure attachment, and we like to simplify it. There are four attachment styles but we like to say you either have secure or insecure. The reality is most of us develop insecure attachment because we have parents who aren't perfect and we just didn't have as much research about vulnerability and co-regulation and all of that until the last 10, 20, 30 years. That's been in our face a lot more. So when I'm talking about attachment theory with my couples or individuals, we're really looking at how do we go from the insecure attachment, which is how we either learn to adapt to survive in relationship and connection, or our self protections that came from our lived experiences of leaning on others and being hurt, or looking for connection and what worked, what didn't, and how do we have compassion for how those originated, where they come from, but then take accountability to take steps to move towards developing that secure attachment with our partner. So, whether you're paired up with someone or you're seeking to be paired up, you're paired up with someone or you're seeking to be paired up we are all wired to bond with one person. We are wired to find that person that we can lean on and depend on, to feel safe and seen with, and that's what we're trying to help rewire with couples who are together or individuals who are seeking to find that partnership of what is true secure attachment.
Speaker 2:And with that, a lot of people might put themselves in the category of secure attachment because they feel stable, and what we are taking is that stability is important, but we also need that emotional connection, that emotional depth in the relationship that truly gives us secure attachment. So, if you're stable, amazing. But do you have that ability to truly be vulnerable, to truly lean and depend on your partner emotionally, or are you dividing and conquering emotionally with your partner? I bring this to you, but this topic about parenting I go to others, for we really want this piece of you turn towards your partner through all things the easy conversations, the harder conversations and you're both modeling. I want you to be safe with me, I want you to feel seen with me and we're helping. We bring neuroplasticity in of this fact that we can rewire. We are not stuck, we're not fixed in our ways. We can grow and change. It's a choice we all make, and it's not only one partner has to have the growth mindset.
Speaker 2:It's that both partners have the growth mindset to develop that secure attachment with one another develop that secure attachment with one another.
Speaker 1:Great, I love this overview. So I think back to some clinical work that I did with couples around. You know this idea of emotional connection and I remember many couples really struggling with like really understanding what this means. You know it's like on a logical sense, I kind of understand what you mean by emotional connection, but I remember a partner saying like we're always together, rachel, we are obviously connected.
Speaker 2:Nope, yeah, I know that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1:So how do you help couples really understand this idea of emotional connection, especially if they're kind of in that mindset that it's like, well, we're always together, of course we're connected?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I've talked about this in previous episodes with you, but, like, intimacy is more than just physical right, so always being around your partner is great, but the mental and emotional is really important too. So I like to think about. You have a really hard day at work and you think about, like I need to talk with someone, I need to process. It Is the first thought, like you know what, I know who to call and it's my partner. They're going to know how to support me, they're going to know how to empathize and validate with me and they're also going to help me grow through this, which is that accountability piece. Or is your thought I'm going to call my mom or my best friend or anybody else, because you know, my partner just doesn't get it.
Speaker 2:They just when I talk about it, their eyes gloss over, get it. They just when I talk about it, their eyes gloss over. They're so distracted with their own stuff in life. I just I can't burden them, I can't bring this to them. And that emotional connection is that piece of when I'm going through something, whether it's the most amazing moments of my life or some of the most painful, I know my partner's got me and I'm going to turn to them for support, for guidance, for emotional connection, for empathy, for validation, because they truly have me. They are holding that space with me, they see me, they get me and I trust it. And so it's so hard Like I think giving examples helps a lot, but that's like a common one. Most of us are in working, both partners are working, but it's this idea of I'm not dividing and conquering my emotional lived experience from my partner.
Speaker 1:Wait, we're going to say that again.
Speaker 2:I'm not dividing and conquering my emotional lived experience with my partner. So dividing and conquering tasks right, like who's taking the kids to school today Totally great, totally valid, totally needed in life. But I don't divide and conquer my emotionally lived experience of my day and say, you know, my mom gets to know this part of me, but my husband doesn't. Or my husband gets to know all these parts of me, but these three parts, nope, he doesn't get to know. It's that all of me gets to be held and seen and turned towards with my partner in my case my husband and we all have these protectives of like ooh, last time I brought this up with him, he just didn't listen very well. He tried to problem solve or he just didn't get it, and that felt terrible. So instead of bringing that to him, like my mom, I talk to my mom daily. I'm just going to call my mom instead, or I'm going to call my friend, because they just support me so much better.
Speaker 2:That can be true, but we want to have that growth mindset of okay, while this might feel true, I don't want it to be true.
Speaker 2:I want what my mom or my friend does to be what my husband does with me too, and so, instead of dividing that from him and just saying like he's just never going to get it, having a fixed mindset of who he is or how he's going to be, I'm going to stay in the arena.
Speaker 2:So, bringing in Brene Brown's vulnerability, I'm going to stay in the arena with him and say this hasn't gotten well in the past and I want it to go better. I want to lean on you, I want to depend on you, I want to feel safe with you in all areas. So I'm not going to give up easily, even though that would be easier to do. I'm going to work to develop this with you. I want to have a growth mindset that we can have this together. I want to have a growth mindset that you can develop this with me and that we're going to get there. And it may be a little rocky, it might take lots of trial and error, but we are going to develop this and we're going to lean on each other fully in all areas.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love this I have In my mind. I'm thinking about folks who are skeptical about this saying of like your partner doesn't have to be everything to you know, no one person can be everything to everyone or some version of whatever that saying is right, that it's like okay, well, I should divide and conquer my emotional experience so that I don't burden my partner, and so how do you help those folks that are kind of more skeptical? Or maybe they were raised with this mindset of, yeah, you should have girlfriends to talk about girlfriend things and you should go to your partner with some of these other things or whatever. How do you help folks?
Speaker 2:understand it. Yeah, I think we get a lot of objections. Yeah, right, process that we do with individuals and couples, because we've all learned to adapt right, it's not safe to lean on one person. Or I watched my parents divide and conquer, so why would I do something different? Like it seemed like it worked for them. We all have really great coping mechanisms of why we believe or think or engage in the way we do in relationships and so a lot of times we're we kind of join them. I'm like, yeah, why would you do this? Like tell me kind of I know there's like a term for that in the therapy world but really like, yeah, you're right. Like why would you just lean on one person? Like what, what's the benefit of that, what's the con of that? Walk me through that. And we're doing that to help kind of understand how they learned to cope with what they lived through.
Speaker 2:And then we pull in that research of attachment. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And attachment theory is there that says we are wired to bond with one person, we are wired for connection and you've done a really great job of convincing yourself that you can get by without it. Kudos, you're surviving. And why wouldn't you pursue this for yourself, right? Why do you have fixed mindset that you are the one person who was not created this way? And in our line of work, like we call it, like, figure out the levers that get them to open up to their own growth mindset process. And the most simplified version is we're like are you open to being wrong? Like, would you be open to exploring this in a different way? Would you let me like, let's just try that on, try that hat on for the session. Let's just be open to being wrong about everything you believed and thought and let's explore what life would be like if you were wrong. What would life be like if you could lean on your partner fully and you know they've got your back and you feel safe and seen? Walk me through how you would live your life. How would you feel, how would you be, how would you interact with other people and kind of helping them access even an opportunity to explore what that might be like can then interest into the next step of like. So what if we took a step to developing that? But so many people don't even do that first step right.
Speaker 2:I don't want to be wrong, I'd rather be right, so I'm going to stay here, right. That's just not going to work for me. It works that I go to Susie for XYZ and my partner for this and my parents for this, and it works for me. And I'm not pushing against. I'm like, yeah, it has been working for you, but is it your most authentic, true self? Like, is this truly what you want, that you get to go here for this and here for this? Wouldn't it be amazing to have a secure base with one person in your life that you know? If all these other people disappeared, you've got me. We want all those people, right, we want a community of support. That's amazing and we do need that, but we want your partner to be the person that you go. This is who I need to turn to immediately. They got me and all these other people are supporting me in that process, but we've got one another. So that's how we kind of try to join them in it, but navigate the objections they have of like this just won't work for me.
Speaker 2:Yep, and part of what I'm pulling from is from the relationship theory model. That's what I'm doing with couples and individuals, and so a phrase from Jordan Blue, who is the creator of it. She says, like you're special, but not that special. You're not the one person this isn't going to apply to. If you truly believe that, that's your choice. But my work is to help you see how you are either sabotaging or blocking yourself from having this beautiful relationship with your partner or, in the future, for yourself. And I'm not going to buy it because I don't believe it and I don't think you wanted to work with me to believe what you believe.
Speaker 1:I mean, even just this little bit is probably so powerful for couples if they can be open, if they can have that growth mindset to be able to ponder are you open to being wrong? Yeah, you're special, but not that special Like this isn't. You're not the person who's experiencing it this way, and you're not the only person. I'm curious about how you either differentiate or see overlap or how do you talk about these sort of these ideas within couples. Right, so we have this idea of safety, we have this idea of security and stability, and so when you think about those three sort of terms and their importance to kind of healthy relationships, how do you, you know, what do you talk about as being most important? Or maybe they're all important, but safety, security, stability.
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I think my instinct says, like security is the most important piece, because it encapsulates both of those right To have that secure attachment. You are stable, you feel safe, but that key part of your scene as well and so I think that's the most important is really understanding what secure attachment is, what that feels like, what it looks like, because then that helps open your awareness of oh, maybe I'm not as secure as I thought. Hey, that's an opportunity of I got work to do and I have an opportunity to create something even more amazing than what I have. Sign me up.
Speaker 2:When you have that growth mindset, some people are like, no, no, I'm very content and I'm happy. Please do not burst my bubble and you know we all have our ways of adapting and coping. But helping yourself understand what that secure attachment can look like, feel like, be like how you interact in the world when you have that, it shows like stability is a part of that, but that safety piece they go hand in hand Trust is a part of it. So I think that's the most important piece to really wrap your head around and understand what you're working towards. That's the feeling that we want to be experiencing 24 seven. And it becomes the experience that when it's off, you say okay, I know what I can do to get back there. I know what accountability I need to take to grow and change and shift in my partnership.
Speaker 1:Well, I love what you said earlier, to like approaching what you're kind of learning with compassion and accountability. So you know, being I was picturing like if you only stop with compassion and you don't move to accountability, I hear a lot of folks that are like, well, you know, this is just who I am, or this is just how I was raised, or this is just what I think is right, and compassion plus accountability says I can accept this is how I was raised. And I also hear this person that I love saying it's not working and so how can I be accountable to wanting to be something different? Is that kind of what you mean with compassion, accountability?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think just this concept is what like. As therapists, we have to continue education and learn and there's just so many things we can learn and getting trained in this model. This concept was like what really sold me. I was doing the training, I was like I know attachment theory, I know neuroplasticity Like that's not new to me. But it was the structuring of the sessions and these concepts that this one really sold me of like, oh my gosh, this, this is going to be pivotal and I love it's my favorite session to teach couples when we get to it.
Speaker 2:But that piece of you can't just have one or the other, you have to have both. And if you're in relationship it has to be flowing back and forth between you and your partner. So it's compassion for my coping and adaptations and the ways I've learned to protect, to survive. It's also compassion for my partners. So, even if I don't fully get what they've lived through that, I have compassion for how they learn to adapt and survive and protect. And from there then we step into accountability accountability to myself that I want to be a partner that is, has safety and allows a partner to be seen, who's developing secure attachment. And accountability for my partner requests that they're going to help me in XYZ area, and just this idea that it's flowing back and forth constantly is what's producing that change.
Speaker 2:I always like to add a third part of compassion is great. Accountability is needed, but we have to make the choice. We can actually have both of those and it be flowing and still not make the choice to act on the accountability, and that's truly where the change comes. So it's compassion, accountability and taking the chance to change and taking the action yeah, because I can tell you like I'm going to be accountable to you. Yeah, and you can say that to me, but it's the, it's that taking the chance to change and taking action on that that really helps us grow and develop into that secure attachment.
Speaker 1:So you were kind of doing this like back and forth thing with your hands about this flow of back and forth right, and I'm picturing folks who are like gosh, relationships are already hard enough. This sounds like so much work, rachel. How do you help people understand that relationships are hard work, to kind of continue to be intentional, continue to be open-minded and compassion, accountable, take action, be able to be courageous and taking a risk, perhaps in learning something new or taking a new approach that might be leaning toward? How does it? How do you help folks like not become overwhelmed with this right where it sounds like, oh my gosh, it's so much work, I gotta retrain. You know it's so much easier just to you know, adapt, survive, protect. It's just easier to do that.
Speaker 2:Let's just keep the status quo versus it sounds like so much extra trying yeah, we like to pull in, uh, the Bronx research study, which they studied men from Harvard, men from the Bronx, to figure out, like what were they saying made their life successful? Was it their career, how much finances they had, and what they found, with both sides of the study, is that it was the quality of relationships. Both sides of the study is that it was the quality of relationships. So our belief is that the quality of the relationships in your life are the most important, and so that means you will have to work. It will not always be easy. We don't believe that it's a soulmate that you're looking for. We believe soulmates are created. It's that growth mindset of if it's meant to be. It's up to me. I will work on it and develop it, and so we use that as our basis.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, relationships are hard work, and what I'm asking you to do and the work that you're going to do with me to develop secure attachment. It's not easy and I'm upfront with people. We do two hour sessions each week, and I'm up front with people. We do two hour sessions each week and between sessions, you're doing three to five hours of rewiring with your partner each week. It's very intensive. It's like learning a new language. The best way to learn a new language is to take yourself to that environment and immerse yourself in it, and that's what we're doing here. You don't have to do this. There are plenty of other relationship models that you can engage with, and I'm not shaming them, but this is different.
Speaker 2:If you really want to create this relationship that stands out, that has your back feel so secure, has so much trust and love and connection, this is for you and I don't get to make that choice for you.
Speaker 2:I see that you're here for a reason and I'd love to walk you through it. It's your choice, just like it's your choice to live in disconnection with your partner or to live in this divide and conquering dynamic. You have all these choices before you and you are the one who's deciding what kind of life you want to live. So if that's the choice you want to make for yourself, go for it. Like I'm not here to tell you that it's right or wrong, but I am here to open a new door to you and say this can be different and it's amazing. I've seen couples do it. I have walked through it and it's amazing and I don't want to go back through the door Like I want to go back through the door, like I want to live in this reality because it's so life-giving, and I'd love to open you up to that, if that's your choice.
Speaker 1:I think about the way our society is kind of moving toward, you know, just getting out of the daily grind and trying to move toward doing things that are perhaps radical in their family of origin or maybe radical in kind of the approach that typically they've taken. You know, maybe it's they're quitting their nine to five job to pursue something else that brings them real joy. And I kind of got that flavor when you were just kind of talking that it's like, look, there's nothing wrong per se with what's happening in the relationship you're in. Maybe, and if you are ready to dig in, do some stuff that's going to disrupt the relationship dynamic that you're in, this may be a good model.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the way we like to put it like if you want to pay me as your therapist to just empathize and validate the pains you have in your relationship, we can do that. Or the way that I prefer to work and love working is to do that in addition to let's do something about it, let's change it. Let's not just sit and accept that this is our reality and I want to do that work with you. And I tend to refer people to other therapists who are doing that and it's not wrong. It's just that's not life giving to me. I'm in this because I want to change the divorce statistic. I would love to see that go to a ridiculously probably unrealistic number, but I want to change it. I don't want to see that go to a ridiculously probably unrealistic number, but I want to change it. I don't want to see it keep growing. I want to get to this place of wait a minute.
Speaker 2:No, this does not have to be truth and reality and this concept. We all believe that, as we get married, if 10 of my friends and I get married in the same year, that the likelihood of us all being in a healthy, connected, committed relationship five years from now is 50% and 10 years later like 20%? No, like, I don't. If you want to live in that world, that's great for you, but that does not work for me and I think it's just helping people get out of their own way.
Speaker 2:That's the phrase we use Like I'm not interested in you sabotaging anymore. I get why you're doing it, I have that compassion, but I will hold you accountable and that's why this process is different. That's why it is immersive, that's why it is maybe a little bit more intensive than what you thought you might be signing up for when it came to couples therapy, but I'm in this work to change you and might be signing up for when it came to couples therapy, but I'm in this work to change you and I believe you can change. Do you want to join me on that? And if you don't, that's okay. There's so many modalities, there's so many therapists. This is how I work and this is who I am.
Speaker 1:I am reminded of.
Speaker 1:I just recorded an episode on burnout with Oral Roberts Meese and she was talking about kind of these different areas of life and how we really need to be intentional about doing something and in every area of life, every day, towards self-care or towards reducing burnout, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:And I remember thinking, wowza, it's kind of a lot. And I even reflected and I shared during the episode that well, yeah, I mean, if you've gotten to the point of burnout, you can't just use like a baby aspirin. It's like you've got to really dig in, you got to really work a little bit harder than just hey, I just have this little baby aspirin that I'm going to take and think it's going to fix my like you know, or I'm in couples counseling and things have been a real struggle. I wonder if it's a similar sort of analogy, right that this is more like hey, you need like a stronger dose of medicine, you need a stronger dose of therapy to get the ship turned around. And then maybe, when your ship is out to sea and you're on the right path and your destination is on the horizon and you can see where you're headed, then maybe you need a lower dose of therapy or lower dose of medicine. I don't know, is that a fair analogy?
Speaker 2:I think so. I mean, my brain goes so many different directions with this. But I think that first part is like if something's not working, you are not helpless. Yeah, that's good, you have a choice to do something different. But so many times we're looking for instant gratification If we go to therapy. I love couples, I love this work Sometimes, when I sometimes want to shake them like, oh my goodness, just coming to one session isn't going to change the pain and the hurt and whatever's been going on.
Speaker 2:It's going to take time and energy, it's going to take investment. And so if you're looking for instant gratification, I say this wholeheartedly divorce is going to be easier, right? Or just sticking out with what you have To change this pattern is going to be hard work and it's not going to happen instantly. It's going to take work from both of you. It doesn't just mean come to a session with Rachel and it's all going to be fixed in one to two hours. No, it didn't take one to two hours to get here. So it's not going to take one to two hours once a week, every other week, to change.
Speaker 2:So I think we're in this society that's recognizing like this instant gratification pursuit has not worked as well as we thought. So I think there's that piece, but I think it's this helplessness. People are like but I'm going to therapy or I'm working out or we're doing XYZ Amazing. But what's next? Yeah, I'm not saying that these don't work, but how are you showing up at therapy? How are you showing up at your workouts? How are you showing up on date night Like, are you changing? Are you holding yourself accountable to do the work? And that's why I love what I do. We've met previously where I worked in different models and they were great. But this work allows me to be really direct and challenging with couples and saying, like, how come you didn't do your homework or your rewiring this week? Like, what got in the way? I want to understand it so we can work and make this realistic.
Speaker 2:But if it's the well, I was waiting for him to take initiative or for her to start. I'm like, okay, why, like? Why are you here? Are you here just for them to do all of the work? Because if that's the case, we should probably just wrap this up right now. This is not going to work. You got to be here, invested in yourself, because you want this as much as they want it. We're not just here to wait for them to change. You're here because you want something different for yourself and they want something different for themselves, and you're going to create something different together. And so I think people are just not invested in their lives in the way that they need to be to really benefit from therapy, and I think part of it is therapists too. We need to remind ourselves we are the expert in the room. We are not the expert of them, but in my case, I am the expert on attachment, neuroplasticity and couples counseling.
Speaker 2:And I forget where you. You don't do burnout. You do some, but your other guest speaker right, they are the expert on burnout. When their client comes in and is like that's not going to work for me, to actually like, okay, well, let's be open to being wrong. What if you tried it for three weeks? And in three weeks, if this is not working for you, please come tell me I'm wrong.
Speaker 2:I welcome it, but you did come here for a reason. You came here to do something different, to get support, to get guidance, and I'd like to do that. Can you give me the chance? Will you let me influence you a little bit? Will you be open to trying it, and I think sometimes it's been communicated like clients will grow and change. When they're ready, you just sit and you listen.
Speaker 2:Maybe some of that's true, but I think we have forgotten the power we have of wait a minute. We studied this, we've invested time and energy. Let's be experts and let's own that in the room and not be afraid to gently confront people of why are you here? I have great hopes and visions for you, but what about you? And how do we work better together? Because this doesn't work for me. It does not work for me that you keep coming in and paying me to fight in session Like that's an expensive fight. Do you want to do that? And it sounds very direct, like challenging, but there's some humor behind it, like you came to do something differently. Let's do it. I'm invested in that. Let me do it differently with you. Let me be the expert and show you there's a different way of living and being.
Speaker 1:So I love all this and I think, as I think about some of my past therapy days I remember having some conversations similarly that it's like hey, you know, I know that the things that I'm asking aren't easy to do, and I also know that I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't continue to try to push you and try to hold you accountable to those things that you're saying you want, right, Like I'm not setting your goals, things that you're saying you want right, Like I'm not, I'm not setting your goals.
Speaker 1:I'm not the one who's, you know, requiring these things. As your therapist, I'm just here to sort of like encourage you and guide you along the way to the things that you're saying you want. But I think to what you said, it's easy in our sort of like in this day and age to just be like, yeah, we went home after session and everything just sort of went back to you know, I'm putting it in air quotes like went back to the way it was right. It's like in this two hours that I'm with you, yes, we're invested, we're doing it, but I think we are like sort of programmed to just go back to the path of least resistance, and so I can imagine it is something that people need training, even on the front end, to be like, yeah, like this is going to feel way harder than what you're doing now, because we're programmed to go back to the path of least resistance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we repeat what's familiar. You're coming in here and I'm saying do something different. Your brain is going oh no, that's scary. Why would I do that? No, therapy is supposed to be a safe space. I'm going to do the things that feel safe. Yeah, really, confronting of it feels safe because it's familiar, but it's not that true safety. Right, what we're asking you to do is to step into true safety, and it's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to be awkward, it's going to take repetition to really develop it. Well, you're not going to be instantly great at it, but if you stick with it, you're going to see the results. You're going to see the shift, you're going to see the change, but it's yeah, it's not super comfortable to lean on a partner. That's not what you've been doing. Like it's not familiar, it's not what you know, but that doesn't mean it's bad and wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, boy, okay. So we could talk about this for a long time, but any kind of last thoughts you have about this before we kind of wrap up, I guess.
Speaker 2:I would just challenge like, if individuals or couples are listening, be open to being wrong. I think that's been key to my whole process of getting trained in this model and doing this work is it really does make you walk the talk and talk the walk. I'm open to being wrong, even for myself. Like my husband and I, we watch this training process that couples do before they start the work with me. And even sitting on the couch together and he was like we're like a secure couple and in my body I'm internally going, no, we're not. I connect with so much of this. And even asking him, like what if you were wrong? Like I'm not trying to be defensive, or like stir the pot, like would you be open to being wrong about that? Because the reality is I don't feel that and I think it's just a really helpful phrase in just any part of life like what if I'm wrong? That that the way my friend said okay in a text message doesn't mean that they hate me and don't want to be friends with me.
Speaker 2:Or what if I'm wrong that I can't do five push-ups? What if I just tried it? What if I'm wrong that I am just not good at xyz? And what if I'm just not good at X, y, z, and what if I'm actually really good at it? Like if we actually started to work against ourselves? We would take more risks and we would be seeing a part of ourselves that's either been hidden or we've never discovered, and so I just, I guess I would challenge people. What if you're wrong? What if you're wrong that this is just a marriage you're going to have the rest of your life? What if you're wrong that you're never going to find that partner? What if you're wrong that you're a bad parent? What's the other side of that and what do you want to do to make that a reality?
Speaker 1:I love that we are sort of ending with that, because I think it is just such a powerful game changer really. It can be like it can be a game changer, a relationship changer, if we can just pause there and then the rest of the work we continue to pick up from there. So I love that. So, Rachel, tell folks how they can find you and follow you and all the work you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, our website is connectedcouplescounselingcom. We're on Instagram at connected couplesing. Those are the best ways to follow along, see what we're doing. If people are wanting to work in the relationship theory model, I do it as a therapist in Washington State and I also work with the relationship theory team as a coach so they can reach out to relationshiptheorycom if they're interested in learning more too.
Speaker 1:Amazing, amazing. Thank you for continuing to evolve, and it sounds like you at some point had to ask yourself what if I'm wrong in the other way that I used to treat people, and so I am so grateful that you asked that question, followed that nudge, and are continuing to do this great work in your community. So thank you for saying yes, listener, thank you for being a part of today's conversation. I hope you took some nuggets that you can walk away with, and even I will sort of put this as my posted by my bathroom mirror to say what if I'm wrong today? Because I think I could even use a strong dose of that medicine as well in my daily life. So thank you for that. Ciao, everyone.
