Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 139: Breaking the Silence: How Modern Men Navigate Emotional Challenges with Dr. Tim Hess
What happens when traditional masculinity meets modern mental health needs? Dr. Tim Hess, licensed psychologist and Associate Director for Clinical Services at Ball State University's Counseling Center, joins Dr. Beth Trammell to unpack the complex world of men's mental health in this thought-provoking conversation.
From the moment Dr. Hess introduces his metaphor of "deciding when to stop yelling at the tsunami and start surfing," listeners are drawn into a nuanced exploration of how masculinity scripts shape men's emotional lives. Drawing from his extensive experience working with college-age men, Tim reveals how traditional Western masculinity ideologies—focused on achievement, emotional control, and independence—continue to influence how men perceive themselves and their emotional needs, even as these scripts evolve across generations.
One of the most powerful insights emerges when discussing romantic relationships: many young men place all their emotional eggs in one relationship basket, leaving them devastated and without support when that relationship ends. This leads to the profound observation that "the moment you need a friend is not the moment to build friendship"—a universal truth that resonates far beyond the realm of men's mental health.
Throughout the episode, Dr. Trammell and Dr. Hess navigate the delicate balance of recognizing patterns in masculine socialization while honoring individual differences. They explore how therapy provides a safe space for vulnerability, the challenges men face in building meaningful friendships, and the often-undiscussed impact of body image and sexual performance concerns on men's self-perception.
Whether you're a mental health professional, someone who identifies as male, or simply interested in understanding how gender expectations shape emotional wellbeing, this conversation offers valuable insights into creating more supportive environments where vulnerability is welcomed rather than stigmatized. Join us for this engaging discussion and tune in next week when Dr. Hess returns to tackle the increasingly relevant topic of self-diagnosis.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
Hey listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel. I am a psychologist. I love talking to other amazing therapists and psychologists, and our guest today is both an amazing psychologist and an amazing friend, and so I am grateful that our guest said yes to being here again. We have so many ideas, and so we're going to share two of our ideas that we've had over the years. Kind of chatting about a variety of you just called them tsunamis. Before we pushed record, you called them tsunamis and I kind of like that.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, so hi, I'm Tim, and yes, hi this is Tim y'all.
Speaker 1:Dr Tim Hess is here Well you know, hi, hi.
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like I'm supposed to do my intro, but what I'll say about the tsunami thing, like I think there are changes in the profession, right, and sometimes I feel like, as somebody who was trained like I did my doc training in the 2000s and so I was trained to see the profession a certain way it's changing and so sometimes I feel like I have to decide how long do I yell at the tsunami before I start surfing?
Speaker 2:Because, like it's coming, it's gonna gonna hit, and so I just have to learn how to surf, um anyway, so yeah, so that's why some of them feel like tsunamis sometimes oh, I love.
Speaker 1:I mean we could have a whole episode on. You know, when do I decide to keep yelling, screaming at the tsunami? When do I decide to learn? This is what you said. You said learn, yes, surf, okay, we're gonna. We're gonna put a pin in that and I'm gonna put a little star next to it that says dr tim has is coming back to talk about this metaphor sure except I can't spell tsunami without pausing tsunami while I'm writing. Tsunami, can you tell?
Speaker 1:us something Tell us about you and then tell us something fun about you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so thanks for having me back, Beth. My name is Tim Hess, my pronouns are he and him. I'm a licensed psychologist in the state of Indiana and I work at the Ball State University Counseling Center. And just to be clear, Beth is my friend right, and so I'm not a representative of my office or the university today, but here at the university I'm the Associate Director for Clinical Services, which means I kind of oversee and manage the clinical system. So the time a student calls and wants to begin care through their experience here, I'm kind of like watching the system and watching how the system is working, and so I like that and so that's fun for me.
Speaker 2:I got my undergrad from Taylor University here in Indiana in psychology, my master's from Ball State in counseling, which is where I met Beth, and my doctorate in counseling psychology from Arizona State University and then did my final doctoral internship at Penn State University's Counseling Center. Ball State was my first job after graduating, so I'm really trained as a generalist and have kind of spent my career specializing in college mental health Quick plug, it's super fun work y'all Like if any of you are looking for a job, a change in a job college mental health Quick plug. It's super fun work y'all Like. If any of you are looking for a job, a change in a job. College mental health is the jam Surf, that tsunami. The metaphor really doesn't work there.
Speaker 2:Things that I like, though in counseling centers I like doing research in counseling centers, group therapy, men's issues, working with international students, working with religion and spirituality, and therapy, identity development, relationship concerns. More important about me I'm married. My wife and I have three kids. I like Disney, I like Harry Potter, I like Star Wars, I like Lego, I like tea. My fun fact is I am learning to solve a Rubik's Cube and I'm super close. Beth, I'm getting there. I'm getting there.
Speaker 1:My gosh, have you watched YouTube videos?
Speaker 2:So my son does this and so, because he does this, I am now learning to do some of these things. And there are YouTube videos. I watched a YouTube video and it teaches like pattern recognition and algorithm, like that's kind of what it is, and so so, yeah, so like I'm, you know, that's what I'm it is and so so, yeah, so like I'm you know, that's what I'm learning. So so, yeah, it's kind of fun that is fun.
Speaker 1:And you know, my um, our oldest son, he, that's what he did. He kind of gets in these, he's got a little bit of his mama in him where he gets kind of hyper focused on certain things and, uh, he taught himself how to solve the Rubik's Cube. You know, I feel like a COVID thing Maybe. I think COVID was the time that he kind of took on learning that and he could still do it now, five years later. He can still just pick it up and do it Good, good.
Speaker 2:It's a good party trick.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know how to solve a Rubik's Cube, so maybe you know the next time you come on that can be your fun fact that you have solved it and you know how to do it.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, I could. I could solve it on audio podcast, which would be the most boring two to three minutes of airtime you've ever had 15 seconds.
Speaker 1:Maybe you'll be like those, like real, real.
Speaker 2:Rubik's cubers oh yes, oh yes, they're legit, they are legit. I have seen some of them and they are legit.
Speaker 1:I don't. It doesn't. It blows my mind really.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I always appreciate our conversations and I am really interested in this conversation today about men's mental health. I know that it is an area of focus for you and I think it is something that this issue kind of becomes an on again, off again issue for folks who aren't like living and breathing it the way that you probably are, and so I don't know like, where are things at now with kind of men's mental health? What are the things that are kind of on the radar?
Speaker 2:Good, question and so I think you know men's mental health kind of started in the 70s. Like APA, the American Psychological Association, has a whole division on men's mental health that started in the 70s and so they've been doing this for decades and they do like several free webinars every year for anybody and so, like for me I didn't really have any specialized training in men's mental health. That's something I kind of have learned on my own as I have gone and I identify as a man, I identify as a cisgender man, so like I have my lived experience as well in space as a man. But you know, the competence piece and lived experience are different.
Speaker 2:It does feel like with men's mental health right and with any research, there's always greater within-group difference than between-group difference and a lot of the research is cis, male, white, heterosexual, traditional, western focus.
Speaker 2:That's where I think a lot of most of it is, and so I think there is, it is becoming more diverse and inclusive, which is good. That's what we need in all areas of research and I think there are some pieces in some of the quote unquote traditional things that we have learned about men where we don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's still some important pieces there for a lot of men, because a lot of men who are currently living have grown up in the sea of Western American masculinities. So, yeah, so I don't know if that actually answers your question, beth, but kind of, in thinking about where are things at and what's going on, I think we are learning more and more also recognizing, right like the average man is no one and yet these things can still be helpful to us, and working with men in therapy and, just you know, living and being around men in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I want to come back to what you said because in case somebody is sort of needing the bring it back version. When we talk about research, we often talk about what you said was there are greater within group differences than between group differences, and so when you describe that to a person who doesn't have any research background at all, how would you put that to the lay person?
Speaker 2:So everything's on a spectrum, right, and so we have this. The research would say there's this traditional masculine idea that men should be independent, right, and if you survey a thousand men, you will find a broad range of levels of independence. And so, on average, yes, men probably are socialized, are encouraged, are raised, are supported, are indoctrinated to be independent. And that ain't every man, right, like that's not me all the time, right, and so I think that's what I think about that in discussions around any like identity or diagnosis. It's not a monolith, and so that always feels like that's an important piece to say out loud.
Speaker 2:And that also doesn't mean that we know nothing, right, that doesn't mean that well, everybody's so much of an individual that we can know nothing about anyone. You know I'm a big fan of paradox in therapy. Right, two things can be true that do not fit together well, and that often feels like one of those.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are kind of broadening our understanding that not no two men are exactly alike, but it also doesn't mean that we don't have a place to start in terms of sort of drawing inferences around key issues that may occur in men's mental health For sure. So what are some of those things that we see a lot in terms of kind of key things in men's mental health? Good question.
Speaker 2:And I think for me, you know I also feel like owning because my career has been in college mental health. I also see men at a very interesting time in their life and so you know I have men in my life across the age span right as well, so I also have my experiences with them. But a lot of my therapy work has been with kind of the traditional age college student which, like is super fun work. It is such an age of transition and becoming, and especially with men, looking at these kinds of things, like a lot of it is what are the scripts you've been given about being a man and like how's that working for you? And like, what do you want to do about that? So for me, when I think about, like, the term masculinity masculinities are really just scripts that we've been given about how to be a man quote unquote a man in space. It has shifted across time, Like if you asked my grandfather about masculinities, he probably would cock his head to the side and not really know what you're talking about, but had a script of being a man and my dad does and I do and my son does, and the scripts have changed across time and we still see some things showing up. So a lot of like the very traditional Western masculinity ideologies are focus on achievement, focus on emotional control, focus on anti-femininity, focus on sometimes kind of homophobia and reinforcing those ideas too, and so those are very culturally defined, but those show up even for college students in the work.
Speaker 2:I think one of the biggest trends I've seen lately in my work is men coming to therapy and the reason they're coming to therapy is because they're having romantic partner issues.
Speaker 2:So I can't get a partner, I can't keep a partner, my partner broke up with me, I can't get over my partner and in some ways that doesn't feel super traditional, masculine, right, like the ideology would be we are independent, we are strong, you can hear my voice, like taking it on right, we aren't affected by these things.
Speaker 2:And yet I think the reality is for many young men they see their romantic partner as the social relationship that will take care of all of their relationship and interpersonal needs. All of the eggs go in that basket, and so when I don't have that, there is nowhere to put my eggs, or all of my eggs have fallen onto the ground and cracked and I'm a mess, and so I think that's a pretty common presenting issue that I hear a lot of young adult men coming to therapy to quote unquote work on or want to talk about, and so we're often all if they want to do it that way. We're all up in that like masculinity work right. We're all up in that like masculinity work right, trying to figure out how the messages we have about how we are to be in space are impacting how they're making sense of everything that's happening for them.
Speaker 1:I come back to what you just said about that, that sort of metaphor of the eggs have fallen out of the basket and I'm a mess. I mean, I think we have messages around what being a mess looks like or how it should look. I mean, again, there are differences within gender, but I think there are very unique messages by gender for what a mess sort of looks like. And so I wonder how that initial approach to therapy for relationship issues right, I had this idea in my brain and I'm trying to figure out how to say it out loud. Maybe I'm just hoping that you are an actual mind reader.
Speaker 2:I am not a mind reader, but no, if you give me a little more and maybe I'll figure out what you're trying to say.
Speaker 1:So okay. So let's just say we're looking at our intake form and the intake form says romantic relationship issues. Yep, and I'm a mess. Yep issues yep and I'm a mess? Yep, but I don't know if this intake, I mean, follow my train of thought. This is not how it actually works, right, but I don't know as a clinician, is this person a male or a female? I think, the way we even have bias toward what does, does that mess look like? If I don't know right, are you following where I'm headed now?
Speaker 2:I think so what I think I hear you saying, beth, is we are all, as all people, impacted by the seas we swim in and masculinity is part of the sea we all swim in. Like some of these ideologies and these messages that, as a therapist, like we have hunches right, like we have these stereotypes that may not be accurate for a person. And I do think the other thing I hear you hinting at is like the intersectionality of who is saying this right. So like intersection with race, this right, so like intersection with race, gender right, gender expression, gender identity, religion, sexual orientation, like who the relationship is with, can add lots of different flavors to how the work might think and feel and some of the things that we might, how we might talk about where the stuckness is right.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of men sometimes show up with a problem focus, right, it's been four months and I'm not over it. I think I should be over it, or this keeps happening in my romantic relationships. I can get a first date, I can't get a second date, what's going on? And so I think often in my work, some of what I'm trying to search for is like the messages and the meaning.
Speaker 2:What's the story you're telling yourself about this stuckness or this pattern, and I get really interested in that and some men you know are able to do that. You know they've had experiences where sharing their inner world with other people and with another man, because I think who we are as a therapist can really impact this work in interesting ways too. I've had some clients tell me I can't do this with you because of who you are, tim, and I'm like I get it. That's cool. And I've had other folks who are like I don't know if I could do this with somebody, with someone else, and sometimes I'll try to unpack. That may or may not be true.
Speaker 1:And sometimes I'll try to unpack that may or may not be true, but but I get that. For you it feels like because of this you had kind of mentioned that that's like one of your, some of your initial questions around masculinity is asking someone who identifies as a man what are the scripts that you've been given? And I just began to think about, like I wonder, if that question is an interesting question for women to ponder in relationships or for men to ponder in relationships with men. Oh for sure.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think some of the traditional masculinity ideologies have a lot to say about emotional closeness and who a man can have an emotional closeness to and who they can't Like. That can be a part of the work as a male identifying therapist and for those of people no one knows me right but like I present fairly masculine in space in my appearance right I have a beard and so like there are social cues that I think pull that and some men are comfortable being close to me and some men struggle with that, and so sometimes that's part of what we're also talking about is in our work how is this working or not working for you? What's it like to do this with me? You know, what's it like for you to just do this?
Speaker 2:But then to do this in our relationship and when I supervise folks too, I think often encouraging them to be open to and explore those kinds of things with the men that they work with is some of that. You know, interpersonal immediacy here and now, use of self, a safe and effective use of self, like in the work. And the other thing is, I think for some men these are new things to them, so the answer I often get is. I don't know. It's fine, but trying to keep an ear open for, or some space open to consider what that might be like and how that may be impacting the work too, in good and bad ways.
Speaker 1:So as mental health becomes trendier which I know you and I both appreciate but in our second discussion that we are going to be sharing with the world next week, sometimes additional sort of trending toward mental health isn't always great. I'll put that there as a glimmer for what's coming next week, but I wonder if we are actually seeing a trend in more men seeking mental health treatment than perhaps when we were trained, Because I think, you know, I feel like the stat that was always shared that I remember, is we're going to see significantly more females who are seeking treatment than males, and so I'm curious if that trend is shifting.
Speaker 2:It's a good question. I don't know the data enough to know, but I think there is some research to say stigma is down on average and some of that will be next week's talk Again. I've got some of those pieces there. But yes, I do think some men are becoming a little more open to the idea and in saying those things out loud, like my grandfather, who I loved dearly, probably would have probably held it and dealt with it and maybe talked to my grandmother a little bit about that. But there probably would have been a lot of doing it on his own and he had a close community of people and my guess is some of them he could have talked with some of these pieces about.
Speaker 2:But I still know there was a time in my life as an adult this is a tangent but maybe feels like a related example Like I remember making an intentional effort to tell my grandparents, when I said goodbye after my first grandparent died, to say I love you and give them a hug every time I saw them, and I remember listening to what my grandfather's responses were in that embrace and in that moment of what they I think had been socialized and trained to say about their affection. I know my grandfathers loved me dearly but it wasn't, I think, as easy for them to always tell me that out loud and I feel some emotion in my eyes as I talk about that now, like remembering those moments with them and just, I think some of the different scripts we've gotten across time so that's maybe a tangent in the story to reinforce that I do think we are doing a better job of making men feel more comfortable to come to therapy and talk in therapy, and I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:As you were talking, I was just thinking about. You know, for most people they have shared out loud about a struggle before they seek treatment. So again, that doesn't happen for everyone, but for most people it's they've talked to a friend or a partner or somebody and they've said I'm struggling. And then either that person says, hey, maybe you should think about talking to somebody, or, after they talk about it, they think maybe I should talk to somebody. So I began to think about the challenges that some of these messages around. I have to be independent, I have to keep it together, I have to be strong. That we are often associating with males that it's like if I can't even struggle problem one, then I can't talk to you know, even the people around me about my struggle, then I can't talk to you. Know, even the people around me about my struggle, much less seek treatment. And again, it isn't always that stair step sort of model towards seeking treatment. But I just wonder if, yeah, if you might speak to your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:I do think men are. Some men are becoming more and it makes sense that like that's who I'm going to see, right? So I'm seeing a subset. I see the men who have some willingness to talk about some of it at least. They don't always like any client. Some people don't want to go here or there all the way down for lots of reasons. You're the only place I can talk about this. You know, I've had, I've done work with some men where I'm like well, who else do you talk to about this? And they're like well, well, I talk to my friends about it, but we don't talk about it like this.
Speaker 2:And what I interpret from that is there's a way men are socialized to maybe talk about difficult things with some humor, with some joking, with some maybe teasing. That that's how we're socialized to do it Like I could joke about the breakup, I could joke about not liking my body, I could joke about getting fired at work, but to actually tell you I'm really starting to feel like I am unlovable, or to tell you that I feel like I really don't like my body, or to tell you that I really feel worthless because I got fired, and to like do that in a group doesn't feel I don't know how to do that, doesn't feel safe to do that. My memory is bernet when in one of bernet brown's talks around vulnerability she talked about giving a talk on vulnerability. This is Tim's paraphrase of the story that. You know the talk. A man came up to her and she had kind of talked about wanting men to be more vulnerable. And you know the man said to her you don't understand. Like nobody wants me to get off of my horse and say that I'm in pain, everybody wants me to die on this horse and that I think sometimes, like lots of people, it harms men and women and non-binary folk.
Speaker 2:Right, that masculinity can be tricky and that for some men it cannot feel like it's okay to say the thing out loud. And so I have to go to a quote-unquote. Well, no, not a quote-unquote. I am a professional. I have to go to a professional. I can't go to a friend. I have to go to a professional where I know there's confidentiality and no one else is going to know and then I can say the thing out loud. It takes us a minute. Some men will come in and say the thing. Some men, it takes a while. Sometimes they have to sit on the pole. In me that's like let's just get there and just say the thing out loud, and sometimes I might plant some seeds and be like are we talking about this? I'm a little naive to see because I'm not always right. But yeah, I think one of the benefits of therapy for men is it does build a safe place for them, but also the idea that we need safe places for all people, including men in an outside therapy office world, to do this too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if we're people who are listening to this, how might we create that space outside of the therapy world?
Speaker 2:Well, we have to change the world. That's not too hard. Which?
Speaker 1:tsunami are we dreaming at?
Speaker 2:or learning to ride. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I think some of it for me is talking with men about you need friends and I think there's some truth to the moment that I need my friend is not the moment to build my friend, build that relationship. You have to put in the work ahead of time.
Speaker 1:Wait, say it again for the people in the back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The moment where I need my friend, where I need to have a person I feel comfortable, some comfort with, I can be honest with, I can lean into, I can reach out to and say I'm not doing well, can we talk Like that? Can't be the first interaction.
Speaker 2:It can be but that's not how it works in most relationships, right? Like you gotta do the pre-work, like got to build that relationship, often over time. For anybody right and this is not our topic, but I feel like with college students, that's the thing we're often trying to get them to do so with young men is you need to like put into some friendships and like cultivate some relationships in your life so that when it's hard you can cash in that a little bit, right and and feel like you can do that. And some men are better at that, right. Like with young adult men and college men like they're often communities, right, there are organizations and sports and clubs where sometimes there is enough of that that gets built where that work can happen, enough of that that gets built where that work can happen. But not in all of those spaces. There can also be masculinity messages in some of those communities too. That can be tricky to navigate.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just can't love this enough that you know. I think I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but you sort of the moment that you need a friend can't be when you're building the relationship, need a friend can't be when you're building the relationship. And so it got me thinking about how, in the last couple of years, I've been talking with some of my kind of long standing friends, people that I've known for a long, long time, and we've talked about how friendship is kind of becoming a little bit of a lost art, that like learning how to be a good friend and investing in friendships. When it feels like we're overscheduled and you know I've got to just take care of me and my family, it's like I think it is a hard like concept for people to think about. How do I invest in friendships? And so, as you kind of think about that question, how do you sometimes encourage the men that you work with to either start friendships or continue friendships? What are some of the practical things that you share with them?
Speaker 2:So sometimes I think it's getting a sense, for you know, what strengths do they have? So, like, what's worked before? Oh yeah, that's great. What are your natural communities already? Yeah, yeah. And then for me, I've got an interpersonal kind of therapist bent in me. So sometimes it's like what is making this work and being open to what I most frequently hear is, well, you're a therapist and I'm like, okay, yes, that is a real thing. And what else? Like you still showed up and told me the thing that you didn't want to tell me, right, or took the risk to share the thing that you've not shared with anybody else. Like that's not inconsequential. What did you do? What you have to do the thing and realize you didn't die, it was hard, and be willing to accept that it's not always going to work. Yep.
Speaker 1:Right and keep did the thing and it didn't really work, whatever. I went into it thinking how it was going to work or whatever. You and I know this and I think people know this in general. But I think when it kind of hits us in the face, it's like well, I didn't like that and I don't want to do it again. It is an investment that you might not see the return on after. The second time you're hanging out with a friend.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think one of the things that therapy actually I think I'm not sure we always I should note it for myself I'm not sure I always do well is helping people recognize that I am not your friend, because relationships are reciprocal. So like, like if, if this is not a template for friendship in that this is a one-way relationship. Like I care about your needs, I don't have needs, I, you know I. I seek to meet your appropriate expectations. You don't always have to meet my expectations. That is not actually how you know quote unquote healthy relationships work. That like you got to listen and share, you got to do both. That is an interesting thing. I think too, sometimes in therapy that can help for us to name and help people recognize too is there can be elements of it here, yeah, and it looks different in the outside world.
Speaker 1:Well, and as supervisors I think you and I both are supervisors, I think we both tend to have kind of an interpersonal bend a little bit too, and I can think about kind of countless supervisees that would be like I just love them, I love my client, I could just see us being friends. Or the client says I could just see us being friends. And yeah, it's just hard to explain how it. Yeah, we draw meaning from the therapy relationship, but it is not at all. It doesn't even feel at all the same if you were to run into that person at the store or at a coffee shop and they sit down and have coffee with you. It is sort of this thing that you almost have to experience for you to fully understand how much different it really feels.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think, for men in particular, that power imbalance can be a thing right. I've had male clients work to rebalance our power relationship, to equalize it, because I think what they also want is they want me to be the friend right, because they don't have it, and so those can be interesting power dynamics. To talk about in our relationship as well is kind of how, what this is and what this isn't, and if there's a yearning for this to be something different, what does that mean and what can that mean? And how else can you seek to build that and create that for yourself?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love your push towards meaning making because I think you know it's it's so therapeutic and figuring out like there really are very few things in therapy that are, you know, problematic. It's like, okay, so your client comes in and says, yeah, I think we should be friends because I feel comfortable, I feel safe with you. That by itself isn't the problem, right, that by itself is not an ethical dilemma, because it gives us what we can talk about. Right, it says, okay, so how can we draw meaning in this sort of thing that you've just shared? Right, it's actually so good to use in therapy.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and can be meaningful in how are we creating this for you and also maybe sometimes naming the uncomfortable thing of that? This is a little different than other relationships, right that I'm so glad you feel those things here. That's what I want for you to experience here, and I also know that our relationship has a different flavor and stays in the confines of our time in this space. Would you like to develop more relationships like this outside, where you can then also be this for other people because you know how helpful it's been to you and that's maybe how we start to change the world, right Slowly.
Speaker 1:One interaction at a time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with the thing we can do interaction at a time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, with the thing we can do. What else did we miss, I mean for today? I know we missed a lot. We could have talked. I mean we can talk about honestly. We could talk about gender issues in therapy forever, but anything else today that you were like I really want listeners to hear this part. Sure Well, the people who stuck on to the really want listeners to hear this part.
Speaker 2:Sure Well, the people who stuck on to the end are going to get a fun earful.
Speaker 1:That's it. They're going to get a great nugget.
Speaker 2:They are going to get a great well, we'll see. I do think the other thing I hear from a lot of young men is about the meaning and way they see themselves in their body and the meaning of sex and their relationships, and so I think as a therapist I have become more attuned to coded language around all of those dynamics and working to unpack those and understand. There are messages that men get about their bodies and about sex, and we socialize men to put a high value on both of those things, and so for some men that's not a part of the mix. But for some men that I've worked with, they're here because the breakup didn't work or they had a breakup. They haven't gotten over it, and when we unpack meaning it's well, I don't think I'm attractive, yeah, or I don't think I'm good at sex, and so those can be really hard things to talk about in therapy. But for a 20-year-old college student who's watched a lot of media and movies, they have a belief about who they should be and how they should function in the world.
Speaker 1:And in particular, around those two issues. Absolutely, that is its own episode. Okay, because it is so true. I mean, I generally, and when I was in private practice for a long time, I worked mostly with kids and teens and their families, but when I worked with couples, these two issues, I think, came up every single time, and specifically for the male, as you're describing, and you know, obviously, I think women have, you know, we've we've talked about women and body issues for a long, long time, but I think in therapy spaces we are often also talking about males and body issues and how sex relates to the relationship. Absolutely, okay, we want to unpack all of that again and again. But okay, tim, so you are going to be on next week again. I am so happy about it. So, listener, make sure you tune in, because next time we are going to be talking about self-diagnosis, which is, I mean, who doesn't love a good self-diagnosis? You know I'm always on Mayo Clinic, webmd. What is this rash on my foot.
Speaker 1:And you know why are my fill in the blank. So I'm excited for that next. So, listener, come back next week. Tim will be back. Tim, thank you for the start of this discussion around men's mental health issues. I think we could continue this conversation and six more episodes, because there's that many things to kind of unpack, but thanks for saying yes for today. Yeah, anytime, anytime. I'm so grateful, listener, thank you for being here and tune in next week for more of the amazing Dr Tim Hess. Ciao.
