Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 142: Maternal Rage: The Message Behind the Meltdown with Nicole McNelis
What if your most explosive moments as a mother aren't failures, but crucial messages your mind and body are sending? Licensed Professional Counselor Nicole McNelis returns to unpack the powerful truth behind maternal rage - that overwhelming anger isn't a character flaw but a rational response to impossible expectations and unmet needs.
"Mom rage is not a meltdown, it's a message," McNelis explains, offering a refreshing perspective that removes shame from these difficult experiences. Drawing from her clinical practice and research, she identifies the two primary triggers behind maternal rage: compromised needs and violated expectations. When mothers consistently sacrifice sleep, personal boundaries, and self-care while facing unrealistic standards of maternal perfection, rage becomes an inevitable warning signal that something must change.
The conversation explores how social media complicates motherhood by presenting idealized versions of parenting alongside oversimplified advice. Parenting trends like "gentle parenting" often get misinterpreted as requiring mothers to constantly prioritize children's needs while suppressing their own emotions - creating a perfect storm for resentment and eventual emotional explosion. McNellis advocates approaching these trends with "a lens that is both compassionate and critical," evaluating strategies based on what actually works for your unique family rather than forcing approaches that consistently fail.
Most powerfully, McNelis suggests that maternal rage can become "a catalyst for positive change" when properly understood. By listening to these emotional signals with self-compassion instead of judgment, mothers can identify necessary adjustments in family systems and personal boundaries. Just as McNelis describes embracing the possibility of rejection in her professional growth, mothers can approach parenting with a willingness to experiment, fail, learn, and grow - replacing the pursuit of perfection with the more sustainable practice of authentic presence.
Ready to transform how you understand your most difficult emotional moments? Listen now and discover how your anger might actually be your wisdom speaking.
Here are additional resources from Nicole:
https://postpartum.net/mom-rage-causes-ways-to-cope-and-reasons-for-hope/
https://www.instagram.com/therapist.mom.collective/
Research Study for Maternal Health Professionals on Maternal Rage: We are interested in learning more about attitudes and experiences working with maternal rage as a presenting concern. If you are a maternal health professional, please consider taking our survey to share your experiences so we can develop better training and interventions to address this common issue. Survey link: https://redcap.pcom.edu/surveys/?s=R8KEE48KCXFFLW9R. If you have any questions, please contact Dr. Alexa Bonacquisti at alexabo@pcom.edu. Thank you!
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
www.bethtrammell.com
Hey listener, welcome back. I'm your host, dr Beth Tramiel. I am a psychologist and a professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm the director of the Master's in Mental Health Counseling program. I'm training students to become therapists and I love doing that work. I love doing this work where I get to interview amazing fellow clinicians and I get to learn from them, I get to create a space for them to share their platform, and so today's guest is one of my favorite.
Speaker 1:I just love Nicole. You've been on several times now and you're always kind of like a framework person. You kind of like here's how we can kind of see this, here's a way to kind of think about this, and it's just always so tangible. And so before we pushed record, you had disclosed and I'm sure you'll share this that I think when you started in this career, this wasn't necessarily the topic that you thought you would be specializing in this stage of your career, but it has become just such an amazing part of the work you're doing and what a gift you are to our field. So Nicole McNellis is back. Thank you for being here. Can you introduce yourself and tell us something fun that's going on for you right now?
Speaker 2:Sure, oh, thank you so much, beth. Yes, it is such a joy to be back again and talking to you, so I feel so honored to be a repeat guest on your podcast and we just have such a great time chatting and we also chat about really important topics that hopefully really resonate with your listeners. So, yeah, a quick intro. My name is Nicole McNallis. I'm a licensed professional counselor. I am in the greater Philadelphia area where I have my own private practice. I specialize in perinatal mental health. I am also a mom of two.
Speaker 2:I have recently had the opportunity to do some really cool things in my work. So, in addition to being interviewed on podcast, I'm doing some more writing. Now. I am actively involved in some research at the university level, which is really exciting. I can talk about that a little bit. So I'm officially a researcher now, which is amazing. I'm a conference presenter, so I'm really really expanding what I do in the field and I'm loving it because I love the idea of educating other therapists and working in collaboration with other therapists, in addition to the work that I do with my clients in the therapy room. So it has been especially the last year has been really exciting where I've really focused quite a bit on much of what we're going to talk about today, which is mom rage and maternal rage. That's been a subspecialization of mine for the last year and actually I'd love to share this little tidbit with your listeners.
Speaker 2:The first person that I kind of spoke to about this topic out loud was Beth, was you.
Speaker 2:So I was preparing, I was preparing to do a really big conference presentation in July of 2024.
Speaker 2:And we spoke in May of 2024. And I really got the opportunity to work out a lot of the ideas that I was working through for that course, for that presentation. So that was the first time I talked to, you know, to a colleague, to somebody else in the field, about the topic in depth and honestly it gave me a real boost of confidence to be able to go in front of a room full of hundreds of colleagues and speak about this topic with you know, some expertise, and so thank you for that, thank you for giving me that opportunity. But really it's been a year and that was really the start of me talking about mom rage to other clinicians and kind of speaking it out loud in this way was a year ago. So this feels very full circle to kind of reflect on that topic and what this last year has been like for me and all of the things that I've learned. I've learned so much through this last year, so yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1:And you know what it's so interesting that that's your tidbit, because I remember that. I mean, I remember the conversation we had around you, sort of being a little bit nervous about. You know, I haven't really stepped out of my comfort zone and you know, I remember back then it's like this interesting thing that you know, when you make the decision to become a therapist, you are stepping into the private story of so many people. And so for years and years I remember just sort of being like really comfortable in this state of like. It's me and my client in this therapy room and it's safe in here and I don't have to, you know, I don't have to step out of my comfort zone a whole lot. It was like just me in this little space with my, my client, who I care about deeply, and all of it stays right here.
Speaker 1:You know, and I remember when I started doing more workshops and more trainings and things in the community, how much of a shift it really was to be like. Much of a shift it really was to be like oh gosh, I'm kind of leaving the comfort of my comfy swivel chair here in the therapy office to put myself out there. And so bravo to you, because I remember that first time where we were talking about this topic and how you were so good at it, just kind of naturally talking about it. But by the second time, when you and Megan came back to talk together on the show like you're, you could just see and feel your confidence, and so I'm just so excited for where, where this work is leading you and where, yeah, it was just kind of where you're headed, because I really do feel like, while the work is so valuable in the therapy room and I never want to take away the power of that work but it does feel like you're having broader impact now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's truly amazing. I do have a client that frequently says to me don't get so busy that you don't have room for me in your schedule anymore.
Speaker 1:Listen, remember I'm here Tuesday at 10. Don't forget.
Speaker 2:She reminds me of that. She has a great sense of humor. She reminds me of that every time that I see her, which I really appreciate, and I remind her that the work that I do outside of the therapy room is actually inspired by the work that I do in the therapy room with clients.
Speaker 2:There's a direct line right and so, and also I think this is what you were alluding to you know, the reason that I went to graduate school was to do that work inside of the therapy room with clients, one-on-one, like that deep, beautiful. You know, really it sounds dramatic, but I think it's true sacred work that we get to do when people are so vulnerable with us and let us into these very intimate places in their lives, welcome us into that and ask for our assistance with what they're struggling with. To me there's really there's nothing better, and so that's really where my heart is in this work. That's where it's always been. I think that's where it's always going to be, and I'm honestly so inspired by that work and so taken by that work in the therapy room that it inspires me to do work outside of the therapy room to help other clinicians with the work that they do with clients is really what has happened for me, you know, really over the last year plus, and so I just feel so fortunate to be on that path now that, in addition to this really beautiful work I get to do with clients, I now get to do some really wonderful work with colleagues and beyond.
Speaker 2:And that is that is amazing to me. I really do. I feel I feel so fortunate and it just feels like, you know, when you just feel at home in your work, like that is like that is how I'm feeling right now, like, oh, this just feels, this just feels like home, like this feels comfortable and this feels good, and it just, you know, you have those moments when you know that you're in the right place and you just kind of have to embrace that and I feel like that's where that's this sweet spot that I'm at in my career right now. And sometimes, you know, it's nice to take a moment and appreciate that, because it doesn't doesn't always feel like that, doesn't always happen, and so, yeah, I love it and it's.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting that we're describing it as a sweet spot and it's mom rage.
Speaker 2:Yes, mom rage is my, is my sweet spot. Um, you know, I have been called the mom rage lady and I am fully you're embracing it, I'm owning it. My second grader asked me to come into his class. They had a career day. He asked me to come in and talk to his the these, you know, eight-year-olds about mom rage and I was like buddy, I appreciate that. I appreciate that you like, know and have this understanding of the work that I do. But I really don't think eight year olds want to hear about mom rage or who knows, maybe I'm wrong, maybe that's my next audience, but I did have to turn down that speaking engagement because I didn't. I didn't think it was developmentally appropriate to bring my presentation to the eight year old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe we don't empower eight-year-olds to then tell their parent hey mom, you're just raging right now, Don't worry, Miss Nicole told me all about it. Yes, that's exactly right I can just picture it.
Speaker 1:So okay, here's the thing If folks didn't get a chance to listen to your first episode on mom rage or the second episode where we had Megan kind of join us to talk about mom rage, let's just give like a brief primer on kind of what we're talking about here and then we're going to talk about some specific questions around mom rage.
Speaker 2:Well, mom rage is? It's this very specific anger that arises in relation to and is related to something in someone's motherhood experience, and it's frequently related to feelings of powerlessness, injustice and rage. So that's what it is. So it is anger that is related directly and intimately to the motherhood experience, and what it is not is a character flaw. It's not a character flaw, right? These are moms that are responding to things that are happening in their environment.
Speaker 2:I was just speaking with a colleague and we were talking about how mom rage is. It's not a meltdown, it's a message, and I just thought that was so powerful, right? Like, mom rage is this. It's a warning signal that's going out, right, and it is the mom essentially saying, like hey, there is, I am overwhelmed, I am overstimulated, I'm unsupported, right, and then that's where this explosion of rage comes from, right? So it's really important to look at mom rage not just on the individual level and what's going on for that individual mother, but we also have to widen the lens and look at it from a much more systemic and systems-based perspective and look at what's going on in her family system, what's going on in her work life, what's going on in her community right, we really have to look at the systems beyond the individual, because we're all individuals that are interacting with our environment. None of us live in a bubble and so we dismiss or ignore that environment. We're really doing a disservice to our clients.
Speaker 1:We're not looking at the full picture, we're not looking holistically on what is going on, so I think this is an amazing way to start and I love that you just said like mom rage is in a meltdown. It's a message, right, and how we can pay attention. And when I ponder that in my own life, it's like okay, so what is the message I need to be paying attention to? And I think what I hear you saying and maybe this is where we'll head next is where did those messages in my mind come from? I've had this mom rage moment. It's telling me something and as I'm listening to the messages that I have in my mind and my body, what can I learn? Then it takes me to where did I learn those messages? So where do we learn these messages around motherhood? You know how do those sometimes lead to mom rage.
Speaker 2:That's such a good question. So when we look at the research around mom rage, we see two things come up frequently. Well, this is how the researchers describe it, right, that there's essentially two broad categories for mom rage, or two broad categories of triggers, and those are compromised needs and violated expectations. Right, and those two things are exactly what they sound like. So a compromised need could be something like someone not getting enough sleep because their baby's waking up all night needing to be fed right, that's a compromise need. A violated expectation could be the expectation that someone was going to be getting a lot more support from their community or their partner than they are getting.
Speaker 2:Or another violated expectation could be just kind of general societal expectations that we have for mothers that they're going to experience motherhood as blissful all of the time and that they're going to be able to enjoy us and that they're going to be calm all of the time and that there's beauty in all the moments of motherhood.
Speaker 2:Parenthood and motherhood can be a beautiful and joyous experience, but that's also accompanied by the very challenging parts of parenting and motherhood, right, and we have to be honest about all of that and just how nuanced that experience is and when we have these expectations that motherhood is not nuanced, right, it's just, you know, beautiful.
Speaker 2:All of the time when we set up that expectation, perfect, all of the time when we set up that expectation, we set up mothers to fail. So when we have this combination of compromised, you know, and unmet needs and violated expectations right, like those are the triggers, then that lead, or the buildup, then that leads to the explosion, right, which is the expression of the rage, whether the mom is taking it out on herself or taking it out on those in her environment. That's the explosion. And then we have the aftermath, which is frequently guilt and shame. She feels really badly that she yelled at her kids, or that she slammed a door, or that she told her partner to get out of her face and leave her alone, or whatever the case might be. She's getting on her last nerve, right? This is all hypothetical, by the way, hypothetically speaking, not that you've heard anyone say that ever.
Speaker 2:So that's all really important to keep in mind. And that again, mom rage is a reaction. Right, it didn't. It makes sense. It didn't come out of nowhere. It is basically the mother system saying I don't have anything left which I can protect myself, and so that's where this is coming from. Right, it is my systems, kind of like it's the last thing that is got, and so it's just exploding because I need some sort of protection, I need to try to create some sort of safety for myself, and that comes out in this angry explosion. And it makes that when we experience mom rage, it makes sense in the context in which we are experiencing it, and it makes sense when we experience mom rage. It makes sense in the context in which we are experiencing it, and we need to to remember that it's a rational, rational experience. It's not, it's very far from irrational.
Speaker 1:So when we think about, like, perhaps the family we grew up in and maybe that happened a lot in our family, or maybe that didn't happen ever in our family, and so I have to believe that that also impacts, whether it's the messages you have before the explosion, but certainly during the aftermath, I could think yeah, all of those messages and how we either internalize those messages or reject those messages can absolutely be part of this experience, right?
Speaker 2:Because all we know truly is our own lived experience. So your own processing and your own thoughts about your lived experience absolutely play into this, right? So if someone is coming from a household where there was a lot of yelling and screaming and that is a cycle that they wanted to break, and now they find themselves in that cycle of rage and yelling at their own children in the way that they were yelled at, that they never wanted to do, that brings up so much guilt and shame, because it's like I'm doing this thing that I experienced as difficult and now I'm doing that to my children, right, like I'm such a bad mom. And that's why it's so important to talk about mom rage and to break these cycles open and to really understand these cycles and to understand you're not a bad mom.
Speaker 2:Your mom probably wasn't a bad mom. She was probably dealing with all of these stressors and feeling powerlessness and all of these things, right? So let's try to understand this so that we can break these cycles instead of trying to use guilt and shame to break the cycle, because guilt and shame will work. It'll work. You know it works in the moment, but it's not a sustainable like coping strategy, right? It just make you feel worse in the long term. So what we want to do is we want to put in coping strategies and interventions that are sustainable and that will work for the long term, and guilt and shame is not that. It's not helpful at all actually.
Speaker 1:And certainly not in the long term, you know may get you to change your behavior. For right now, in this moment, guilt, guilt might do that. But how does social media kind of tie into this idea of mom rage In all the?
Speaker 2:ways every possible way.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what let's actually have? I think we can have a really nuanced discussion about social media because, just like so many things in our world, let's actually have. I think we can have a really nuanced discussion about social media because, just like so many things in our world, it's not all good and bad, right, and I have to admit, my first reaction to social media is to be like, oh, and that is because of my own fraught relationship with social media. Right, yeah, it is both a place where I find connection with how we met right.
Speaker 1:Connection with colleagues. It is a place where you know that's how we met right.
Speaker 2:It's where I find connection with colleagues. It is a place where, you know, I hear about what's trending and parenting, all that kind of stuff, and then also it makes me feel terrible, right, like as a mom. I feel like, oh, I'm not doing enough or I'm not reaching these expectations. Right, it is fraught and it is nuanced, and I think that is how a lot of my clients experience social media also, and we do see this reflected in the research on parents using social media. So what we see is when parents and when moms are going online and utilizing social media, they're looking for information. Right, they're seeking out parenting experts. They're seeking out what are the? You know, what is the best way to feed my baby as we're moving into solids, or, you know, whatever the specific question might be. Social media has become a place where we can now find that information and we have, you know, there's all of these. You know, self proclaimed parenting experts, right, you can find any information that you want and a whole lot of information that you don't want on social media, and you can also learn that, oh, I'm not alone. Here's another parent who is struggling with nighttime feedings, or here's another, here's a group of parents that are struggling with their toddler's behavior, right, like so. In that way it can be really helpful, but in the way of setting unrealistic expectations it can be really harmful.
Speaker 2:For example, one of the current parenting trends that I hear about a lot is gentle parenting, right? So this idea and I'm just going to give it like just a really general overview and kind of my take on it and what I see showing up in the therapy room but basically the way gentle parenting is interpreted by most parents is this idea that you know I have to be calm and gentle as a parent all of the time and that my needs as a parent are consistently pushed to the back and then I'm always focused on my child's needs and that you know I can't there is no space for you know me to get angry, there's no space for me to like essentially, really the way I interpret it is be fully human, right, it's all about, like, totally focused on the child and what they need, and there's a very specific way to do that and to show up. And so gentle parenting in and of itself is not necessarily problematic.
Speaker 2:Where I encountered as problematic as a therapist is the intensity of parenting that gentle parenting requires, like this idea of literally always having your children attached to yourselves, that the mother, especially, is the person who can meet all the needs of all of the children in her life, right? That there doesn't need to be a community, that there doesn't need to be a village, right? That's where I think gentle parenting really creates a lot of issues for moms is this idea that you have to be everything all of the time and you have to show up in this very specific way all of the time, and if you don't do that, you then traumatize your child and that again sets moms up for failure and then that builds a whole lot of resentment and then that can lead to this rage explosion because all of these expectations are just impossible to meet, and that's a trigger but probably I'm thinking I need another episode on gentle parenting.
Speaker 1:But I agree, I mean, I think the misconception is that gentle parenting means you don't have boundaries and you don't hold kids accountable. And in fact gentle parenting doesn't suggest that at all. Gentle parenting still suggests you have boundaries with your child and you lead with respect and empathy. But it doesn't mean that kids get to just do whatever you want and you say, oh, and I just love you so much and I'm never going to be mad and I'm never going to have feelings and I'm never going to tell you anything that's going to hurt your feelings or make you feel any kind of negative emotion, like you're saying. It is a fast track to failing as a mom. If you think that those are the things that you have to do and if you have kind of summed that up as a gentle parent, then I would kind of encourage maybe deeper resources on what gentle parenting actually is and how it can be a really good approach for some people in some situations. But it certainly doesn't mean that you don't have any boundaries or needs.
Speaker 2:Right. So much of what I talk to my clients about in terms of parenting. It's finding what works for you, yeah Right. And if that's a little bit from gentle parenting, great. A little bit from bit from gentle parenting, great, yeah. A little bit from other styles of parenting Pulling from another theory, great.
Speaker 2:If you're pulling from what you learned as a child, wonderful Right. It really is about finding what works for you and is a good fit for your family and building confidence in that, because when we have these like very stringent expectations around parenting and a lot of what this is the other thing with social media usually the things that get that get clicks are fairly simplified, right. They're not the nuanced conversations that you and I are having about what really is gentle parenting and what are some of the positives of it and what are some of the things we maybe need to think critically about. That's not really what you're seeing on social media. You're seeing, like the clickbaity stuff, because those simple messages are much easier to digest and are much more attractive, right? The other thing that gets a lot of clicks on social media or is anything that sparks any outrage those are usually pretty simplified messages, too, and so you really have to take that into consideration when we're looking at parenting advice and parenting experts and parenting theories that you know show up and kind of rise to the top on social media. Usually those things are highly, highly simplified in order for them to be easily digestible in you know one little frame and then what that leads to is parents and moms feeling really badly about the job that they're doing and again feeling like they're not meeting these unrealistic expectations right, and then that's just like the parenting expert part of social media.
Speaker 2:Then there's also the.
Speaker 2:You know it's confusing when we see that kind of juxtaposed with pictures of your friend's new baby, and so it's hard for our brains to like figure out.
Speaker 2:Like okay, here's like some advice from this parenting expert, but then here's my friend posting about what they did with their kid their other day, or this great vacation that they went on, and it it's hard to like parse out you know what is curated and what is not and what is just for clicks and where is somewhere that I can actually like connect with my friend or a colleague. It gets really confusing and muddled and honestly exhausting for most people. So you know it's weird to see. Like you know, here's something about a celebrity, and then here's my friend on vacation and it's like, okay, this is all, like right next to each other, that and I'm and I'm trying to figure it all out and take it all in, and it's just a lot for our systems to handle. And then we've had these explosions because systems are just like, yeah, I can't, I can't do this anymore, I can't take this all in anymore.
Speaker 1:It's why, you know, therapists probably recommend a social media fast. You know, I sometimes prescribe that for clients to be like listen, like give yourself a break from social media. And I think the other thing I was thinking about as you were talking and you kind kind of mentioned, like you know, take different parts of different things and even on social media, like there are some things that you're like that's such a great idea. I'm going to try doing that. That's so great.
Speaker 1:I want to make sure that we say out loud because I think we probably say this out loud to clients mothering is something that requires constant reassessment. That which worked for me when my kids were toddlers isn't working now that they're in elementary school or they're in high school or middle school or whatever. Sometimes we can get stuck because we're kind of in the daily grind of all the things and the packing, the lunches and the picking up from school or getting on the bus or whatever that we kind of pause to evaluate is this still working? Is this season, is this practice or this approach that I'm taking to bedtime? Is this approach we're taking to bath time? Is this approach we're taking to discipline, to connection, whatever that is like? Is this working now? It was working before, but is it working now? And then the next season of life? So I don't know like what are your thoughts around that, like seasons of motherhood, and how we can be sort of aware of how those seasons change and how we may need to adjust?
Speaker 2:I think we can use a lens that is both compassionate and critical at the same time, right.
Speaker 1:Oh girl, okay, you're gonna, you're gonna have to unpack that right there.
Speaker 2:So, first of all, I don't mean critical in a judgmental way, yeah Right, I mean critical in a critical thinking way. So, bringing this back to the what we were just talking about with social media, there's nothing. Well, this is a big statement but, inherently speaking, like there's nothing inherently wrong with social media in general right, like good and bad. But what we can do when we are taking in all of that information is we can look at it with a critical lens and we can ask questions like does this feel like a good parenting strategy for me? Yeah, is this something that works with my kids or is this something that doesn't work with my kids? Frequently, parenting experts on social media will have you believe oh, if this particular strategy that I'm selling in my you know talking about in my book, which means that I'm selling right, yeah, if this doesn't work, this thing that I'm telling you to do with your kid when they're having a meltdown, if that doesn't work, you're not doing it right, you're not trying hard enough, you haven't practiced it enough times, right, it's not the strategy, it's you. That's the problem. I'm out here telling parents it's not it's, it's not you, it's the strategy, not all stress and this you know I feel like goes back to our time in graduate school. It's why they teach us about a million different modalities so that we, as therapists, can decide what feels like a good fit for us and what we want to learn more about and what we can use with clients, because not all modalities work for all clients and it's the same thing not all parenting strategies are going to work for all children. So if we learn to look at those strategies and those theories and those trends with a critical eye, we'll recognize that for the most part, oh, it's not us as parents that are the problem, right, it's the strategy. That's not necessarily problematic, even though some of them are. Really what it is isn't a good fit, yeah right, and that can be. That's a much more helpful way to look at it Because, especially with moms like constantly being fed this idea that they are failures, right and not living up to these expectations.
Speaker 2:It really just is a recipe for so many moms just feeling absolutely terrible about themselves and feeling like they're doing a terrible job and beating themselves up all of the time, when really they're trying to do their best. That's the reason they're looking up these parenting strategies is because they just want to do what's best for their family, and so I think that that's really important to keep in mind is we need to use both compassion and also a critical lens as we're looking at things like social media, but also as we're looking at our own parenting. It's okay to say this is a place in parenting where I need to improve. But you don't need to be mean to yourself, you don't need to beat yourself up through that process.
Speaker 2:You can say this is something I want to learn to deal with my toddler's meltdowns in a more productive way. That's going to get you much further than saying I'm a bad mom because I get upset when my toddler has meltdowns. Like it's okay to be upset and it's okay to say I really want to learn to do better in this area, and then that gives you a path forward, rather as if you just beat yourself up and are mean to yourself. Then that really shuts things down and is kind of a dead end. There's not really a whole lot of room to work there and also it's just exhausting and it feels awful after a while. Right, if you just think you're bad at everything, including how you parent, like it's just a hard way to live, it's a terrible place to be.
Speaker 1:I think that was your first episode that you came on talking about self-compassion. I think you kind of brought up some of that. So if listeners are kind of interested in learning more, I know that that is another topic that you kind of talked about. I love this idea of it being a critical but not judgmental lens toward like really pausing to think. You know, is this really working? And so I just think that's great. And I think this idea of allowing space for our human reaction to things that are going on in our world as moms which may include mom rage from time to time through this lens of compassion and wanting to continue to grow, I think that that's what you're saying is kind of our path forward. That when we have this, that this meltdown, that becomes the message for us, then we can take a path forward. And so how do you help folks kind of think about what their path forward might look like if they're having some of these moments?
Speaker 2:So one of the things that I find most helpful and hopeful in the research on mom rage is the idea that mom rage can be a catalyst for positive change and that when I really first started encountering that in the research, that really floored me. Honestly, I found it to be so profound because I'm not I say this all the time to clients, I'm not a silver linings therapist. I'm not the therapist that's going to say, oh, we have to, there has to be a lesson here, there has to be a silver lining, there has to be some good in this. Sometimes things in life are just really hard and really kind of awful and we have to be honest about that in order to find a path forward. But this idea really resonated with me that you know, mom rage is a message. It is our bodies and our mind, it's our whole system trying to tell us something that we are overwhelmed, overstimulated, our needs aren't getting met all of these things that we've talked about and that if we show up and work through and with that mom rage in a way that is productive, it can then be a catalyst for change, because the other people in our environment will then know hey, there's this is a red flag going up here like something. Something is wrong, and again, it's not this mom having you know some failure of character. Right, it is. She needs some support, she needs a break, she needs to be listened to and cared for, and that is a message that has truly, truly resonated with me, and I again feel so fortunate to be able to share that with the clients that I work with and now with therapists that I work with when I'm doing education around mom rage. And you know, like we started I'm going to bring it full circle when we started this conversation talking about how.
Speaker 2:You know, I have been talking about mom rage nonstop, essentially for a year now, and I've learned. I've learned so much, and I think part of what I've learned and this goes back to my grad school days is just how important it is to listen to what people are really trying to tell you, but also to listen to our own bodies, to listen to our own thoughts, right, to really show up for ourselves in this way, right? So I was really listening to my clients in the therapy room and noticing this pattern of bomb rage coming up all the time, right? And so then I wanted to find resources for them. And then I realized oh, I'm talking to my colleagues about this a lot too, why don't I create some educational programs around that? And that really resonated. And so one of the other things I've learned from that experience and this for me speaks to my parenting experience too is this idea to like embrace the idea of rejection or embrace the idea of getting it wrong, sometimes right, like that's how we learn.
Speaker 2:So when I first decided that I wanted to go beyond the therapy room with this topic of maternal rage and I submitted a conference proposal to a really big international conference in the field of perinatal mental health, I submitted that proposal thinking this is going to be really good practice for me. There's no way that they're going to accept this proposal, but I'm going to do it because eventually, this is somewhere that I would like to speak. This is an experience that I would like to have, I want to present on this topic. So I'm going to get this practice in. Right, I was embracing the idea of rejection. I was essentially setting myself up and saying like, yeah, they're probably going to say no to this. There's like a small chance they'll say yes, but they're probably gonna say no to this, and I'm okay with that. Yeah, because embracing that idea of rejection means I'm taking some healthy risks and I'm doing some scary things, but I'm doing it for, like, the greater good. I'm doing it so that I can move forward. You know, with this thing I want to do in my career and it's the same thing in parenting.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we have to try some things out that maybe don't work out so well, that maybe our kids don't respond to that, maybe we don't feel so good about as parents and like that's okay. That means that you're taking healthy risks. It doesn't mean that you failed. It means that you're really doing your best to try to find a path forward that feels like home, that feels good, that feels like it's the right fit. It takes work to get there. You don't just wake up one day and be like I am on the correct path in parenting or I'm on the correct path in my career. That takes work, and part of that work is getting comfortable with people telling you no and getting comfortable with this idea of like.
Speaker 2:I truly embrace the idea of rejection. Because then I'm like oh, I'm putting myself out there enough that I'm getting that. I'm getting some, some no's. And then the great thing is, you also get you know some yeses right. You also get you know places where they're like yeah, we'd love to hear you speak about this, this sounds great. And then you also have to be open to those opportunities too and also embrace the yeses right and be like yeah, okay. Well, now I've got this opportunity and now I really need to, to show up and do my best, and also, it doesn't have to be perfect, right, and that's important too. So, and again, these are all parallels with parenting I'm going to show up and do my best, and it doesn't have to be perfect. There, in fact, is no perfect in this space, in therapy and counseling, and also in in parenting. So that's my, that's my soapboxes. We're wrapping things up here.
Speaker 1:I just, I just love it. I mean, I love this message around, you know, just showing up with compassion, showing up knowing we're imperfect, and that's how we all are anyway, so I just love it. So, nicole, how can people find you? Tell us how we can find you in the work you're doing.
Speaker 2:Sure, so I have my practice website, which is Nicole McNelliscom, and my most up to date work on mom rage is on it's so funny we're talking about social media is on my social media. That it is. It is good sometimes, and I'm on Instagram and my account is therapist mom collective, so that's where that work can be found. And also, if you are a provider and you're really interested in learning more about mom rage, if you go on to my social media, you can see some of my current trainings and also some of the current research that I'm involved in. We're currently looking for some participants to providers that work with clients who are experiencing mom rage. We want to know about your experience. So, yeah, so I'm involved in all the things mom rage. So take a look at my social media and you can find all of those updated, all those updated things that I'm working on there. It's amazing.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you came on to talk about this again today. I mean, I just think, the more we can bring light to this idea that so many of us relate to I just what a gift to share. So, thank you for saying yes to being here again and, listener, thank you for being here also. I know that time is very valuable, and so, whether you're working out, you're taking a walk, you're sitting on your living room couch, wherever you are listening, today, I'm glad you're here too. So, nicole, thank you, appreciate you and until next time, stay, stay safe, stay well, ciao.
