Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep158: Holding Space: Why Therapy Still Matters
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Start with joy, stay for the honesty. We open with a decades-strong book club that thrives on simple rules—one host, one book, one clean bathroom—and use it as a living example of how small, consistent structures create deep connection. That same clarity shows up in therapy: reliability, presence and a shared space where stories can land without judgment. Michele Mani, a registered psychotherapist and clinical supervisor from Ontario, joins the show to explore the real work behind the work—how clinicians find flow, protect their energy and choose careers that move with the current instead of against it.
Together, we name the quiet privileges of the therapy room and the real weight it can carry. We talk about normalizing the “unsaid” that so many clients bring—loneliness in long-term relationships, fear about the world, grief that lingers—and why gratitude and humility steady us when the job feels heavy. For therapists, there’s a candid look at strengths-based practice: reframing “weaknesses” as non-dominant strengths, designing days around your zone of genius, and building practical systems for notes, goals and continuity so presence can lead the hour. If spreadsheets drain you and client work fuels you, this is a blueprint for sustainable practice.
An AMA question from a non-therapist adds a powerful turn: how do you help someone who believes therapy can’t help? We unpack a compassionate response—honor the hopelessness without arguing, then open the tiniest door to change, a “finger of possibility.” No promises, no pressure. Just one fully present session to test what connection can do. That blend of simple structure, honest strengths, and light-held hope turns out to be useful everywhere—around a dinner table, across a therapy screen, and inside a life that wants to move forward without burning out.
If this conversation resonates, share it with a friend, send us your AMA questions, and follow the show so you never miss Part Two. Your review helps more people find a little structure, a little hope and a lot of heart.
This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.
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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com
www.bethtrammell.com
Hello, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, Dr. Beth Travel. This is Things You Learn in Therapy, and I am trying hard not to just giggle my way into this intro because my guest and I today have just had the most joyful time for the last little bit of chatting. And then we we both kind of realized we better push record before we run we run out of time. And so here's the thing if we don't have enough time to cover all the things that we're gonna cover today, don't you worry because Michelle's gonna come back again and we are gonna be just fine answering all the things. You're gonna come back again and again and again because it's so many things. So I'm coming back already. So glad to see you. And that's why, you know, we just had so much joy before we started, but we're gonna have joy again because we have great questions that, you know, kind of therapist to therapist, what's kind of going on in the world of therapy? But the things that are going on in the world of therapy are also happening in the world, just kind of period. And so I'm really excited about some of the questions that we've asked some of our colleagues to share, clients to share. And so we're just gonna kind of do a question. You said AMA. That's what you said, Michelle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Ask me anything. Like ask us anything.
SPEAKER_00:Listen, I love this. Okay, so listen, first, introduce yourself to folks for anybody who hasn't heard your other lessons.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Lessons, I mean episodes. That's what I mean.
SPEAKER_01:Phil, Phil, correction, correction. Take it back, Phil. Take it back. Okay, so thank you so much for that. And I am glad you got us on point to record because we were just talking away and enjoying uh our conversation and thinking about what we were bringing to you today, dear listener, and uh some ideas that may be shared at the end of this episode or not. So we'll just leave you with that kind of question mark in your mind. So my name is Michelle Manny, and um I'm located in Ontario, Canada. Um, bonjour, and I am a registered psychotherapist, Canadian certified counselor with the CCPA and clinical supervisor. I'm entering into my fifth year of private practice, 20 plus years in practice as a therapist and a clinical supervisor, and I have a longstanding work uh working virtually, which is kind of interesting pre-COVID. So um have really enjoyed working both with clients and supervisees on a variety of mediums, and I'm just delighted to be here for our AUA. And um, thanks for hanging in with us.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so you told us a lot of fun things, but did you have a separate fun thing you wanted to share?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's kind of like I was thinking about that. It's it's a quieter fun thing. It's a it's a quieter fun thing, and that is I was thinking about it this week because we had our monthly um monthly get together on Wednesday is the book club that I'm a part of. So I'm one of the newer members, and I've been going for at least 15 years. Uh and they have, I don't even know how long, 35 years it's been going on.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:So some of them met in high school, some of them at university, and little by little, some other people were able to join. So no matter how you're feeling, you're tired, you're like, do I really want to, you know, is today not a good day to go? I have all these other things. By the moment you get there, and we go to a different person's home every uh, you know, once a month for dinner and just discuss the book, and every time you're there, you're just filled with energy and discussions and updates, and it's just a really nice environment to be. And so that's kind of, I guess for me, like a quiet joy, uh, but you feel the joy when you're there and the different stages of life that people have gone through. So the book we read was Orbital by Samantha Harvey. Ah, and I so I kind of thought about it because that's a gentle, like that's a sign, it's a quiet meditation. So there's something about that that kind of made me think of this too.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I I mean, I love this fun thing, and I love that you're doing this book club. I love the longevity of it. I mean, I just think about how deep those relationships are. Um, when you know you've been to getting together consistently for 15 to 35 years, like just how special that that must be.
SPEAKER_01:It really is.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I really just want to talk about the book club now. Okay, so I I know this is how we get. We have a little bit of a couple of things. This is how we get because I'm like, I really want to help listeners understand the structure of how it doesn't have to be complicated. You know, I think our culture, um, I think we're just kind of a world right now that is seeking depth and relationships, but it's hard to do that in the busyness of the world. And so I think most of us feel like, oh, I don't have time to read a book and I don't have time for a book club. And, you know, what if I don't actually like spending time with those people or who else is gonna be there? It's like we overcomplicate it. And it's like if we really want to have deep relationships, absolutely, you do have to kind of put yourself out there into developing a community.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I couldn't say it better.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so how did this I'm I am just gonna ask you about the book club. So are you reading? Let's do it. Yes. You read one book a month, yes, and the person who's hosting chooses the book, or does the group choose the book? No, person who's hosting chooses the book, and then they host, and then is it a pitch-in, or is it the host cooks everything the one time they host?
SPEAKER_01:The host cooks everything. So it's usually people are once a year bringing people in. And so you get to know, you get to know where it is. So we went to um that's very funny. So there's there's one home. I'll I will uh call out to Janet, that it doesn't matter what's happening in people's lives. For some reason, everyone for sure makes sure we make it to Janet's house. And she just has this, she's actually a psychiatrist, and she has this wonderful way of just putting things together that looks like zero effort, and she cooks wonderful dolls and this and that. But in this time, she um uh part prepared and part-ordered the most delicious Persian food that we are all still thinking about, anyways. It's a wonderful environment with her, the her uh her older kids. Um you know, there was at least 10 of us that showed up, two ridgebacks, a dog, and um, you know, just just a wonderful time. So I don't even know what you asked. But I am that's that's an answer to I don't even that's so that that's it, right?
SPEAKER_00:You answered it and it was perfect. And you know, I uh we started a supper club uh at the inspiration of you know, Jen Hatmaker of all people, um, author of several books, and she talked about this supper club that she did, and I was like, I want to do that. And so Supper Club is once a month, and there's four couples and um you host once like this, and you are in charge of all the food, all the drinks, all the cleanup, and then you don't have to bring anything. And I just think that I think that structure is really freeing for people that you know, one time you have to do all the work, but then the other times you just get to be free. You just show up and um we, you know, are kind of we set some expectations at the very beginning that it's like you just have to have one clean bathroom, and that's you know, then you have the food and that's it. And if you want to buy the food and bring it in, that's fine. If you want to pay somebody to clean your kitchen, that's fine, but it's just your responsibility, it's so good. So maybe this beginning is just kind of that like push toward deepening relationships, especially in a world that's very lonely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I have another bridge.
SPEAKER_00:Go with that.
SPEAKER_01:All right, you ready? Here's another bridge that I was thinking about. So I won't get into all the history of the book club or how I was brought in. Thank you, Adria, um, or how I was welcomed to that group. But I was thinking, and here's the bridge back to therapy, that one of the privileges and wonderful aspects of this group of phenomenal women, is I would not necessarily have come in contact with all of them. Now, there's some who I could have, maybe because they live near me, or maybe because we're in, you know, at some point a similar group or interests, and we would have come by each other, but many of them I would not have met. We would not have been necessarily in the same circles. We would not necessarily be going to the same uh entertainment or groups or say or similar friend groups. So some had some crossover of friend groups and others did not. And so what's amazing to me is regardless of that, we all truly value each other and are able to see and appreciate and learn about each other's worlds. And that brings me back to therapy, where we have clients that may share some similarities with us, and we can have maybe a quicker understanding of some of their experiences, which by the way, are both could be a blessing, but also a challenge, because then we have to check ourselves and watch some things. Right. But we also meet so many clients who are very different from us that we would not necessarily come in contact with or hear ideas or experiences, points of view, beliefs that are quite different from our own. And because we're sitting in a position where they're not friends, because we're sitting in a position where we don't have to uh protect our own point of view or or debate that, we can actually sit there very present with them with an openness to listen and be in the room with them and be receptive to that and be where they are. And that's kind of beautiful.
SPEAKER_00:I I mean it's it's really beautiful. And even as you're talking, I was like finding myself almost tearing up a little bit about how true that really is. And I think almost the older I've gotten, the more I have really come to appreciate that gift of just sitting with someone in their story. And, you know, just how powerful it is when people show their kind of deepest wounds to you and just like, I mean, just how special that is, you know, to have somebody just lay it out for you and then you just sit with them and receive it and be present with it. And, you know, it's such a gift. And, you know, it made me also think about how, you know, I think sometimes I've had clients come in, and you probably have too, right? Where they're just kind of like, I don't know, I just need to make sure I'm not crazy. You know, like here's what's going on in my life. And I just feel like, how could this possibly be true? And the real privilege that we get is we get to hear the things that no one else talks about. And so we have the gift of normalizing it for people that because nobody else wants to talk about it in their circle, but they'll come and talk to a therapist. The gift the therapist can give is, oh, baby, you're not alone. Like we've had 12 people today talk to us about how lonely they feel in their marriage. And we've had a hundred people in the last month talk about how they're terrified of, you know, the state of the world right now. Like you are experiencing something that so many people experience, just don't talk about.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a real privilege.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it really is. I think it really is. And when we, you know, I love that we're kind of taking a moment here to pause to feel that because I think I think sometimes the heaviness of therapy can feel hard. And so the sort of specialness of this moment, I hope, inspires people to pause to feel the gratitude for that too, when even on the tough days.
SPEAKER_01:So in that you're speaking to the therapist, right? But maybe even to the client also. Yeah, for somebody who's interested in that to know that, right? Yeah. That that that it's seen as a privilege and an honor to be there with them. Yes. And yeah, it it is sometimes can be heavy work, you know, but I look and I think, you know what's really heavy for me? And I don't say this lightly, like Excel spreadsheets. Like, this is how I know I'm in the right place. When I was younger, I would, you know, younger in career or younger, you know, in age, you know, sometimes I would look at what certain people were doing or the important jobs that they had, and you know, how busy they seemed, and all the things that they were doing with, I don't know, paper at the time. And now with computers and this, I'd be like, oh, that's so cool. Like I could, and I now I kind of look at that, I'm like, oh my God, like that's the worst. Like I get a I get to see them when they come in. I don't have to do all that stuff. And that's how I know that I'm in the right place. And same thing for me as my career has changed. It was, you know, sometimes even in this field, challenging. So if we're working in an environment and we see, okay, so what are options to move forward or to further develop, that really looks different depending on the organization you're with. Right. And so for me, in some areas, development would have looked like taking on the roles and responsibilities that in my mind I thought, well, that would be something, right? Like that, that's really important. And it's overseeing X, Y, and Z. And it's and I thought at one point, and I had kind of an awakening for me, is like, I don't want to work with budgets. I'm not saying, like, now I'm in private practice, of course. You know, there's certain things we want to be familiar with, and there's certain things that, you know, certainly from the financial aspect or business aspect, we do want to be on top of. But I do not want to spend my time on those kind of things or overseeing those things. I want to work clinically. Like that's what I want to do. And so I've been able to both stay, which I'm grateful for past employers, and move towards, which I'm grateful for me, and people have supported me in this journey to remain really clinically focused because I think that that's my area and that's my calling. So it's not like I won't do the other stuff, it's that I've become much clearer about the type of work that fulfills me now.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, and I do that make sense. Yes, yes. I love that you kind of come from this place of gratitude and you know, recognizing the privilege in being able to do just the work you really want to do. And I think about, you know, some leadership books or speakers that I've heard where it's like when you're kind of in your zone of genius, you don't really want to step out of your zone of genius to do things that someone else could do. Right? That's what great leaders do. Great leaders, you know, when they get to a certain point, they're like, I don't want to have to enter this data into this spreadsheet. Someone else, I could train someone else to do that. My zone of genius really is to do the clinical work. And I've really thought a lot about that, and like, how can I minimize those things that really don't bring me joy, that really don't serve um me as well, or you know, the talents that I have. How do I how do I do less of those things and more of the things that really I know are within my zone of genius? I feel good doing it. I know that that's kind of what I'm here to do without having to do the other things. Because somebody has to do the other things. Yes, and yes, yes, yes, but I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, and yes, and so first of all, I love the zone of genius TM that I'm now going to be taking everywhere with me, and I will be talking about myself like that to book club. They will all roll their eyes incredibly and go on to whatever they were talking about. So, yes, and there's always going to be things that we're not crazy about doing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. For me, it was more like am I swimming upstream or downstream? Am I swimming against the current or with the current? Because a lot of those roles that I thought, but that's what that looks like. And that's everyone else seems to be wanting that role. You know, everybody else seems to be valuing that role. Yeah. For me, it would be against the current.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because the majority of the work of that role would be things that I wasn't interested in. Yeah. Although I would think to myself, I should be interested in them. And there became, you know, we will not go into the psychology of Bash, but like, you know, but that's what it looks like. That's what development looks like. That's what uh increasing capacity and skills and um and growth looks like. And so I think it took me maybe longer than most to really say, no, like that's actually against the current for you. And what is with the current for you? Yeah, there's all those things that we don't like doing, but what's with the current? And I would say the clinical work is much more my current. So when I was able to kind of lean into that more, then there's a lot less aspirations and areas that don't actually fit with who I am, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. When I think about job satisfaction, even life satisfaction, when you're doing more things in the downstream way of life, doesn't take doesn't take a lot of uh research to figure out that that's probably going to increase your job and life satisfaction, right? And so, you know, my sister-in-law's a Gallup certified, what do they call Gallup certified strength coach or something? I don't know. So she's with Gallup and she focuses on strengths. And um, one of the things, I don't know, I'm not I'm not Gallup certified, and so I'm gonna probably mess this up a little bit. But one of the things that really helped me when she was talking about kind of that framework was that all of us have all sorts of strengths. And those that are, you know, kind of your main strengths, the more tasks and the more things you do that really highlight those and serve those well. It's it it feels to me similar to like this downstream, upstream thing. But then what she said is that we don't call them weaknesses, we call them non-dominant strengths. I love that. I know I was like, Yeah, I love that. Oh, wow, that's actually a really great reframe to say those things that are in my non-dominant strengths are the tasks that I don't want to do. They're the ones I put off, they're the ones that I'm like, oh, I can't do that. When when really I can, it just feels more upstream.
SPEAKER_01:It just takes so much more effort.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. And so there's there's something I think really powerful in this kind of reframe that we're talking about, whether you think upstream, downstream, we're not telling people like life's gonna be great and you can just like hop on a float and go downstream forever. But I think reframing things so that you perhaps have more self-compassion. That's what it did for me. It just really gave me some self-compassion around tasks that I'm like, oh, why am I dreading this so much? It's just entering my daily invoice. Like it just doesn't need to be that much. And I just put it off and hated it. And anyway, you're nodding. What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_01:So I also really like that reframe. Yeah, that idea of not, you know, I because it's not it's not judgmental. You're right. It's it totally reframes it in a different way that's actually not aligned with comparing oneself with others. And if we look at that from a narrative perspective, and we look at store dominant stories or thinner stories, in this case, the thinner story and the non-dominant is something that we may want to expand to look at, but it's not necessarily something that we were gonna we're necessarily gonna follow. And so, what would it be like for us to actually sit with the dominant, you call them dominant strengths, dominant, right? Those dominant capacities, yep. And to lean more into them. Yes. And I So as a therapist, so let's let's let's think about that. So for what would that mean for therapists?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, I think when I think about it, if you're asking me, I don't know if you're asking me or if you were just Yeah, like what would that mean for therapists?
SPEAKER_01:Not in so much of their job or role, but what that what would that mean clinically for therapists if they were to when they're thinking about their career or they're thinking about being in a room with a client, how would they use that dominant strength? Like still building, of course, capacities in other areas. They're not gonna say, like, uh, you know, this area is difficult for me, so I'm not going to learn about it. No, of course not, right? But maybe there's some areas that they're just so much stronger in and passionate about, and they have these ideas, especially as beginner therapists, that, oh, but I should know about all these things. Yep. What would be your thoughts for those therapists? What would be some feedback you might you might give them?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, I think about well, I I'm thinking about this in two ways. And You know, I know you do a ton of supervision. I do supervision. I'm training graduate students. And, you know, it's so hard because early clinicians, I just think, and I even think back to myself as an early clinician, being like, oh, I do have to always have the smartest thing to say. I have to be in control. I have to get them to cry. I mean, I had all these expectations around what I thought therapy was supposed to be. And then it was like, now I'm trying to train people to recognize that so much of therapy is just the presence, the pausing, the allowing things to kind of settle and kind of guiding people with guiding questions to learn more and deeper, helping the client understand things more deeply. But then I think about the other parts of being a therapist, you know, note-taking, goal setting, tracking, you know. So those of us who have a smidge of ADHD floating around or are not, no, I we're both raising our hands right now. Those of you who are uh listening in that were just kind of raising your hands. So I think some of those parts, it's figuring out what strategies you need. And I think it took me a decade to figure out the strategies that I needed, not to be better as a therapist in the room. I think those things evolved as I got experience being in the room with people. But I think those things that just continually were like, uh, you know, like that upstream, against the grind, however you want to kind of conceptualize it. Was like I had to, I just had to come up with other strategies.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What about you?
SPEAKER_01:I'm wondering if we should go to a couple of questions.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:We have we have a few minutes left. We can do that.
SPEAKER_00:We have a few minutes. So and the questions we don't get to, the good news is you're gonna come back.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I'm gonna come back because I've got some great questions from um non-therapists who are like, I'm kind of interested in this. So the the so the call out was um for therapists or clinical supervisors, if you could hear experienced therapists or supervisors talk about anything related to the therapy world, the work, the profession, navigating practice, what would you be curious about? Broad questions or themes are perfect. Okay. And for non-therapists, if you've ever been curious about therapy or the world of therapists, how it works, what it's like, or what actually helps, what would you want to know more about? Okay. General questions. So for real listeners, also, if they're thinking about things, general things that they want to know. It doesn't have to be, you know, no personal stories or those kind of details needed. They're, you know, can still remain confidential and private for um for their experience. But people have all sorts of questions about therapists, right? So we would welcome those. So that's kind of the call out. Let me think about, let me just take a look at what some of the we could pick one. I think we have enough time for one client. Let's do one. Okay. This is from a non-therapist. Non-therapist? Non-therapist. How to support a client, a non-therapist slash has has had therapist training. Oh, okay. Currently is not working as a therapist. Got it. How to support a client who doesn't believe that therapy can help them because of the nature of the problems or their personality. Yep. How to support a client who doesn't believe that therapy can help them because of the nature of the problems or the personality. So embedded in that is this idea that this client will have tried many different things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Will have tried therapy routes, medication routes, lifestyle routes, like, and that there may be all sorts of complicating factors involved in that. And so they're coming as somebody who is not new to all of this. Right, right, you know, and have genuinely tried a variety of things. So, how do we support such a client who doesn't have a belief anymore that that could be helpful?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, this is at the crux of for me, it's like one of the great competitors to therapy, is just this belief that talking about it isn't going to help. Or I've already talked about it and it didn't help. And so I think if I'm answering this question, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts, but um, if I'm answering this question, I am honoring that resistance to say I resonate with this idea that talking about it doesn't feel all that helpful, especially if you've already tried to talk about it. But the difference in therapy, the real magic of therapy is having a real person who has a like real feelings sit across from you in a room or on a meeting over Zoom and say, what you're going through matters and you're not alone and having to go through it. And I really believe that's the power of therapy. And I think a lot of people don't realize how powerful that is until they get into the space. And so I'm often just sort of asking people for trust to say, listen, just give me this session. You're already here, just give me this session. And if at the end you think you got nothing out of it and you feel like you are doing well enough to do it on your own, I wish you well. I'm not, you know, I I'm not here to like force people into therapy. I I don't I don't love that kind of work. That would be very upstream for me. But I think there's so much value in holding space with people, even people who have resistance or unbelief. I'm not afraid of that. I would come in unbelieving. And I think we as therapists have to recognize the power that we have at the very beginning to help them see it. That would be my long-winded way. What would be your way of supporting people?
SPEAKER_01:Not so long-winded, you know. Okay, so I need to learn from you maybe. No, yours was not so long-winded. Oh, oh, yeah, no, no, it wasn't. It was pretty clear. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It felt like I was rambling for four minutes.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not looking at the clock. That's the I'm I I'm relying on you to look at the clock as part of that piece. So I would have to say, because I saw this question, I would have to say, I don't have a perfect answer to this. I wish I had a perfect answer to this. I don't have a perfect answer to this. And part of it is because although I can certainly appreciate there are ways that this person might be thinking that are informed by the very challenges that they're facing. Yeah. Right. So I'm not taking it as reality in the sense of therefore that means there, excuse me, therefore, that means there's nothing that can help you. That's clear. No, like I'm I'm mindful that because of the actual part that they're saying, the nature of their problems and the nature or their personality, I think there definitely could be parts where that's kind of informing these thoughts or assumptions that maybe that may come up. So I'm aware of that. And yet at the same time, I don't experience this writer as resistant. Yes. Uh-huh. I don't experience it as resistance.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe, maybe a little bit, but I I guess I frame it in a different way. And I just think if somebody tried so many things, yeah, and it wasn't helpful, then what could I do to support the client? So, yes, maybe I can come up with other ideas of things that could be helpful for them, right? Like maybe I can say, have you tried this, have you tried that, and kind of get into that? And there's room for that, but there's a humility that I would hope that I would have. Uh-huh. And there would be, I would have to hold a dialectic. I would have to hold a dialectic between really being able to sit with this person in their, you called it non-belief or unbelief, really, which we could just call hopelessness of that. Like hopelessness. Will I get will I will I get assistant with this? Yes. Right. So really, so on the one hand, really being able to sit with their hopelessness about that after trying whatever it is that they they had tried and their experiences, and really getting comfortable with that discomfort. I actually have the ability, like when we talk about our dominant pieces or non-dominant, I definitely have non-dominant pieces as the therapist that I'm that I'm working on. I do have a dominant piece that has the capacity to sit with people in this space. Yeah. However, it for me would be how do I sit in this space to really hear this client from a place of absolute humility? Yeah. I do not have all the answers. I really look to you, client, to be the expert in your life like this. And there's a reason you're thinking the way that you are. And there's there's validity to that experience. So to really be able to sit with that, that client being where they are. And then there's the other part of how to support them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I think that piece, it feels like there would be more than just active listening or validation. I'm talking for myself, not not your path with this client. I'm thinking about my path. Like it would, the dialectic would be it wouldn't, it would be more than validation, but I'm not quite sure what that would look like. I think maybe coming to what you offered of we can give this a chance, and that's all that we can do. So on the one hand, there'd be, I can sit with you at this, and this is true, and this is not resistance. This is you actually having a normal response to your experiences and to what's helped or not helped in the past. And in the other hand, is there a still way that we can sit here with the possibility? So maybe that's it. Maybe I would work on just opening just a small little area. If if we were somatic therapists, we talked about the finger, not the whole body, just the finger of possibility. And so I'm not going to get into what kind of modality or bottom up or top down. I'm not going to get into any of that because I don't know what this person's talking about. But if I could just both sit with them where they're at and also hold that space of having just a finger of possibility and share that with the client and look to where we can go from there, I think that's how I would start.
SPEAKER_00:I love your reframe. And I mean, I think we could keep talking about this and it's going to be time to go, but we're going to come back to it because I think the thing you're also talking about is offering a tiny finger of hope. I mean, because I think you know, when you think about this question, and if the person's rooted in this kind of hopelessness, that I don't have a lot of hope that this is going to work because in the past it hasn't. I've tried all the things, but that is a very hopeless space to be in. And so if you're talking about just offering a tiny bit of hope, even that is so therapeutic, even just on its own.
SPEAKER_01:From there we can see what happens. Yeah. From there, if they're willing to go on that journey together. Yeah. If they're open to at least that finger. At least that thing. And that would require, as a therapist, like all the humility that I could, all the humility in the world that I do not have answers for this client. Yes. And if I found myself, like I could see myself moving if we're talking about us as therapists. I could see how there might be an urge to like, oh, they've tried all these things, but maybe they haven't, and to find solutions or to want to alleviate some of that pain or distress. And that would call on unbelievable humility to be able to know that the client's done what they've done. They've done a lot of things. And I don't need to be that person for them right now. I don't need to go there. I need to be present with them in a very different way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay. So I want to answer all of the rest of the questions. And so there's 20.
SPEAKER_01:We can have like a whole year.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, we are going to have so many more. So we're going to call this part one.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I think we actually did this the last time or one of the times you came. It was like we did part one, part two. We did a part one, a part two, and we may need a part three.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So that's all good. Will you come back? I will absolutely come back.
SPEAKER_00:I love the fantasticism. It makes sense. It makes my heart so happy. And so for now, we're going to say, until you come back again.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:We're not even going to say, you know, goodbye. We're out of here. It's just when you come back. French. Au revoir.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow. That's until the next time.
SPEAKER_00:Until the next time. Until we're going to say that's cool. In English. I love your view.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. We au revoir. Adios. It's a meeting. We do it. We do it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Until next time. That's what we're going to do. Listener. Thank you, listener.
SPEAKER_01:Send your questions. Send your questions.
SPEAKER_00:Send your questions. Beth at MakeWords Matter for Good.com. We're here for 'em.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Take good care.
