Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 163: Therapy Without Silos with Essence and Emily
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Therapy collaboration gets praised constantly, yet most people never hear what it actually costs, what it risks, and what it can unlock for clients when it’s done with care. I sit down with Essence and Emily Deming-Rivers, two married licensed psychologists who collaborate inside the same practice, to talk through the real mechanics of integrated care: trust, confidentiality, informed consent, and the daily choices that keep therapy ethical and human.
We dig into why collaboration feels easier in residential treatment settings and why it can get messy in private practice. They name the practical barriers most clinicians feel but rarely say out loud: non-billable coordination time, financial pressure, and the fear that collaboration turns colleagues into competitors. From there we get concrete about how they do it differently, including transparent conversations with clients, asking permission before consulting, and even inviting the other therapist into a session for one targeted concept when it genuinely improves treatment.
Because they live and work together, they also share what happens when client crises hit and both partners carry the weight, plus the boundaries that protect their relationship and their clinical judgment. We talk about ethics as guardrails rather than handcuffs, why “playing telephone” can steal growth from clients, and how their combined perspectives support couples and families navigating ADHD differences, chronic illness, LGBTQ identity, and other intersectional realities. We close with where you can find them at Customized Behavioral Health Care and their organizational consulting work at Deming River Social Club focused on psychologically safe workplace culture.
If you care about better therapy outcomes, sustainable mental health work, and collaboration that doesn’t compromise consent, hit subscribe, share this with a colleague, and leave a review. What boundary or collaboration practice has helped you most?
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Welcome And What Collaboration Means
SPEAKER_00Hello, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, Dr. Beth Trennell. This is Things You Learn Therapy, and I am ready for today. I am so excited about today because we are going to have a very fun next 30 to 40 minutes together because I actually have two guests joining today, and they are sitting together on a little couch, and they have already finished one another's sentences and spoken in unison. And so we are just sort of giggling to ourselves about how this podcast is going to go. But I'm really excited about two guests who are here to talk about some of the nuances of collaboration in our field, but then how some of the nuances of collaboration show up when, you know, the people you're collaborating with are also the people that you live with. And so I'm excited about the ways in which we are going to talk about this. I think we talk more and more about collaboration, integrated care in our field. I think we are starting to get better at that. But I'm not sure we always talk about how sometimes it can be really tricky and it can be really hard to do, even though we know it is a great thing for clients. I think it can sometimes be a tricky thing for both clients and for us. So, Emily, in essence, um, introduce yourself to listeners and tell us something fun about each of you.
SPEAKER_01Um well, I'll start. I'm um Dr. Essence Deming Rivers, and I am a psychologist in my fourth, fifth or fourth year of practice. Um, I specialize with um multiply marginalized individuals. So I work a lot with people who are neurodivergent, um chronically ill or disabled, racial, sexual, gender minorities in general, and focus a lot on intersectionality and identity, kind of making a world that is not made for everybody more accessible to everybody. Um, so that is kind of my jam when it comes to therapy. And I would say something interesting about myself. I am really getting into like the it sounds funny when I say it out loud, actually. Um the kind of like analog movement of going back to like less digital things and more kind of like hands-on things. Um, so at present, I have collected a recorder, like the one you learn in fourth grade, a typewriter, a sewing machine. What else do we have in here? A record player. A record player, yeah. So like we are fully taking things. Um, and I do a lot of coloring. It's kind of like aggressive. So really trying to grow a lot focused and like in the moment.
SPEAKER_02So that's my hobby. And I'm Dr. Emily Deming Rivers. I'm also a licensed psychologist. I have been licensed for three years. I work primarily with the LGBTQ population. I support a lot of LGBTQ plus individuals in coming out, transitioning, coping with the world for what it is. And I also support a lot of parents of LGBTQ individuals who are maybe struggling to support or love their kids well, whether minors or adults. And I always tell parents that like if you can't be a hundred percent hell yes behind your kids, then come be a mess with me and I will figure out how to help you get there. Um, and I guess I kind of do the opposite of you. And I went tech. I am learning to DJ. Um, so that was like my Christmas present. That is like my fun activity now as I am learning how to DJ. So while you're with your record player, I'm over here with all of my tech.
SPEAKER_00I love this. What is the ultimate goal with the DJing? Are you gonna be like at all the the you know big parties, or are you like you're gonna be at your 80th grandparents' wedding anniversary?
SPEAKER_02I've been told that I need to be prepared to DJ all house parties. The um parties will be thrown and I will be expected to be DJing at all times.
SPEAKER_012027 is our hosting year, so we're giving her a year to get ready and then we are.
SPEAKER_00You better be ready. Listen, you've got a whole year. Get it. Let's go. My husband's family, when they um when they get together, they have several cousins or family members that um DJ. And so they kind of like I don't actually don't know. I'm gonna have to ask them how they make a decision because there's two of them that tend to um kind of take over the DJing role. And I wonder if they like arm wrestle for it, if they take it.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah.
Why Collaboration Changes Client Outcomes
SPEAKER_00I mean, it's it. I'm actually finding myself being intrigued by this question. I'm going to have to ask them how they make the decision about who's DJing what party here for it. Oh my goodness. Okay. Y'all have been in practice for a little bit here. And so can you start by just kind of uh sharing with folks about why um why collaboration kind of matters in the world of therapy in general?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think I can speak for kind of how we met was in a residential treatment facility. And so in residential, that collaboration and cooperative kind of nature of things is embedded. And so we were doing a lot of like group therapy together and a lot of like um we knew each other's individual therapy clients and different things like that. And so I think that when we were out of that setting and into like private practice, seeing individuals, it was kind of like a weird moment where we're like, wait a second, this big part of kind of how we work together is missing.
SPEAKER_02And like a big part of our training and our postdoc work was all family systems focused. And so it was everything, what happens in individual therapy is really important. And so much else is happening outside of that 45 minutes to an hour that can impact the work that you're doing. And I know like what a relief it was for me when we were working in the residential facilities. Like, if I had to be out that day or was going home or I was traveling, I knew that like essence had my clients covered and that if something was going on, I would know about it. And it was just like such a relief that I knew I was never gonna walk back in and be caught off guard by what had happened. And I think that like really set the tone of when you are in such a heavy collaborative environment, you never want to leave. Um, you never like want to go back to being so siloed. And I think mental health is so competitive in so many ways. It's so refreshing to have like a space where collaboration truly like benefits everybody.
SPEAKER_01I think the outcomes too are crazy different when you have multiple professionals and people like supporting one individual from multiple angles, you're less likely to miss things because you know, one person's style might evoke certain responses where another person's style gets other things. So then you get more of a holistic picture of what you're working with.
Why Collaboration Feels So Hard
SPEAKER_00I totally agree. I actually started, it's it's almost like if there's a residential facility in your community, working at a residential facility kind of early in people's careers just feels like it's almost like a rite of passage. So between community mental health, residential treatment, it just is really illuminating for folks to get just that taste of it. So, and obviously, collaboration is easy because you're working at the same space, you're sometimes on the same unit, that kind of thing. Maybe you could talk about why people don't then collaborate. What makes collaboration hard?
SPEAKER_01But you don't get paid for it.
SPEAKER_00Well, let's just lay that one right on out there, right? It's like this is not billable time to call the doctor's office or call the kid's teacher or talk to grandma who babysits on the weekend or whatever, right? Yeah. Okay. That one, yes. That matters.
SPEAKER_02100%. I think another thing that comes into like the making therapy work sustainable financially is the fear that you're gonna poach people's clients. I think that was something that we noticed as we moved into the private practice world, is like very few clinicians in the area we moved into wanted to talk to us or even set up a meeting as we were trying to like get our foot in the door and meet people and like build a network. And I think there's a lot of fear that there's not gonna be enough people or enough clients to make practices sustainable. And so the fear is like, if I bring you in a little bit, like will you come in and like take somebody from me or do you become a competitor rather than like an asset to my work?
SPEAKER_00I think those things are real, you know. I I think we don't want to necessarily talk about those and we think, oh, we're therapists and everybody's cute and kind and lovely. And it's like, you know, when you're trying to make sure you can make ends meet, sometimes it can feel very competitive, even in a helping profession.
SPEAKER_01When you're struggling and when things are, I mean, things are way more expensive and continuing to do so, insurance reimbursement, if you take that as a mess, a mess, yeah, and it's getting less. So there's like a lot of stress that goes on behind the scenes for therapists that wouldn't be shared with clients because it doesn't really have anything to do with them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, that being said, it definitely does not bring out the best in you when you are worried about those things. And so even though people, I'm sure, are like really loving and you know want to do kind things and be kind, when we are under stress, we are humans too. And it brings out that kind of competitive nature.
SPEAKER_00So when you describe the collaboration that you do and your practice and maybe your practice together, how do you describe that process for both um your clients? And you know, how do you not let it just be the thing that you're kind of always talking about or it just kind of takes over?
SPEAKER_01Full disclosure, we are this is a work in progress.
SPEAKER_02Um a thing that we are are learning how to do. Um, grad school never prepared us for. I think that was it was not in the classes that we were taking, like when it came to clinical work 101. This was collaboration was always talked about, I think, under like the role of supervision. Yeah. But like this is when you bring it to a supervisor, this is when you need support. But I don't think it was ever talked about as like not because there was a deficit, but because like somebody else could actually enhance what you're doing. And so a lot of the conversations for our clients, like are we pretty open about like who we are and what we are to each other. So like my clients know that that's my wife. And if I refer you, like I am referring you to my wife. Um, and I think it's a lot of detailed conversations, not just between us, but with our clients, about what informed consent is and like when do we talk to each other? And it's different because we're in the same practice. It's not like you, you know, there isn't some expectation that we can talk to each other about cases or get support, but it's a lot of conversations about okay, what do I bring to her? What do you feel comfortable comfortable for me to bring into like our work together? And all of our clients are super open, and I think like that is a testament to like the rapport that we have with them, is that they trust that nobody's gonna go behind each other's back so that we're not gonna use it to gossip, but we're actually gonna use it to like improve treatment.
SPEAKER_01I think there's also been times where, and like this isn't necessarily cases that we share, but there have definitely been times where I just like I do not know how to explain something in the way that I want to, but I know that she does. And I could sit there and try to like slip and trip over trying to get my explanation. But every once in a while I'll be like, hey, is it okay with you if I bring Emily in to explain this one concept? And she'll and people will say, like, yeah, totally, that'd be really helpful. So I'll be like, okay, this is the tiniest bit of what we're talking about. I need you to explain this one concept. And I think that the the trust that we have built and the kind of understanding each other's clinical brains has allowed us to be able to kind of like pop in to things and be useful and then pop out without that becoming like a thing.
SPEAKER_02And our brains work so differently. So different. Um we are pretty polar opposites in how we like intake and process information and like how we even our training areas were so different in the theoretical orientations we were taught. Yeah, I was very like our my program was like humanistic, psychodynamic, like touchy feely. Mine was behavioral with like maybe a splash of CB like cognitive thrown in there if we were lucky, but it was like heavy behavioral. And so we approach things very differently. And I think that is so helpful when I talk through things with her because she gives me another angle that I probably would never have thought of on my own.
Ethics As Guardrails Not Handcuffs
SPEAKER_00I love that you're really attributing it to both the trust process and the informed consent process. You know, I spent a lot of time with my graduate students helping them really understand informed consent. I think I've experienced informed consent in a terrible way as, you know, like a person. Informed consent is not just this document we want them to sign so I can cover my ass. You know, it's like this is supposed to be at the foundation of our relationship is that you understand the role that I'm gonna play and you can develop trust in the work that we're gonna do together and me as a human who's gonna share space with you. I just think the informed consent process, when it's done well, is just at the cornerstone of everything we do from there on out.
SPEAKER_01For sure. Yeah. And I remember going to a hospital and they gave me the informed consent, and it was like they wanted me to fill out a release of information that was blank that they could use whenever. And I was like, no. And they got kind of like upset with me because you know, normally you just kind of do whatever. But I think that in so many different fields, informed consent is kind of it's sped over because it's not the actual work, but I think that it really does lay the foundation for trust and that kind of thing, which is not really negotiable when you're working with people's lives.
SPEAKER_00And their stories, you know, that they have protected and you know, the things that they've never shared, you know. I think about that vault that everyone has of things that that therapists get the privilege of being able to like be, you know, to walk alongside folks. And the other thing that I think happens in training and and basically our field in general, ethics become something to fear. So, you know, as you all are talking about the work you're doing, what I'm thinking the whole time is like, man, if I were one of your clients, I would be like, Yes, bring her in, like two people for one, yes, I want to hear from her, you know, like, and that's not to say that I don't trust you essence, right? But it's like, man, if you think, hey, I think that this could be better for your treatment. And and so I'm thinking about how powerful I'm sure your clients find that to be. And then I'm thinking about the people who out in the world are like, oh, well, ethically, you know, it's like no, you know, I that's what I mean, you know, that I think sometimes people get all nervous about the ethics of all the things, and myself included, right? I have been in moments where I'm like, oh my gosh, ethically am I allowed to look them up on Facebook.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's like you just get this like yeah, but I think like the ethics are there, like in theory, right? To protect those like five principles, one of them, like the most important being do no harm. And so if I think about it, like if I had an intervention that I could use that would be way better and I chose not to, that it's not harmful, I guess, directly, but it's not as helpful as I can. Yeah. And so, like, I think that when we are like looking through the lens of ethics, yes, we absolutely need to like be responsible with things and recognizing that like at the core of what we're doing is to make people's lives easier, better, and like more fulfilling. And if we're not doing that, or if we're not using all of the tools that we possibly could, then like we're selling them short. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm forever telling my clients that she is my favorite psychologist. And so, like, why would I not bring the work from like my favorite person and my favorite therapist into the space if I think it is going to be like beneficial to the work that we are doing? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think all of us are saying obviously ethics exists and we follow the ethical guidelines. And I think I'm suggesting that sometimes we get so rigid in thinking that there's only one way to do therapy, and that's how somebody else told us we're supposed to do it. The ethical guidelines exist as those guardrails to make sure that we're not doing harm and we're doing good and we're seeking justice and all those things. And also there are a lot of ways that we can do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we can be creative without being like harmful, exactly, exactly.
Shared Clients And Confidentiality Limits
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay, I love that. Now that sounds great, you know. We're like talking about how lovely it is and how amazing that if I could invite my favorite psychologist in, yes, I would love that, you know what I mean? And be like, yes, but there have got to also be some obstacles or some moments where I think essence you you kind of so lovingly put it, like we're still working it out, you know, we're still kind of a work in progress. And so what that suggests is that maybe it's not always sunshine and rainbows to perhaps maybe one of you needs to earmuff or something, you know, when we talk about working together every day of our lives, and you know, hey hun, can you come in for this one session? Here's this moment, you know, like there's parts that I'm sure you love, and that's what we've kind of talked about. And what are some of the parts that maybe people don't talk about how hard it is to either do this collaborative work, um, you know, your partner and or facing some of the challenges, even maybe the things that we just kind of talked about in terms of maybe some of the haters there.
SPEAKER_01One of the hardest things has been, and like this was I think this is the same when you work with people in general and like you have a team approach, is when a client or like a family is going through it, it is not when we're working together, we're both going through it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So when we have a client crisis or we have, you know, somebody get hospitalized or a relationship breakdown or any of those things. Um, that doesn't just affect one of us, it affects both of us. Um, and so we've had a couple of the what, like the past December, November was a rough time for families in our practice. Um in that kind of situation, it does how does it not affect us? Yeah, right. So when we're both like, oh, okay, today was a rough day, and I saw these people today, and now you're gonna see them tomorrow. So tomorrow's a rough day. And so I think kind of being able to put up boundaries between like how we are feeling because of the people that we are helping in the work we are doing, and then how we can support one another, even though we're going through the same exact thing, is tough.
SPEAKER_02I think we share like so the way that our client load splits out sometimes is like I'll see a couple and she'll see an individual from the couple, or we'll both see two individuals that are in a relationship together, or some kind of breakup of like families and things like that. And when it becomes difficult is because we have those kind of like interwoven relationships. If something challenging happens that like she's unaware of, but I am, I can't come to consult with her about it because that information is not information that she has been privileged with yet. And so in that same vein, I have a great collaborator, but I have lost my ability to consult until she gets caught up and like that your therapeutic relationship gives you that information, and that becomes difficult. Is now like I've had this person kind of like in the trenches with me, and now it's like, okay, well, I just gotta like sit and kind of like twiddle my thumbs until you get this information too, and then we can come back to like that collaboration piece.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, I love this because I think this is the part that I mean, I know in collaborating with other colleagues when you are going through it together, and even though you may have a release of information to be exchanging information, that which is allowed by that form is not always what's best clinical treatment. It's technically legal ethical to share information back and forth, but it's also still so critical to keep that clinical lens on to say, okay, this isn't what's best yet, to share this type of information and it may never get shared. And that can be that line of whenever you're collaborating. I I have found that that's the hardest part for me is just making sure I'm sharing enough that we can continue to collaborate well together, but then also maintaining the confidentiality of my client because that that relationship also matters, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think one of the things that both of us kind of say and carry is that our goal is to become irrelevant in our clients' life. Like we want to be fired. That is the whole point of the job. And so I think that another piece that if you're not intentional about it, you can run into is like playing telephone. And then clinicians are actually like doing the work instead of the client. And like a big part of some of the things that people bring to us is. Is trying to advocate for themselves or share their experience. And so it makes a lot more sense to empower them and say, like, I think you should maybe talk about that in couples therapy. Do you know how? Like, can I can I help you? Do you want to write out a script or something like that? And kind of empowering them. And then sometimes it's kind of like, hey, just so you know, this is something that's going to be hard for them, that they're gonna they're gonna bring something up. It's hard, but we worked on it. So hang in there with them. Yeah. And kind of setting each other up to be a good experience as people are learning new skills without like stealing the thunder or like sharing the message and taking that opportunity away from them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And something that's hard too is being able to like set the boundary between us, like us, and be like, hey, this stuff that you're starting to give me is not helping my work. Like, I'm now like I have a different perspective than I had, or like now I like it's fine. I'm finding it harder to be as neutral as I need to be in those sessions. And so, like in a loving and kind way, being like, please stop talking. I don't become this as possible anymore. And being able to do that in a way that does not damage both like our personal relationship and our professional relationship, too, because it's that would be a hard conversation to have with any coworker. And then for us to like walk downstairs and go cook dinner after that is a whole nother layer.
SPEAKER_00It really is a whole nother layer. And it's cute to think that you leave work at work and you have home at home. But I think the message that I know I wasn't taught as as much in grad school. And I know I'm hearing things from you all too that it's like, oh, I'm just gonna come in as a blank slate and I'm not gonna like none of that's real, you know? Like it's just really almost impossible. I I mean, I'm not good at it. So uh if listen, if you're listening and you want a blank slate therapist, do not look me up. Frankly, I'm not taking clients anyway. But anyway, so I just think the real value in therapy is the connection to the therapist, both as the professional, but also as a person. And so I just think about that. It sounds so cute to like, well, just have a boundary and you know, you guys can just leave it upstairs or whatever. Like, yeah, that's hard to do, y'all, right? Yeah, yeah.
Keeping Work From Taking Over Home
SPEAKER_01It was cute when we so when we first moved here, we actually lived with Emily's parents for a little bit. And so we were working from home, and your mom was actually working from home too, and she works in like a completely different field. So we would all kind of gather at the end of the day and she's like, How was your day?
SPEAKER_02And we're both like, no, it's good. Like it was bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but because of the the necessity of confidentiality and that kind of thing, we never really like aired it out there because we were with people that were not in the practice. So when we moved into our own house, it was a confidential space, it was just us. And we realized really quickly that if we weren't careful, that whole like day would come into our dinner, would come into our like evening times. And then like it's 11 p.m. and we've only worked since the morning unintentionally. So I think it is really challenging when you have the ability to consult all the time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it puts everybody in a position to you want to talk about it because like our brains need time to process, and how you know, I think I said earlier our brains work so differently, how we process is very different too. And some of like sometimes we're more delayed than the other person, or like we're sitting there and something like brings up a thought, and now we're like, oh, like I forgot to tell you this about like this TV show, and we're like, Oh, my session! Right. And then it's hard when like we would get into conflict about those boundaries, and now we like went to bed and like we're not on like in the best headspace, and then we get up and now we have to go back and collaborate again. We like we go back into that same position that created conflict, you know, just the night before.
SPEAKER_00I wish that I could tell my students that, you know, at the end of the day, I never thought about my clients again throughout the week. You know, I wish I could tell folks that that, you know, you can walk out of your therapy office and never think about your clients. But the truth is the power of what we do is if we do it with care, it means we're spending a little bit of time preparing for the next session or thinking about what would be impactful for the next session and putting pieces together from the last four sessions. And you do some of that when the client's sitting in front of you, but you also do some of that when the client's not sitting in front of you. And when you have the opportunity to have a process for kind of formulating those ideas with another person who's also treating them, I can imagine being like, yeah, they're getting six extra hours a week of two highly educated brains coming together if you're not like having some sort of structure or boundary around, okay, we're just gonna have to table that. We're gonna have to just like put that one there. I can imagine it's even more important for you all to have some sort of structure or boundary to it's off, we're off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well dinner, dinner, yeah. We have kind of set the expectation in our house that we like come down, we'll like finish the day, we'll shower, we'll come down and like have dinner. And then the minute we get up from the dinner table is the minute we have to stop talking about work. And so, like, work just exists at the dinner table, but as soon as like the butt's off the seat, we don't get to talk about it again. And I think that was something that has been really we've been doing it for like almost a year. Over a year, over a year now, and that has been incredibly helpful in what in being able to like protect ourselves as people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you know, every once in a while there will be times like in between sessions where you know, one of us might have like a challenging session coming up, but the other one just saw somebody and like needed to consult. And we kept running into that too, where we were kind of like eating up our break time, consulting. And so we ended up like developing a system kind of in our Google Drive thing that our practice uses to keep track of the like mutual families, and so it was like instead of us kind of dumping in between sessions or wherever, we have a place where we're writing down the things that each other needs to know. You can check it when you need that information, and otherwise, like it's not there. And I think learning how to best communicate with each of our brains and also with each of our like capacities took some time. Um, but I would say that we're much better now than we were when we first started. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So earlier I was talking about haters, and I think there are a lot of haters to like, why would you want to work with your family or your partner? Like, I just need a break from them, you know? Those are the kind of haters I'm wondering. What do you say to those folks?
SPEAKER_01I mean, they don't have to do it.
SPEAKER_00I just love how simple. It's so funny. It's interesting that, like, Emily, you were trained as a behavioralist or like from a behavioral mindset, but like so many of Essence's response today have been like uh just like such simple behavioral responses.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's you can see the evolution of like our thoughts and things you were to look back at us a couple years ago. I'm far more touchy feely than I was run out of show.
SPEAKER_00I love that influence. Okay, but I and I do love the simple response of like you ain't gotta do it.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that there is something for everybody, and one of the things that is like the most harmful is when we start to take away people's individuality because we lose options. And like when we are able to show up, like I am a very like unique blend of identities and I recognize that. And if I don't like hold those out, then there's not much that people are getting from me that they couldn't get from a white, straight, not uh able-bodied like individual. And so I think that in the same way that like the individual therapy process needs to look different. I think that the collaborate, like collaboration looks different. A lot of our clients, the people that tend to come to both of us for whatever reason, I don't know if it's the relationship or whatever, um, but they are super open. Um, we have had the opportunity to do a couple like couples intensives where we see like the individual um clients, and then we'll do an intensive where they have both of us, both of their individual therapists, in a room collaborating. And we there's one couple that I think about because we kind of came up with some activities for them to do, and almost every session, they're like, it reminded me of that activity that we did. And it's just like you cannot create what that created in a different way, and we know that. And so I think like everybody has their style, and that is ours, and we are very open and transparent about that being the style that we're utilizing, and it hasn't happened yet. But if somebody were to say, like, no, I don't want to do that, then we say, Okay, and we find the next best way in our perspectives to do it. Um, so we're not like forcing people, but I think that it we should be able to give people options and use that informed consent and they can choose their treatment.
SPEAKER_02And we always tell, like, we say when we like market ourselves is we're not for everybody because we don't want to be for everybody, but we want to be for the people who really want to work with us. And regardless of like if I collaborate with her as a professional, my clients are still gonna hear about my wife and I'm gonna bring in tools that she has created and handouts, like she is the handout queen. So, like, I'm forever having Dr. Essence branded materials in my sessions. I'm sure my clients are sick of it by now. But I think it's um regardless of whether or not she is involved in like a part of the informed consent and like we are collaborating in real time, or she has helped me develop my skills in some way, or I've helped you develop skills in some way, the influences that we have on each other are still going to be present. And I think that is part of when people pick us as their therapist, is that they are picking not only who we are as individuals, but like our full education, and that is part of what we bring, I think, to our sessions, and people pick us for that.
SPEAKER_00My husband was um invited to join a board, and the board meetings are obviously kept confidential, but they have kind of dinners associated with their board meeting, and they invite the partners to come. And they I think about the value that a partner brings. And it just is like of course, even if we're not in the same profession, right? So y'all are in the same profession, you're in the same work, and you're kind of collaborating together to be the best therapist together for your clients. And I think Emily, what I really loved about what you said is like clients pick us, so it's like they kind of know when you kind of describe who you are, they're getting the best of both of you. And I think about that as other couples who work together and how powerful that is because often when couples are together, they're together for a reason. Like one part complements the other part of the couple. And so I just think it's so powerful to imagine that this could be just such an incredible experience for people who otherwise may have a very narrow idea about what therapy is supposed to be.
Using Lived Experience To Help Couples
SPEAKER_01I think it's also like there are not a lot of people that share certain experiences. Like we recognize that. So, like, I have a chronic illness and Emily does not. I have ADHD and Emily is neurotypical, Emily is white, I am biracial. Like, we have um all of these kind of differences that we have had to learn how to blend in our relationship, and this is actually like kind of how this came to be was our lived experience was reflected in the people we were seeing. And I like one of the couples I'm thinking about, like I was seeing one of the uh partners, and I was like, Oh my gosh, every problem that you are describing that you and your spouse are having are things that we have navigated. I wonder if your partner saw my partner, how that would go. And we were like, whoa, this is huge because we understand and we've had that talk about these things. So we understand each other's perspectives and that kind of thing. And so I think that being able to share that lived experience also shines a light on some of the experiences that like are not a manualized treatment. There's not a manualized treatment for how to get along with your ADHD partner who is getting on your nerves because they can't tell time, but like we know how to do it because we've had to figure it out, and now we get to help other people to do that same thing.
SPEAKER_02We'll walk out of intakes and be like, oh, I have a you or I have a me. And we know like what the when you boil it down, like there's so many similar like problems that keep showing up over and over and over again that it's like okay, we're getting really good at not only helping people like live as individuals, but it goes back to that systemic mindset of like we not only have to help you feel like you, but also feel like you in all the spaces you inhabit. And those are their families and their relationships and work. And there's so many places where people don't always get to feel like them that therapy is a space point blank, like in our therapy spaces where you should always feel like you, and our goal is always to help you extend it out to like those environments where you're spending the majority of your time in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you want to feel you want to leave feeling more like you than you came in and like for that to continue. Yeah.
Where To Find Them And Closing
SPEAKER_00I feel like I wanted to ask you, like, okay, what's one last thing you want to share? But like that was such a good last thing to share. Yeah. It really was. It really was just like kind of the moment to be like, yes, we want more of that in the world where people can feel safe and seen and to be able to go out into the world as the version of who they are, like at the core. Like, let's just keep doing that. More of that. Yes. Okay. Okay. Well, listen, I love both of you. I am so glad you both said yes to coming today. And um, how can people find you and the work you're doing when they want to look you up?
SPEAKER_02So we have two kind of like primary ventures. We do private practice. Um, so we're we both see individual families and couples at customized behavioral health care. Um, we're both licensed in Florida and accredited through SciPact. So we can see people, it's up to I think it's like 43 or 43 states, there's a lot of states. Um, so we do a lot of our individual work there. And then we also started a consulting business. It's called Deming River Social Club. Um, and we work with nonprofits and organizations in creating psychologically safe organizational cultures. So if your culture is not safe, inclusive, affirming, or retaining staff the way you want it to retain staff, then we come in and help revamp the systems and make sure that the people who are providing support and care for everyone else are able to sustain the work that they're doing.
SPEAKER_00I am so excited for you and your clients and the work you're doing. I love your branching out into organizational stuff. I think despite where some things feel like they're headed, I think there are always gonna be people who value great leaders. I think there's always gonna be great leaders who know the value of creating psychologically safe spaces.
SPEAKER_01And everybody the consequences of not doing that.
SPEAKER_00Right. I I love that. I love that, I love that work. Okay, so amazing. I am so happy to be able to share some space with both of you, and I love the work you're doing. So I yeah, listener, thank you for being here also. And hopefully, you learned some great nuggets and felt empowered in some way. And until next time, stay safe and stay well.
