Ep164: Who Do You Become When You Scroll? with Nicole McNelis

Social media can connect parents to real support and still leave us feeling exhausted, behind, and strangely ashamed. We sit down with therapist, perinatal mental health specialist, educator, and mom rage researcher Nicole McNelis to name what’s actually happening to parents when the scroll becomes a reflex. No scare tactics, no moralizing, just a grounded conversation about why this topic feels so intense and why your brain can start treating curated content like truth.

We dig into the comparison trap that hits when a friend’s highlight reel sits next to polished parenting influencer content, and how that mash-up can distort what we think “normal” should look like. Nicole breaks down the difference between relatable influencer marketing and expert-driven content, how both styles monetize parenting fear, and why dramatic promises can make you feel like the problem when your kid is simply being a kid. We also talk about critical thinking skills for the feed, including “magic show thinking” that helps you remember what you’re seeing is produced, selective, and designed to pull you in.

You’ll leave with practical strategies for a healthier relationship with social media: using an intentional pause to name your real need, choosing replacement behaviors that regulate your nervous system, adding friction to reduce mindless use, and building simple household boundaries that help kids and adults alike. If you’ve ever thought, “Why can’t I keep up?” this conversation brings you back to self-compassion and a plan you can actually live with. Subscribe, share with a parent friend, and leave a review with the screen habit you’re working on right now.

This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast

If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.

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Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello, listener. Welcome back. I'm your host, Dr. Beth Cromo, and this is Things You Learn in Therapy. I am glad you are taking some time out of your day to listen in today. I always look forward to talking to my guests today. Ms. Nicole is here. She's back for what feels like maybe the fifth time. I should have gone back and um checked. I think it may be the fifth time, and I am excited to hear what's going on. And also, I wanted to bring up too that it feels like about a year ago, was it about a year ago, you were just getting ready to kind of get started in the mom work, or has it been long mom rage work? Two years. Two years ago. Two years. Okay. So it's been two years. Wow, time work, right? It's been two years where you were sort of like, oh gosh, I've, you know, never done this whole like conference presentation thing. And now you are just taking over the world and talking about it at these conferences and really empowering so many moms. And so, Nicole, I'm so glad that you said yes to coming back. We're not going to talk about mom rage, but if you are interested in mom rage, um, Nicole has been on before talking about mom rage. Go check out that episode. I will link it in the show notes as well. But I'm sure we're going to overlap with some of this mom rage with our topic today. But I'm so happy you're here. So tell us a little about you and tell us something fun that's going on. Maybe it's related to mom rage. Maybe it's not.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Yeah. So, Beth, thank you so much for having me back. I'm so excited to be here. We always have the best conversations. Um, so a little bit about me. So I am a licensed professional counselor in Pennsylvania in the greater Philadelphia area. I have an award-winning private practice, which is pretty exciting, where I specialize in perinatal mental health. Uh, and then in addition to the work that I do in my practice, um I am a mom. I always tell my kids that my the work that I do, that they are the biggest inspiration for the work that I do in perinatal mental health and also around also around mom rage, which they're just thrilled about when I say that. They they love that. Um so in addition to my clinical work, I do quite a bit of speaking and writing and legislative advocacy. And then in addition to that, I just took on a role as a part-time faculty member at Villanova University, which is really exciting. And I really love it. I'm currently teaching a counseling for women class, which is um, you know, right in my area of specialization. And um I know that you are a professor, Beth, and I have to say it has been, it's been really inspiring, right? Because I'm I'm working with the the next generation of counselors, and every time I, you know, I see them twice a week, and every time I see these students, I think, we're doing okay. We're in, we're in good hands. They're so engaged with the content and they're it's just it's wonderful. So that's been a really amazing experience. Um, and then like you mentioned, I essentially, so mom rage has become my area of specialization, and uh, I basically talk about rage all of the time, nonstop, to therapists, to moms, to anyone who will listen to me, to me talk about it. Um, and I'm also I'm also now a researcher. So as you know, um there are huge gaps in the research in terms of women's mental health and particularly maternal mental health, and definitely around the topic of mom rage. We just don't have enough academic research. And so I am now partnering with the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, um, and we're working on an active research project uh on mom rage, which is pretty exciting, and we're hoping to submit it for publication this year, which is amazing. We're now um we're wrapping it up. And so, so yeah, so that's really exciting. So it has been, it has been a whirlwind of two years. And Beth, you're absolutely right. Your podcast was the first place that I ever kind of spoke about mom rage out loud in an educational way. We talked before my first big conference presentation, and it was a test run for me. And now I've been uh talking about it nonstop and doing research on it and writing about it, and um, it has been quite a journey. Uh, and so when I think of an interesting fact about me or a fun fact about me, in the last week, just in the last week, I have been talking about mom rage. I had three different events in three different states across two time zones uh and on two opposite coasts. So it has been a very, you're catching me at the very end of a super busy seven days, but it was really exciting, and all of the events were at or over capacity. So moms and therapists and therapist moms are wanting to talk about mom rage. And we're gonna talk about social media today and the impact that that has on parents. And we'll also, you know, I'll weave in some mom rage. We'll also talk about the intersection of social media and mom rage because there is it very much collides uh pretty violently.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

So I mean, it is not, it is not for you know, no reason that it's called mom rage. And now we're gonna talk about it. But I love all of this and congratulations to you. One of the things that stands out to me in kind of you talking about this journey over the last two years is how brave you were to kind of step out of this role as kind of therapist in my comfy spot on my couch or my chair and doing my individual work. And there is nothing wrong. That's a beautiful job and a beautiful occupation, and that work is so, so valuable. And I also know how brave you have to be to step out into that. And I remember the conversation we had before we started recording that first mom rage episode where you were like, You said, you know, this is my test run. I am, it's uncomfortable for me to do this. And just bravo to you, Nicole. I'm so proud of you and the work you're doing and how much it matters and how much it's impacting women across the world. And so I love that for you.

Taking Healthy Risks Over Time

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And I appreciate the the opportunity to talk to you and to talk to your audience and to really step into an educator role. I'm really enjoying it. And yeah, I think, you know, we're kind of regardless of someone's chosen career or whether they're, you know, still a student, you know, it it really taking those healthy risks, you know, even if you don't feel ready, you just have to be ready enough. That's what I've learned. You just have to be ready enough to take that next step. And then you see how it goes, and you kind of do this data gathering, and then you decide what the next step after that is. And so that's what I encourage my students to do. That's what I encourage my client, my clients to do and my colleagues. It's like, okay, so if you're thinking about something that feels risky, but it's a healthy risk, what's like what's the next step? So when I was thinking about presenting at conferences and kind of moving into the educational space in this field, my first step was, well, I have to submit a proposal and then we'll see how it goes. I didn't know how it would go beyond that. And so I really think that that's an important lesson. It's like you just gotta take the next step. Yep. And then you can figure out the next thing after that, right? And I'm a planner, so I do have plans years in advance, but before that, you just gotta get to the next step. And so I've definitely I've learned that lesson and taken it to heart. And now tell anybody that will listen, just figure out the next step and then can see where it goes from there.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I loved the episode we recorded on Mom Rage, I think. It was so powerful. And I know that, you know, part of what we wanted to chat about today is um social media and its impact on parents and parenting. And so I know, you know, before we kind of got started, we were talking about how we do spend a lot of time. We've done a lot of digging in about how social media impacts kids, how it impacts teenagers. And I think we're having kind of less conversations around how it impacts parents and our parenting. And so I'm excited to have this pretty open conversation because I think you know, you and I are both parents, and we are both raising kids in this era of social media. And so I think this is gonna be a really interesting conversation from both a clinical perspective and kind of a personal perspective. So, yeah, where should we begin here with this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

I think we can begin with the idea that we are not gonna be having this conversation in like a judgy way, right? Oh, I love that start.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

That's a good start.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Yeah, this is not about judgment. And one, because we're therapists, right? And so we like curiosity because curiosity opens things up and judgment shuts things down. So this isn't gonna be a conversation about, you know, get off all social media because it's bad and shut off all your devices, right? As clinicians and as parents, this is a huge part of our lives. And so it's important at a minimum to be aware of what is going on in social media because even if you're not on social media as a clinician or as a parent, it's for clinicians it's coming up in the therapy room, or as parents, it's gonna come up with your kids or in your parenting circles, right? So we have to kind of be aware of what is going on at like a very, very minimal level, right? And then we can look at this is actually a very nuanced conversation. Like most things, social media has aspects that are we can label as unhealthy and bad, or like, you know, not as good for us, um, not as productive. But then there are pieces of it that actually can be helpful, that actually can be good. You know, for example, Beth, you and I met over social media. That is how we originally connected. That is how I've connected with so many colleagues across the country and all over the world, is through social media we wouldn't have met otherwise. So social media can be this conduit for connection. It really can. Yeah. And then on the flip side, it as a parent, it can add to overwhelm and overstimulation and feeling like you're not living up to expectations. So it is very, very much a both and. And I think what's important to recognize is as parents, we can figure out a way to engage with social media that feels healthier, that feels more productive, right? Where we can become critical consumers and curate our feeds and take breaks. Like we can do things to manage this part of our life so that it doesn't feel so out of control. I think that's when social media feels especially bad, is when it feels out of control, when it feels like the scrolling is in control of you rather than you being in control of the scrolling and you're in control of what you're posting and you're in control of what you're consuming. And so that's where I'd like to start the conversation today is that this is going to be a really open and honest conversation that is really going to refrain from judgment. That's not where we're going with this. We're going with this thing is a big part of our lives, you know, social media is. And so, how do we manage it? How do we contend with this thing in a way that maybe could feel a little bit better?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

You know, today is not about Beth Ornicle telling you how you should live your life with social media. I think this is about offering ideas so that you as the listener can decide what sort of feels right for you in your life. Because I think I think that we do sort of get into trouble when we think, well, there's only one right way to do any kind of parenting for that matter, right? I think today is about us offering some ideas that are grounded in our clinical expertise, grounded in uh, you know, the research that we know about. And so um, then I think as the listener, you get to decide what really feels right for you and um the way you want to parent.

A No Judgment Approach To Social

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And you mentioned comparison. That is a great place for us to start this conversation. So, one of the ways that many parents find social media to be really challenging and honestly discouraging, disheartening is this idea that I look at social media and I immediately start comparing myself to other parents in my circle. But also the really almost bizarre thing about social media is that I can also compare myself to celebrities. I can also compare myself to mom and parent influencers, right? Suddenly I have access to what seems like other people's inner lives. It's usually not, especially if it is somebody that does that as a profession, where they're an influencer or parenting expert and they're putting out content that is essentially their job, right? That is how they make their living. But that is one of the really odd things about social media is you can see, you know, kind of juxtapose, right? A picture of your friend's new baby. And also then the next thing on your feed can be, you know, a mom influencer, trad wife that's making cereal from scratch. Right. And when I say cereal from scratch, I don't mean what I consider cereal from scratch, which is I pull that thing from the pantry, I put it in a bowl, and then I put milk on it. We're talking, right? You know what I'm talking about? Yes. Yes, in their field, and then they they grind them the wheat. I don't even know what the next steps are. What do you do after that? Then you mix it with some things, you roll out the like that's what I'm talking about, right? But that's like real content that's out there that is, and we're laughing about it. But it like what when you see that over and over again, it really makes you feel like, well, then why am I not making cereal from scratch? Why don't I have time to make my kids food like that? And when that content, right, that aspirational content, right, is right next to, oh, here's my friend's kid playing baseball, right? It becomes, it like confuses our brains. We think, like, oh, this is all everybody's reality, that I'm getting these little snippets of it. So it must all be real, it must all be true. I'm gonna take it all at face value because it's overwhelming. And so our brains just lump all of that content into like essentially this idea of oh, this is exactly what's really going on in people's lives because that's how it's being sold to us. And it's confusing and it's overwhelming and it's exhausting, and it really takes a toll on us as parents. And when you're comparing yourself to, you know, like the professional, aspirational parenting information that's out there, parenting content that's out there. But also, you know, for the most part, most people, so most of your acquaintances and friends and whoever else you follow on social media, for the most part, usually those people are putting out the good pieces of their life, also, right? It's curated content. They're putting out the best little snippets, right? There is a whole category of, um, we can talk about the different categories of content, but there is a whole category of like it's it's like hot mess mom content, right? So there is an entire category of like, oh, you know, my house is such a mess. Isn't this so interesting, or isn't this so funny, or it's okay to be like that? That really exists, but I think for the most part, what most people are encountering and most moms are encountering is not that. They're encountering the professional aspirational content and also the aspirational content in their own friend and you know, work circles. So, you know, and when you're seeing that all the time, you're just feeling you're beating yourself up. You're feeling like, you know, why can't I live up to that? Why can't I go on that sort of vacation with my family? Why didn't I get that award at work? Why didn't my kid get student of the month or whatever it might be? And, you know, it feels pretty awful.

Comparison Traps And Curated Reality

SPEAKER_00 17:21

I think that this for me is one of the greatest dangers of social media. We don't actually pause to have awareness that our brains believe everything it's everything it sees. The brain believes what it sees. And so when I look, this all must be real, it all must be true. Even though like you're listening now and you're like, well, I know social media is not real, but what your brain doesn't pause to think with each scroll is well, that's not real. Well, that's not real, well, that's not real, well, that's not real. You just see all these pictures, all these images, and your brain is taking it all in. And you know, I started to think about like if if we gave our brains the capacity to um like think critically, like when you're watching a magic show, you know, it's like we need magic show thinking where our brain is saying, wait a minute, that thing just disappeared. I know that's not true. My brain sees it, it sees it missing, but I know that's not true. But I don't we don't ever slow down enough. And I think that that's I think for me, that is one of the hardest things as a parent, as a mom, that social media does to me. I I know it does it to me. And I find that if I don't pause during the scrolling, it does impact my mood. It does impact my level of energy, it impacts my thought processes. And so I really think we're touching on something here that folks having greater awareness of and then strategies toward figuring out what it is that you need to do so that you don't find yourself in that situation where your brain really is believing everything it sees.

Your Brain Believes The Scroll

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah, so you're already diving into what can be a super helpful strategy, really taking some intentional pauses, either before you're getting on social media and starting your scroll, or even during and definitely after, you know, to kind of reflect. So taking an intentional pause before you're deciding to get on social media and examining, you know, what is your why? You know, what are you because there's a reason that we're getting on social media. There's a reason there's that pull and it's so attractive. And so thinking about why am I getting on social media right now? Part of it could just be habit. We're so used to, oh, I have, you know, five minutes of downtime. I'm just gonna hop on social media and do a quick scroll, right? It's super convenient. For a lot of parents, it's decompression. If you are looking for an escape and looking for, you know, some, you know, like that mindless scrolling, like there's nothing wrong with that. But it's important to recognize that that's what you are looking for. And if you are, again, not feeling in control of your social media usage, if you're recognizing, oh, the reason that I'm doing this is because I need some downtime, I need some decompression, you can then use a replacement behavior and say, oh, maybe I can read a book or watch a show on TV or, you know, go in the bathroom and hide for five minutes, right? Whatever, or listen to some songs in my car that I want to listen to, or sit in silence if you have the opportunity, right? There are so many things you can do to decompress as a parent, but you have to first recognize that that actually is what you're looking for, right? So that's the important first step is doing that acknowledgement. Like, hey, this is the reason that I'm using this tool, that I'm using this thing to decompress, but I don't want to. I just feel pulled to. So then you can replace it with something else. So for example, something that I do because I know that's something I don't like engaging in, but I found myself engaging in was the scrolling before bed. And so now I put, you know, my phone is out of reach when I go to bed, and I get my Kindle with my backlight that I absolutely love. And now I can read in bed with the lights off, and I'm somebody that can read until they fall asleep. Like, and it is so I can feel my nervous system slowing down, right? I can feel myself engaging with whatever book that I'm reading, right? I can feel it kind of taking up my brain space in a way that just feels so calming. And it feels I can feel that decompression, I can feel that escape because I'm escaping into that story. And that feels like a really nice way to end my day and to fall asleep. And so again, not judgment, but I was noticing, oof, when I scroll before bed, it doesn't feel great. It keeps me up. I am not comfortable with this. And so then I used a replacement behavior where it's like, I like reading before bed and to let me read a book instead of reading on my phone. And that became a much better way to engage with my nighttime routine.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I'm just kind of pulling these pieces together, kind of in my own life, but also wondering if other folks are maybe pulling this together too. So you said one thing that you might do in an intentional pause before you open social media, before you start engaging, is ask yourself, reflect on your why. And it's so intriguing to me because I think most people, and this is just about the tremendous, I haven't done research, but I think most people would say the reason they're on social media at all is why. What what what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Because that's where the other people are.

unknown 23:11

Yeah.

Pause And Name Your Why

SPEAKER_00 23:12

I think that's what most people would say. Most people would say, like, you know, I I like the connection that I get, you know, to be with other people, right? And so the interesting part is that I think if that's your big why, I would then wonder. Because when I think about my own why, when I am then on a Tuesday at 4 30 in the afternoon, I'm not thinking, oh, you know what? I want to connect with Nicole. Let me go look up her page. I'm not, I'm not connecting to my big why at 4 30 in the afternoon on Tuesday. Instead, my why that I don't want to admit out loud is, well, I don't know, my thumb just went over to Facebook, just out of habit. Or yeah, I'm bored and I don't know what else to do with my boredom. And I've gotten into this habit of when I'm bored, or to what you said, right? I'm like, I'm at one of my kids' games and I'm dysregulated and I'm looking for an out. And none of those things are actually in alignment with what I want to do. Again, not judgment for other folks here, but I just, it's so intriguing to me to make this connection to say, if my big why is to stay connected or to stay up to date on current events, then it would make sense in moments where I'm like, I'm feeling disconnected or I would like to know what's going on. And that I think comes back to curating your feed, what you were talking about at the beginning. We'll probably talk about that. But I just wonder if there are other options for us. And I know you just talked about one option that if my why right now, what my body is searching for, I just wonder if there's this mismatch. My body is searching for something to do because I'm bored. But social media is not gonna be my path toward the best replacement behavior or the best thing for Beth Tremell at 4:30 on a Tuesday. And there are so many other things. And I think about that as a parent, right? If I, if my teenager were like, yeah, well, I'm just bored, and so I'm gonna scroll for the next hour. Or if they said, Well, I'm just having this habit and I'm just gonna scroll for the next hour, I'd be like, bro, you got to get a better habit. You know, like I would say that as a mom. I'd be like, listen, be bored, do something else, you know. But when it's me, it's like, well, no, all right, Nicole, fix me. Tell me what's, you know.

Add Friction And Swap Habits

How Influencers Monetize Parenting Fear

SPEAKER_01 25:37

That's so funny that I look I always crack up on my clients say that to me because they know that's not actually what I'm gonna do. And that's not actually my job. But I will, but I will engage and I will, I will try to help out. You know, you're bringing up so many good points. So what part of what makes social media so attractive is just how accessible it is and just how easy it is, and how when we are in need of something, whether that something be connection, whether that something be, you know, in you know, engaging our minds because we are bored, whether that be looking for information, like sometimes we're actually looking for, I remember especially as a new parent, looking for actual parenting information on social media, right? Wanting to see what the other parents are doing, wanting to see what the parenting experts are saying. So, regardless of kind of what our why is, it is so convenient, it is so accessible, and it is so easy, and it is so frictionless. That's a word I hear coming up a lot now around social media. We have to recognize that that is part of why we are engaging with social media is because it is so convenient and accessible. And so, if we are wanting to engage less with social media, if that is the goal, we might actually want to add in some friction. And so, a coping strategy that could be really helpful there is, you know, taking the apps off your phone so that you have to be on a desktop or a laptop in order to engage, right? So you can't be in line at the grocery store and scrolling at your phone. You then have to be more aware of your environment or talking to your kid who's with you, or you know, maybe even chatting with the person who is checking you out. Like there are other ways to engage if that is your goal. If you're feeling like, again, I am not in control of my scrolling, it feels like this pull and it feels like it's out of control. The other thing we have to recognize, especially when we are thinking about influencer content. And then there's, of course, a number of different categories of influencer content, but there is influencer content that is saying I am I'm an influencer, but I'm just like you. I'm just a regular mom. So there's that type of content, right? There's like the super relatable mom influencer content. And then there is also the expert influencer content. And those are two very different categories of influencer content because they engage with us in very different ways. The point of the relatable, I'm just like you, influencer content is basically to connect with parents on this level of, I get you, my life is just like yours. And look, I had this same problem that you had. My schedule was so disorganized, and then I bought this amazing calendar, or I have this course that you can take, or I have this journal that I created, and it's only$17, right? And if you buy this journal and write in it every day, your life is gonna be so organized, and you're gonna be able to hear yourself thinking blah, blah, blah, right? Whatever it is that they are selling, right? That really, you know, engaging influencer content that's my life is just like yours. I totally get you, and I have the same problems as you. And now I'm gonna offer you this thing that's gonna solve all of your problems, that's really attractive because it's like, oh, there's this person who gets me whose life is just like mine, who I have a parasocial relationship with. And so if that solution worked for them, that solution's gonna work for me, right? That's how that content is monetized. Or it's aspirational, right? It's like, yeah, that mom is just like me, but look at all of the amazing things that she's able to do because she uses this organizational system or this cleaning product or whatever, whatever it, whatever it might be. And then the expert content comes from a different place where it's like, oh, this is my thing that I do, that I am an expert on. I am coming from like this hierarchical place where I am kind of above the regular parent. I understand this in a different, maybe academic way from an ivory tower place sort of way, right? And so I'm going to tell you what to do as a parent because I have this expert voice and there's only this one right way to do it. And if you do this parenting thing in any other way, you're doing it wrong. And so make sure that you buy my book that tells you exactly how to do this thing. And so it's coming from a very different place when you're looking at parenting expert content, right? But the result is still the same. It's still monetizing things that parents are concerned about and are looking for solutions for. And the language that's used by both types of influencers is very dramatic. Get your toddler to listen the first time, every time. And it's like, have you ever been around a toddler? What first of all, it's not, and I know that you work a lot with children, it's not developmentally appropriate for a toddler to listen the first time, every time, right? They're supposed to challenge, they're supposed to wanting to be gained independence, all of those things. And so that is not a thing that's actually achievable or even desirable. But man, if you have a toddler, that sounds really nice. Like I would love when I had toddlers, if they would listen to me the first time, every time. But then when they don't, you feel like you're the problem. And then that creates this cycle when you're then looking to the influencer content even more because it feels like, oh, what I'm doing as a parent is wrong because my toddler doesn't listen the first time, every time. So I need to engage with this content, or my kids don't eat the food that I make, so I must be doing something wrong rather than, you know, just like kids sometimes eat what you make and sometimes they don't. But if you're engaging with content that tells you, oh, you just have to cook meals for your kids this way, or this type of food, or use this type of whatever, or buy this cookbook, it feels like, oh, well, then what I'm doing is wrong, and I need to engage with this solution. So so yeah, I'd love to hear your thought, Beth, because I just went on and on about the influencer content, but oh, it gets it, it gets us. And there's a reason, the reason I point that out is there's a reason that it gets us. We are not faulty. Yes. That content is so attractive. And honestly, in some ways, it's so comforting. Like, oh, this solution to my big parenting problem that keeps me up at night is$27. I just have to take this course, like, and that'll be it. Then this will be solved. And then when it doesn't solve it, then the answer from the influencers or the experts are like, oh, well, you're not doing it right. And it's like, no, so I'm here to tell parents, you're doing the best that you can. The solutions are actually not that easy because parenting is hard and it's nuanced and it's complicated, but that doesn't sell. That doesn't sell. That's not sexy, that's not easy, that's really hard to monetize.

Modeling Healthy Use For Kids

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Yes, there's a reason they're called influencers. Like their whole goal is to influence you. And the best way to influence someone is to find the core insecurity or fear, and then offer the best solution, even if it's not even true. As a person who does talk to parents and does offer ideas, my conversation with parents is my job is not to eliminate tools in your toolbox. My job is to add additional tools. And just because one tool works today, it doesn't mean it's going to work tomorrow. And just because that tool doesn't work doesn't mean you throw it away. You know, the exact metaphor I use is, you know, if I called somebody to come and fix a room in my house and they got out one tool and it didn't work to knock down this wall, they would get another tool, but they wouldn't throw it in the dumpster, right? It's like different tools work for different moments. And so I absolutely agree. I think parents who are actively engaged in social media, it is about paying attention to what you're taking in. It's like, what content are you bringing in? And does that match your goal right now? Because I think right now, what a lot of folks do is they just scroll and they take things in and they take things in and they don't even realize, you know, we don't realize that they don't match our goals. And so, yeah, I'm guilty of doing this very thing, right? So I'm talking as a person who has gotten sucked in for the very same reasons. And, you know, one thing I was thinking about as we were talking that I'd love to hear your take on is the thing that we know about parenting that matters kind of at every developmental level, is how are we modeling the things we want to see? And so I'm curious about your ideas around this, because I think I often talk with parents about sometimes the things that we do as parents, like the decisions we make, the way we work through processes, happen internally, right? And so you might be a parent that's like, oh yeah, I've realized to your point, right? Like I can't engage in social media before bed. But you know, my kids don't see me when I get into bed. So they wouldn't know that I put my phone across the way. They wouldn't know those things unless I'm saying explicitly out loud that this is my intentional process for me as a way of modeling for our kids. And so I'm curious, what's your take around that for us as parents, as social media consumers and participants? How do we model this healthy relationship well?

Household Boundaries And Screen Rituals

Self Compassion And Recalibrating Often

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Yeah, I think you're actually bringing up two points. One is this idea of modeling healthy engagement with social media as parents. And then also you're bringing up the idea of one of the coping strategies that I frequently teach parents when they're engaging with social media is being a critical consumer. And that is absolutely something that we can teach our children and model for our children, really at any developmental stage. It just depends on making sure that they can understand what it is that we're modeling. And if we take it a step further, what it is that we're trying to teach. So, for example, my kids are a little bit older now. They're 13 and nine. So we can absolutely have conversations about what it means to be a critical consumer of content. And so I will, and my my partner and I will talk to our children about what they see online and you know, how to engage with that content and how to know that something is from a source that you can believe, or how, you know, maybe something, if that doesn't seem real, then maybe, maybe it's not. Or if something is trying to get you to buy something or trying to get you to convince your parents to buy something, let's think about that a little bit more critically and let's use that intentional pause to then think about is this something that we want? Is this something that we need? Because as therapists, you know, especially, I have plenty of books on my shelf that I have bought from experts of all kinds, right? Some have which have been great and I have incorporated into my practice, and some of which I've been like, why did I purchase? How did I get, you know, sucked into buying this thing that I didn't need, or learning about this methodology that is not aligned with who I am as a therapist. So I think it's important to recognize that even as clinicians who teach this, we absolutely, I 100% get sucked in too, right? Like I get it from that aspect both as a therapist and as a parent. And so it's important to recognize, like, yeah, we can, we can get pulled in in the same way. And so we can use those same strategies and then we can model and teach those strategies both for our children and for our clients, right? Like when I talk to clients about social media, I'm like, I get it. I'm on social media both as a parent and as a small business owner, right? As a therapist who owns their own practice. I actually use social media in these two very different ways on this personal level and this professional level. And I have to figure out a way to contend with that because honestly, in this current environment, it would be very difficult to do the work that I do and not be on social media. And there are benefits to it, right? So I want to find ways to get the most benefit out of engaging while minimizing some of these, you know, more challenging and honestly like, you know, stressful and destructive parts of social media. And being a critical consumer is a really big part of that. So I know something that we do in our household. So my oldest now has a smartwatch, and something that we do is every night when we have our, you know, have dinner together is all of the screen, my phone, my watch, his watch, my partner's at the iPad, all of the screens go in another room. Like when we are sitting down for a meal together, nobody is on a screen. That that is so we're modeling that as parents, and then that is the expectation for our children, right? Same thing at night. After dinner, all of the screens are off. That is no longer screen time. And when we go up to bed, all of the screens stay downstairs for all of us. There is no screens actually at all on the second floor of our house where the bedrooms are. There's no TV, there's no smart anything, there's nothing up there except for like an old school radio. And again, I say I want to be clear. This is without judgment, this is what works for us, right? And my kids absolutely do engage with screens. My little one has an iPad, my older one has a laptop and his smartwatch, right? We absolutely engage with screens, but we try to do it in a way that is mindful, and also we allow ourselves to re-evaluate. And so there was a point in time where, as parents, we felt like our kids were on YouTube a little bit too much, right? Like it started to feel uncomfortable. And so we started to set some more boundaries around that. But because my kids were older, we had conversations with them about it. Like, this is why we want to limit some of the things you're watching on YouTube. This is why we want to limit some of the YouTube time, right? We want you guys going outside and playing together, or we want you guys reading or doing other things. And so we didn't say it in a like a punishing way or in a judgment way, like, oh, you guys are on YouTube and it's so bad. It's just like there are some other things that we feel like are healthier, right? And so as parents, we're gonna model that. We're gonna be on our phones less, and then you guys are gonna be on your devices less and let's do things more, you know, let's bring out the board games, let's do those types of things while also recognizing there. We call them learning shows. There's some learning content, right? That my kids were engaging with. And that's fine, but you have to be a critical consumer in order to find that content. But here's the bottom line it's complicated, right? And so I know you and I have talked about self-compassion before. Like we need to put that in here big time. Parenting is hard. Parenting in the age of social media is hard. And so please, please be kind to yourself as a parent as you are navigating this time and allow yourself to reevaluate how you are engaging with social media, how your kids are engaging with social media at any time and allow yourself to make those changes and make those changes without judgment. You didn't do anything wrong. You were just doing the best that you could at the time. You know, when I think about my experience as a parent and as a new parent with social media, I, you know, got on social media. I was a late adopter. So it was like 2011 when I got on social media. And then I had my first kid in 2012. My social media usage then and what I was posting and the content that I was engaging with is very different than how I use it now. And that's a good thing because I know more. And what I know, I have different information now. I have different, I have a different data sets that I'm working with. And so I can then make different decisions about it. And I don't have to beat myself up about how I used to engage with social media. I can just say, oh, that doesn't work for me anymore. And so I want to do something different now. So, and that is, I think, really important. And that is a compassionate response because honestly, we're all, we're all just learning, we're all just figuring this out.

Awareness Over Abstinence

SPEAKER_00 43:01

I love that you're sort of like, you know, ending today with really this reminder toward allowing yourself to constantly reevaluate, right? Like, is this still working in your life? Is this a season that you're in right now that you need to recalibrate and say, you know what? I think I used to have a better handle on it and now I don't. And I think all of those things are just so good as parents to step into and then have admit to, right? I mean, I I think about admitting to, you know, my own teenagers. I have two teenagers and two um younger kids, but I I'll sometimes say, like, I feel like my brain is just like scrambled because I've just been kind of scrolling for a while and I gotta get out and move and be together and that sort of thing. So I love your connection to recalibrating. I Love your reminder of self-compassion. I love that that continues to be this stance that we want to both start and end today's session with. That it is about curiosity, kindness, and determining if does this still work? Now, here's here's the good news and the good news is I wrote down three more questions that we don't have time for today. And so I would love for you to come back and continue to unpack this stuff around social media because I do think there is so many more things. Well, I know there's so many more things that you could say about this. And there are so many things that I still, yeah, just had questions that I know for folks listening are probably coming up, you know, like, well, how do I know if my social media is impacting me negatively? What if I don't feel like I can get away from it? What if I don't think my kids can get away from it? How do I make decisions for my kids? And so would you come back and talk more about those things? Because I just hear these questions coming even after as we're sharing just this little bit, because to what you said, it's so complicated, it's so nuanced, but it's so, it's so all-encompassing, right? Like it's like this is part of the world. And so we have to figure out this big thing that's going on around us, and how do we digest it? How do we do it well instead of just I'm not doing it at all, my kids aren't doing it at all, it's just never happening in my life. Because I I think that part might be just denial or avoidance. I don't know, you're nodding. What last thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Oh, I completely agree. I think with social media and our current environment, the abstinence is not the answer, right? Like I when we started this conversation, I was saying at a minimum, as parents, and specifically for you and I, as clinicians and therapists, and as professors too, we need to be at least aware of what is going on in social media. We need to know about the trends, we need to know how this is impacting our loved ones, right? Even if we're not choosing to engage as a consumer. So there are levels of engagement. And I think being really conscious and making really conscious and aligned decisions about how you're wanting to engage. But I really do think that as parents, awareness of what is going on on social media is the bare minimum. And then kind of choosing where you want to go from there and what works for you and what works for your family from there is a really, is a feels like a really gentle way to manage this thing that can feel really overwhelming and overstimulating and exhausting at times, right? So like you want to figure out a way to engage with social media that works for you and your family and feels better, right? Like there is no, there is no perfect in parenting, and there honestly is no perfect way to engage with social media. It's just thinking about this feels like it's not working for me or my family. Yep. And so, where do I think I want to go with this? What is the goal? And then working backwards from there in a really gentle and compassionate way. I really think that that is the path. And that is what I try to keep in mind professionally and personally.

Where To Find Nicole And Closing

SPEAKER_00 47:39

I love that. And what I wrote down is that next time we're gonna talk about how we can create our own personal social media plan through this lens of kindness, compassion, and value. And I think if we can share that, what a gift. Okay, Nicole, tell people how they can find you.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

So I oh goodness, you can find me on social media. How awful does that feel after this conversation? But it see, this is why it's you're curating your content. It's nuanced, right? That's right. That's right. Um, I am I I am on Instagram. It is a it is my professional account where I post about mostly about mom rage, uh, but also about um the other educational topics I talk about, including social media, funny enough. Um, and my account on Instagram is Therapist Mom Collective. Um, and if you do not want to engage with social media, you can find more information about me and my practice and all of the work that I do on my website, which is NicoleMcNellis.com. And please feel free to reach out. Um, I enjoy having these conversations with anyone who wants to learn more. So please feel free to do that. I would love to hear from you. And thank you so much, Beth, for having me on again. We always have the best conversations.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

I know. And it's like, oh my gosh, I just have a whole hour or more of questions for you. But anyway, thank you for saying yes to being here. Listener, thank you for being here as well. You know how to reach me, bettremel.com or make wordsmatter for good.com. Thank you for saying yes. And until next time, stay safe. Stay well. Ciao.