Ep170: Sometimes the Best Conflict Skill is Shutting Up with Paula Yost

Most conflict doesn’t end a relationship. The lack of repair does. I’m joined by Paula Yost, a rare blend of attorney and licensed clinical mental health therapy supervisor, to talk about what she sees when people walk into a law office on the worst day of their lives and why legal training often misses the trauma, grief, anxiety, and mental illness sitting right in front of it.

We dig into the practical overlap between mental health and the legal system: why clients repeatedly ask the same question when they’re dysregulated, how cognitive behavioral therapy and nervous system skills can make someone a calmer, clearer client, and why attorneys should build real referral relationships with therapists. We also address a point that protects clinicians: a subpoena is not automatically a green light to hand over your entire file, and confidentiality still matters even when court pressure shows up.

From there, we move into the heart of it: relationship repair. We talk about why “let’s just not talk about it” keeps hurt alive, how scorekeeping grows when accountability never comes, and why family estrangement can be the final stage of years of unaddressed pain. Paula shares concrete repair tools that work in everyday conflict, including better timing, curiosity questions that de-escalate, and what an actual apology sounds like when it includes ownership and a plan to change. We also connect the dots to modeling healthy repair for kids, so they learn what constructive conflict looks like instead of silence or explosions.

If you want better boundaries, stronger relationships, and more peace after hard conversations, listen now. Subscribe, share this with someone who avoids the repair talk, and leave a review with the skill you’re practicing this week.

This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast

If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.

If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6

Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Paula Yost

SPEAKER_01 0:12

All right, welcome back, listener. I'm your host, Dr. Beth Tremell, and this is Thancial Learning Therapy. I am glad you're here, and I'm glad we get to have another day together. And this topic today, I think, is going to apply to a lot of people. I know already as we were kind of chatting off air, there were so many instances where this topic is going to be so great for us to have continued conversation around. And so I actually have a new guest on today. And I am so glad that our paths crossed. And um I already have found so many things that I really love and appreciate about my guest today, Paula Yost. So, Paula, thanks for saying yes to being here today, sharing your time and expertise with listeners. And can you just introduce yourself to folks? Tell us something fun that you've got going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yes. Hi, Dr. Beth. So I'm Paula Yost. I am an attorney. I'm also a licensed clinical mental health therapy supervisor in North Carolina. And I don't know, I I have a new book that just came out called Tumbleweeds. But I think, you know, probably the most fun thing about me is that I weightlift about four times a week and I listen to heavy metal music when I weightlift. Like you wouldn't look at me and think I'm a total metalhead, but I am a total metalhead. Have you been um weightlifting that much for a long time? Um, I started, I'm 46 now. I got really into it when I was about 39 after I had my third child. I'm a pre-eclampsia survivor. That's a whole other conversation, but I'm really mindful of my blood pressure. And so I really started weightlifting when I got closer to 40 um as a means of just health and blood pressure control.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Good for you. Thank you. I feel like I'm kind of on the wagon, off the wagon. I just can't ever I've realized this about myself. I think I've said this before, maybe, but I used to say I just love working out. I love going to the gym. I just like don't really love working out, but I love working out with friends. And so if I've ever made a plan to kind of be on a schedule with a friend or something like that, I can stick with it. But if I have to do it myself, Paula, it I'm just that is really hard for me.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Well, I do it with Metallica and um and and I love Metallica a lot. And um I like get a good lifter's high. And so usually when I have that going on, I feel a lot better.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Oh, I love that. I love that for you. I am not sure if Metallica would do it for me the way it's doing it for you, but I am so glad for I am so glad for you that it does.

Why A Lawyer Went To Therapy School

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Okay, so listen, so listener, um, you were not mishearing what Paula said, that she is both a lawyer and a mental health counselor. And so, you know, a lot of folks don't have both of those specialties. And I can see where they would both be very helpful, but how did you sort of come into kind of both specialties?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Well, let's start with the fact that I'm a nerd who's really good at school. That definitely helped. That definitely could start. So essentially what happened with me, um, I am a first-generation college student. My mom has a GED and ran a dental office most of her life. Um, my father worked in a cotton mill. And so I was, again, a nerd who was really good at school. And so my parents really wanted me to go to college, but they didn't really have any ability to guide me. So when I enrolled in school, you know, the stuff I thought about getting a degree in English, psychology, you know, what are you gonna do with a degree in that stuff? So, in any event, I got a degree in microbiology and English with a minor in chemistry because that seemed like what I should do. And then uh whatever. And then 9-11 happened, my senior year of college. And so the job market crashed. And I had to come up with a plan. So I willy-nilly took the LSAT one morning, and then nine months later, I was enrolled in law school. So um got to law school, realized my personality type is not like anyone else here. I'm an ENFJ. Most lawyers are ENTJs. That was not my personality type, but it was close enough. Yeah. Um, got through law school, went to work as a lawyer, realized how ill-equipped I truly was as an attorney for the things that came into the office. Um, I mean, just to give you an example of, you know, a day in the life. Last Friday I did involuntary commitment court in the county beside me. So I had one client who was a schizophrenic who was painting the walls with his feces. Um, I had another client who had pulled his own teeth out without anesthesia because he was hearing voices. Um, I finished those two court hearings, came back to my office, and then I had probate appointments for the rest of the day. Every single one of those was either a widow who was crying because her husband had just died, kids who were crying because they just liked their mom, um, had someone else crying because her brother had died. Like all day I was inundated with grief. And then I think before I went home, I had someone who wanted to just talk about what her rights would be if she left her abusive husband. And those were the legal things that I did that day. That doesn't even constitute the counseling things. In every single one of those circumstances, you need to have an understanding of trauma, you need to have an understanding of grief, and you also need to have some understanding of what schizophrenia and profound mental illness does. And you do not get that in law school. Like there are law schools now that are beginning to have dual enrollment programs where you can get a Psy D or some other form of mental health-based degree along with a law degree. But quite frankly, I think all law schools need to reevaluate their 3L year and put in things like foundations of clinical counseling and heaven only knows psychopathology. Like I think it is a disgrace that the average attorney does not know what the DSM 5 is. But also, I didn't know what it was until I went back to grad school. So I went back to grad school because I saw that I was in equipped for the things that I do. And it it honestly concerns me and even scares me a little bit that there are attorneys all across the country that are doing things exactly like what I just described, but they have absolutely no uh mental health training whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

The issues around mental illness and mental wellness are everywhere. And one of the things that you said before we started recording was nobody calls an attorney on their best day or some some version of that, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Absolutely no one who's called an attorney is having a good day. Something has gone wrong. That's why you're calling a lawyer in the first place. Something has gone horribly wrong.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah. And so inevitably, the person you're calling, right? That lawyer that you're calling is gonna be getting, uh, I don't know how to say this, other than like, if I'm calling an attorney on the worst day or one of the hardest days, they're not getting the, you know, stable version. The you know version.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

That's right. They're they're getting the the brokenhearted, the grieving, the traumatized, the scared. Yeah. That's what they're getting. And so there is a level of training for that that the average attorney does not have, which is why I've really been preaching to lawyers a lot. I teach a lot of continuing legal education for lawyers, and I've been trying to preach a lot. Make friends with your local therapists. Know who your therapists are. For God's sakes, refer these people. Because what a lot of people will do too is they'll just blow up an attorney's inbox with, you know, I have to swipe 40 times to read all this. You don't need to pay an attorney $200 to $400 an hour, in some cases $900 an hour for that. You can go see a therapist for help with that. And in many cases, your insurance will pay for it, right? And you'll get a better result.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, I know. I mean, especially those like panic, stricken, anxiety stricken, trauma responsive sort of things. Because to your point, not only is it going to be expensive and unreimbursable, but it's also going to be sent to ears that aren't. They're not trained. I guess I won't say that they're not equipped. I'm just saying, to your point, that often they don't have the lens to be able to receive and respond.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

No, and I will hear attorneys say, This person is driving me crazy. I've told them three times what the answer is, but they keep on asking me. Like, well, they're asking you because the way that you are trying to make them feel better is not working. Yeah. Have an anxiety voice and a ruminating thought that is not going away. Yeah. And so that's where you really need to have that person see a therapist who can help them deal with that. They need some cognitive behavioral therapy. And if they can get into that, so often then they are much better clients because they're much more patient. They're able to be chill, they're able to hear what you're saying to them. And that's very, very important.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Well, and I, as a therapist, have, you know, obviously had clients who have been also involved with attorneys. And there are a lot of times where I'm like, don't bother your attorney with this. Or, okay, now let's create a list of the things for your attorney, and we're going to send one message and then we're going to wait until next week. So I love your um recommendation to folks to know the therapists in your area. I often get messages from attorneys who are friends of mine that are like, hey, are you taking new clients? Do you know somebody who could take uh, you know, a couple or a six-year-old or a 12-year-old who's going through um, you know, divorce or change of placement or whatever. And so having ongoing connections to the therapist in your area, I just I cannot agree with that more.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

I also think it's important for therapists too. If you want to build a whole marketing campaign around something like that, I think attorneys would love to hear from you because they they need the resources. And often attorneys are so worn out at the end of the day because they've been in court or doing whatever, they don't always have the time to seek it. And so I think that's an excellent strategic plan for therapy offices as well, is to have relationships with your local bar and your district attorneys and your judges, like be a resource to the court system because the court system

Therapists And Attorneys As Allies

SPEAKER_00 11:20

knows they need it. It's just a question of figuring out how to do it.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

You know, it's interesting because I think I don't know what your training was like, but my training and even to some degree, like the way in which I train my current graduate students is to almost be afraid of attorneys and the court.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, that's been a conversation I've had a lot. I um so in my grad program, there was definitely some of that. And I think I turned the tide on a lot of that too. Because I also see therapists make mistakes sometimes, like, okay, I got served a subpoena, so here's every single thing I have. And I'm like, no, ma'am, we're not gonna do that. That's a piece of paper. You're violating all kinds of confidentiality laws that can get you in huge trouble. You're gonna call your insurance company and ask your insurance company to get a provider because you're gonna file a motion to quash. And if a judge tells you to produce that stuff, then that's fine. But you don't have to do that just because a lawyer told you you to. So I try to make people view lawyers like we put our pants on the same way you do. You know, we're not some sort of super villain because we went to law school, you know. So I do think a lot of um students are scared of lawyers. I don't we're not as scary as as you as you think.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

I don't have a ton of experience going um to court or working with attorneys, but when I have, it hasn't been the picture that is often portrayed, right? I remember the one there was one instance where I um was showing up to court and I was in a bit of a pickle because I really was just I was doing the work with this nine-year-old and they were calling me in about custody arrangement, you know? And I was like, I I can't really speak to custody arrangements because I didn't, I didn't do the work of like a true custody evaluator. Right. But this judge, I mean, I remember this judge turning to look at me because both attorneys had already like argued their point and they were trying to ask me these questions that I was like, I can't say that because I haven't spent enough time. And this judge just straight looked at me and said, Dr. Fromell, can you please just be frank? What do you think I should do in this situation? Yeah. Like I I just felt so horrible for in some ways for everyone involved because I think at the end of the day, to what you're saying, we're just they're just trying to help these families, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

That's right. That's right. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to help these families. And you also, I have a lot of compassion for people in that scenario as well, because so often they don't know about personality disorders. Right, right. They they are not trained to recognize how to deal with borderlines, you know, they don't know what to do. They don't want to take children away from a well-meaning, loving parent, but they also haven't seen that parent intoxicated.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Right. I mean, this may loop into kind

When Families Never Repair The Damage

SPEAKER_01 14:15

of the main thing, although we've been talking for a minute because I'm just like so fascinated by this, but I think this ties directly into, I'm sure, situations that you have seen so many times, and definitely situations that I have seen over and over where I have thought if these two folks could just learn, just learn how to repair the conflict that they're and sometimes it's bigger than that, right? I'm not trying to simplify the situation into like, oh, just say you're sorry and say you forgive them and we move on. But this issue of relationship repair, I am certain you see overlap in both your legal and your counseling practice. And so we just have to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Yeah, we do. So relationship repair is for me much deeper than um either of my professions. So, in full candor, my mother, um, I believe has borderline personality disorder. Um, she grew up in a pretty violent environment. And she's, I think, does the best she can. But when she's triggered and the abandonment is high, it's pretty rough. Yeah for everybody around. Yeah. And one of the things that that has led to is the traditional borderline with all compassion to them, for those that are aware and seeking help. So often what I see with them is they can't say they're sorry. They can't just say, you know what, I'm sorry for what I said to you when I was full of rage. I'm sorry for what I did to you when I was at level 10. I think part of that is um the Cartman drama triangle. They're just not able to be anything other than a victim, a rescuer, a persecutor. I think some of the time it is a lack of awareness. Sure. But I also think that for most of the time, it's just easier to act like nothing happened. Yeah. And acting like nothing happened, you don't have to have a personality disorder to have that be the thing. I see so often where people are like, well, we're just not gonna talk about it anymore. Yep, that's right. We're just gonna go on like nothing happened. Well, the there's a huge problem with that.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

And the huge problem with that is that there's someone who's still feeling hurt. And maybe both people are feeling hurt, but there's definitely somebody who's feeling hurt. And what happens when you have somebody feeling hurt is they just carry that. Yeah. They carry that hurt, they carry that guilt, they carry that pain until the next time something happens. And then we go through this again, but then we're gonna do the same thing. We're just gonna act like nothing happened. Well, eventually, what I think is happening in the United States at least is you know, Oprah's been talking a lot about parental estrangement. I think you're seeing parental estrangement, not because therapists are telling people to walk away from your parents, don't speak to them again. It no one ever walks away from a loving, healthy environment.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Yeah. People are walking away because they're having incident upon incident and year after year of no relationship repair. And they get to the point where they're just done. And they're like, I'm never ever going to get an apology. I'm never going to get a commitment to improvement or making this better. And I'm just going to go through this the next time again. And then we're going to act like nothing happened again. And adult children get tired of that. And they just don't want to participate with it anymore. I mean, that's why so often I think we we have hospice nurses that will say, I called my patient's adult child and said, Hi, your mom's probably got, you know, maybe two or three days left. She really wants to see you. And the kid says, Thank you for calling me and hangs up the phone and never shows up because there was no relationship repair. And the kid doesn't want to do it then. They're over it by that point.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

You know, it's interesting as we're as we're talking about this. I think, and again, this is just the Beth Tremell interpretation, not that I have studied this or researched it, but I think there's a generational thing, right? We're like generations before us, right? And I'm 45, so you and I are um right there in the same generation. And so I think generations before us were like, you always respect your mother and your father, and you the you know, family blood is thicker than water.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Like there's been these narratives around and there was a huge religious undercurrent to that too.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yes, yes, right. And so we have this, I think we have this generation of folks who have kind of lived and breathed under that. But I actually think that the rise in the destigmatization of mental health and quote self-care. I barf about this term self-care, but I I mean. I mean, it just this isn't about Oreos and Netflix. But anyway, so I think the rise in that and the rise in boundaries and um, you know, all these kind of clickbaity things has now started to shift that to be like, what do you mean I can say no? What do you mean I can have expectations of my aging parent or my grown parent? You know, I I just think now it has shifted and I agree. I think it's now we're having to really take a hard look at even to what you're describing, right? Like relationship repair after 10 or 20 or 30 years of not relationship repair.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

No, that comes at a cost.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

You know, when you're when you're the person who doesn't want to engage in an apology and you don't want to engage in relationship repair, you're gonna pay for that eventually. Yeah. You will. It it and it might not be as extreme as your adult child cutting you off and you know, not showing up on when you're on your deathbed, but you will pay for that eventually. There is a price that you're paying for that failed relationship repair.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah. So, you know, we're talking about this sort of like grown parent, grown child sort of parental estrangement discussion. Probably you also see this in other kind of small, I don't want to say smaller. That's not exactly what I mean, but like in other kind of everyday ways too, right? Where we just this idea of repairing relationship, uh it's just so foreign.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I it is. It's it's really foreign. Um, I want to say too, I think it's important to be able to have the emotional maturity to be able to look at what I am actually looking at. And so by that, I mean, surprisingly enough, in um the probate arena, I see a lot of adult victims of incest. Because I know it's so no one wants to think about that because it's so gross. But what will happen is I'll have brother and sister who this estate should be easy. This should be a no-brainer. We should be done with this. Why are y'all fighting? Why are you not getting along? Why is everything an argument? And then what I come to discover is brother raped sister at some point when they were children. Sister's been scarred by it all this time. Mom and dad knew about it all this time. Nobody ever did anything about it. Nobody protected anyone. It was a complete disaster and a huge family shame conversation. And then now that mom and dad are dead, now I'm dealing with it as your attorney. You know, I am not ever going to tell a female who was raped by her brother that she has to forgive him. I don't know that I could do that. That's not what you and I are covering right now.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

We're not covering like someone committed a crime against you. Um, I've also had this conversation recently with a friend of mine who was talking about the rape to religion pathway, which is, you know, somebody was a complete rapist in college, but now they found Jesus and they're trying to shift. That's not what we're talking about. No. We're talking about like ordinary, everyday, like everybody has conflict. Even the best of friends are going to have a conflict. So you can't, you you do not have the ability to live in some bubble where you're never free of not getting along with someone or having someone who disagrees with you on something.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah, I love that you um that we're like clarifying that what we're talking about here are not these egregious violations um of you know either to your personal autonomy. You know, when I do conflict resolution workshops, I talk about the definition of conflict um being the real or perceived, um, real or perceived differences in opinions, views, or goals, right? So, like if my goal is to not have to cook tonight for dinner, and my partner's goal is to have a home-cooked meal, that's conflict. He and I have a different idea, and it could lead to an argument, could lead to a fight, could lead to you know what we kind of traditionally see as conflict. But at the core, like conflict happens everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

It sure does. Everywhere. Every relationship that we have, there's conflict. And I think that's honestly too at the root of a lot of what we're seeing politically

Everyday Conflict And Chronic Anger

SPEAKER_00 23:55

in the United States right now, too. Like, I don't have to agree with you on every single thing to not think you're, you know, you're unworthy of my friendship or to think that you're trash or to treat you like trash. We don't have to get along on every topic. And quite frankly, I also don't think it's healthy to be angry all the time. Like, you can't just be furious for however many years because you don't like something that's going on in the culture. Like at some point, you've got to be responsible for finding your own happiness and your own joy. And you can't just sit there and be furious about things all the time.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Uh yeah, I mean, I think it again, not we're putting, you know, those major situations over here. And then we're talking about like kind of everyday, just constantly angry or negative about things. And one of the things that I talk with clients about is you know, what are you consuming? Like, whether that's you know, physically consuming, but also what are you emotionally consuming? Whether what's that algorithm? Oh, I mean, it it it can be really nasty. It could be really nasty. And it, you know, when you are consuming nasty, not pretty things happen. I don't know how else to say especially not if it's been all day every day. Yeah. Okay,

The Nervous System Side Of Repair

SPEAKER_01 25:25

so when you talk about relationship repair, either from a legal standpoint or from a clinical standpoint, how do you help people see the importance of clinical of relationship repair?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

That is a really great question. So I think because some people are so resistant to it, which is why I'm like, ugh. I know. I think it's really important to understand the whole concept of our central nervous system, right? Like our vagus nerve is the biggest nerve in our body, and it really does send messages back and forth all day, every day between our heart, our brain, and our stomachs, right? That's what it does. It sits through through there. So when you've really hurt somebody in whatever way, you know, that vagus nerve for them is lit up. And so what I think happens with a lot of people is okay, somebody hurt me somehow. There's not been relationship repair. We're just acting like nothing happened. But now when I see that person, I'm not having an authentic relationship with that person. I have the guard up, right? This is what we see a lot with patients or with clients who use the gray rock method with their family members. You know, there's not a real relationship here. All that's happening then is the other person is just managing their relationship with you because they don't register you as a safe person because their vagus nerve doesn't let them feel that way. These are the same people who we have that dread holidays, that, you know, are not looking forward to having to do something with their family out of obligation. And ask to the offending person in that is is that how you want people to feel about you? Do you want your children, your adult children, or whoever it is in your life, do you want them to come to your house out of obligation? Or do you want them to come to your house because they want to be there? Do you want them to be counting down the hours until they can leave? Or do you want them to genuinely want to be in your home? Do you want them to filter your relationship or do you want to have an authentic conversation with your children so that they want to speak to you and tell you what's going on? If you want someone to have an authentic relationship with you, which quite frankly is what I want in my relationships. I don't want people to be fake around me. I don't want my kids to be like, God, we've got to go to her house. Please anything but that, not that. I hate Christmas because I hate going over there. You know, I don't want my loved ones to feel that way about me. I want them to be like, I can't wait to go to my mama's house because we're going to do A, B, and C and it's going to be awesome. Like, I want them to want me, to want to be with me. So I have to foster an environment where they're going to want to do that. And part of that is having good emotional maturity, conflict resolution, um, not being in their business when I shouldn't be in their business, having some boundaries. But also if I have hurt them, going out of my way to say, you know what, I'm sorry if the way that came out of my mouth hurt you. That was not my intention. I love you very much. I would never hurt you on purpose. Those relationship repairs are really important because when you don't do them, that's when you've got a cow, a child that dreads being around you.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

I love that. It reminds me of years ago, Brene Brown on her podcast had um Harriet Lerner come on and talk about um essential elements of a true apology. And, you know, you've brought up this issue of saying I'm sorry and apologizing. And anytime I'm talking about conflict and I'm talking about and forgiveness is its own podcast episode. I mean, it is an entire forgiveness is its own thing that we all think we know. And apologies are I I mean, I really think apologies are a skill to be learned. Yes. It's not just I'm sorry, and that's right.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yes. You have to be able to authentically recognize what you've done, admit to what you've done, yeah, apologize for what you've done. Yeah. That's called being accountable. Just showing some accountability. Yeah. But then also try to say something like, either I'm never going to do that again. Yeah. Or if it's not that simple for you, say something like, I'm going to try really hard to not ever do that again. Yeah. Um, and I'm I'm really gonna try to be mature and responsible for my own stuff. But if you see me going there, please tell me because I don't ever want to make you feel hurt. Yeah. You know, I think most people, as a general rule, don't want their loved ones to feel hurt. I agree. I mean, I don't know anyone who's ever said, I'm gonna go out today and hurt my adult child. Yeah. That's usually not how someone wakes up. Yeah. But being aware when you are in fact hurting someone, even if it was not your intention, is it's important to fix that.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Okay, so I'm also thinking about, and again, this is a just like a sliver of what we're sort of talking about here. I sometimes also add, oh, I'm not gonna be popular for saying this, but sometimes sometimes not everything has to matter. You know what I mean? That's true.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

You just need to pick your battles.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Yes. I mean, I think sometimes the age that we're in of like my voice matters, and I'm, you know, I am entitled to my own feelings and I'm entitled to my opinion and all these things. And it's like, yeah, and then in some sometimes in relationships, and again, I'm not talking about like major egregious violations, right? But I'm talking about like everyday occurrences. I talk about books, not because I love the whole book, but because there are certain parts. And there's a this book called Radical Candor. And one part of this book that has stayed with me forever is leave three unimportant things left unsaid every day. Every day. Leave three unimportant things left unsaid every day. And I come back to that so often in my everyday life as a mom, as a friend, as a partner, as a psychologist, you know, it's like I could find something wrong with everyone in my life all day long. And sometimes it just it just can't turn into it just can't turn into that, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:56

No, sometimes just shut up. Shut up. Like some of the time, just shut up. And when you can't just shut up, you know, at least be able to say, I am sorry that took it too far. I shouldn't have said that.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think the other thing that you were you were talking earlier about how when we just pretend like it didn't happen, one or both of us still is hurt by it, right? And the way I often talk about this, and I think that you probably see this too, is that then we start keeping score.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Where it's like, well, every day this week, or you know, you for the last month, every Saturday, you have needed to go out with your friends or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

And it's like then there's unresolved because there's an unresolved conflict. Yeah. Someone is holding, then that adds up so that then it's harder and harder because again, it damages your relationship.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Yeah. Okay. What is one thing, like one like practical way that you help people understand how to do repair, like in the moment? So you've given a couple of examples of saying, like, hey, if you can't stop talking, if you can't shut up, then just say, you know what, I'm sorry, I took that too far. What's another way that you kind of like encourage people in the moment to work on relationship repair?

SPEAKER_00 33:21

I think another thing is to just be able to say, you know what, um, how how do you feel about this? Like just ask. Like, is this conversation, are you okay? Is this hurtful to you? Yeah. You just show that you have some pulse on the fact that the topic is sensitive and maybe it's hard for someone else.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

I love that take on things where you're like approaching it from this place of curiosity of like, hey, so how is this going?

unknown 33:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

One

Timing, Pursuers, Withdrawers, And Kids

SPEAKER_01 33:50

of the other things I talk about when we talk about relationship repair or conflict is timing. Yes. And so emotional timing and situational timing, making sure that the end of the day, uh, your most stressful day is probably not the time to address this issue or try to repair this issue. Or if your partner is just walking in the door, your child is just coming in from, you know, the hardest day they've ever had. Right. That's not the time for repair. It's not going to go well.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

No. Some of the time these things need to have a, hey, can we have a sit-down conversation on Saturday?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Mm-hmm. Okay, something else. I'm just thinking about all the rapid fire questions I have around this idea of repair. So you have folks that are what is what is the terminology? I'm forgetting it now, but it's like you have retreaters and then you have, oh, pursuers. I was gonna say attackers, but that I knew that was no psychologist names their theory attacker and retreater. But anyway, so the pursuers and the retreater or whatever, withdraw or whatever that goes. I see this come up too, where it's like it's not even just the content of our our issue that's a problem, but that it's the way in which we want to repair that's also a problem, right? Where they're like, I need a break, and they're like, I don't need a break, I need to talk about it, right? So when you have situations like that, what are what are some things that you kind of share with people when those things come up?

SPEAKER_00 35:22

So, first of all, I think it's really important for pursuers to understand that they're gonna have to calm down a little bit. Yeah. Because you've got to give somebody else's nervous system a chance to process and think and get on the same page as you. Yeah. Or at least be open to the conversation. Some people, if someone's telling you I cannot handle this right now, they probably genuinely cannot. Because if they could, they would be having the conversation with you. Yeah, that's right. Um, the other thing that I think is also important is that for those people who shrink, you've also got to recognize that you can't do that either. Yeah. You're going to have to have the conversation eventually. A little bit of a, I'm not able to have this conversation right now, but could we do this at this date and this time? Can I can we do this tomorrow at 10? Can we do this tomorrow afternoon? We'll have this little window. Can we do that then? Some of the time that's a big deal. Um, I also want to add, if that's what you're gonna do, you're gonna have to let your pursuer know that that's the plan and you're gonna have to, in fact, do it.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Yeah. And again, we are talking about normal relationships. I'm not talking about your narcissistic, abusive husband who is gonna nip at you no matter what you do, and no matter what you say or do, it's gonna be wrong. That's a different situation and one that absolutely needs to be recognized. But yeah, in normal, ordinary conflict, you you just have to recognize you're gonna have to do it at some point. That's part of being an adult.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

It's part of being an adult, unfortunately. And I think, you know, as someone who um often preaches around modeling this for our kids, our teenagers in particular, you know, a couple of cases that I had high conflict divorce cases where, you know, they were like, we never argue in front of the kids, we never fight in front of the kids. And I say, that's actually not better. No, I mean, I don't want parents screaming and yelling at around their kids. I never want parents to be demeaning, uh but they have to be able to see what this relationship repair looks like. Yes. Constructive conversation is important. Yeah. Ugh.

Tumbleweeds Book And Where To Find Paula

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Okay, so you've got this book out, huh? Okay, so tell us the 60 to 90 second pitch for this book.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Yes, my book is called Tumbleweeds, and it is about my four children and everything that I went through to bring them into the world and all kinds of other stuff. It talks about adoption, it talks about trauma, it talks about preeclampsia, talks about cleft palate repair, it talks about suing a public school system. It's just kind of a memoir about my life. And I really, really hope that it's helpful for people who read it.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

I love that you put your story out there. Um, I can imagine it was a vulnerable and cathartic and probably a lot of things in writing it. And so thank you for putting it into the world.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Thank you. I'm glad it's out of my body.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

I love that. Okay, so you have a couple of websites. Just uh where can people find you and um maybe want to purchase the book?

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yep, PaulaYoast.com. And you can also find me on Facebook or um Instagram at Paula J Yoast-Author.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Author. Okay, great. Well, I'll link those in the show notes. And thank you for coming to be such a great guest today. Um, I just love the uniqueness of your of your background, but also the kind of realness of how you're approaching these things. And so I'm sure it's valuable to the people that you encounter. And I'm glad that you got to encounter listeners today.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Thank you, Dr. Trammel. It's been wonderful to meet you. I've been happy. I know.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I love it. Okay, listener, thank you for being here also. And I appreciate your time today. And until next time, stay safe and stay well. Ciao