Things You Learn in Therapy
Things You Learn in Therapy
Ep 172: What If Your Body Remembers More Than You Do with Scott Stolarick
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Trauma doesn’t have to be catastrophic to be real and “it wasn’t bad enough” might be the most common thought that keeps people from getting help. We sit down with Scott E. Stolarick, LCPC, CCTP, a trauma-informed therapist and the owner of Mosaic Pathway Counseling, to unpack why trauma isn’t a competition and why two people can live through the same moment and walk away with completely different nervous system responses. If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re overreacting, whether you should just get over it, or whether therapy is “for people with bigger problems,” this conversation is for you.
We talk about how validation works in trauma therapy and why so many clients come in hoping a professional will “rate” their experience. Scott offers a grounded reframe: you’re the author of your story, and your internal reaction deserves attention even when outsiders don’t understand it. We also explore how disclosure is shaped by the responses people get from family, partners, and communities, especially when the trauma is sexual abuse or another topic that gets minimized, doubted, or brushed aside.
Then we get practical about EMDR therapy, a trauma treatment modality that can feel more structured than traditional talk therapy. We cover informed consent, readiness, why EMDR can move quickly, and why the therapist’s role is often to create safety and then get out of the way so your mind and body can process. We close with one of the most underrated tools in healing: repair, accountability, and honest feedback inside the therapy relationship.
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This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast
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www.bethtrammell.com
Welcome And Meet Scott
SPEAKER_00All right, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, Dr. Besterman. I'm glad you are here today. This is Things You Learn in Therapy, and we are going to talk about another topic related to mental health, mental wellness, and you know, as the title says, things we learn in therapy in today's episode will be um hopefully very I always try to have these be encouraging, informative, build awareness. Um, because I think we just can't talk about um mental health in a really highly educated way enough. Um, I think there's lots of mental health information out there. I'm not sure all of it's great. And so I am glad you're here today. And I have a new guest on uh today uh with me, and I am excited to learn more about his approach to mental health and things that he's learning in therapy as well. And so Scott Stoleric is here to talk a little bit about trauma, but also um, you know, whatever else comes up, right, Scott? That's what just what we're gonna do today. You know, I'm excited for it. So, Scott, can you introduce yourself to folks and then tell us something fun about you or that you have going on?
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you, Dr. Beth. I appreciate that. Um, as you noted, my name is Scott Stoleric. I'm a master's level licensed and uh trauma-informed therapist. Uh, I practice in northern Illinois, right near the Wisconsin border in a town called Gurney. Uh we're known for six flags and that's right, six flags. Gurney Mills Mall, you know, you got a great mall there. Yeah. So there's all all kinds of stuff here to put us on the map. Yeah. Um, I've been uh running my own practice now for about two and a half years called Mosaic Pathway Counseling. And um I've uh you know kind of had a rebirth in my work being on my own and and doing my own thing and making my own decisions. And it's uh it's felt good, you know, doing this after years of being an administrator, a clinician, a supervisor, um, you know, you name it. So I I like to be in charge of me and uh and and guide my own path. Um and you know, I like to have fun when I'm not working too with my family. Um, I have uh my wife and two adult daughters and two miniature dachshunds at home that keep me busy and um and I'm a comic book nerd and I love uh love everything superheroes and I collect sports memorabilia, so I try to try to keep myself
Hobbies As Real Mental Health
SPEAKER_02uh busy and out of trouble by doing those things.
SPEAKER_00I love those hobbies. I um I think I think we don't teach hobbies as much as we used to.
SPEAKER_02We don't. You're right, you're right. Yeah, I think um, you know, with electronics, a lot of our younger folks are just kind of on their phones or their tablets, and and that's fine, but you know, I I don't think it's as diversified as it was years ago, and where people did have hobbies and you know, uh listen to music on a turntable or you know, or or went outside and threw a ball around or you know, stuff like that. So try to keep that alive in my own life, you know, celebrate that.
SPEAKER_00I was thinking about what when I was a kid, hobbies that I liked were you know, coin collecting was like a thing, you know, when we were when I was younger, when we were younger, it's like I used to look at the dates on quarters and I used to and I used to love rocks. I used to want to collect rocks. I mean, if I proposed to my children currently that they should pick up coin collecting or rock collecting as a hobby, I don't even want to think about what they might look at me in return with.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's funny you mentioned that. I, you know, I do have a ton of coin cases around my house that I that I've picked up over the years. And my office here has a variety of different rocks and gemstones on display. So I'm all with you there. And um, you know, I very much promote that in in clients. If they ask about something in my office and I'll tell them a little side story, and maybe they pick up an interest in it and just kind of, you know, get away from a lot of the mainstream flooding that's going on out there.
SPEAKER_00We could probably keep talking about hobbies, but let's um I
Trauma Is Not Bad Enough Myth
SPEAKER_00love um this topic of trauma. And I think we can talk kind of broadly about trauma. I think there's a lot of great info that's coming out about people really understanding trauma, what it is, what we kind of think it is, and how what we think it is may not always match with what it is and how it impacts us. But I think one thing that I'm not sure we talk enough about is for a lot of folks that I encounter, men, women, people, is this sort of comparison around, well, it's I've experienced this thing, but it's not bad enough, let's say that I need to see a therapist, or it's not bad enough. And whatever bad enough is, like, I don't know, do you encounter folks with this like it's not bad enough scenario? And how do you kind of help folks realize that's not necessarily a helpful categorization to understanding this?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I I think you know, in our in our field and a lot of the literature and reading you'll do about trauma, you hear uh terms like little T or T trauma. And that's I think an okay thing for for giving people a frame of reference, but I I discourage individuals uh from you know minimizing something that they've been through that didn't feel right to them because their experience is what is most valuable and their uniqueness and um uh ability to reconcile something in their own life. I mean, two people can be part of the same experience, and one could feel it was traumatic and the other could feel it was fun, you know. So, so it's uh it very much uh depends person to person. You know, first responders, military, people who have been sexually abused or domestic violence uh victims is not the only form of trauma that is out there, although that's mostly what we tend to hear about. Trauma sort of, you know, as I put it, you know, exists, you know, everywhere in various shapes and sizes and often goes unacknowledged by the person who carries the trauma, as well as maybe by those who support that person who carries it.
SPEAKER_00Do you think that that is perhaps a place that you often start with folks is recognizing that it is a thing? Because I agree. I mean, I think those messages, either internally or even people around us who are not aware of it wasn't that big a deal for you. So I don't know why you're still struggling with it, you know. So I think these messages come. And so is that a place that you often start where it's like, okay, so let me just let me give this a different perspective for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is. Uh, you know, if if someone comes in and and knows that I work with trauma, they're almost looking at times for me to either categorize it as eligible for trauma or does it qualify? And, you know, to to me, uh I I say to them that, you know, this is unique. This is this is you and and how you experienced this and how you rate it. It's very interesting. I side note uh years ago watched uh um a Netflix special called Som about Somaliers, and it was very interesting. And there was one guy who was considered like the GOAT Somalier, the one who everybody loves. And he was kind of this, you know, like trout fisherman looking guy, you know, just your outdoorsy dude. And certainly you wouldn't look at him and say, no, that's a sophisticated Somalier. But somebody asked him, you know, hey, what makes a good wine? And this is a guy who knows everything you could possibly know about wine, and he just simply looked at the camera and says, you know, if you like it, it's a good wine. And and I loved it. I absolutely loved that because it's up to you. It's your discretion. It's you, you're the person categorizing. And so if someone comes in asking me to um rate or categorize their trauma, I I say to them that you know, uh, it's it's not my place to do that. If it's something that you feel was bothersome, let's talk about to what degree you feel that, and and we'll we'll try to break it down and rebuild it for you. Um, so it's it's it's more empowerment to be um sort of a judge in your own experience versus turning to someone else and saying, gosh, did I overreact? Or was that not really that bad? Or, you know, because too many times we turn to others for that. And um, I think when we start to rely more on ourselves to categorize things and to make decisions about what is or isn't in our lives, we we cultivate the path toward empowerment.
SPEAKER_00It's sort of a I don't know whether it's
Validation And Owning Your Story
SPEAKER_00an insecurity or it's an uncertainty that folks might come in with that, you know, it's like, does this count? You know? And I'm curious how you interpret why folks might need that question answered. Like, what is it that underlies that from your perspective?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, I I think that in many cases it's it's something that is often kept to oneself, but is internally very uh troublesome, you know, very uh very conflicted, very not okay in their mind, but uh there isn't necessarily the level of confidence to ask someone in their day-to-day life out of fear that they might be dismissed or laughed at. Or so I I think um coming in and maybe seeking the the validation of hey, uh, I'm not crazy, am I? Is basically what people say. And and the validation of, you know, no, you know, you you are the author of your story, you know you better than I ever could, or anyone else ever could. So let's talk about how this feels for you. And I think once that validation is provided, there really is a permission then to start to speak freely about the extent to which this exists for that person. And it could be something like, you know, somebody having a close call while driving and now being very traumatized when they're in the car, or uh somebody turns on the shower when they get in and the water's very hot unexpectedly, and they get burned a little bit, and you know, now I'm hesitant to get in the shower, and I really have this reaction. So it spans all types of experiences. And so I think the the the initial part is just saying, hey, it's okay. It's it's not weird, it's not, it doesn't mean something's wrong with you or that you're crazy. It's it's something that you know we have that you feel is bothering you, that it did bother you, and we are gonna do our best to try to help you land in a better place with that.
SPEAKER_00It is to what you're saying, just really empowering and really steadying, I think, for a lot of folks to just have the permission to feel or be or have experienced in some sort of way. And once we can have that permission to be like, okay, well, it was okay that I responded this way. Perhaps it was okay. I mean, maybe there are things we need to adjust, but but then we can start working toward healing and growing and learning once we have that first permission.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's you know, an a situation that could be common is someone coming in uh who perhaps has a history of sexual abuse that isn't disclosed or hasn't been talked about, and they start to have problems in dating, um, or when relationships start to move to more of an intimate place, and the response to them by others, by the person that they're with, is one of you know, judgment. Uh, what's wrong? I don't understand this. Uh, I didn't do anything to you, did I? What why are you this way? And, you know, and so I I I think the the outside world, if uninformed and choosing to go from face value judgment, can easily look at a person like that and say, oh my gosh, they're dramatic or they're hyperbolic or they're, you know, um, and that's eventually the message the person starts to get about themselves. So so coming in to do trauma work is is really foundationally built on acceptance, um, empowerment, validation, and healing, hopefully after that.
SPEAKER_00So
Men Trauma And Therapy Barriers
SPEAKER_00in your work, um, you work a lot with adults, some adolescents, but mostly adults, and um kind of a mix of men and women. And so I'm just curious, in your kind of clinical practice, have you noticed differences in how the trauma treatment kind of process work is between um or within genders really?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's different, certainly. I think um, you know, I find that generally speaking, I think women tend to be more open to therapy. Um when it comes to talking about depth and interpersonal experience, I think uh, you know, men mostly tend to struggle with that due to um being socialized to not have that response. It's not strong, it's not manly, it's not masculine, these again are all the stereotypes. Um, so to come in and essentially say that this makes me feel weak, this makes me feel scared, this makes me feel like I'm not a man. Um, those are all sort of myths that if um a male survivor is is strong enough to make their way into therapy that we want to work to kind of debunk at the beginning and really say that, hey, you know, this has nothing to do with your manhood. This has nothing to do with what you define as masculine, or this is, you know, this is a human thing. It's uh, you know, and and that's what that's what we're gonna focus on. And and it's particularly evident in cases of sexual abuse, uh childhood sexual abuse, male to male, um, that's really a um a complex one. Yeah, because I think um, you know, if if a man feels that, you know, his his sexual orientation is in question, uh, then if uh a heterosexual male, let's say, uh feels that that's in question, that's a that's a huge threat. And when in fact, you know, it was probably never in question to begin with. And if it is in question, it's okay. It that you know, that's not a that's not a thing we're going to pass any type of judgment upon, but these are conversations that are not had in gatherings of men typically.
SPEAKER_00In my own life, I have seen too that, you know, I think we're always going to, well, I don't want to say it that way. I mean, what we know um is that we tend to see more women in therapy just kind of in general. Um, you know, they're more likely to seek. And I think some of that is because we're socialized to kind of operate similarly and kind of personal lives as women. Um, again, stereotypical, again, not not always true for everyone. But I think in general, um, to what you're saying, men just aren't necessarily socialized to talk it out if you're having an issue. And in particular, not trauma, and in particular to what you're saying, um, sexual trauma.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely not not socialized to deal with that. And and not, you know, that's a you know uh uh sexual abuse um doesn't have necessarily a user's manual for someone when that happens to them. It's you know, you don't know what to do, or the people around you may not know what to do. So, and and that is you know problematic in a way that that I think more of us need to know how to help respond when we're um faced with that, if we're ever faced with that with a loved one or a friend, that uh how you respond, how one is responded to, I should say, when they're brave enough to come forward really sets forth how this will take place moving forward. You know, if if if there's a positive nurturing response when someone discloses, then the stage is really set for healing. Um, when someone is disregarded or minimized or not believed, that really sort of crystallizes their resistance towards discussing this or thinking that anybody will ever be helpful, you know.
SPEAKER_00And it perpetuates that, like, why talk about it? Because it's only painful or shameful or embarrassing to talk about. And why would I want to do talk therapy?
SPEAKER_02Right, right, exactly, exactly. You know, when older people in your life, assuming you're a child and it happens to you, uh, say that um, you know, no, no, that didn't, you know, that's that's just, you know, that's just your uncle being playful. That's just, you know, whatever they may say to to to downplay it and really uh blame shift when the intention may not be there to do that, but it definitely creates that. It's uh it it's destabilizing very much.
EMDR Expectations And Readiness
SPEAKER_00So you have training in EMDR, and I actually don't know the research, and you may not either, but um, if you do, I'm just curious. My hunch is that um and I don't know if this would be true for gender. I'm just thinking about this idea of EMDR is uh a different modality from talk kind of traditional talk therapy.
SPEAKER_02Very much, yes.
SPEAKER_00And I have had just anecdotally, I feel like I've had more success for talk therapy resistant referrals to EMDR, right? Where people are like, well, talking about it isn't gonna help. And then I can share with them this modality of EMDR that it, you know, you're still talking. Like, let's be clear. EMDR does not mean you get away from talking at all in therapy. But I'm curious if you've had a similar uh experience, right? Where you can kind of get folks bought into this idea of EMDR. And I'm curious about whether it's true also for um males in particular to be like, okay. That's more like a it's like a special procedural kind of I don't know. I just wonder how they think about it.
SPEAKER_02One of the one of the things I do when I start EMDR is I spend a lot of time on informed consent for the for the reason you mentioned that it's not your traditional psychotherapy paradigm. It's very different. And one of the differences is it it gets to things really quickly. It tends to access the target, if you will, very quickly. Um, and some individuals are like, you know what, let's get into it, let's get it moving, let's get it. This is good. Others may say when they hear that that, you know, I I would prefer a slow burn. I don't think I can just jump into the pool like that. Um so after the informed consent and the reading of the literature I require them to go through and some of the videos I ask them to watch, I tend to get kind of a mixed, you know, response that that that some folks would prefer to go more slowly, and others are ready to just jump in the pool. And um gender-wise, I don't know that I felt it that it's been heavily weighed towards one side or the other. Um, I just think it depends on kind of the readiness of that person, um, the ingrained nature of the trauma, the extent to which they've addressed it previously. Um, there's there's a lot of factors that that come in there. And, you know, I make sure we get into that. You know, just sitting down and saying, okay, watch this light bar and move your eyes back and forth. People are gonna be like, okay, what what's going on here? You know, so so understanding it is important. Uh, I'll have people come to me because they know I do EMDR and they think it's this, hey, that sounds cool. That sounds, let's do it. And I'm grateful that they're interested, but I also want them to sort of move forward uh and be an educated consumer because they may not always be in favor of it and may want to do a little more talk therapy before they feel primed for EMDR.
SPEAKER_00My experience with EMDR was I'm a terrible client, to be fair. I um I don't know whether that's true of a lot of therapists, but when you're a therapist yourself, it's just for me, it was it's just hard to like turn off like why would they ask that question and not this question? And I mean, what a terrible way to approach therapy. Anyway, it's what I would not recommend. But EMDR for me was like when the therapist was like walking through the protocol, I I was like pausing when my brain was actually saying things that I was like, I cannot believe my brain is saying this. It for me really it took away my own resistance to the process because it really felt like my brain was leading rather than like my resistant thoughts. And so it was a really unique experience for me um to experience personally. Yes, and to your point, I I mean I felt um pretty immediate relief for like specific areas of my own life that I was like, this is wild.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, certainly tends to be, yeah, it it is, and and I think our bodies, our minds uh intuitively want to move toward healing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and you know, if if we put our bodies and our minds in situations that are conducive to that, they'll take the baton and and run with it a bit. And I've always said the therapist's main job in EMDR is to stay the heck out of the way. Um, you know, the the person's going to be working, their mind is gonna go to work on this, and it's either gonna be quick or they're gonna be a little bit resistant with it, but you let them do their thing and stay out of their way. And so that's I think the biggest thing for a therapist to do is to let the client's mind and body kind of show you where this work should go. And for therapists training in EMDR, they're often hesitant to go out and start using it because change is is hard. And and you know, they question their own competency with the model, and um, am I doing it right? Or my goodness, I've only been doing this 10 minutes, and the client's in a fetal position on the couch. What do I do? You know, you you I think have to kind of uh get out of your own way too, and and realize that you do know what to do. You're you're not gonna you're not gonna break this person. You're not going to, you know, they may walk out feeling a little bit more shook up than they were before they're coming in, but that makes a lot of sense, you know, given the work that you're doing. And that can happen in talk therapy a lot as well, you know, that you walk out feeling a little a little shaken, a little angry, that probably means you got to something pretty good that day. Um, so yeah.
Repair In Therapy And Where To Find Scott
SPEAKER_00I tell clients during the informed consent process that if you like me every week, week after week, and you feel good after every therapy session, then I'm not doing my job.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And that is something for you know, my trainees, I have to remind them about that it's like your job is not to have them like you, like they have to trust you, you have to instill hope, they have to like know that you care about them so they come back, but it's not supposed to feel good all the time.
SPEAKER_02No, no, and and I think, you know, uh conversely, you know, what is healing for the client might be, you know, disclosure from a therapist's point of view of, you know, I was thinking about our last meeting, and I don't think I handled it the best way I should have for you. Um, and I think I could have done differently here. And and I I apologize to you because I I I was feeling like I didn't really serve that the way I could have. And you, you know, that's tremendously healing on both ends. And so a therapist can walk out of a session feeling crappy too. And you know, if you do your own work and you should do your own work, in my opinion, you talk about that with your own therapist and and try to work through it. And and I've always advised clients or I'm sorry, supervisees to use disclosure in session with you know with discretion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And if you feel like, you know, you misspoke or something felt awkward in a meeting, you know, revisit it and say, you know, how did this feel for you last week? Because I kind of felt a little off when we talked about that. And and it really goes places.
SPEAKER_00I I couldn't agree more. And I think that that's the real power of the therapy relationship is that it's not like any other relationship that a client has, but in some ways that's the gift, right? That it's like they may need the practice, they may need the modeling for another person to say, you know what, I thought about something from our past. And here's what I want to, I want to ask you how that went for you. I want to correct my mistake. I mean, there's so many powerful lessons in that that I couldn't agree more that talking with um, you know, young therapists or even for clients to like bring back to me, you know, when I had clients would be like, you know, last week when you said this, like I've really been thinking about it. It bothered me, it hurt my feelings. Like, I welcomed those sorts of conversations because it really just gave me so much more information.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, absolutely. And I think going back to our discussion about, you know, men in therapy, um, young men, adolescent males, whichever, it's really good modeling for, you know, a male therapist to show, you know, vulnerability and acknowledgement of, hey, I think I could have done this better, and let's, you know, let's figure out how to how to go about it. Or I I'm I'm relying on your feedback too. And so that's that's very powerful.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's so good. Oh, so good. Okay. Listen, I want to ask you like a thousand more questions, but for today, that feels like a good place to sort of like round out today. So can you fill folks in, share with folks um how they can follow you and get to know you and the work you're doing?
SPEAKER_02Sure, sure. The easiest way is my website, and that is www.mosaicpathwaycounseling.org. And mosaic is M-O-S-A-I-C, Pathway Counseling, all one word. And uh that's the that's the best way to to to sort of get a good cross section of me professionally, me personally, um, a look at my office, you know, all the stuff that's taken place here. I think it's a good one-stop shop for people.
SPEAKER_00I am so glad you shared. I will also put that in the show notes so people can just do a quick click. It might be just as easy for that too. So, folks who are listening, if you want to follow with Scott and um the work that he's doing, get curious about um anything that he's got coming up, would love for you to check that out. And I'm glad we got a chance to connect today. It was a really just such a good conversation, I think. Folks, I just think we need these reminders over and over. Um, these conversations over and over. I just think hearing them may resonate differently with someone today. And so I'm glad you were here to do that.
SPEAKER_02I'm so glad you you had me on today. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00I love it. All right, listener. Thank you for um listening until next time. Stay safe and stay well. Ciao.
