Ep177: You Can Teach Coping Skills and Still Struggle with Dr. Gerry Novak

The hardest part of being a helper isn’t learning the tools. It’s living them when your own life is loud, crowded, and messy. Beth sits down with psychologist and coach Dr. Gerry “Dr. Sunshine” Novak for a real conversation about why competent therapists, coaches, and high-achievers can still feel stuck in self-sabotage, overcommitment, and a constant hum of chaos. 

We dig into the pattern Gerry sees in himself: things finally calm down, then he fills the space with something that looks different but ends the same way. His “sweet tooth” metaphor makes it painfully clear how we swap one stressor for another and only recognize the pattern in hindsight. From leadership headaches to fixer habits, we talk boundaries, burnout, and the hidden cost of being addicted to feeling needed. 

Then we reframe self-compassion and stress management with a practical lens: the right amount of stress is the amount you can recover from. That single idea changes how you set goals, build routines, and choose commitments that support mental health instead of draining it. We also touch imposter syndrome, why credentials don’t quiet it, and how to create meaningful work anyway. 

If this resonates, share it with a helper who’s carrying too much, and please subscribe, leave a review, and tell us what boundary you’re practicing this week.

This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast

If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.

If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: Podcast Application Form

Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com

Transcript

Welcome And Real Life Noise

SPEAKER_01 0:13

All right, listeners, welcome back. I'm here for this room. This is Thanksgiving Therapy and Pleasure here. And um I need to say out loud, just in case you might hear things in the background here. I am actually planted in an empty classroom right now. So, Jerry, you can probably see all the things around me. And um, so if you hear children in the background, it is definitely um just the real life situation of two people recording a podcast in the middle of a situation. So I love uh doing interviews with guests. Jerry, you're no uh stranger to being here. You've come on before, and so I'm glad you said yes to being here today. And as we were kind of chatting, you know, when I invite folks to come on, I kind of ask them, you know, what do you want to talk about? What are you passionate about? And for all of us, I think, in the field, we have that which we are passionate about clinically, professionally. And I think we also have those things that we're passionate about as a person, as a human, right? And I think as I was hearing us think about where we were gonna go today, I actually hear both of these things kind of colliding together, that this is something that um clinically really matters, professionally really matters, and also personally, it kind of touches there. And so as we were preparing, I was just really getting excited about the kind of realness of what this conversation is gonna be. Every time you've come, it's been a very real conversation. And so I am excited, and to be fair, a little bit like, hmm, I wonder what both of us are gonna reveal about the uh chaos of our own lives. And this intro is getting longer, but I think early in my career, it would have terrified me to even think about having this conversation around the ways in which I didn't have it all together. I think, you know, we're probably gonna talk about this, but you know, many of my early narratives were around keeping it all together and don't let people know that you're struggling. And I think that that played out a lot in my early career and even still now, where I'm like, how would people want to send their person to see me as an expert if they know that I don't have it all together? And I put up this facade, and I think still there are moments where I do this. And so can you just introduce yourself to folks and tell us something fun that's going on for you lately or always?

Meet Dr. Jerry Sunshine Novak

SPEAKER_03 2:59

So I'm uh Jerry Novak. I'm a uh doctor of psychology. Um, I had the pleasure of going to school with with Beth. And you know, that was one of you talk about not having it all together. You try sitting next to Beth in any class, you will feel well aware of your limitations.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Oh, that is too kind. That is not true.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

It's true. It's true. But people call me Sunshine. Um, I teach at Pikes Peak State College, I teach psychology, and my students call me Dr. Sunshine. I'm in a motorcycle organization, and that's my road name. So as an academic, I specialize in areas of gender study, specifically masculinity and fatherhood. Clinically, I specialize mostly in sexual trauma and combat trauma. I developed a real interest, and this is an area I'm still very passionate about in post-traumatic growth. And um became very, very interested in how to facilitate post-traumatic growth. There's a lot of research on like when it happens organically, but I've never seen any literature on how to facilitate it. And uh, it seems to me that we have this weird apathetic acceptance of like, well, some people have post-traumatic growth and some people don't. And nobody has ever been like, well, let's see if we can create it, right? Let's see if we can. So I try to do that. I don't do therapy anymore. I got a little burned out on that, but I do coaching and I work with people in creating what I would think of as post-traumatic growth or a life of thriving. Um, in addition to being a psychologist, I'm also uh certified personal trainer and nutrition coach, and I have some some background in in personal finance. And so I try to take all those areas spiritually, financially, professionally, and help people that way holistically.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

So and what's fun going on in your life?

SPEAKER_03 4:53

I am

When Leadership Drains The Joy

SPEAKER_03 4:54

a member of a motorcycle organization, which is a lot of fun. We um it's bikers against child abuse, so we help advocate, you know, we help empower abused children to not be afraid. Um, so it's meaningful and it's purposeful, but we get to do it on motorcycles, which is fun. However, apropos of our topic, I have a real gift, I have a real talent for taking things that are fun and making them not fun.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Yeah, and so and it's funny because after it happens, I can always look back and I can see psychologically for me why I made the choices I made, but I can never see it on the way in.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

So, you know, so I am currently the president of our chapter, and you know, it has just it's a busy position and it's a lot of dealing with things that I would consider nonsense, you know, interpersonal conflicts and silly, what I think of as silly. Like to me, the whole organization is simple. You show up on a motorcycle and you help some kids, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Like it shouldn't be much more than that, but it feels like that would be at the heart of it, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:06

But anytime you get groups of people together, yeah, it's true, drama and chaos. And so I spend so much of my time on drama and chaos, and so little of my time on actually empowering children. So it's it has, I mean, I hate to say it because I don't want to discourage anybody else. Some people, um, the guy before me who was in this position was great at it. He did a great job at it, and he was really good, and he seemed to love it. Um, for me, it has kind of sucked the joy out of a lot of of what we do.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Okay, so this is kind of the lead-in to where we are thinking that, you know, I I'm having two thoughts here, right?

The Fear Of Not Having It

SPEAKER_01 6:46

So again, I I mentioned earlier, like early in my career, I got a hold of a book called Bad Therapy. Master therapists share their worst failures. And I was really drawn to this, I think for that same reason. Like this fear of making mistakes was real in me. And I'm, I mean, honestly, that fear of making mistakes is probably still in me. I I really value so much this work and want to do it well and do it with honor. Um, but I have to tell you, like, I I don't want to speak badly about authorship in any kind of way, but it just left me like really still feeling like it didn't really paint the picture for me of these people. Do they really mess up in the ways that I'm gonna really mess up? Yeah, either clinically or in my own life. And so I think that's what we want to talk about a little bit today. Um, and whether it's uh about mess ups or it's about chaos or it's about, you know, our own ability to do the things that we know to keep us on track. I don't know. I just think that this conversation is not happening. Yeah. And I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Yeah. And I'll say professionally, I've been a combination of hard work and luck has culminated. I don't think I've done bad therapy. Um I I I can look back to when I was a newer therapist and think of instances where I probably should have done some things differently.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

But I don't think I've created disasters in the therapy room. And I like to believe that I've actually really helped some people. I mean, I've I've received some emails years later from from clients saying their lives were changed, and that's always very rewarding. And and and to a less like dramatic extent, you know, I uh instead of bad therapy, if you read like Irvin Yallam, who's super famous, oh yeah, he he at least wonders, right? He he talks about how his patients may have been doing better when they ended therapy, but how are they doing now, right? Like did this therapy have any lasting impact or because you never know, right? You don't fuck up, and so I think that's truer. And I and I'll say so my thought when we were planning this conversation is less about doing bad work with other people, yeah, but my apparent inability to apply the good work to my own life, true, you know. Um for example, like you know, I'm I still am a certified personal trainer, but that's where I started before I was a therapist. I was a trainer. And you know, I'm listening I'm tend to be very strong. Um, I'm fairly athletic, I have good dexterity and good balance, but you know, working in a gym, I've never been the leanest guy. I've never had six pack abs or been ripped or anything like that. Um, and it's uh and a big piece of that is a a certain piece of that is I choose not to because it requires a great deal of sacrifice in your life. And I'm just not willing to make that sacrifice. I'm not a competitive bodybuilder, I'm not gonna get up on stage. But there's also a history of self-sabotaging behaviors every time I start to make some progress, you know, I do I make a decision that derails me, you know, and and but at the same time, I've trained Olympians, you know, I've trained um people recovering from strokes, I've trained pregnant women through their pregnancies, um, and successfully, you know. I've trained Olympic rowers, I worked with an Olympic wrestler for a little while. So I I clearly was able to help other people, you know. Um I trained actually one of my more interesting clients was um uh you remember the actor Christopher Reeves, who died back in the yeah, yeah. So Superman, right? Um, I trained his mom. And at 75 years old, I trained her to row in the head of the Charles in Massachusetts, you know. So I have some some cool success stories, um, but I've been much apparently much better at assisting others in achieving lofty goals than I have in achieving them myself.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

I am grateful for your vulnerability in um sharing this, and I'm curious, you know, what insight do you draw from you know, kind of realizing this? You know, it's it sounds to me like this hasn't been something that you have just realized about yourself this morning, but that over time this has been yeah, something that you have been like, why can I do such a good job with other people?

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So the the fault you just can't get it together, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Right. And and so the and by the way, uh let me be fair and start by saying, I'm way better now than I used to be. Like I in my early adulthood in my 20s and and maybe early 30s, I was a real mess, you know, a real disaster. And so I'm a lot better than I used to be, but but not where where I want. And the thought process that that brought me here was we were scheduled to meet a few weeks ago to do this this episode.

The Chaos Pattern And Sweets Metaphor

SPEAKER_03 12:22

And you, you know, you ask guests for suggestions for topics. And a few weeks ago, the morning we were going to record this, I woke up in the morning and had a sick kid and had to keep him home from school and and had to reschedule with you. And you were very gracious and kind about that. And after we rescheduled, it occurred to me that the last time I was on your podcast was maybe two, two and a half years ago. And I had to reschedule that one too, because the day we were gonna record a pipe burst in my house and I had a leak that morning, I had water dripping down from the ceiling. And while neither one of those things is technically my fault, just using those two data points, right? And two data points could be a coincidence. You never know, could be a coincidence. You never know. But with those two data points, you could say, listen, if you and I scheduled a one-hour discussion two and a half years apart, and on both days that we were gonna meet, I had some chaos in my life that caused me to reschedule that maybe I just live in this constant state of chaos. And I mean, I could conduct a whole real study, you know. We were trained like racehorses to do research in grad school. Um, but just qualitatively, that checks out. I mean, that's my experience of my life, and some people thrive in that. I hate chaos. Um, I like peace and I like calm. And there's been only like one episode in my life where for a few years I was able to achieve that. And I still it was in my 20s, and I refer to it still as the happiest period in my entire life. Um, but it's does seem like every time I start to free up a little room and a little breathing space in my room, and a little breathing room in my life, I somehow immediately find a way to fill it with something. And um, you know, that's what happened with being the president of the motorcycle organization. Like so and I do this in different areas. I do this in my relationships, I do this as a parent, I do this professionally. And uh the the way it made sense in my mind, and I was telling you this before we started recording, uh the way it made sense in my mind is like if you imagine somebody who has diabetes, right? And they're insulin resistant, and uh maybe they've never had ice cream before and they encounter ice cream for the first time. It's like they uh, you know, maybe gorge themselves on ice cream and start eating a lot of it. And and the difficulty is the first couple of bites of ice cream are not gonna make you sick. But after you engage in sort of a years-long relationship with your ice cream, your health starts to deteriorate, right? And and it may take a few months or a year or a couple of years to put the pieces together and be like, oh, my health is suffering because of the ice cream, like clearly, right? So then you go through this months-long process of figuring out how to get out of the ice cream habit, right? How to get off the ice cream, and you finally sort that out and you stop eating ice cream and you start to feel better, and your health starts to improve. And and maybe you even start to, you know, get some exercise and get a little more careful with your diet, and you're feeling really good. And somewhere down the line, you encounter chocolate cake for the first time, and you've never had that before. And it's clearly not ice cream, right? It's definitely different, it's something different. And so you get into this years-long relationship with chocolate cake, and now your health starts to fail again, and and you start to have these issues and these difficulties, and maybe it takes a few months, maybe you can't figure out why this is happening because it's not ice cream. So, why would this happen? And then you put the pieces together. Oh, it's the chocolate cake. And so you go on this months-long process of you know breaking up with the chocolate cake or quitting the habit or whatever it is, and you get sober from the chocolate cake, and then you know, you're feeling better and your health's improved, and you you swear, like never again, never again, and then you encounter cookies for the first time, right? And and at each point, it's like hard to predict that that's gonna affect your health so badly because it's not like the last thing, yeah. Right. But if you look closely enough, all of those things have something in common. And that's what's right. And and it's your history, your illness, your diabetes, whether it's type one or type two, that makes you incompatible with these things, but somehow they end up being the things you're drawn to. And so for me, whether it's busying up my time or whether it's chaos, or whether it's some history in my relationships or personal relationships or other, you know, professional relationships, somehow I, you know, on the way in, uh, everything always looks to me like I'm doing things differently. Like I'm using coping skills, like I'm experimenting with new ways of being, all the therapy phrases, right? Uh and then uh a few years down the road, I'm like, oh my God, like only with hindsight, only looking back can I tell, like, oh that's the same effing thing. You know, and it did it's the same sheep in, it's the same wolf just in sheep's clothing. Yeah, and I didn't, and it's tied to, and I hate saying this because it's such a cliche, but it's tied to childhood garbage, and it's tied to you know my own conditions of worth and self-esteem problems and and imposter complex and all this kind of thing. And um and it's tied to all that, and I see how like I can see looking back how those things intersected to make whatever thing feel appealing to me, but then it it ends up creating the life I I specifically don't want anymore.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah. Oh, this is so good. I mean, I love a great metaphor. And as you were as you were talking, I was thinking, okay, so in your experiences, how have you been able to identify the the theme of those things? Right. Because we have to identify the theme before we can really begin making better or healthier adjustments instead of just switching from one new trial thing to the other that are all in that same theme, right? Would is that what you would say? Like that would be the like the first step to knowing.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

So let me be honest. And the answer is I don't know. I haven't figured this out yet. Because if I had, my life would look very different than it does.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Just as a psychologist, shouldn't we just have it all together? I mean, I think that that that that's what people think, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:22

Well, so what's funny is people think two things generally, I think, about psychologists that are incompatible. The first thing is did you do that? All of a sudden, balloons. Yeah, you held up two fingers. Oh my goodness, and now a thumbs up.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

The automatic emojis happened in Zoom like the two fingers like a peace sign, and and Zoom thought it was a party, and so balloons started flying up all around it.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Anyway, two things that people think about as well.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Two people think that a psychologist that uh if you think through them, that right there, Beth, is the perfect metaphor for what I'm talking about. That's exactly and my kids will tell you that the thing I hate most on planet Earth is probably balloons.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

So funny. I mean, it's just like all of a sudden, how did this happen?

SPEAKER_03 20:11

You know, and that is like just the little AI monster in Zoom is listening to what I'm saying and being like, let's give them a sample. Like, let's because that's exactly like I'm just sitting here talking, and now there's stuff in my screen, right? Like, that's exactly how it works. So the two things people believe about psychologists that if you really think them through shouldn't fit together.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

The first is that we have it all together, right? Yeah, the same way you believe that like every personal trainer should be in incredible shape, which first of all doesn't make sense because if that were the case when it comes to the Olympics or professional sports, it wouldn't be the athletes competing, it would be their trainers. Right. Um, but the second thing people believe, which has got some truth to it, is that folks who go into the mental health field do so to figure out their own garbage. Right? We no very few healthy people with wonderful childhoods go into the mental health field. And so so, yes, we come in with all of this, but but those two ideas shouldn't really exist together. Like, oh, you come into this this field of study because you're kind of a disaster, right? Or you're kind of a mess or whatever happened to you. And you should have it all together.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah. Like you should have figured it all out.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Yeah, so so I haven't figured it all out, but I'm starting to get some insights, one of which seems obvious, but it's it's always obvious on the way out. The view on the way out is always different than the view on the way in. The one insight that should seem obvious is that instead of trying to choose the correct sweets, right? Instead of like, oh, I can't have ice cream anymore, okay, well, I can't have chocolate cake anymore, well, I can't have cookies anymore. What I really should be working on is my own sweet tooth. Right? It's not, it's not them. It's not the outside factor. It's not the motorcycle organization. It's not the job. It's not the family. It's not the partners. It's not the friends. It's me.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah.

Being Needed As A Condition Of Worth

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Right? It's me. And because of some of my personal history, which is, you know, I mean, we don't, we don't compare pain, we don't compare trauma, but you know, I mean, I've had some. And certainly there are people in the world have had it far, far worse than I have. But you know, I I have some scars from from growing up. And um and so I I do recognize that I am enamored. I get easily intoxicated with feeling wanted, feeling needed, important, being able to help, right? Um, and and that's that's a common factor that gets me into trouble. My time gets filled up because I get so drunk on, hey, like I really need your help, that I can't I can't say no, you know, and I think, oh, this won't be that bad, and I'll help this person out, and it'll be short and quick, and then it turns into a major commitment. Or hey, we want you to be president of our chapter of this organization, or you know, hey, we would like you to be flight commander when I was in the military, you know. Um, and and so a big piece of it is that, and the problem, one of the problems I'm recognizing is that when you are a fixer, right? When you are a giver, a doer, um, which by the way, like so socially in our culture, we have this thing that like it's very noble to be a giver or to be a but the problem is it it it if it comes from a healthy place, it can be fine, right? Nothing in and of itself is terrible, but for me, it doesn't come from a healthy place, it comes from a condition of worth, comes from the idea that I'm only worthy of being wanted, included, or loved if I am doing something to earn it, right? And if I'm not doing something to earn it, if heaven forbid I'm sick or I'm injured or I'm just exhausted and I don't have it to give, then it means I am unworthy of being loved or desired, which I'm sure you know, but maybe people listening don't. Um and so it's this panicked need to feel worthy of being wanted and included that makes me be a giver. Um, and and the problem with that is that you end up uh attaching yourself to people who are uh like chronically in need. And that's a uh not a great long-term recipe, you know, it feels good initially because they need something and you help them and they're grateful and you feel loved and wanted and it all works, but oh you know, fast forward a decade and it becomes very toxic. And so I know there are healthy people out in the world who are not in constant need. The problem is I can't be at peace around them because if they don't need me, like what am I gonna do to be worthy of them wanting me?

SPEAKER_01 25:29

I mean, that's powerful, uh Jerry.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

I mean, and and like intellectually and from my education and what I've told a a million other people is you should be wanted just because you exist, right? Like you have worth just because you are. Yeah, but you shouldn't have to do anything to earn it. Yeah, but I I just can't digest that for some reason. I haven't been able to until now. Like I'm working on it, but I haven't been able to digest that. And I've done I've done uh 25 years of therapy, I've done EMDR for, you know, uh on and off of over a decade. I've even done a hero's dose of psilocybin and done a guided psychedelic journey, you know. And each one of those things helped me make progress, but none of them fully cleaned up the mess, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Well, you know, it's interesting as you're talking. Many people go into this field because they are kind of naturally helpers or naturally want to be, you know, walking alongside somebody in their journey. And so as you're talking, I'm like, you know, it's probably that thing that does make you a great helper in a professional sense, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:40

Personal trainer, therapist, right? Like every career.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Every career you've had has like started and been a part of this core need or desire or value. But I think that might be what, as I just said those words, that might be what you're kind of saying. Is this a core value? Is it a core need, a core desire, or is it this unhealthy overcompensation of and that's gotta be really hard to tease out, right? Because you have to be a gifted helper to do well in this field. But then it's like, where does that stop professionally? And then self-sabotage picks up personally.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Yeah. What it makes me think of, what it brings to mind for me is when I was in my master's program, I had to go and observe. Um, I was learning about addictions and and treatment for addictions, and I had to go and observe uh several of the anonymous 12-step group programs. And I went to lots of them. I went to AA, I went to NA, I went to GA, I went to right. The the I don't want to say worst, but the the like the hardest one to sit through, the one that like broke my heart was OA, was overeaters anonymous because you can live without alcohol, right? You know alcohol's poison, don't touch it. You can live without narc narcotics. Okay, narcotics are poison, don't touch it. You can live without gambling, right? But you can't live without food. And so those folks were in this constant state of like, how do I know when I'm legitimately hungry and eat enough to satisfy that hunger and take care of my survival needs and have, you know, heaven forbid, even maybe enjoy a meal, versus when I'm engaging in in you know, compulsive type behavior. And that's where it is for me, right? It's like, if I I mean, I could just cut it off and not be a helper at all and just you know, go be a stockbroker or something and you know, drive a Lamborghini and screw everybody else. Um, but that's not really my nature either. And so it's like, how do you reel it in just enough? So it's in the sweet spot.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

I I mean, seriously, you know, I think that that is at the heart of the question. And I wanted to come back to something you said earlier that struck me that you, you know, you were talking about how your life has kind of been these continuous chaos moments, right? And that you had this distinct period of time. And and the way you described it was that I was able to achieve. So you're saying like I was able to achieve this distinct period of time.

SPEAKER_03 29:36

And I think there are some folks able to achieve fell ass backward into, you know, I mean, I wasn't by design.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

That's I I think that's the heart of kind of my curiosity around that, because I do think I think there are folks who live in this place of like, well, you know, all kinds of things have happened to me and all kinds of things continue to happen to me. And so I don't have control over the things that I can't control, and so my life is a constant state of chaos. I think there is a whole bunch of other people that would step right on into the self-compassion trend. And listen, I love self-compassion, right? So I'm not upset about the self-compassion trend, but I think there would be a whole bunch of people that would then step right on into that. And so I'm just curious about this. Like, I think we are in a constant state of seeking homeostasis. I think our bodies, I mean, well, we know the science tells us our bodies are constantly seeking homeostasis at a physiological level. But it feels like the conversation we're having is that achieving psychological homeostasis, emotional homeostasis is so hard. I mean, I I I wanted to think about what word I wanted to use to describe how hard that is, and so hard isn't enough, but I don't know what else I would place there.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Yeah, maybe brutal.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, I mean, I wanted to say impossible. Yeah, it's not impossible, it's not impossible, but it feels very close to having this like longevity, that that longevity of homeostasis.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

Well, and see, I don't know that that's a reality. I think of it as aspirational.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

I have the same point of view about closure. I don't think that closure really exists. I think we spend our life approaching it, and then something happens and we change, and our relationship to our trauma or whatever changes, and then we have to reapproach it, and then something changes. But the the the issue for me isn't, I don't mind that so much. The issue isn't like, okay, I'm approaching closure and something happens and I come away from it, and then I start to approach it. My problem is I start approaching it and then something happens, and like I'm all the way to the other end of the spectrum, right? Yeah, and so so I think that's the issue.

Discipline As Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_03 32:06

I mean, you mentioned self-compassion. I'm with you, I'm I'm a fan of self-compassion, but not but and you know, yeah, Kristen Neff, who's the self-compassion guru, you know, she even has tender self-compassion and fierce self-compassion. And I believe deeply that discipline is a form of self-compassion. You know, I I don't think self-compassion is all bubble baths and massages. Um, I think it can be that can be part of it, but I I think getting up early in the morning and getting to the gym is self-compassion. Yeah, I think getting to bed at a reasonable time, no matter what's on Netflix, is self-compassion. I think educating yourself is self-compassion. And and the evidence for that to me is anecdotal, right? It's like, do I discipline my children? I do. Do I discipline other people's children like at their school? Not really. Why? Because I love my children, right? That's why I give them discipline. And so I think the same is true for self-relationships, you know. I think discipline is a piece of that. And so I agree with you. I'm all for self-compassion. I just don't think it always has to look like softness and and apathy, and right, I think there's a time for rest and rest. And by the way, that's true of everything. That's true of fitness, that's true of emotional health. Like, you know, when I teach at the college here and I teach a section in stress and health, the fact of the matter, you know, the two points I try to make to my students, the first is that if you lived in a zero stress environment, you would die. We can't survive without stress. And so then the question becomes, okay, well, what's the right amount of stress? Right. And stress, by the way, by definition, the definition of a stressor is a stimulus that knocks you out of homeostasis. And then your stress response is the method by which your body returns to homeostasis. And that's vital for survival, right? It has to happen. Yeah. So the right, what's the right amount of stress then? Right? Because everybody thinks stress is bad for you, stress is bad for you. What's the right amount? The right amount is the amount from which you can recover.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

And that's how even high-level fitness trainers work with their athletes. You don't design a workout based on how much you can do, you base the workout on how much you can effectively recover from. And as your ability to recover improves, then you can do more and more and more. But if you have a super hard workout and you can't sit down for six days, I mean, look at whoever, look at Michael Jordan, look at Mike Tyson, look at LeBron James. They have to be in remarkable physical condition. They have to work out way harder than you or I ever do, but they can't afford to be sore or crippled or wiped out from their workouts. They have to be able to get on the court or in the ring and perform. And the way to do that is to base the workouts, exercise is a stressor, it's a self-induced stressor. And you have to be able to prescribe the stressor based on your ability to recover, so that if you work out on Sunday and you have to play an NBA game on Wednesday, you're not so stiff you can't move. But you still have remarkable results.

Stress You Can Actually Recover From

SPEAKER_03 35:34

So as we are rounding up here, here's what something I'm really good at helping other people with, by the way. I I mean terrible at doing for myself.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Here's here's here's where I am, here's where I am kind of relating this in my own life because and I'm I'm curious about kind of some of your last thoughts that maybe we didn't get up. You know, as you're describing this idea, I love this idea of like how much stress is enough, and the answer is not how many hours in a day we have, it's how much can I take on and still be able to recover, which for me means like I can still function at a great level, right? I don't want to just survive tomorrow, I want to show up as like the best version of who I am tomorrow. And so here's what happens to me a lot of times is I will take on a new quote self-care practice. I want to just barf about this, or I I take on a new, you know, betterment of myself practice. For example, right? Like losing weight, running a mini marathon. This is real life for me. And the problem is that taking on such a stressor of I've gotta prepare for a mini marathon, I've gotta, you know, focus on nutrition and water and sleep and all the things like that.

SPEAKER_03 37:11

All of which are recovery factors.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

That is another major focus that when I I already don't have time, I don't have extra time to then take on something that takes lots of extra time. And so I and then I'm like, well, why have I not trained for my mini marathon? So I think I really appreciate this sort of um additional way of thinking about why we quit things or why we can't stick to things, why our life feels like I can't meet my goals, or my life is always chaotic, or I'm too busy, or I haven't seen my best friends and I know I need them in six weeks.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

Well, and and my issue isn't that I don't commit or that I don't follow through. My issue is I still take on too much, but to my own detriment, I yeah refuse to quit. And so yeah, so I'm I'm way more stressed than I what I can recover from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Okay. Any last um any last thoughts you have on this on this topic before we say goodbye?

Imposter Syndrome And Creating Content

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Um there's one last thought if we have the time for it. Um I just wanted to mention you brought to mind something you said earlier, brought to mind a conversation I had with a friend. And and it's a friend, unfortunately, I haven't seen or talked to in quite a while, just because life, you know. But um, he's a really good guy. Um uh he's got a podcast. So this is a guy who was in the army. He went to West Point, he was an officer in the 82nd Airborne, had a great career. And after the army, he um realized he had some emotional stuff going on. He he is short-tempered and stressed and whatever. And he he learned about a little bit about a EQ, about emotional intelligence. And it was very helpful for him. And so now he has a business. He calls himself the EQ Gangster, which is a great name. And that's his uh his his podcast is the EQ Gangster. And and what he does is he coaches high-level performers, high-level executives and military leaders and things on how to bring EQ into their leadership. And I had a conversation with him once because I also have this imposter complex thing. And I'm always afraid, like I feel like I need to lead with my credentials so that people know they can believe me. And so I want to lead with the fact that I'm a doctor of psychology, I want to leave with the fact that I'm a personal trainer, I want to leave with the fact that I'm a nutritionist, I want to leave with the fact that I was a field grade officer in the military and I've had leadership training. And he's not even an expert on EQ. Like, I mean, he's good at what he does, he's great at what he does. Listen to his podcast, he's fantastic. Uh, his name is Noble Gibbons, by the way. He's amazing. And I adore the guy. But he even said to me in a conversation once, he's like, I don't know half as much about this stuff as you do, which is probably true. And I'm not an expert on EQ, right? But it doesn't matter. People don't care. They care about what I can do for them, how I make them feel, if I can help them. And he's absolutely right. And whenever I decide to try to create content or do anything like that, I just can't trust that that's what's true. And so what ends up happening is I end up, that's the one thing I end up, I end up quitting things that are for me. I don't quit things I say I'll do for other people. I don't resign positions, I don't not follow through on commitments, except to myself.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Because I the overwhelming thing that gets me is I go to create some content, and I'm like, ah, who's gonna want to hear what I have to say? Or like, what if what if they don't realize that I actually know what I'm talking about? Or, you know, and and so that you said something earlier, and I wish I could remember exactly what you said, but it spurred that thought. And this conversation with Noble about the EQ gangster is the perfect example. Between the two of us, I'm probably technically more qualified to base a business on EQ, but he's successful at it.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

Yeah. And he's amazing at it, he's great at it.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

I will definitely link um to that in the show notes. And how can I link people to the work you're doing? Tell folks about um how they can find you.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Yeah, well, I can give you some social media, how they find me. And uh, so I have Instagram, one is biker psychologist, and the other one, Jerry underscore Novak and O-V-A-C-K. On TikTok, I'm not real active on TikTok, but I do have an account under Biker Psychologist. And then on Facebook, I have um Jerry Sunshine Novak. And last but not least, here's another thing I'm trying to wrap myself around. I do a lot of writing and I love to write. And I've always dreamed about writing a book. I've published articles and I've published book chapters, but I would like to write a book. And I was listening to a different podcast at some point, and um somebody said, Why don't you just open a substack? You know, if you want to write a book, just open a substack and commit to writing like 500 words a day. I didn't even know what Substack was, I had to look it up, but I did open a Substack and I I haven't quite started yet, but I'm thinking about posting some of my writing samples and and maybe writing some new content, maybe recording some new content for that and just doing it, just doing it and force myself and just do it. Um, and so that's also Jerry Sunshine Novak on substacks. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Amazing.

Where To Find Jerry And Closing

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Well, listen, I am glad you said yes to being here, even amidst the chaos that is both of our lives. And uh I am just grateful for the conversation. I know that um these processes are just so important to talk about because they're invisible, right? Like people don't see uh the struggle. I mean, of therapists or psychologists for sure, but also I think just of people, you know. I think we don't see the way other people struggle. And so I love being able to talk about these processes, and I'm glad that you said yes to to being here.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Well, me too. I value our friendship a great deal, and I appreciate you. And I think what you do is is really meaningful and important. And I I would gamble anything that you um contribute more value than you know to people's lives. So thank you for what you do.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Thanks for saying that. I um I try to hold on to that, uh, knowing that sometimes I have all the same thoughts that you described, right? Where it's like sometimes I actually just admitted this yesterday in a workshop I was giving that I was like, you know, that that imposter syndrome is real. And so to be like, someday people are gonna be like, I don't know why I keep listening to her, you know. I just think, and even if it's one person who relates to any of the stories or the metaphors or the helpfulness that you bring, that any guest brings that I bring, then I think it's worthwhile.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Yeah, if one person was helped, I could retire on that.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

I know. I mean, truly, I it does, you know. I think we're always looking for more impact, more impact, more impact. But really at the end of the day, we're we're starting with this idea of one person in a therapy room, and that's where we started. And I think that that could be where we stayed. So anyway, all right, y'all. Thank you for listening. And until next time, stay safe and stay well. Ciao.